And on the Brighter Side….

The kind folks at Slate asked me to find the silver lining in last night’s unhappy affair. This, you can be quite sure, was not a fun story to write. I’m not sure I believe it even now. But hope springs eternal, right? Right??? Right???

87 comments… add one
  • Nice article. I think if you looked in the lost papers of Nostradamus you find a linking to a off year.
    The Yanks will be back, they are like Jason Vorhees and Mike Meyers combined. There are always sequels.

    Rob SF October 9, 2007, 3:03 pm
  • I saw hope springs, and will be eternally thankful that it was not eternal.

    attackgerbil October 9, 2007, 3:05 pm
  • Nice article YF.

    John - YF (Trisk) October 9, 2007, 3:09 pm
  • great article! It is true that as sad as I am today, I am looking forward to next season.

    Nick-YF October 9, 2007, 3:39 pm
  • a good article. perspective is always a welcomed thing during times like these.
    pitchers and catchers will report in about 140 days or so. (and we’ll be extra rested!)
    …man, i need a drink….

    Yankee Fan In Boston October 9, 2007, 4:31 pm
  • least it’s hockey season! Oh yeah, my Sabres are 0-2 and lost there co-captains in the offseason. Man, it could be a long winter.

    krueg October 9, 2007, 5:56 pm
  • The NYT’s Jack Curry has an article online that indicates Boras expects A-Rod to opt out.
    Here is the text of a note I just sent to Curry about the article:
    – – – – –
    Dear Mr. Curry:
    In your article today on Alex Rodriguez, you report the following statistics (which appear to have been provided by his agent, Scott Boras):
    “[… H]is value as a performer is unquestioned. He hit 54 homers, drove in 156 runs, scored 143 runs and batted .314 this season. Boras said only five players had produced 299 or more runs in a season, including Babe Ruth.”
    Unless I’m misunderstanding something, these figures overlap, making the 299 figure somewhat inflated, as follows:
    * A-Rod’s 156 RBIs includes the 54 times he drove himself in with his own home runs;
    * A-Rod’s 143 runs scored likewise includes the same 54 times he scored on his own home runs.
    So I believe it would be more accurate to state that A-Rod was responsible for 245 Yankee runs (156 + 143 – 54) this year.
    Mr. Boras’s comparison to Ruth may nevertheless still be relevant, if he computed the figures identically for the other players.
    [Sincerely, etc.]
    – – – – – –

    Hudson October 9, 2007, 11:36 pm
  • Oh, man. Nice work Hudson. I guess for Scott Boras, it’s not what the numbers actually are, but what they make you FEEL.

    doug YF October 10, 2007, 12:03 am
  • Nice article YF. I agree with everything except the bit about the Yankees being the best team in the ’06 playoffs. They had the same potempkin pitching that betrayed them this year (starters: Wang, Mussina, Pettitte, Jaret WRIGHT). The Tigers outclassed them in pitching, and had a similarly explosive offense. The Tigers led the league for most of the year, until they slipped in the second half, but they were still far better built to win it all.

    Andrew F (Sox Fan) October 10, 2007, 12:04 am
  • Haven’t seen this posted anywhere else on the site, but it looks like Mo is testing the waters…

    Tyrel SF October 10, 2007, 1:00 am
  • Very good article, Mark. I’m surprised they didn’t include a link back here? Or did I miss it? Just seems like a good advert for this little operation.

    Pete October 10, 2007, 5:24 am
  • Great article — thanks.
    This season reminds me a lot of 1995 — the lousy start, the race to the finish. Not nearly as thrilling an ending as extra innings in the fifth and deciding game. And not nearly as fun (thanks to George’s ridiculous expectations). But then, as now, the team ran out of reliable arms when things got tough. It was Blackjack in extras then, Viz now. Neither team had a clear ace on their thin pitching staffs.
    The loss to the Mariners (and some plucky pinch runner named A-Rod) turned out to be an important stop on the journey to dynasty. It hurt at the time, especially to see Donny Baseball go out without a ring. The next spring Joe arrived. Things turned magical for a time.
    Joba, Hughes, and Kennedy are poised to take over a new era. I think Jeter’s got another run or two in him. Good things loom.

