To everyone, SF and YF alike: it’s April.
I was at the Sat and Sun games, just unreal, so much fun. The Sat game was my 4 month old nephew’s first Red Sox game, which was cool, mostly for my brother and I because no chance the kid will remember any of it. I think we took about 1000 pictures.
The 4 HRs in a row we’re an amazing thing to see at Fenway. Fun fact for those that didn’t know it, the last time it happened in MLB, like 100 years ago, Terry Francona’s dad hit one of them.
That’s right, I forgot… April wins are counted half of September wins in figuring the final standings. Silly me!
Ah, the surefire “it’s april” comeback to all things baseball. They still count, no matter which team gets them, but you’re right, there is a lot of time left to get things straight. Boston really needs to address that bullpen situation.
Hah, you mean the Yankees, and it’s not for lack of quality. Igawa, Wang and Pettitte just each need to go 7 innings. For each of their next 3 starts. And also Rivera NEEDS to pitch today, no matter what. Even if they’re winning 10-0, or losing 3-14.
I’m sick of hearing this. How many times would just one more win have saved a team?
If you’re going to take this mentality, why even watch the games? Let’s wait until August. Evidently, all the real baseball starts then.
Spot on, Hudson. If we would’ve won one more April game in 2005, we would’ve taken the division. Every single game counts.
How about this- if games in the first month of the season don’t matter, do A(pril)-Rod’s stats in this young season also not matter?
I think you guys are all taking SF the wrong way, I’m fairly certain he’s not trying to say the games don’t count, I think he wants us to keep them in perspective regarding our reactions. The season is not over, so the bridge jumping, parade planning and taunting from both sides is silly at this point.
What the hell was Mo doing out in the 8th? I said the same about Paps during that Cleveland series, and the same here.. is that really necessary?
Otherwise, I think at least ARod proved that he can hit the Sox.. just have to prove that he can do that in a different month!
It’s April doesn’t mean it doesn’t count, it just means that, there’s plenty of time for things to go right (or go wrong), and obviously if Yanks loses the division by 2, 3 games.
But obviously both teams still control their own destiny! (Remember last year, I think the Sox won the first 4 out of 5 or something, and then lost the next 9 out of 10, including the so called Boston Massacre.. I’m too lazy to check up the numbers, since they don’t add up to 19 games..)
As a YF, just taking the obvious positives – we were able to score runs. And the negatives we already know about – pitching. I don’t know if I would be concerned about Mo yet, but AP pitched a good game, and the hitting worked against a “top tier pitching” – the Big Three. Just as the SF are selectively saying Beckett retired 15 of 16 in a row (or something like that)!
Of course, if you have won one more game in September in 2005, _knowing_ that it matters, then you would’ve also took the division.
Every game matters, but obviously there’s enough time to catch up, which is what the it’s April means..
If Karstens and Wright were actually going to be a long-term part of our rotation, I’d be a lot more worried.
It’ll be good to see more major league pitchers than otherwise pitching for the Yankees soon.
I may be overanalyzing things, but did A-Rod look like he was flailing at anything last night? It seemed, to my completely untrained eye, that he expanded his strike zone all night by swinging at pitches out of the zone.
Anyone else think he’s about to go on a stretch of “tryin’ too hard”?
He looked like his 2006 self in an at-bat from Matsuzaka, when he pitched A-Rod all outside.
I wouldn’t expect him to get in a rut though, because on his next at bat he hit a nice single. In 2006 he would have started flailing even more desperately.
I think its possible but I also think that DiceK made his best pitches of the game during A-rods ABs. He had a good AB vs. Papelbon who ultimately prevailed.
I think SF’s comment is right on. This is the least upset I have been about a Yankee loss to the Sox in a long while. Not that Im happy about it and while these games may come back to haunt us at the end of the year, Im happy to have 5+ months to work off a 4 game defecit. A series sweep in Sept or say late August would be much more devastating. I am taking solace in the fact that the yankees could have easily won any of those 3 games. The Sox certainly deserve Kudos for executing when they needed to.
