Alex Rodriguez, 3B, Boston Red Sox?

It’s time to hash this out.

Do we as Red Sox fans want Alex Rodriguez on this team?

To me, there are a couple issues:

  1. Is Mike Lowell a viable option? If not — either because he’s asking too much or signs right out of the gate elsewhere — then A-Rod becomes much more palatable.
  2. Is A-Rod worthwhile up to a certain price? $30 million a year for 10 years? No thanks. $30 million for five? Maybe.
  3. How much stock do you put in off-field antics? It’s hard to say anyone’s more distracting than manny Ramirez, so do we care much what strippers A-Rod is with?
  4. The clutch factor. Do you truly believe A-Rod doesn’t perform in the clutch, and that his teams haven’t won a championship because he’s on them? Considering the teams he’s been with, that seems to ignore a whole lot of other, more likely problems inherent with those clubs.
  5. Likability. I think of this as a non-starter. Most people don’t seem to like Curt Schilling, but cheer wildly for him. Josh Beckett tends to act like a jerk a lot of the time, but people love him. J.D. Drew seems like one of the nicest guys on the planet, but until he hit that grand slam, he was booed all season.

So, do you want him? If not, would you take him anyway for lack of a better option? If so, at what price?

108 comments… add one
  • I agree with ‘Tek, and the majority of Red Sox fans…re-sign Lowell.

    Chris SF November 2, 2007, 12:39 pm
  • sign lowell please! he fits in the system really well. why risk it and try another 3rd baser.

    mike November 2, 2007, 12:42 pm
  • take him. He will be a cancer in your club house.

    the shantee November 2, 2007, 12:50 pm
  • 30 mil + tax. But go for it.

    Lar November 2, 2007, 12:51 pm
  • Ubnless no one else is interested, I’d be interested in a thread or two on
    a) Barry Bonds saying he will boycott the HoF if they display his record-breaking HR-ball with the asterisk that has been printed on it (I’d love to see exactly this happen, but don’t expect mlb would go down this path) and/or
    b) Peter Gammons latest rip into (one might even say tirade against) A-Rod and Boras and “WS Interruption-Gate”. I love Gammons and mostly agree with his first sentiments about this expressed in the post-game that night, but he seems to me to be going overboard now – both calling it he lowest point in his career following baseball (is this possibly lower than steroids scandals, Barry Bonds breaking the HR record, etc??) and then harping on and on about A-Rod only ever playing in two winning post-season series. He is sort of piling on right now and for the first time I am losing rspect for him.
    Anyway, I know neither of these is the topic of this thread so I donj’t mean to hijack it going forward, but a posting on either or both of these would be great as I am geninely interested in others’ views.

    IronHorse (yf) November 2, 2007, 1:12 pm
  • I think you missed one factor which is affect on the clubhouse. It is widely acknowledged that Lowell is a great guy to have around, speaks Spanish and English, and is an inspiration to the younger guys. A-Rod doesn’t seem like a plus int he clubhouse but then again, I’ve never been on a team with him.

    rootbeerfloat November 2, 2007, 1:16 pm
  • I never, ever thought I would appeal to “team chemistry” when it came to questions about who the Sox should sign, but I feel like this is the one case where it *might* matter. Francona would really have his hands full with a clubhouse rebellion on that one.
    And I’m not even sure it would be good business for the Sox Corp. They’re already getting all the gate revenue they can and I can’t really imagine ARod Sox merch being all that popular — at least, not popular enough to make up for for the bad feeling it seems likely to create among fans.
    On the other hand, Sox gotta have someone to replace the production of Manny and Ortiz as they age and eventually Manny eventually leaves.

    stuck working November 2, 2007, 1:41 pm
  • You have gotta sign Lowell, ESPECIALLY since the Yankees are going to try to scoop him up now that they’ve lost ARod. He’s a great fit with this team, hits extremely well at Fenway, and it would keep the Yankees from getting a decent 3rd baseman.
    If the Yankees steal him however (a hopefully unlikely scenario), then you must sign ARod. With Lowell gone the Sox will desperately need to fill the production gap in the lineup. Also, like stuckworking said, you need someone to take over for Manny down the road when he leaves (and, to a lesser extent, Ortiz).
    On a positive note, I saw David Ortiz on Regis and Kelly this morning, and he said he wants to be a Red Sox for life and would never go to the Yankees. That made me smile, even if it is unlikely.

    Atheose November 2, 2007, 1:57 pm
  • and he said he wants to be a Red Sox for life and would never go to the Yankees.
    Didn’t Johnny Damon say the same thing once?

    Jay-YF November 2, 2007, 2:01 pm
  • Either way, I think that the Red Sox are in a no-lose situation.
    A-Rod is a fantastic position, and for really the first time ever, he’ll be on a squad with enough pitching to help him out a little bit. Lowell is awesome, but may demand more than they’re going to give him.
    On another note, it’s funny to me that A-Rod is now a “cancer” that he’s not with NY any longer. Just a few short weeks ago, every NY fan around was chanting MVP, and blowharding on how he’s turned it around mentally.
    A-Rod is awesome, and if I had to choose, I’d rather have him than Manny eight days a week. I know some of you think I’m crazy (Pete), but the Red Sox are a better team with A-Rod than with ManRam.
    What I’d love to see in April…
    C – Varitek
    1B – yOOOK
    2b – Pedroia
    3b – A-Rod
    SS – Lugo.
    I’m not giving up on Drew or Lugo, nor have I. I’ve been pissed for sure, but I’m sticking with them.
    Thinking “dynastically”, A-Rod is the best choice for the future of this club, but only if Manny is traded. That’s too much scratch on two guys, methinks.

    Brad November 2, 2007, 2:04 pm
  • Didn’t Johnny Damon say the same thing once?
    Yes, and thank GOD he’s a bold-faced liar.