    Zooboy October 10, 2007, 10:31 am
  • I havent seen it here yet but Gammons wrote on his blog yesterday that there has already been a phone conversation with the Twins about who in addition to Wang they would want for Santana.
    As much as I love Wang, Id do this in a second.

    Sam-YF October 10, 2007, 11:02 am
  • Sam: Santana, Pettitte, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy. droooolllll…..
    Please don’t anyone jump on how unlikely this is – I know there are 30 million reasons why such a thing would never work out that way. I just enjoyed typing it. With no season left I just need the light at the end of the tunnel.

    IronHorse (yf) October 10, 2007, 11:28 am
  • “Santana, Pettitte, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy. droooolllll…..”
    That’s a nice thought – I think I’ll sign off on baseball for the rest of the day and enjoy it!

    Andrews October 10, 2007, 11:38 am
  • PLEASE get Santana!!! As long as they don’t have to part with Joba…

    krueg October 10, 2007, 11:53 am
  • IH- Its really not that unreasonable of a trade to make. Sure there are other teams that could offer lots too but Wang is a damn good trading chip as he is proven at the MLB level. I guess it depends on how much more they want. Add in Melky and sign Torii?
    Id do that too!

    Sam-YF October 10, 2007, 12:10 pm
  • Wang on artificial turf would concern me if I were the Twins. His bizarre home/away splits would also concern me if I were anyone.
    But he is young and should be around a long time. They would almost certainly want another large piece(s), and what piece they would want will be all-important. But yeah. Drool drool and drool. And I trust Gammons’ rumors about as much as anyone’s.

    IronHorse (yf) October 10, 2007, 12:22 pm
  • The Twins surely will play the Sox and Yanks against each other and make a killing off one of our teams. And either team will gladly give it up, I think.
    The Twins will want Melky Cabrera from the Yanks, along with Wang and Hughes or Chamberlain (or both). They’ll want Crisp, Buchholz and Lester (at least) from the Sox.

    Paul SF October 10, 2007, 12:22 pm
  • I dont see the yankees giving up Melky and more than 1 of the 3 young pitchers. I also dont see them trading Hughes or Joba.
    I think that a trade involving Melky, Wang, and another prospect or two is more realistic. I think the Sox would think along these same lines.

    Sam-YF October 10, 2007, 12:26 pm
  • The Twins surely will play the Sox and Yanks against each other and make a killing off one of our teams.
    Add the Mets into that equation, too, considering their pitching woes and youth. Milledge, Humber, Pelfrey, etc. Forget the Sox, just play the Mets and Yanks off each other, as they’ve both come off regular and post-season failures of significant import, have meddling owners, sports networks, and tons of lettuce.

    SF October 10, 2007, 12:27 pm
  • I can understand the Hughes/Joba love, but Kennedy seems like a perfect candidate for the “sell high” strategy. Will Kennedy, who exceeded all expectations, ever be worth more in an off-season, considering it would be highly unlikely the Yankees would go into a season with three unproven guys in the rotation? Personally it seems to me that Kennedy is the guy more likely to move: if he can bring you a stud like Santana you live with the risk that he excels elsewhere and you still have Phil/Joba in the fold along with Santana.

    SF October 10, 2007, 12:33 pm
  • I dont see the yankees giving up Melky and more than 1 of the 3 young pitchers. I also dont see them trading Hughes or Joba.
    Then the trade won’t happen. The Twins are losing Hunter so they’ll need a ML-ready replacement. They’ll be losing Santana, so again they’ll need a ML-ready replacement. Then they’ll want at least one Grade-A pitching prospect. Cabrera, Wang and Kennedy might get that done, but I’d guess the Twins could get more from the Mets or even the Sox unless the Yanks trade Hughes or Chamberlain.
    The Yanks have the advantage in being able to give up Wang. The Sox have no comparable young pitcher who is tradeable, so they’d have to make it up by trading two or more prospects (Lester and Buchholz and soemone lower in the org?). Cabrera also beats Crisp, at least based on the last two years, so maybe the Twins would accept less from the Yanks. But I still think Hughes and/or Chamberlain will be the deal-breakers. If the Yanks don’t give up at least one, the Twins will not give up Santana.