The offense got them through the starting pitching problems Yankee fans were all afraid of – 17 runs in 3 games. Wright gave up 4 home runs on 4 pitches and Karstens was not ready to pitch, it looked like. But they overcame that, only to be let down by our vaunted bullpen.
FIVE runs from our Hall of Famer! A seventh inning lead handed to Proctor, who gave it right back. I know the bullpen is better than that.
That’s no knock against the Red Sox hitters, who did what they had to.
Obviously games count the same no matter when they are played in the season. That’s not the point here.
The point is, with 145 games left in the season, a 3 game sweep isn’t exactly cause for excessive mourning or celebration. We’ve all seen teams get way out far ahead early in the season, only to dribble back into second or third place by the end of the summer.
Yes, these three wins count just as much as the last three games the Yanks and Sox will play against each other this season. But it’s much easier to make up three losses now than it is in September.
Pedroia saved last night’s game. The little dude came up huge in the 8th…
Lockland is right. By no means am I saying these games are worth 1/2, or 1/3, or any fraction of games in August or September. But a sweep in mid-September means a three game shift in the standings with only 10% of the games remaining, while this weekend we saw a sweep with 90% of the games remaining. The games are, no matter their equivalent value in the grand scheme of things, qualitatively different. Excessive celebration (or extreme pessimism) by fans of either ilk seems to me to be the wrong attitude.
Man, three nationally televised games — and each one of them the very definition of heart-attack baseball. I haven’t had that much fun watching baseball in a long time.
I’ll tell you one thing. It might only be April, but Joe Torre was managing that game like it was September.
Man, three nationally televised games…
Unless you find yourself in the unfortunate location of Southern California. Let me tell you, that Cubs- Cards game on Sat. was riveting…
Have I mentioned that I hate Fox?
I will be excessively celebrating the Sox’ four consecutive home runs. That was just freakin’ awesome.
I cant decide who I hate more Joe Morgan or Tim McCarver. I lean towards the latter but 6+ hours of the two of them has me at my end this morning.
“I’ll tell you one thing. It might only be April, but Joe Torre was managing that game like it was September.”
I don’t think it had anything to do with what month it is or what month he thought it was. Joe’s safety net has always been Mo and when he felt unsure, he went right to him. Even though he said Mo is a 3 out pitcher for 2007. I honestly think Joe would have done that very thing regardless of the opponent. (Time will tell)
As for the Pettitte move, it was his throw day and he did it last week also, not something that’s unheard of. That move had zero to do with month or opponent.
Celebrate, you just swept the Yankees, the best team in the AL East and quite frankly the best team in the AL (When healthy) in my opinion. You have every right. I mean people might say don’t go crazy being that Schilling got outpitched by AP and then Daisuke, well he didn’t look so kyoutendouchi,odorokubeki or sugoi. He actually looked quite hyu-man, hitobito, ninnin, ningenteki or jinteki. They also might give you the excuse that the Yankees were missing Moose and Wang, as well as Matsui and Posada, but you tell them to go stick it, 3 April wins are 3 April wins!!! Now who wants a Sammy I am wicked thirsty?
“I’ll tell you one thing. It might only be April, but Joe Torre was managing that game like it was September.”
We wouldn’t have seen Colter Bean if it was September. That was Joe expecting to get blown out.
By the end, Tea was trying to get a cheap win. If he was really managing as if it were Sept, Posada would have stayed in the game and Phleps would have gone to first.
Still, celebrate. Enjoy it. It’s not like it was unexpected (like a certain five game sweep) but good baseball, and W’s and L’s, all the same.
It is worth celebrating, no doubt. The three wins were very impressive for many, many reasons.
But I temper it for several reasons:
-NYY have plenty of time to recover
-Teams meet again this weekend in the Bronx
-15 more meetings between the two teams
-Recent history dictates that RS will not run away with the season series
-I don’t want to have to hear it if NYY sweeps in Bronx this weekend. (I know. I will anyway.)