    Brad November 2, 2007, 2:06 pm
  • Didn’t Johnny Damon say the same thing once?
    I trust Ortiz more than I trust Judas.

    Atheose November 2, 2007, 2:11 pm
  • Besides, are you all sure that Damon didn’t do it on purpose? Maybe he knew his body was in decline and signed with the Yankees to sabotage them.
    He’s simple enough that I could believe that Theo was able to convince him to do it. Best of all, he probably forgot all about it almost immediately, which is why he hasn’t let any of this slip out in interviews.

    stuck working November 2, 2007, 2:17 pm
  • http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/11/01/bc.bbm.a.rod.mudhens.ap/index.html
    LMAO The Toledo Mudhens just offered Alex Rodriguez a position on their AAA team, with incentives if he leads the team to 10 consecutive International League Championships.
    I’ve been laughing for 5 straight minutes.

    Atheose November 2, 2007, 2:18 pm
  • As for A-Rod and a 5 year deal, forget it. There’s no way he signs a 5 year deal. Once that deal is done, he’d be 37-38 and who’s going to give him $30 million a year at that point, regardless of how many home runs he has? It’s going to take at least an 8 year deal to sign him and that’s only after everybody has passed on the 10 year deal that he and Boras undoubtedly want.

    Jay-YF November 2, 2007, 2:19 pm
  • ARod actually is good with the young ‘uns. Just that veterans can’t deal with his crap. I think Melky and Robi were shadowing him and working with their routine or something.

    Lar November 2, 2007, 2:19 pm
  • An 8 year contract is definately a minimum in the A-Rod/Boras world, id be expecting 10 when all is said and done as well. These guys are looking to top their last contact for total value, which IMO is a big part of why they didnt even listen to offers from the yankees. The numbers that are being tossed about and the amount of teams that are “kicking the tires” show that Boras may have read this market right and dont need the deep pockets of the yankees to drive up his price.

    Sam-YF November 2, 2007, 2:26 pm
  • I know the preference from a clubhouse/harmony angle is to re-sign Lowell, but we have tof ace the fact that the Sox might not want to at the price he could command.
    And that leaves A-Rod, which to my mind is very tantalizing. I don’t believe in this alleged non-cluth gene he supposedly has. I also believe winning cures most if not all clubhouse concerns. I also question the allegation that A-Rod is selfish, thinks of himself before his team, and is only in it for the money considering he 1. Accepted a pay cut to come to the Red Sox, and 2. Moved to third base to join the Yankees, even though he was a better shortstop than Jeter.
    He would definitely be under significant scrutiny in Boston, but he did win two MVPs under such scrutiny in New York, and the Boston press is much less likely to drag his personal life through the mud (no tabloid competition like the Post and Daily News have).

    Paul SF November 2, 2007, 2:45 pm
  • If we could get him at a discount, I’d take him at short and trade Lugo!

    Sean November 2, 2007, 2:46 pm
  • why would the second richest team in baseball get a discount?

    Anonymous November 2, 2007, 2:56 pm
  • anon was me.

    sam-YF November 2, 2007, 2:57 pm
  • The worst thing about A-Rod, is with a 10 year deal, when he starts to slow down, and hit like, say Lowell this year, he’d still be getting 30mil a year. Screw that. I’d rather put some minor leaguer in for a year until something better comes up.

    Pat (SF) November 2, 2007, 2:59 pm
  • Do not want.
    If the captain of the team is holding up a ‘resign Mike Lowell’ sign during the victory parade, that has to mean something.
    Plus I know a guy who works in the nyy organization and even he said the Yankees were not big fans of Arod- and that was way back in May!

    no sleep til brooklyn SF November 2, 2007, 2:59 pm
  • I will say this…Prior to the Yankees getting A-Rod, I admit that I had a man crush on him. I thought he was the best thing since sliced bread. Once he became a Yankee it was a chore to keep him in the same graces. I hate drama, that’s why I respect DJ so much, he may have his off the field escapades, but overall between the lines DJ has been drama free since day one. Alex’s drama is drastically different then Manny’s. Manny behaves like Manny, but for the most part he stays quiet to the press all season. Alex spent his entire time in pinstripes trying to get the press and the fans to love him. Manny couldn’t care less. He does his shennanigans and couldn’t care less what the press or the fans think. It’s draining to you as a fan and I can imagine it’s probably draining to his teammates. Answering questions day after day after day about Alex and his pysche and relationship with the fans. His talent is OUT OF THIS WORLD, but the other BS is just not worth the talent he brings UNLESS he changes. I am sure a lot of this stemmed from Alex knowing he could never be held in the same light as DJ with the fans. In Boston he would be in the shadows of David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez, two sluggers who brought their team two rings. It’s a terrible fit unless Boras has built in a labotomy contigency into the contract. Pass Sox fans, Pass. Take it from a man who’s name used to be “Triskaidekaphobia.”

    John - YF November 2, 2007, 3:39 pm
  • I go back and forth on this one, honestly. I’m pretty convinced my neighbors think I’m having a steamy relationship with one Mike Lowell for all the times this season I yelled “Mike Lowell, you fu#@ing stud!” after a key hit/rbi. And he is undoubtedly a great clubhouse guy and go-between. Re-signing him would be my first preference, but not at a “name your price” contract.
    Re: A-rod, statistically, you can’t go wrong and we all know that. He’s a beast, he’s going to continue to be a beast, and I cannot imagine the damage our lineup could do next year with him in it. Plus, we could add him next year w/out significantly increasing payroll – if clement and schill come off the books, that’s 26M right there – plus Lowell’s 9M, and we’re right in the ballpark. Figure the year after we let Manny go and that’s another 20M freed up. So it’s not as crazy as it sounds. But damn, I mean…it’s A-Rod. And frankly, I don’t know if he can stand the heat. I honestly think j.d. drew’s mental makeup is better suited for boston than A-Rod’s. My feeling is, if Lowell goes, let’s try to work a trade (and diet regimen) for Miggy Cabrera.