    Paul SF October 10, 2007, 12:36 pm
  • I think the Yankees would have to throw in 2 out of the big 3 rookie pitchers–Hughes, Joba or Kennedy. I don’t think the Twins would take anything less, unless Melky came along.

    Atheose October 10, 2007, 12:38 pm
  • Paul, if the price is Wang and Hughes and Melky I’d say no.
    If it is Wang and Melky and a top pitching prospect (Horne??), I’d say yes.
    Moreover, the price you cite for Boston (Crisp, Bucholz, Lester) seems to me significantly cheaper than the one you cite for NY (Wang, Melky, and Hughes OR Chamberlain). While some possible parallel can be drawn between Bucholz and Hughes/Chamberlain, Lester does not come close to Wang.
    And on Crisp vs. Melky, they have remarkably similar career numbers, but Melky is both 5 years younger and clearly still developing. Coco is pretty much where he is likely to be I think.

    IronHorse (yf) October 10, 2007, 12:42 pm
  • I got it I got it!!!! Melky, Wang, and Igawa! (jk)

    IronHorse (yf) October 10, 2007, 12:44 pm
  • I agree with IH. It really depends on how desperate the Twins are to trade Santana. If they decide he has to go, I think a package of two very good proven MLB players (Wang and Melky) plus a few high level pitching prospects (Kennedy, Horne, etc) is reasonable and will be tough to beat. Sure the twins will ask for Hughes and Joba but if the yankees say they arent available under any circumstances, I think they can still put together a very competitive offer.
    I think they have much more to offer than the sox in this regard. Melky’s age and price make him considerably more attractive than Crisp. The sox are also not as desperate for an ace as we (and the mets) are, so it doesnt make as much sense to put together a huge pacakge.

    Sam-YF October 10, 2007, 12:58 pm
  • Let Melky go…sign Rowand for CF. Melky, Kennedy and Wang for Santana would make me happy. If they can somehow get Santana and keep both Hughes and Joba, that would be quite a deal by Cash!

    krueg October 10, 2007, 12:58 pm
  • I think a combination of Wang, Melky and Kennedy would work.
    Kennedy is the lesser of the three rookie pitchers, he’s at high trade value after pitching well at the end of the season, and the Yankees want Santana bad. This last series has shown that they need better starting pitching, and Steinbrenner will do what it takes to get Santana. Unfortunately.
    And you’re right on Crisp vs Melky. I love Coco to death but I’d take Melky in a heartbeat.

    Atheose October 10, 2007, 1:04 pm
  • I love Aaron Rowand. He can run hard enough into walls to account for all the walls from which Abreu will be cringing.
    And he’d be the closest thing to Paul O’Neill redux as I can think of in the game right now…and then the 1995 parallel will be complete (except for the up and coming catcher getting ready to take over for the wiley vet…).
    Yes, I was the one arguing thht we YFs stop living in teh past of ’96 – ’00, so I will stop it now.

    IronHorse (yf) October 10, 2007, 1:06 pm
  • Keep in mind Sam-YF there are plenty of other teams that would be willing to trade more to get Santana than the Sox and Yanks are willing to give. They’re desperate to get rid of him, yes, but they’re driving the deal.

    Atheose October 10, 2007, 1:13 pm
  • OK, revamped a bit then to allow for Kennedy to go: Santana, Pettitte, Hughes, Joba, Mussina. Roar.

    IronHorse (yf) October 10, 2007, 1:17 pm
  • Atheose-
    I realize of course there are other teams but I dont think there are quite so many that will be in play for a variety of reasons:
    1) Santana has a no-trade clause, he will be giving the twins a list of teams he can be traded to.
    2) I assume the Twins will want at least some Major league ready talent. Not too many teams will have this to offer, esp a front of the rotation starter.
    3) The team that trades for him will likely only do so if they can sign an extension. This wont be cheap of course, further limiting the teams that can compete for him.
    I think this will come down to the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, and another surprise team. That is if it happens at all.