Every time you put the Yankees in a three-game hole in the seasons eries, which seems to dictate the outcome of the division more often than not recently, it’s reason to celebrate. Sure, not like putting them down three games in September, but it’s a good start.
I thought Colter Bean was good?
You can’t be serious about Bean. The guy’s a junker who’s only on the team because of injuries. He’s the last one in the pen and Torre hates his nitpicking around the strike zone (he three 40 pitches in 2 IP).
“-I don’t want to have to hear it if NYY sweeps in Bronx this weekend. (I know. I will anyway.)”
Yeah, you’ll be hearing it if (when) NY takes 2 of 3. Because their team had injuries and ours (hopefully) won’t. And YF’s (not necessarily on this website) will be sure to point that out hundreds of times…but no, no excuses from over there, perish the thought.
jim, maybe not on this website, but I’ve definitely heard YF’s singing his praises. I believe “5th starter” has been bandied about, as well. Maybe he was only a prospect back in the days when NY’s farm was more like a desert?
Of course, if you have won one more game in September in 2005, _knowing_ that it matters, then you would’ve also took the division.
Didn’t proven steroid user Matt Lawton win a game for the Yanks late in the season? As long as we’re talking about “ifs” and “should/would haves”
When healthy, NY is the 3rd best team in the AL…and 2nd best in NY. I’d take Detroit and their youngin pitching staff as the best in the AL, Boston and NY/LAA tied, in that order.
Time will tell how it all plays out, but bottom line is that both NY and Boston are aging teams. You guys will get a lift when Wang and Matsui come back, but that’s about all you have to look forward to.
Any truth to the rumor that the DL threw a “Welcome Home” party for Hot Carl last week??
Yeah JP you are right I mean why would we look forward to getting Moose back, he’s old and crappy. And as far as that’s all we have to look forward to, you do realize we have one of the best prospects in the game down in AAA right, but you’re right who could get excited about that.
2nd Best Team in NY? Glavine, Duque and pray for rain are not better then the Yankees.
d1 – Re: Bean, you’ve been talking to the wrong YF’s or you haven’t talked to them since the Clinton Administration.
So, what’s going to happen when you guys rush Hughes to the big club (you know Georgie Porgie is just itching to pull the trigger) and he lays a huge egg, like your other youngin pitchers? I’m not denying that he’s good, but he’s not the second coming of the Rocket or anything like that. I think it’ll be impossible for him to live up to the expectations…much like it will be for Dice-K this year.
And, no Moose isn’t crappy, but he is extremely mediocre…
As for your Shea counterparts, they are younger and much more exciting to watch. Reyes is probably the best all around player in baseball right now.
Quo – I don’t understand what you’re saying.. all I’m saying is that the Sox controlled their own destiny.. it’s not like the Yanks won every game out..
Since when does “exciting to watch” makes it a better team?
The Mets’ nucleus is better than the Yankees. Wright, Reyes and Beltran are all young. Their pitching staff has issues, no doubt, but no more than yours does.
“And, no Moose isn’t crappy, but he is extremely mediocre…”
Isn’t it silly to call the pitcher with the third highest win total among active players (239) mediocre?
id dont agree that the outcome of the season series between the sox and the yankees plays a big roll in determining the outcome of the division. In fact, the series is more less always a wash with the winning team pulling either a one or two game advantage in the series. (That said it did decide it two years ago, so it obviously important.)The real difference comes in how the teams play the other crappy ones in the division. Two years ago the yanks had major issues with the D. Rays for some unknown reason and it resulted in a very close (tied) AL east. Last year, the sox got beat up by the Jays.
Forgot about Maddux, but the point stands.
“he lays a huge egg, like your other youngin pitchers? I’m not denying that he’s good, but he’s not the second coming of the Rocket or anything like that.”
JP, are you a scout? where did you find out what his career was gonna look like?
Also, for the record did Wang “lay an egg” the last two years as a young pitcher? How about Proctor? (last night not withstanding)
As for Moose’s medicority, ill take it when he had a better ERA than any of the starters on the sox last year. What does that make the Sox starters?