    Andrew BoSox November 2, 2007, 3:58 pm
  • It’s not really the cash that bothers me. With Clement and possibly Schilling and Lowell’s contracts coming off, we could arguably add ARod on a revenue-neutral basis.
    It’s the length of the contract. 10 years for a 32 year old? Over the last 12 years, ARod has averaged 153 games per season so he’s been healthy historically, but I just don’t see that continuing forever. Five years? Sure. Six? probably. Seven is pushing it.
    The problem the Sox have though, is a general lack of power throughout their farm system and aging #3 and 4 hitters.

    Anonymous November 2, 2007, 4:07 pm
  • My feeling is, if Lowell goes, let’s try to work a trade (and diet regimen) for Miggy Cabrera.
    The Sox organization won’t trade their top prospects for Miggy, who is already cheap for the Marlins. Plus, would you want to give up Ellsbury/Buchholz and maybe more for Cabrera, when we could get Johan Santana for the same amount? No thanks.
    Realistically, it’s either Lowell or ARod. No one else.

    Atheose November 2, 2007, 4:12 pm
  • Speaking of 3rd basemen, anyone else see the report that Cashman told Cano that if he didn’t want to get switched to 3B next year, he better get his friend Wilson Betemit to actually work out and drop all the extra weight this off-season? Cano apparently said he’d get on Betemit’s case. Funny.

    IronHorse (yf) November 2, 2007, 4:14 pm
  • from a business standpoint, why would the Sox bother? Fenway is filled already for every game.
    from a competitive standpoint, well, he’s a great player, and while his teams not winning it all certainly can’t be pinned specifically on him, he hasn’t risen to the occasion in the post-season either.
    The concern is that if the Sox drag their feet on Lowell or he’s unreasonable, there’s not a whole lot else out there. If you get A-rod people will try to tear you down, but they’re going to do that anyway because the Sox just won.
    So, if I have my druthers? Keep Lowell, bu I don’t think Slappy McBluelips would destroy the team if he was added.

    ponch - sf November 2, 2007, 4:14 pm
  • I agree wholeheartedly, Ponch. I would prefer to have Lowell, but if he asks for too much then I suppose I can ignore ARod’s drama-queen tendencies.
    But on the other hand, we’re already overpaying Drew and Lugo. How about we overpay someone who is actually going to produce?

    Atheose November 2, 2007, 4:19 pm
  • IH, my favorite part of that rumor is that the Yankees are interested in trading for the O-Dog, Orlando Hudson. Also it seems less and less likely that Betemit will ever be more then a role player on this team. There were reports that Cashman contacted the (White) Sox in regards to Joe Crede. Johnny Damon for Joe Crede. If Crede is healthy, 100% recovered from surgery I do that in a second.
    Ponch, it’s not so much we (Yankee fans) are blaming him for the team not winning, I am more focused on the everyday burden he puts on the mental stability of the team. It can’t be easy being his teammate. That’s what I would worry about, especially with the Red Sox where they are a tight knit group.

    John - YF November 2, 2007, 4:21 pm
  • Typical Yankee fan arrogance. Got your own thread, and still gotta talk in ours, too. Pssh…. ;-)

    Paul SF November 2, 2007, 4:22 pm
  • Before I laugh Paul was that addressed at me or IH?

    John - YF November 2, 2007, 4:24 pm
  • Separate from what SFs want to see happen, what is the buzz in Boston about what management there actually wants to make happen? Anything reliable? Is there any info re: whether there is, for example, any difference between what Lowell will want and what Boston is prepared to offer? If not, I’ll be really surprised if Boston doesn’t seal him up and let someone else deal with A-Rod and his team of trainers and psychotherapists.

    IronHorse (yf) November 2, 2007, 4:24 pm
  • Oh and John (YF), I think the Cash-Cano-Betemit discussion is more than a rumor…I know you can’t trust the Daily News to avoid sensationalizing, but they usually don’t make direct quotes up.

    IronHorse (yf) November 2, 2007, 4:27 pm
  • IH, I’m no expert, but reading between the lines of the quotes, the Sox ownership seems very cool on A-Rod and very warm toward Lowell.
    This isn’t surprising, of course. I don’t think there’s a soul in New England who wouldn’t rather have Lowell’s declining production for three/four years at a cheaper price than A-Rod’s declining production for 10 years at the highest price in baseball.

    Paul SF November 2, 2007, 4:27 pm
  • Why so testy IH? I didn’t mean you made it up, I just meant that I would imagine Cano to 3B is just a thought right now and not a given. Didn’t mean rumor in that way that it was made up.

    John - YF November 2, 2007, 4:32 pm
  • John, I wasn’t annoyed at all. Seriously. The dangers of e-mails and blogging I think…I just think Cash might have actually said this to Cano, which I find kind of funny. Sorry if it came across as an attack – it really wasn’t.

    IronHorse (yf) November 2, 2007, 4:35 pm
  • I don’t want ARod on the Red Sox, even though it would make the Boston lineup absolutely ridiculously productive.
    What I don’t get is why the focus is on ARod as a third baseman.
    If the Sox are really going to break the bank on him (rather than pursuing someone like Santana, a much better move IMHO), then they surely should consider him as a shortstop, not a third baseman, shipping out Julio “.239 BA” Lugo… somewhere. Anywhere.
    They could then either (a) keep Lowell, too, which would be ridiculous payroll-wise, but clearly we’re not talking about pinching pennies here, (b) move Youks back to third and find a 1st baseman, or (c) find someone else entirely to play third.
    But why would any team whose captain isn’t Derek “Intangibles” Jeter play ARod anywhere but shortstop?