    Sam-YF October 10, 2007, 1:20 pm
  • santana… am i daydreaming about trades already? wow.
    i’d give wang, melky, kennedy, and another prospect for santana. (two lower level guys if that’s what it took.) as stated above, pulling off a trade for santana and holding onto hughes and joba would be a huge coup.
    as for melky vs. coco, melky’s paycheck is probably more attractive to the twins. (coco makes ~$5M a year through ’09.)
    santana in the bronx would be amazing.

    Yankee Fan In Boston October 10, 2007, 1:32 pm
  • I don’t think we can discuss this in terms of Kennedy’s trade value right now.
    Unless I’ve missed something, no one is talking about anything happening unless and until Minnesota drops out of serious ’08 post-season consideration.
    If that’s the case, then the trade values of the people we are throwing around, especially the least-proven-Kennedy, may change significantly in the meantime.
    Or is there serious talk in Minnesota of something happening even sooner? My brother, a Yankee fanatic, lives in Minnesota…I’ll get him to start digging for dirt.

    IronHorse (yf) October 10, 2007, 1:46 pm
  • Really, if either team could pull this trade off and not lose Joba, Hughes, Ellsbury, Buchholz, et al., it’s a freaking robbery.
    Minny knows exactly what they have, how important he would be, and isn’t going to settle for more than they can get. If it’s the Yankees, they’re going to lose either Joba or Hughes in addtion to Melky and probably another lower level guy. If it’s the Sox, they’re going to lose Ellsbury, Buchholz, Delcarmen, or any host of other guys that we hear about.
    Santana isn’t coming cheap to either, or any team involved.
    No way do New York or Boston get away with a good deal here – and if it comes to it, Minny will just hold onto him until the trade deadline and fleece someone then.
    I pass on this if I’m Boston. Yeah, he’s great, but he’s not worth four top players from either organization. I think Crisp is as good as gone now, so trading Ellsbury isn’t an option for them, and without him, I don’t think they get it done. Just like I don’t think NY gives up Joba or Hughes, and without them, they don’t have the parts either. Kennedy isn’t even in this conversation, and really, like Lester, he’s probably the throw in to seal the deal.

    Brad October 10, 2007, 1:56 pm
  • And again, I’m considering the fact that Wang, when not in the Bronx, is pretty mediocre. If I’m Minny, I don’t give a crap about getting Wang; as good as he is for New York, he’s shown nothing (including last week) that would indicate he could survive outside of Yankee stadium, and especially on turf at the same level..
    When is Wang arbitration eligible? Minny isn’t going to pay the going rate for 38 wins in two years when that time comes.

    Brad October 10, 2007, 2:00 pm
  • And again, the Angels will probably be in the talks too with Kendrick and others.

    Brad October 10, 2007, 2:01 pm
  • Giving up all that talent for one pitcher is a HUGE, HUGE risk. If I’m a GM, I have to really think about it…

    Brad October 10, 2007, 2:03 pm
  • So who plays third in the Bronx!?

    SF October 10, 2007, 2:08 pm
  • IH- My understanding of the situation is that the twins will be looking to move him this offseason. I guess its believed that his value will be more now then it would be mid-season where he would be a 3 month rental only. I think if they could get the right package this winter they wouldnt hesitate.
    Brad- We all realize you and others are pretty down on Wang but there are many in Baseball who like him alot. The Twins very well may be part of that group. I do agree with your point about the turf though. That was the first thing that went through my mind when i read this rumor. Common sense says a ground ball pitcher wouldnt be as good on turf but has anybody seen studies about this?
    (id be surprised if it wasnt the case)

    Sam-YF October 10, 2007, 2:13 pm
  • aww… when the sox’s season is done, daydreams will befall RSN as well.
    let us have this diversion. you have the playoffs.

    Yankee Fan In Boston October 10, 2007, 2:13 pm
  • SF – Lowell will be our 3b if arod walks.