Try looking at the FACTS before talking smack.
There’s a whole Web site dedicated to the alleged greatness of Colter Bean.
I knew I wasn’t crazy, and I know I read at least some LoHud or Banter commenters questioning why Bean wasn’t in Game 1 instead of overworking half the pen.
“”And, no Moose isn’t crappy, but he is extremely mediocre…”
Isn’t it silly to call the pitcher with the third highest win total among active players (239) mediocre?”
Moose gets his props for what he’s accomplished in his career, no doubt. He’s had some great moments. But what you did yesterday doesn’t win you games today and tomorrow. Count me among those who thinks Moose is past his prime. He’s slightly above average at best now.
Or “of only ordinary or moderate quality; neither good nor bad; barely adequate.”
As others have said, “mediocre.”
If Moose is mediocre this season, it’ll be because of injury issues. This is one SF who thinks he’s still pretty good.
yeah, count me as number two there. I’ve always said that he’s the Yankee ace, no matter which broken elbow hobbles back from Houston. Mussina is legit, and that’s all there is to it.
What I meant Lar, is if we’re talking about “ifs” and “shoulds” (A perfect world scenario) then Lawton’s GW HR should have been removed.
I’m not an advocate for such things, because it’d be a huge mess and not worth the trouble, I’m more trying to make the point that talking about such things like that in hindsight is kind of damning for both teams. Not so much with Giambi, but given his (Lawton’s) suspension, it’s pretty much a fact that the Yanks won at least one game on the back of a cheater that season.
Moose is definately on the downslope of his career but he put up a 3.51 ERA last year. Would his detractors call Schilling medicore? I sure would not but the fact is that Moose had a better season last year.
Its rare for someone of his caliber to slip very quickly into mediocrity. The guy’s brains alone are worth a win or two for him a year. If he can stay healthy he is big asset to the yanks.
“If Moose is mediocre this season, it’ll be because of injury issues. This is one SF who thinks he’s still pretty good.”
Isn’t that kind of the way most good pitchers decline with age? Even if they don’t go on the DL, you typically hear about the same shoulder issues, decreased velocity, etc. He was just about average in 04 and 05 while fighting through injury problems, and came back last season to slightly improve his K rate, greatly cut down on his walks, and cut his BAA by 40 points. Maybe he was just completely healthy for the first time in a few years?
The change was very real and quantifiable, but we don’t know if it will hold up. I’d set the odds at 50/50 in favor of him putting up similar stats; it’d be 60/40 if he hadn’t hurt himself so quickly this season.
d1, all good points, but Moose isn’t exactly a “blow it past em” kind of pitcher. He throws a wide range of pitches and mixes them and velocity pretty well. Either in this thread or another, someone compared Matsuzaka and Moose. I’m not sure how I feel about it, but it’s not too off the mark in terms of velocity and not absolutely relying on the FB.
“There’s a whole Web site dedicated to the alleged greatness of Colter Bean.”
Wasn’t there a similar site for Lenny Dinardo?
“Also, for the record did Wang “lay an egg” the last two years as a young pitcher? How about Proctor? (last night not withstanding)”
Comparing Hughes to Wang and Proctor as far as age goe is a little off. Hughes is 20. Wang established himself at 25, and Proctor’s first decent year was at 29.
Though this SF wouldn’t mind if he took 5-7 more years to find his MLB groove.
“Would his detractors call Schilling medicore?”
I think he’s headed in that direction. It remains to be seen how well he reinvents himself.
And Sam, your comment about Moose’s brain is well taken.
Ah, Quo, I think we were talking about different threads.. =) My comments were just about the “It’s only April”, and my logic is that if you can’t make up a game (or three) you lost in April given the rest of the season, it doesn’t matter anyhow.
That said, and I don’t mean to trivalize it, the Yanks can’t possibly be the only team with them..
You Yanks fans are always good for a laugh when you start talking about how mediocre your players are (deserved or not). You getting all defensive only proves my point…
I would also consider the year Schilling put up last year mediocre by his standards, Lowell an average hitting 3b and Coco a below average CF.
