12 earned runs in 18 innings since, sweet.
In all seriousness, do you really think that throwing 133 pitches two weeks ago is responsible for him being crappy last night? Is that realistic? He didnt injure himself that night, so how come you don’t think he managed to recover since then? He doesn’t strike me as the fragile type, easily-tired-out type.
oh boy. here we go.
Sam, I don’t think it’s entirely to blame for last night, but any uneeded stress on a pitcher that early in the season isn’t a good idea and can have a lasting effect, no matter who the guy is.
Call it a hunch.
i still have to wonder the point of this. i can’t argue with the numbers before and after the 133. nobody can. but what should be done now? fire tito? put schilling on limited innings? schilling said before the season started that he wanted to pitch like 3000 innings this season. he clearly talked tito into letting him come back out, just like he talked tek into whatever the hell pitch he hung up for a-rod to belt last night. it’s true that as the manager, tito should have put his foot down, but a lot of this is due to schilling being unwilling to recognize his age and limitations as well, imho.
a lot of this is due to schilling being unwilling to recognize his age and limitations as well
I don’t dispute Schilling’s egomania, but no, this is not due to Schilling being unwilling to recognize his age and limitations. There is only one person responsible for risking Schilling’s abilities by letting him throw 133 pitches, and that’s Francona. That is the manager’s responsibility, to manage, nobody else’s.
End of story.
When was the last time Tito made a coaching move that won us the game? The only great move he’s made this year is using Paps as the closer – but I’m sure Tito had no idea how good he’d be. I’m really struggling to remember anything else.
However, I clearly remember bonehead moves:
PHing Snow instead of WMP two weeks ago b/c of L/R nonsense (WMP batted only slightly worse against LHP than RHP last year, but still better than Snow did) -> K.
Starting Harris last night, and then letting our 9th go Harris-AGon-Youk when we have WMP, Mirabelli, Mohr on the bench. Any of those guys are better options that Harris or AGon. Result -> 1-2-3 Ninth. Hell, I’d let Seanez bat in the 9th before Harris.
The “defensive lineup” that he ran out there when Wake pitched early in the season which had a murderer’s row of Mohr-Cora-Snow-Bard! Yield -> 1 run in 2 games in which Wake pitched 17innings.
And of course 133.
Anyone have insight as to why Tito’s managing like such a fool?
(So much for the 5 year grace period)
Sean: Tito drives me nuts lots of times. And I think the 133 pitch outing was idiotic and potentially damaging (in fact, damage might already have been done if you are of the opinion that Schilling’s latest efforts are directly related to post-133 fatigue). And I also agree that Francona has done a very poor job in isolated games with lineups that make me seethe. But I also think Francona has done many good things, and that the Sox aren’t likely to find anything remotely approaching Tito out there. There is no reason to fire him. But I wish I knew that someone had the same conversations with Tito that we have here, that there was some confidence that Francona won’t keep making the same mistakes. I think that’s the worst part: not knowing if Francona has any clue that he’s made visibly dumb mistakes and that he’s confronted those mistakes and is not willing to make them again.
He’s done some really good things and been rewarded (giving Loretta the green light against the Unit, pitching out last week against the Yanks, and probably lots of other little things that we never even notice), and we shouldn’t forget that the Sox are basically see-sawing between 1st and 2nd place, no small feat. So Tito isn’t going anywhere, nor should he. But I would love to know why he does some of the things he does and I would also love to know that he’s going to stop doing some of those things.
(then again, if he lets Curt throw 120+ pitches again in the next two weeks I might change my mind…)
I seem to remember some talk of Yankee excuses. This seems like #2 from Soxland, right after the Crisp injury.
It’s not an excuse, Nate. It’s speculation over why Schilling has been bad. An excuse would be “the Sox would have been really good if Schilling just hadn’t thrown so many pitches that night” (which I am not saying) or “the Sox lost last night because Schilling threw 133 pitches in Cleveland” (also, not saying that either). I am not trying to explain why the team didn’t win the game last night (the reason? they didn’t deserve to, the Yankees did everything better), I am speculating (and speculated the night of that game in Cleveland, which is a key factor in shooting down this “excuse” accusation) that Schilling throwing so many pitches might have a detrimental effect on his pitching. It certainly looks to me like it has.
I hear you loud and clear SF. I can’t resist the urge sometimes. It could be that Schill is just as stubborn in some aspects as RJ. It seems that Torre is more likely to march to his own drummer than TF (success rate is still up in the air). I guess it’s the bull/horns you get with a veteran SP.
Has any manager let any other pitcher throw anything close to 133 pitches this year?
Couldn’t find the single-game pitch counts, but according to ESPN.com, the only guy who is averaging more pitches/game than Schilling (110/game) is Jason Schmidt (110.9). Aaron Harang is next (107.8), but in the AL, the next guys after Schilling are Kazmir (106.8), Contreras (105.5 and now on the DL), Vasquez (105.5…Ozzie likes his starters), and I think Danny Haren (104.1). This doesn’t address the whole one-game burnout question, exactly, but it does seem like Schilling has been throwing a lot of pitches. Which, frankly, is great, and I hope his arm goes completely and permanently numb sometime in early June.
Incidently, Moose is tops for the Yanks with 100.4 pitches per game so far.
Spidey, all those starters are having good years. My guess, given the relatively small sample of starts we’re dealing with, is that there’s a connection between these pitch totals and the number of quality starts each has had. Johnson’s number is probably down compared to these guys because he keeps on getting taken out in the 4th and 5th innings. Yet, Schilling’s number is pretty high with that factored in. Yea!
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