    Sam-YF October 10, 2007, 2:16 pm
  • I have nothing to say. Just wanted to break-up the Brad posts. (just joking)
    On Wang, his trade value too can change by the time a Santana deal is getting considered. If he is on his way to another 19-win-season and if his non-Yankee stadium starts are strong, the issue you raise, not to mention the hideous ’07 post-season, will not be nearly as much of a consideration.
    Similarly, you can’t say Kennedy isn’t in the conversation. He had a great few performances this year. Depending on how he does first half of ’08, his trade value could get stronger or plummet. But you can’t equate him (having pitched only 3 games to a 1.89 ERA) with a guy like Lester, who has pitched 27 games (to a 4.68 ERA). More time is needed to gauge him. Neither has been around long, but the buzz around Kennedy is certainly stronger and come trade deadlnie next year, it could have died down consideratbly or continued to grow.

    IronHorse (yf) October 10, 2007, 2:17 pm
  • “If it’s the Yankees, they’re going to lose either Joba or Hughes in addtion to Melky and probably another lower level guy. If it’s the Sox, they’re going to lose Ellsbury, Buchholz, Delcarmen, or any host of other guys that we hear about.”
    As great as he is, Brad, I think you’re overestimating what the Twins can get for a one year rental. If Santana is traded, I doubt he signs an extension with the new club – I’m sure his agent is drooling over the potential FA contract.

    Anonymous October 10, 2007, 2:21 pm
  • me

    Andrews October 10, 2007, 2:22 pm
  • Sam, just saw your post re: possible winter deal. Now that is interesting.
    Incidentally, Brad, I think looking at this whole thing, or at any deal, as “team B will never get a good deal because what team A has is so compelling” makes little sense. What is a good deal is completely relative to what different teams need. It is certainly possible that Minnesota could make a deal that is perfect for their needs of an excellent OF and a couple strong starters while the deal is also good for the other side (Yanks or whoever else) that needs an ace. If this weren’t the case, there would never be any trade’s made because every player would just get a number value and no team would, for instance, give up a number 25 for a number 27.

    IronHorse (yf) October 10, 2007, 2:23 pm
  • Andews agreed but i dont think any of team would make a trade for Johan without an extension. Who is his agent? If its not Boras there is a chance he’d sign one.

    Sam-YF October 10, 2007, 2:25 pm
  • Sam, I’m not down on him, but the reality of the situation is very easy to see. He’s substantially better in the Bronx, and while I’ve never seen any studies on grass v. turf, I can’t imagine that a pitcher who lets nearly every ball into play would be as successful in that scenario. I think perhaps a look at the results from Wang, Lowe, and other groundball pitchers on turf (like Toronto and Minny) v. grass against the same team would suffice, though the sample size is probably pretty small.

    Brad October 10, 2007, 2:26 pm
  • peter greenberg is santana’s agent.

    Yankee Fan In Boston October 10, 2007, 2:28 pm
  • did i hear a while ago that the twins are getting a new outdoor ballpark? i could be wrong. i will now scurry to check.

    Yankee Fan In Boston October 10, 2007, 2:29 pm
  • Sam-YF October 10, 2007, 2:31 pm
  • new minnesota ballpark. looks like grass.

    Yankee Fan In Boston October 10, 2007, 2:31 pm
  • Sorry about that blank post.
    Great point YFIB. They are building an outdoor, natural grass park. I guess that raises Wang’s value a bit for them!

    Sam-YF October 10, 2007, 2:32 pm
  • I agree with you, IH. But, I also think that Minny knows that they’re fully able to use Santana for 16 or so starts before they HAVE to trade him, so if they aren’t able to fleece someone in December, they’re certainly going to be able to in July.
    Either way, I think you’re overestimating Kennedy’s worth now, though I could be wrong. His stuff isn’t amazing, and his fastball isn’t flameworthy (though others have proven that neither of these attributes are required to succeed).
    Again, if any team can do it without losing their #1, it’s a steal. If the Yanks can keep both Hughes and Joba, it’s a great deal for them no matter who is given up after that. Same for the Red Sox. If they are able to keep Ellsbury and Buchholz, it’s a grand slam. I just don’t see it happening this winter..
    Also, if we’re going to compare the respective numbers of Kennedy and Lester, we at least have to mention, in passing, that one of them was out with cancer and spent the entire year getting healthy on the mound. Not that I think you were hammering at Lester, but neither of them are future aces for either team.