There’s also no denying that the Sox pitching staff (outside of Paps) was a below average unit last year.
Tyrel i agree Proctor may not be the best comparison but i think Wang is apt just as a young pitcher out of the yanks farm system. There are going to be very few pitchers anywhere that are even close to major league ready at age 20, so age alone isnt a very good grounds for comarison.
Im not really sure what other young pitchers “layed an egg” out of the yankees farm system. We havent really had many great pitching prospects to lay said eggs over the past years as it is. It just seemed to me to be a baseless comment.
By the way, I think it was a YF who made the comparison. Given this: http://tinyurl.com/2m25qj and also the fact that it’s six seasons later, if the Sox paid too much for Matsuzaka, how about looking at it relative to Moose’s contract?
Okay, Lar. Honestly, you’re right, it’s not really like Lawton is the only player in MLB to have done them nor are the Yankees the only team to have players who have/do do them. It was more an argument over the principle. Maybe I was off on your original point, as it were.
So JP im just trying to clarify here. If Matzusaka has a record of 15-7 with a 3.51 ERA this year. Is he medicore?
Rebutting a point of yours can hardly be considered being defensive, its simply a different opinion. I can promise you if I posted something along the lines of Schilling is now at best a mediocre pitcher, there would be plenty of responses from SFs. Id expect this and wouldnt think anyone was being defensive. This certainly isnt a YF-only type response.
Quo, I know Moose isn’t a blow-it-by you type, and could easily continue on, surviving the same way Tom Glavine has. But at the same time, the numbers are a little strange; you just don’t usually see a starting pitcher have a resurgance like that, and when you do, it’s often attributable to something as mundane as better luck.
With Moose it was an all-around improvement; it could be permanent, it could be health-related, or it could be a 1-year anomoly. We just don’t know yet. Again, I like Moose and for reasons partially unrelated to logic, expect him to have a good year; I’m just not totally convinced, though, looking at the numbers.
Schilling actually concerns me a bit this year, given the lost velocity on his fastball and total reinvention of his approach. He’s done well enough thus far, and aside from a few bad pitches to A-Rod really didn’t get hit that hard…though there were a number of loud outs at the track. Still, he’s clearly recognized a need for a new strategy, and I think is intelligent / diligent enough to work it out.
With all the expectations on Dice-K and the weight of his very expensive price tag, yes, 15-7 3.51 would be mediocre. Moose made $19,000,000 last year. I would expect a pitcher being paid almost ARod level money to go more like 20-6 2.80.
And yes, I realize Dice is “only” making $6,333,333 this year, but it did cost us $51,111,111 just to get our foot in the door. I am expecting Santana-like numbers from him to justify his contract.
Hope you are clear on what I’m saying this time…
“I am expecting Santana-like numbers from him to justify his contract.”
Then you are in for some major disappointment. I like DiceK, but he is no Santana. Not even close.
I don’t agree. I think that once he gets his bearings and adjusts to the new culture and his new way of life, he’ll be just fine. He’s done all this practically THROUGH an interpreter. Once he figures it out, he will blow our minds…
Um, in a good way. :)
Clearly we have different opinions on the definition of “mediocre” then. Moose made $19 mil last year bc it was the last year of a back end loaded contract. If I were an SF, id be thrilled with 15-7 3.51 from DiceK no matter what kind of money they paid for him. But hey thats me, i hope he goes 7-15 with 5.31 ERA!
I’d be happy with 15-7 3.51 from Dice. But not thrilled.
I’d be thrilled with 15-7 3.51 from Beckett.
See the difference??
i certainly see the difference but i I also think that you’re expectations are way too high. Santana is the best pitcher in baseball by a healthy margin, personally i dont see DiceK along side of him. Linking performance expectations to contracts can be problematic too. Barry Zito just got a $140 mil contract for example. I dont think the Giants are expecting better than Santana numbers from him.
See what i mean?