    Hudson November 2, 2007, 4:37 pm
  • The problem with shipping out lugo to make room for A-Rod is that the sox will have to pick some (most?) of his contract which in essence adds to the cost of A-Rod for at least the first 4? years of his contract. With the sox already paying for some of Renteria’s contact would they really want to being paying 3 SS at once?

    sam-YF November 2, 2007, 4:40 pm
  • Here’s a question: why I haven’t I heard anybody mention the possibility of the Sox bringing up Chris Carter, the 1B prospect they got from the WMP trade, and moving Youk back to 3B? Carter hit .324 in AAA last year, albeit in the hitting-friendly PCL.
    I think this possibility was mentioned at the time of the trade, before Lowell became a superhero, but why shouldn’t it be considered now, if it becomes prohibitive to retain Lowell?

    stuck working November 2, 2007, 4:49 pm
  • stuck, he can’t catch a cold. His defense is absolutely terrible, and while it could get better, if it improves, it’s still only “bad”, and not “terrible”.

    Brad November 2, 2007, 4:56 pm
  • Just out of curiosity, I wonder if anyone has ever moved to shortstop in their 30’s after playing another position for a length of time? I’m just imagining the nightmare for opposing teams if the Sox somehow kept Lowell and put ARod back in his original position. I think I need to go lie down.

    attackgerbil November 2, 2007, 5:02 pm
  • Whoops… sorry Hudson. I missed your comment. Sorry to be redundant.

    attackgerbil November 2, 2007, 5:05 pm
  • My brain says yes (with some reservations about the length and cost of the deal), my heart says hell fucking no.
    Overall, I’d rather overpay a bit for Lowell and have flexibility at 3B going forward (in 4-5 years) than be stuck with the jackass for a decade.

    Jackie (SF) November 2, 2007, 5:17 pm
  • “I’d rather overpay a bit…than be stuck with the jackass for a decade”
    Manny will be s disappointed to hear this…
    :o)

    IronHorse (yf) November 2, 2007, 5:20 pm
  • With Manny, it’s a very different kind of jackassery. ;) More benign and easily tolerated within the clubhouse, imo. But I’m probably a little biased.

    Jackie (SF) November 2, 2007, 5:22 pm
  • Jackie you are 100% right. I don’t think Manny’s “jackassery” has any effect on the clubhouse. On the flip side I think Alex is a constant drain on his teammates. I only hope when it’s all said and done someone comes out and tells the truth.

    John - YF November 2, 2007, 5:26 pm
  • // … which in essence adds to the cost of A-Rod for at least the first 4? years of his contract //
    If you’re buying ARod, you’re ipso facto breaking the bank. So worrying about what the Sox owe on past shortstop blunders doesn’t strike me as really the issue. If Boston goes for Mr. May, it won’t be about money.
    (Anyway, how do we know that the Sox would have to eat that much of Lugo’s contract?)
    My big concerns, as someone who does not like the idea Rodriguez wearing Fenway whites, are that (a) Theo and his compères seem to have had a fetish for ARod in the past, and (b) they also have been eager to get rid of Manny — who I consider essential the Sox success in both the regular season and the postseason, pace all the anti-Manny media.
    If buying Rodriguez means not keeping Ramirez for the rest of his career, then I am doubly opposed to the idea.

    Hudson November 2, 2007, 5:28 pm
  • In the words of Ronnie’s sweetie Nancy….
    Just say no!!

    Rob SF November 2, 2007, 5:38 pm
  • The last time Boston gave a lot to get a highly-touted player that I really didn’t think they needed it was Eric Gagne.
    Based on how that worked out, I encourage Boston to do he same vis-a-vis A-Rod.

    IronHorse (yf) November 2, 2007, 5:46 pm
  • Heh. I thought about this and then realized that if the BoSox do sign A-Rod (yay compound words!) then they’ll have officially become the 21st century Yankees. I mean, between Manny, Slappy Pedroia and A-Rod, you’ll be a Barry Bonds away from having all the worst aspects of MLB on display at Fenway. If you’d like to hasten your descent into evil by sending Jacoby to the Bronx, we wouldn’t complain.
    Okay, that wasn’t helpful or productive, and A-Rod is an amazing player, but I think there’s a kernel of sanity amidst my ranting.

    East River Blues November 2, 2007, 5:51 pm
  • ERB: They should also extend Schilling. Then, as the Emperor in Star Wars would say, their journey to the dark side will be complete.

    IronHorse (yf) November 2, 2007, 5:53 pm
  • I’m really curious… What is it that YFs hate so much about Pedroia? I mean, did he do something specific to earn such universal venom from New Yorkers?
    (Besides being much better than your second baseman, I mean?)

    Hudson November 2, 2007, 5:53 pm
  • Let me amend my statement. The idea of a lineup that has Ortiz, A-Rod and Manny all batting together is terrifying, especially at Fenway.
    P.S. You can have Damon back.

    East River Blues November 2, 2007, 6:00 pm
  • I really, really hope the Sox brass focus on pitching this offseason.
    Right now, the Sox rotation is:
    1. Beckett — expect another 20 wins
    2. DiceK — decent, potentially stronger
    3. ???
    4. Buchholz — potentially great, but unproven
    5. Lester — Okay as a #5
    With only Wakes as a possible fill-in starter, and no real replacement for Schilling yet, I’m nervous.
    Especially since an injury to or a sub-par season from any of the above could really leave the Sox flailing.
    Not to mention the need for more middle relievers/set-up guys. (Where’s Donnelly at these days, I wonder.)
    If Theo & Co. spring for A-Rod, then it will signal that they are placing their bets on a 1,000-run season to carry the Sox, rather than pitching… an approach which hasn’t done the Yankees much good.

    Hudson November 2, 2007, 6:02 pm
  • No. Not at any price.

    Pete November 2, 2007, 6:06 pm
  • Yeah, I second Hudson’s question at 5:53pm about the YF hate for Pedroia. Does this go back to that A-Rod takeout slide brouhaha? Or does it predate that? I don’t really get it.

    stuck working November 2, 2007, 6:08 pm
  • And Gammons is perfectly representing my thoughts. Bonds only screwed himself. A-Rod and Boras gang-raped the sport.