    Brad October 10, 2007, 2:34 pm
  • The way I see it, the Yanks and Twins have a fit here – Melky fills a big need, and cheaply. They might think it makes sense to move Johan for Wang and Kennedy (also young and cheap), with Liriano’s return imminent.

    Andrews October 10, 2007, 2:34 pm
  • if i had needed to, i would have invented reasons to hold onto this dream, sam.
    (the first beam was put up last week. still a ways off… but think long term, twinkies!)

    Yankee Fan In Boston October 10, 2007, 2:34 pm
  • Agreed on Wang on grass. Though, either way I don’t want him pitching for me in the playoffs:)

    Brad October 10, 2007, 2:35 pm
  • brad, any speculation about a trade this offseason is likely fallout from a buster olney article i remember hearing about suggesting the possibility.
    i didn’t read it, so i don’t know what he was basing that on, but i choose to believe that it was rock solid fact and firsthand conversation. (but i doubt it.)

    Yankee Fan In Boston October 10, 2007, 2:36 pm
  • will the twins new outdoor park have turf?

    YF October 10, 2007, 2:40 pm
  • The new park will open in 2010

    Andrews October 10, 2007, 2:42 pm
  • it will indeed have grass.

    Yankee Fan In Boston October 10, 2007, 2:43 pm
  • uh… you’d “get rid of him”, too if you could get santana.
    this isn’t knee jerk reaction.
    you think he’s a #4 or 5… wouldn’t you trade wakefield for santana?

    Yankee Fan In Boston October 10, 2007, 2:47 pm
  • (not that i think he’s a 4 or 5… but wouldn’t you trade schilling for santana?… he’s johan santana for the love of god.)

    Yankee Fan In Boston October 10, 2007, 2:50 pm
  • This stems from a post by Peter Gammons on his blog. Its a long way off but with 140 days to P&C its worth a discussion for us.

    Sam-YF October 10, 2007, 2:53 pm
  • Someone delete that comment by you know who please?

    Sam-YF October 10, 2007, 2:53 pm
  • Hey BANG-boy: you have a different site in mind – 2 weeks ago no one here said anything about Wang being a shoo-in for the CY. Though since you are new to this site I will catch you up on related things that happened:
    There was a total moron saying things about how Posada never catches Mussina, how Posada never started an all-star game, how Carlton Fisk is already dead, how we still live in the dead ball era, how Boston would sweep two series vs. NY that they ended up going 1-5 in, and displaying total ignorance about the game of baseball.
    Predictably, this guy had no support from anyone, including fellow-fans of his team. Eventually he was booted. And then get this, he kept coming back under a different name because he has nowhere else to go!! I think he wasn’t breastfed or something.
    It was really sad. I heard he joined a circus.

    IronHorse (yf) October 10, 2007, 2:58 pm
  • The noose tightens. Or loosens. Who knows…
    Rivera wants Torre back
    October 10, 2007
    NEW YORK –Mariano Rivera isn’t happy that Joe Torre might be out as manager of the New York Yankees and said the team’s decision will be factored into whether he returns.
    “I don’t feel good about it,” Rivera said Wednesday, two days after the Yankees were eliminated from the playoffs. “I don’t see why they’re even thinking (about letting Torre go). I wish he’s back, definitely. If you ask me what I would want, I want him back.”
    Rivera’s contract also is expiring and he is eligible to become a free agent. He said whether Torre returns will help determine whether he remains with the Yankees.
    “It might do a lot of it,” he said. “I mean, I’ve been with Joe for so many years, and the kind of person he has been for me and for my teammates. It’s been great. The thing is that I don’t see why they have to put him in this position.”

    SF October 10, 2007, 2:58 pm
  • SF: interesting article. The Torre-love from the players is unmatched and really extraordinary. On the airwaves here in NY simialr quotes and comments from all kind of players keep coming out every day. The respect and loyalty this guy has built up from everyone is pretty impressive.