JP, I think your ideas of what to expect from a pitcher in the AL — let alone the AL East — are a bit skewed. If Daisuke has a 3.51 ERA this year, he will be a full run lower than league average, which for a major league rookie would be fantastic. A sub-3 ERA is pretty much unthinkable. I would suspect that if Santana faced the Sox, Yanks and/or Jays 18-19 times each, he would be above 3.00 as well.
is it time to start comparing abreu and drews contracts yet?
No. Let’s not do that until, umm, November? Primary knock on Drew is injury history, and that’s still there.
That said…you see the way he used the wall against the Ass-Man last night, setting up Lowell’s homer? This park is f*cking PERFECT for him!
Daisuke isn’t a normal rookie…is he? I mean seriously. What I’ve seen so far is a guy that is still figuring out the whole USA baseball thing and has pitched pretty well (last night notwithstanding).
The Barry Zito signing is only surpassed by the Mike Hampton signing as one of the worst pitching contracts in the history of the game.
I agree that the zito contract was crazy but big pitching is expensive. My point about it was you are expecting Santana numbers due to the money they gave him but thats not what the market was when the contract was given. If he was truely Santanaesque Id say he should have been worth about $200 mil. I dont think the move to get him can be considered anything but a success if he puts up 14-17 Wins a year with an ERA in the mid 3’s for the length of the contract.
This just in – Santana isn’t worth $200 mil. He may be worth $140 mil…maybe…Zito definately isn’t.
I’ll just lay it out here what I’m expecting from Dice – 20-8 3.25.
15-7 3.51 makes me happy. ^^^ makes me thrilled.
“the worst pitching contracts in the history of the game.”
Don’t forget about Chan Ho. Pavano has to be up there too, and Kevin Brown’s looked pretty terrible towards the end there.
Mike Hampton and Darren Dreifort need to be in this conversation, as far as worst pitching contracts.
Mike Hampton is already there.
Todd Van Poppel sprinkled with a little Brien Taylor should probably make a guest appearance also.
This just in. Players are “worth” whatever they can get in an open market. Performance is not the only factor that goes into determining a contract’s value. How could any of these guys be “worth” what they are getting. Will Arod ever put up $25 mil worth of numbers? Manny put up $20 mil worth” Matzusaka was “worth” more to the sox this year bc there was nothing else out there, they said as much when they signed him. In a down year with more pitching and less free cash around the league the bid is less and hte contract is less. Does that mean he is “worth” less?
I’ve been saying all along that I expect DMat to be a third starter – I think I’ve been using the wrong term. I meant “expecting” as in the mathematical expectations – his “break even” point on his contract for me would be that he’s a third starter.
Remember that there will be an adjustment period where he’ll fal into slumps, and he’ll have to adjust, etc. Even if he has a “bad”-ish year (for his contract) he is still a “rookie” in this league, and should be judged accordingly..
ARod has certainly put $25 million worth of asses in seats each year for the Yankees. Ditto for Manny for the Sox. Dice-K is doing the same for the Sox.
Ichiro’s price tag this winter will be insane.
So you are saying that having Arod on the yankees alone has drawn an extra 887,000 fans to yankee stadium or rougly 21% of their total attendance last year? Sure buddy.
As quick as you are to dismiss ARod’s value to the Yankees, would they even be in contention without him last year and the numbers he put up? Probably not. Don’t get me wrong, I can’t stand him, but he definitely makes you guys competitive…
And the thread name was referenced on Boston.com “extra bases”
Clearly you have missed my point. Im not dismissing Arod’s value at all. He is a huge part of the team and i have always liked him and stood by him. I just was making the point that value is a relative thing. You claimed he put $25 mil worth of asses in seats which is ludacris. Manny doesnt bring $20 mil worth of attendance alone in but he is also a critical part of the Red Sox. Are his numbers alone really worth that kind of money? Would he get that same contract right now? All of these things change year to year. Dice K’s ultimate value will be determined by a host of variables.
I also think calling the yankees simply comepetitive is kinda funny.
I think JP is really one of the guys from EEI or Dirt Dogs. Just sayin.
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