    Pete November 2, 2007, 6:09 pm
  • Hudson, I hate to burst your bubble, but no 2nd baseman in the league today is “much better” than Robbie Cano.
    And I don’t hate Pedroia that much – he is gnat-like and I am annoyed by all gnat-like players that don’t play for NY because they are effective, but I don’t know enough about his personality to dislike him more than the standard gnat for any other team frankly.

    IronHorse (yf) November 2, 2007, 6:11 pm
  • i dont have a hatred for Pedroia but i can understand how some people may not be overly fond of him. How many SFs out there loved Chuck Knoblauch (when he was good) when he was on the yanks? Not many. They are similar players in some respects. I think he is an excellent player but as a guy who gets under your skin on the rival team i think questioning why some YFs wouldnt like him is kinda naive. I think the ‘slappy’ reference is because he did the basically the same thing A-Rod did in ’04 this year and didnt get much attention for it.

    sam-YF November 2, 2007, 6:14 pm
  • Stuck has the best point in this thread (which ponch seconds)- A-Rod wouldn’t help one iota with the club making money. They already sell out every game. They already play in the post-season. They already have excellent TV ratings. If nothing else, it’s a bad business move – spend 300 million to not increase revenue?

    Pete November 2, 2007, 6:15 pm
  • “A-Rod and Boras gang-raped the sport”
    Pete, I wasn’t a fan of what these guys did either, but don’t you think your language is absurdly over the top?
    I respect Gammons probably as much as any commentator, but he too, by saying it is the low point of his career – a career that spanned a players strike; a steroid controversy that places the greatest record in sports under a cloud of suspicion; fans running onto a field and beating up an umpire; Marge Schott’s racist comments; and any other number of despicable things – is way overdoing it.
    And to then go on and on about how A-Rod sucks in the post-season – reiterating it in a couple of different ways just today…I mean, I don’t really like A-Rod, but Gammons for the first time is striking me as being mean-spirited right now. It happened, it sucked, Boras apologized but whether you buy his apology or not, it’s so over. How can you call this gang-rape, the low point of a decades-long career, etc, etc.
    And we complain about certain commentators being given too much to hyperbole.

    IronHorse (yf) November 2, 2007, 6:16 pm
  • Hudson for the record:
    Pedroia .317/8/50 86R .822 OPS
    Cano .306/19/97 93R .841 OPS
    Its gonna be exciting going forward with these two young second basemen anchoring these teams but I think Cano has to have the edge right now.

    Anonymous November 2, 2007, 6:22 pm
  • IH –
    No. They released info intended to disrupt not only the World Series (which by itself the commissioner is willing to fine for) but in the middle of a game, and a decent clinching, game at that. They could have released that info at any other time. It was specifically meant to take away from the game while poaching free (and expensive – see cost of a 30 sec commercial) publicity.
    I see exactly where my namesake is coming from and I agree 100%. While players routinely do things in their own self-interest, this came at the expense of the sport at the time it happened. I hope they both get cancer.

    Pete November 2, 2007, 6:23 pm
  • anon was me. damn typekey

    Anonymous November 2, 2007, 6:23 pm
  • me being sam-YF.
    Why isnt it putting my name in?

    Anonymous November 2, 2007, 6:24 pm
  • Gotta agree with IH on this one. I was surprised when I heard how emotional Gammons was about this in that radio segment the day after and I’m even more surprised that he’s still on about it. Agreed the opt-out timing was beyond classless but harping on it like this being a bit self-righteous. It’s not like anyone was actually hurt.
    Also, Pete, I don’t want to be the PC Police or anything, but could you please stay away from the gang-rape metaphors? It’s not only over the top, it’s also a little offensive. I’ve got friends who’ve been raped and I think they’d feel more comfortable if we kept the rape-talk reserved for cases where people have actually been, you know, raped.

    stuck working November 2, 2007, 6:24 pm
  • Yeah, well, I was gang-raped in prison. What Bor-rod did felt worse.

    Pete November 2, 2007, 6:26 pm
  • In that case, Pete, I suggest getting some perspective on life.
    Although I like your coinage of “Bor-rod.”

    stuck working November 2, 2007, 6:29 pm
  • “I hope they both get cancer”
    Pete, I assume now that you are being completely facetious. Or that you are mntally unbalanced. Either way, you could just wish that a swarm of locusts would descend on them and cost them a crucial post-season game. Oh wait, that already happened. Forget it.
    In all seriousness, how do you type what you did above – both the gang-rape thing and now the wishing cancer on people thing and not feel a little gross about it?

    IronHorse (yf) November 2, 2007, 6:30 pm
  • Prison was exactly the perspective I needed at the time.

    Pete November 2, 2007, 6:31 pm
  • Prison has a way of unhinging people. I feel lucky that I got out after only one gang rape and at my worst, wishing cancer on people I detest.

    Pete November 2, 2007, 6:32 pm
  • FTH is going on in this thread?!?
    I think the loathing of Pedroia is pretty easy to understand… nothing more irritating than a over the top cocky pipsqueak who can actually back up his big talk. This is the precise reason that I love him, of course, but he’d probably annoy the crap out of me if he was on a rival team.

    Jackie (SF) November 2, 2007, 6:36 pm
  • You’re wrong on so many levels, but just for one… Schilling wasn’t liked, Beckett wasn’t even on sox fans radar, but they hate arod, the majority do.
    When your comparison doesn’t hold water it falls apart.

    dan November 2, 2007, 6:39 pm
  • The only thing that annoys me about so-called “pesky” players is that they usually are well-liked and irrationally well-respected but quite terrible baseball players (see Eckstein, David).

    stuck working November 2, 2007, 6:40 pm
  • SW: I agree. I wish they would all just contract some hideous disease that not only kills them and the entire race of pesky players, but also their offspring.
    And destroys the foundations of their homes so that they collapse. While the pesky players and their offspring are in them. And their pets. Kill them too.
    Then I hope Peter Gammons comes along and spits on their graves. And the spit mysteriously trickles its way through the 6 feet of dirt and the box in which they are mass-buried and lands in the holes where their eyes used to be.
    And stains their favorite shirt.
    How am I doing Pete?