    IronHorse (yf) October 10, 2007, 3:02 pm
  • This is one of the most frustrating parts of the Joe Torre issue to me. I dont like that the yankees cant make a baseball decision based on if they think that Torre is the best choice next year and beyond. I understand the loyalty of the players to him but I feel that this points too much power in his hands. On the other side you have the boss running his mouth and the whole if we dont win a WS its a failure BS. This should basically be Cashman’s decision and it should be baseball based. I guess thats just wishful thinking in Yankeeland.

    Sam-YF October 10, 2007, 3:03 pm
  • PS- Mo will come back if the yankees offer him the right amount of money before even testing the market. He said he’d listen to offers from us before testing the market. The yanks will do the right thing here for sure. Especially with the chance that Arod is out. They cant handle all of the big name stars fleeing at once. That would be a disaster.

    Sam-YF October 10, 2007, 3:04 pm
  • Wasn’t Mo considering retirement a couple seasons ago? I’m curious whether he’d really go to another team or just head back to Panama, assuming the Yankees fire Torre and can’t retain his services.

    Jackie (SF) October 10, 2007, 3:06 pm
  • well, I didn’t see SF post the article here, so I did a little write up above this post about it. Oops!

    Nick-YF October 10, 2007, 3:08 pm
  • The real question: if Mo goes, does Sandman go with him?

    IronHorse (yf) October 10, 2007, 3:09 pm
  • > does Sandman go with him?
    And what if he goes to the Mets???

    attackgerbil October 10, 2007, 3:11 pm
  • Oh, IH don’t get me wrong here: I give up whatever they demand as far as position players for Santana (though I think you were responding to a post no longer available to me). I trade a position player (no matter the VORP!!!) for an ace pitcher every day of the week. But, I would be hesitant (though I would probably still do it) to trade a bunch of good young pitchers for him, though the payoff could be freaking huge.
    It’s a win-win as long as he stays healthy. He’d be a huge addition to whatever team gets him obviously, and a huge blow to the rival team, The Yankees:)
    The Yankees are in a tough position with Torre. I think so many front office people want someone to pass the blame onto for a clear regresssion of performance and progression of the payroll over the past four years, and Torre is the goat. Undeservedly passed to him as it is, he is the low man on the pole, and probably going to resign out of the frustration and media speculation or be let go, which is a mistake. If there was a clear-cut option that is better than him, it would be an easier sell to you hard-core fans of the team, but there isn’t, and you guys’ know it. Girrardi is not the answer, and neither is Mattingly. For the stablemates, it would be like your best friend all of the sudden becoming your boss – there is no level of respect for him as a superior, and probably some level of dissent among the ranks – especially those with FA tags on them this year.
    If Torre is let go, I think there is a REAL chance that some of the free agents will follow him wherever he goes. Clearly Torre said that he’s not ready to go and do nothing, which to me, means he’s going to take another job if he’s ousted. I would not be too surprised to see his very loyal team follow him wherever that is, or leave out of spite to the organization. If the fanbase doesn’t think that that is a real possibility, they’re only fooling themselves. That team loves him, and will do the right thing if he’s fired or forced to resign.

    Brad October 10, 2007, 3:18 pm
  • Brad: you’re right on my flippant comment – it wasn’t meant for you.
    And AG:
    Q: “And what if he goes to the Mets???”
    A: Enter SandmEn

    IronHorse (yf) October 10, 2007, 3:25 pm
  • the Twins new park will not have a roof! Imagine playing a World Series game in Minnesota on November 1st ….