    IronHorse (yf) November 2, 2007, 6:46 pm
  • As much as we all loathe Scott Boras, I’m going to have to ask that we stop wishing death and disease on him. I think we all know people who actually have been afflicted with cancer, and I don’t think any of us agree it would be something we’d actually want to wish on anyone, even jokingly. So let’s stop that right now.
    Besides which, it also violates the YFSF code of conduct re: personal attacks.
    Completely different note: The Sox picked up Wakefield’s AND Tavarez’s options today. Count me among the happy at both those decisions.

    Paul SF November 2, 2007, 6:48 pm
  • IH: if you were going to go that far, why’d you let them all get to be buried in their favorite shirts? They should all have to wear jean jackets custom-Bedazzled by David Ortiz to read “I was a lousy baseball player,” no?
    Also, is there any particular reason you think it’s a good idea to provoke Pete, when he’s already admitted to be unhinged? That seems unnecessary.

    stuck working November 2, 2007, 6:50 pm
  • In your opinion Paul does picking up the options of Wakefield and Tavarez mean Schilling won’t be back? Or that what Gammons says is true and the Sox would like to start Buck down in the minors?

    John - YF November 2, 2007, 6:51 pm
  • Paul: Very happy to see Wake’s option picked up. Not sure how I feel about Tavarez, though. I guess I’d want to know more about why he was left off the post-season roster, for starters. And I say that having no complaint at all about his performance this year, either. But what’s the upside, exactly? Maybe the idea is to actually use him as a reliever this year?

    stuck working November 2, 2007, 6:52 pm
  • SW: I never said they were actually WEARING their favorite shirts, did I? :o)
    Re: provoking Pete, I am slightly unhinged as well so taht’s my only excuse, as poor as it is. In fact, maybe it is you and I who are unhinged and Pete is the only sane one, comparing rather meaningless events in the world of sports to hideous crimes and terrible diseases, did you ever think about that?
    I suddenly feel like I am in a Kubrick movie.

    IronHorse (yf) November 2, 2007, 6:55 pm
  • IH: I hope you are in some time zone in which it’s not too early to be drunk.

    stuck working November 2, 2007, 6:57 pm
  • If nothing else, Tavarez is fairly cheap and was successful enough this year where I could see him being part of a trade.
    You just can’t have too much depth. Having four to five options for your final three to four spots (depending on the Schilling talks) is never a bad thing.
    And using Tavarez as a straight reliever slash spot starter in a Beckett/Matsuzaka/Schilling/Wakefield-Lester-Buchholz (two of three in some rough alternating pattern) rotation isn’t shabby at all.

    Paul SF November 2, 2007, 6:59 pm
  • SW: I laughed out loud at that. Actually, the sad truth is that I am not. I don’t even drink. I am operating on less than a total of 7 hours of sleep over the last 3 nights thanks to getting slammed at work so if anything I am punch drunk.

    IronHorse (yf) November 2, 2007, 7:07 pm
  • I too understand why people (not SFs) don’t like Pedroia. But saying he plays the game “wrong” is way off-base. I’d love to hear the explanation for that accusation.

    SF November 2, 2007, 7:26 pm
  • who said he played the game wrong? thats absurd….
    Sam-YF

    Anonymous November 2, 2007, 7:27 pm
  • The only thing Eckstein and Pedroia have in common is that they’re both short (and blondeish, I suppose) and they both play the infield.
    Glad to hear that Wake and Tavarez have been picked up. (Does this lend more credence to the 6 man rotation/Sunday pitcher rumors that have been floating around?)

    Jackie (SF) November 2, 2007, 7:49 pm
  • Sam:
    I was referrring to this comment below, the “wrong” part was an incorrect quote on my part. But I don’t see how Pedroia embodies the “worst” of MLB…
    “I mean, between Manny, Slappy Pedroia and A-Rod, you’ll be a Barry Bonds away from having all the worst aspects of MLB on display at Fenway.”

    SF November 2, 2007, 10:05 pm
  • Brad,
    Are you trying to be annoying? Yankee fans changed their attitude towards A-Rod when he told them to get f*cked. He’s still the MVP, he’s just an assh*le MVP.
    Michael Kay reports the Sox are very hot on A-Rod to play short. Scenario would be something like A-Rod at short and Lowell at 3rd for 2 or 3 years, and then A-Rod at 3rd for 5 or 6.
    Yankees offered A-Rod $231 million for 8 years. A-Rod walked because he wanted them to start at $350 million. That’s almost $44 million a year, versus the Yanks’ OPENING offer of almost $29 million a year.
    If the Sox would bite that big, big bullet, for the next three years they would have one of the most incredible lineups ever for the next three years if they keep Manny. Pedroia, Ellsbury, A-Rod, Ortiz, Manny, Lowell, Youk, Varitek, Drew. Sandy Koufax couldn’t get that lineup out.
    And yes, Fenway is sold out, but NESN isn’t. NESN is where the real money is.
    On the other hand, if no team comes close to what Boras is asking, you can bet he will go back to the Yankees. And if the high bidder were the Sox, willing to pay $30 million per for 5, would the Yanks match their bid, or would they write off the division title for 2 or 3 years?

    john November 3, 2007, 9:45 am
  • BTW, when I said “he” would go back to the Yanks under certain conditions, I meant Boras, not A-Rod. In other words, if the Sox were to end up the high bidder and their offer was in the same ballpark as the Yankee offer, of course Boras would probably try to get the Yankees back in the bidding, just as he went to the Yankees with the Met’s best offer to Beltran.
    Boras thinks he will get someone to pay more than $350 million for 8 years, and maybe he’s right. On the other hand, it’s not hard to imagine that the best offer will not be as good as the Yankees 8 years for $231. That would make Boras look very bad, and he would try to do something about it.
    Who knows? This is a crazy situation. A-Rod and Lowell would make the Sox awesome, but committing $350 million awesome?

    john November 3, 2007, 12:05 pm
  • “That’s almost $44 million a year, versus the Yanks’ OPENING offer of almost $29 million a year.”
    John, from what I understand of the offer, $350 would’ve been the price of the current deal plus the extension, and it included the $30 million from the Rangers. The deal would’ve been worth on average $35 per over the life of the contract, or the current $27 per over the next three years, then $38-ish after that.
    Maybe I misunderstood? But $44 million per seems insane.

    Tyrel SF November 3, 2007, 12:48 pm
  • It’s all insane.

    john November 3, 2007, 4:05 pm
  • But A-Rod is going to play somewhere next year at some price.

    john November 3, 2007, 4:05 pm
  • “It’s all insane.”
    Indeed it is.

    Tyrel SF November 3, 2007, 4:56 pm
  • http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/sports/baseball/04score.html
    this times column does a good job of disucssing some of the reasons that A-Rod may have opted out when he did without listening to the offers from the yankees. The not wanting to seem like he is avoiding Girardi angle is an interesting one.
    To me it does underline a bit of an problem the yankees find themselves in now. They will find it very difficult to go back on their repeated promises not to bid on A-Rod despite the fact that it may be in their best interests (both financial and business) to do so. I still think that they could jump back in on this if they are provided a way to save face in doing so. This could only occur if Boras has misread the market and doesnt get the offers he expects. I still believe this is a distinct possibility.
    Interestingly, the Red Sox role in the A-Rod sweepstakes could be a major factor in this. Without their presence, Boras may not see the numbers he is looking for and make a major effort to lure the yankees back into the bidding. Thus, the yankees would increase their chances of resigning A-Rod by passing on Lowell and leaving him to the sox. I guess we will have a better idea about how this will all play out over the next month once financial numbers start getting tossed around and teams start bowing out of the bidding…

    sam-YF November 3, 2007, 5:28 pm
  • “Maybe I misunderstood? But $44 million per seems insane.”
    Wait… let me think, what seems wrong with this picture? Oh yeah, I got it now, it’s ALL insane! Remember folks we are talking MILLIONS here. Seriously, A-Tool’s skill set is off the charts(though he’s clubhouse poison to my way of thinking), but the Texas Rangers were really out of their minds insane when they signed him for over a quarter of a billion dollars for 10 years.
    Insane.
    Fortunately for Red Sox fans the Sox front office wasn’t able to get A-Tool because the Players Union said he can’t take less than the contract stipulates, even if A-tool agreed to it. Eventually Texas got the Yankees to pony up but only because the Rangers were still paying some too.
    In effect what happened was the Rangers went temporarily insane, realized their mistake and tried to rid themselves of it.
    Neither the Red Sox nor the Yankees wanted to pay A-Tool what the Rangers signed him for because that figure was insane!
    So even though it is a few years later, and salaries did take a downturn for a few years after A-Tool and Manny signed their big contracts… salaries HAVE risen of late so that makes the, what is it, 27 Million that A-Tool would get next year, …lemee think oh yeah…
    still INSANE!
    In my estimation then, talk of 35 million over the life of the deal, or 38 million or 44 million per. Well, that’s insanity too… just at a much higher level!
    Having said all that, the Texas Rangers went all goggle-eyed insane for a minute or two and they are STILL paying. So, while I happen to think the $ numbers on A-Tool have been insane for a while, I just don’t want to bet the farm that some dumb-ass team will get all goggle eyed over A-Tool and pony up huge again for the schmuck.
    Heaven help them if they do it, he’ll make that team and their fans sorry, sooner, or later, that’s a solid gold
    24k promise.
    But they will have to go insane to do it, cause now the Yanks have passed and the Sox wouldn’t touch the guy if you water-boarded them for days.
    Just insane.

    Brian November 4, 2007, 12:48 am
  • Re: Slappy Pedroia — when he tried to slap the ball out of Martinez’s glove, it created some sort of reaction where all of the frustration I’d been feeling about the general two-faced attitude to Sox fans turned into pure liquid rage, especially when it was barely mentioned at all. On top of the Joba/Youkilis nonsense and the general refusal of Sox fans to acknowledge that they’re a big-market team and not scrappy underdogs, Beckett’s attitude — I’m going to stop here, because the rage bladders are inflating again. My point being: Pedroia is a good player, but the muted reaction to his slap compared to the A-Rod/Arroyo slap makes him (in my mind) symbolic of everything I dislike about to Sox fanbase. Then again, at one point I was willing to forgive A-Rod for being a b@stard because he was our ba$tard and now I’m not. Things change.

    East River Blues November 4, 2007, 8:12 pm
  • Okay, I know, you Yankees fans had to swallow a lot with that ’04 series, including the greatest choke in baseball history as well as the humiliation of the purse slap A-Tool used to knock the ball out of Bronson Arroyo’s glove.
    I can well understand how you might have lingering bitterness regarding that series, and the Red Sox successes in the wake of that historic collapse. But really, Slappy Pedroia?? It seems like a desperate and grasping attempt at schoolyard retribution.
    I’ve seen the play several times and it legitimately appears to me that he was attempting to avoid being tagged in the kisser by Martinez. While I might have wished Pedroia to have simply blocked that from happening, it is easy to see that he was not intent on trying to knock the tag or the ball away, if you follow the play past the point of contact Pedroia does not continue the downward motion of his arms. Listen, you might not want to have a baseball glove mashed in your face either, I mean look how mad it made A-Tool when Varitek did it to him! I know the angry haters WANT to see the same bush league type of play that A-Tool used on Arroyo but it just isn’t there. You see what you think you see and that’s alright, but REALLY
    I think if you asked Martinez himself he’d agree that A-Tool’s purse slap was night and day a different play. Get over it already, no one made a big deal about it at the time because it wasn’t a big deal, period.