    Ron Newman (SF) October 10, 2007, 3:28 pm
  • and by “the right thing”, I’m speculating to what the players would be thinking. Out of support of Torre, some may not come back.
    It’s a terrible mistake to not sign Torre. As much heat as the man takes for his little mistakes (that all managers make from time to time), his track record is off the chart.
    Sam, you’re right with that Stein BS. Torre should be put on a pedastal for what he accomplised this year with the injuries, the Roger distraction, the absence of a first baseman with all the tools to man the position, the huge hole the pitchers dug for him, and the absolute thrashing he took from the media for half the year.
    Yeah, they didn’t win anything, and were ousted pretty quick, but unless you buy into the “payroll shold equal production” demand from the owner and fanbase, his year was nothing short of an unbridaled success.
    Any other manager may not have been able to do what he did when you think about the focus and concentration he had to instill in veterans and rookies alike.
    He gets an A from me, not that it matters, and he should be given a huge pass.
    If anything, it’s Cashman who signs these guys who seem to go absent in the playoffs. Torre has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Roger Clemens can’t hold the bump anymore or Giambi is better suited to be a 20million dollar bench player. That’s on Brian Cashman, and his dynastic thinking.

    Brad October 10, 2007, 3:29 pm
  • I just heard that Minnesota is having their 2008 programs printed in English and Taiwanese. Should I be encouraged?
    How does one say “It’s mighty cold, eh?” in Taiwanese?

    IronHorse (yf) October 10, 2007, 3:30 pm
  • Why don’t the Mets and Yankees just trade managers?
    Seems like a TOTALLY OBVIOUS SOLUTION to me.
    Mo gets traded for Wagner + a prospect, Posada leaves for the Mets (who let LoDuca walk).
    So easy, yet so “never gonna happen”.

    SF October 10, 2007, 3:30 pm
  • brad, i think george was the one who was pushing hardest for roger clemens this time around. roger mentioned a meeting between the two of them where george supposedly whispered something in clemens’ ear that he would “never forget.”
    clemens was a monumental bust. but that was at least just as much steinbrenner’s blunder as it was ca$hman’s in my eyes.
    don’t get me started on giambi.

    Yankee Fan In Boston October 10, 2007, 3:39 pm
  • ” That’s on Brian Cashman, and his dynastic thinking.”
    Giambi is “on Cashman”???? He had very little to do with that signing, Brad – it was all George. Also, given the state of the yanks’ staff, Roger made the most sense – didn’t cost any prospects. It didn’t work out like we yf’s hoped, but it wasn’t a bad chance to take.
    If you must slam Cash, at least do it for something that was dumb – the signing of Igawa, for example.

    Andrews October 10, 2007, 3:44 pm
  • Andrews: Pavano
    And you are so right about Clemens – something opposing fans have so much trouble seeing because hatred for Clemens clouds judgement of whether it was a good move or not. It was. I doubt they would have gotten better cumulative performances from Chase Wright, Tyler Clippard, Kei Igawa, and and Jeff Karstens and I know they wouldn’t have gotten equivalent mentoring of Joba, Hughes, Kennedy, Veras, etc.

    IronHorse (yf) October 10, 2007, 3:47 pm
  • “It was really sad. I heard he joined a circus.”
    Once again, IH, you made me laugh out loud. Right about now, that’s greatly appreciated…

    Andrews October 10, 2007, 3:47 pm
  • Yeah, IH. Pavano. Ugh. UGH!

    Andrews October 10, 2007, 3:50 pm
  • You’re right, and maybe I should not have used the Giambi example. The bottom line is this: The high priced players that have been brought to NY in the past four years have not done what they were supposed to, when they are supposed to. Playoff numbers have been horrible. I’m a big enough baseball fan to realize that playoffs do not make the man, but on the same note, if a front office is going to fire a manager over playoff results, they must be forced to look in the mirror at the players they’ve supplied said manager.
    Cashman did a good job of restraint this year, and while I completely disagree with you on Roger Clemens’ performance or what he gave to the Yankees this year, I do agree with what he cost them. That is, if you feel his 18+/_ million was worth it in the end. I don’t. I think that Roger ate starts (badly) that hurt the Yankees more than it helped them, but whatever the case, it’s not on Torre.
    I can’t believe I’m supporting Torre this much, but when it’s wrong, it’s wrong. For what it’s worth, I would smile if it happened, but that’s the Red Sox fan in me – watching NY make a huge mistake.

    Brad October 10, 2007, 4:05 pm

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