    Brian November 5, 2007, 12:58 am
  • “the greatest choke ever”
    Now that’s my problem with SOME Sox fans – the chip on the shoulder, pessimistic, insult the other team fan.
    The Yanks gave Mo the lead a couple of times. Mo doesn’t choke, but he is human. The Sox played great and won.
    I understand 86 years of frustration, but you just won again. The choke talk is poor sportmanship.

    Anonymous November 5, 2007, 7:44 am
  • In the first place, I stated the facts, the YANKEES not Mo Rivera, suffered what is generally acknowledged as the greatest choke in baseball history in the 2004 ALCS.
    I’m sorry to bring it up, but that is where your “rage bladders” concerning Red Sox fans began to fill, no? Be honest, before that the Sox and their fans were nothing but mere annoyances from time to time, I mean I cann’t tell you how many times I heard Yankee fans laugh,…just laugh, when asked about the Yankees/Red Sox rivalry. The standard answer was who worries about the Red Sox, they always finish 2nd, a rivalry is when one team then the other finishes first.
    Feel like a rivalry yet?
    In the second place, the purse slap happened in that ’04 series… And if that series didn’t start filling your “rage bladders” well, I don’t know what would.
    Third, I did not insult the Yankees or their fans, I did however insult A-Tool, and I will forever insult A-Tool, because he is a chump who tried to climb onto the stage of the fall classic and use it as his own… that amongst other childish and egocentric acts.

    Brian November 5, 2007, 8:47 am
  • Brian are you gonna insult him if the sox sign him this winter? I highly doubt that. I almost hope the sox do sign him so i can watch guys like you backpeddle on their feelings about A-Rod when he is on your team.

    sam-YF November 5, 2007, 9:32 am
  • Brian: 2004 can definitely be described as a choke-job if only because, by the end of that series, NY was tight as hell and Boston was loose as hell. Then again, when you have won more than 25% of the World Championships over the course of a century and have built no fewer than 4 dynasties over that time, you are bound to eventually give one away.
    Your team is doing nicely working on its first dynasty – you probably need one more WS win over the next 2-3 years to deserve the title and you are well placed to get it. If I were betting I would say you probably will get it.
    And you are absoultely correct that for the first time in decades, the NY-Boston relationship actually qualifies as a rivalry. Congratulations – you are now competitive with NY. It is good to set your heights as high as you possibly can.
    But as a fan who knows a little re: NYY history, I know that those rivalries come and go – we had Detroit for a while, Philadelphia for a while, and even Baltimore. Boston is here now. We welcome you. But the only constant presence is that of the Yankees. Whether your team will still be much competition in another decade no one knows. It would be fair to say that no one knows the same re: NY, except even a cursory look at history and any un-biased follower of baseball would know who to bet on in terms of staying power.
    Either way, we should all be in for a great few years of these two teams facing off.

    IronHorse (yf) November 5, 2007, 10:12 am
  • you’re a sick puppy, brian, i give full credit to the Sox in ’04 and ’07
    “i’m a lover, not a hater”
    A Yankee fan for 25 years

    Anonymous November 5, 2007, 12:07 pm
  • Your team is doing nicely working on its first dynasty – you probably need one more WS win over the next 2-3 years to deserve the title and you are well placed to get it.
    IH, don’t forget the Sox won 5 of the first 15 World Series, 33%. I think that qualifies as a Dynasty ;-)
    Also Brian, the “choke” thing happened 3 years ago. You bringing it up is no better than a Yankee fan screaming “Got rings??!!!!!”

    Atheose November 5, 2007, 12:13 pm
  • Yeah, this conversation is pointless, guys. Let’s drop it.

    Paul SF November 5, 2007, 12:16 pm
  • See, that’s the thing Atheose, I brought it up in reference to the Re: Slappy Pedroia comment earlier. The whole of the vehemence regarding what Pedroia did or did not do to Martinez’ glove stems from the humiliating circumstances of A-Tool purse slapping Arroyo in that ALCS and the backlash from Red Sox fans.
    NOTHING else…
    And listen, I don’t know about you, but when somebody starts writing stuff like
    “all of the frustration I’d been feeling about the general two-faced attitude to Sox fans turned into pure liquid rage”
    and…
    “I’m going to stop here, because the rage bladders are inflating again.”
    Especially when I firmly believe that the whole premise of his argument is wrongheaded, I have to respond.
    Seriously, I can concede a point when it is made rationally.
    For instance, I feel pretty sure that the whole Joba/Youk thing got way overblown (although a future head missile might change my mind).
    But that whole Slappy Pedroia deal is just ridiculous.
    Truthfully, as good as the Yankees had it during the Torre years, they had every reason to crow.
    I had every reason to hate that the Yankees won year after year, but I wasn’t going start bad mouthing Yankee players after they won.
    So, if you want to talk about poor sportsmanship then I think labeling Dustin Pedroia ‘Slappy’ in retaliation for what A-Tool did in ’04 (cause it’s not based on the tag at first base by Martinez), AND do it after the Red Sox just won the Championship, sounds like a poor sport to me.
    And if they sign A-Tool, the Red Sox front office just isn’t as astute as I believe they are. A-Tool is always going to be A-Tool for me, even if the Sox go insane and get him, he’s a jerk and that won’t change no matter what uni he wears.

    Brian November 5, 2007, 10:57 pm
  • Mike lowell 3rd, Arod ss , dustin 2nd , youklis 1st, manny lf , ellsbury cf and jd rf and ofcourse papi at dh now thats the dream team right there!!!!!!!!!!!!

    ozzie November 6, 2007, 9:28 pm

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