Joel Sherman tweets 4 years, $66M, with a vesting fifth year.
by SF on December 29, 2009 at 3:10 pm in
General Baseball,General Red Sox · 26 comments
Best of luck, and thanks for the picks.
Brad December 29, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Met’s fans have to brething a sigh of relief now that they did SOMETHING…
krueg December 29, 2009 at 3:29 pm
I don’t know. I think most of them are smart enough to realize that Bay’s power numbers were helped by the fact that he’s a pull hitter in Fenway, and that Citi is not the same beast. That, and his defense was somewhat hidden by the wall behind him as well.
This is a horrible contract for both sides of it, and I happen to think the only reason the Mets even entertained the idea is because of what you said….they had to do something. Omar is just a horrible GM.
Brad December 29, 2009 at 3:31 pm
According to Baseball-Reference, Bay will be the 104th player to play for both the Red Sox and Mets.
I’m nowhere near as dismissive of this deal as that. Normally I’m not of the Making a Move for it’s own Sake School, but this isn’t front page padding. The Mets had a legitimate need for a corner outfielder, and for Carlos Delgado’s spot in the lineup. Bay isn’t perfect, but I doubt he’s somehow become a horrible player now that he’s not playing in Fenway.
FenSheaParkway December 29, 2009 at 3:52 pm
I never said that, FSP. I just said that he will be more exposed than he was last year. Take away some of the power that fenway provided, and all you have is a .250 hitter with slightly above average power.
Brad December 29, 2009 at 3:59 pm
I get what you are saying Brad and I’m certainly not a Mets fan but they were clamoring for something, this is something.
He’ll do well there. He’s going from the show to AAAA! ;)
krueg December 29, 2009 at 4:06 pm
I agree with Brad – this is another crappy move in a series of crappy moves by one of the worst GMs in the sport. Bay would only be a good choice for an AL team, one that can hide him in the DH spot as soon as 2011. In fact, I thought he kind of made sense for the Red Sox (although I still think he would not have been a good move for them, as I’ve stated several times), as they are losing their DH after this year. But the Mets have nowhere to hide Bay.
Everyone says Cashman isn’t actually a good GM because he always has so much money, but for an example of a GM who actually uses his money poorly, look no further than across the bay (no pun intended).
AndrewYF December 29, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Sorry Brad, I wasn’t trying to misquote you, despite our mutual use of ‘horrible.’ It just seems to me that somewhere in the past couple months, the CW on Bay has gone more negative than he deserves. This signing didn’t make me jump for joy, but I’d rather have Bay than the status quo.
FenSheaParkway December 30, 2009 at 1:45 am
No prob, FSP. I just think that he would have been a lot better in other parks than Citi. I think that’s a LF that will expose his weaknesses more than many would, and in the end, this will look bad/mediocre for a lot of guys. Like Johnny Damon without the Yankee LF porch – it’s just not gonna look as good in the end..
Brad December 30, 2009 at 8:33 am
i really wanted to find a reason to chastise the sox for letting bay get away, but i can’t…i agree with you brad…if ever a guy benefitted from the park he played in it was bay…then there were the inevitable comparisons to manny almost from the time he got to fenway in mid-08…well, maybe not comparisons so much as his personality and clutch hitting made the good riddance to manny more complete and satisfying…i remember a lot of my sox fan friends, including some here, say things like “who needs manny, we got bay”…defense?…not a big deal at the time, he was replacing manny…i’m sure someone can trot out some stats that show he was just as good on the road, minimizing the fenway effect, but whatever, he seemed to be a good fit for the sox, and he was a good player, even before he got to the sox…he simply wanted too much money for a guy that shows signs that he may fizzle before a 4 or 5 year contract is up…we’ll see, but i think theo made the right call on this one…that, and i’m learning that draft picks are a good thing…
dc December 30, 2009 at 9:37 am
I would have liked his bat in the Sox lineup, but I have to agree that Citifield is probably not going to be a great fit for Bay. It’ll be an interesting measuring stick for what happened to David Wright’s power numbers last year – player or park?
At least he’s not wearing pinstripes ;) (or Yankee pinstripes, anyway)
ponch - sf December 30, 2009 at 10:07 am
” It just seems to me that somewhere in the past couple months, the CW on Bay has gone more negative than he deserves”
Human nature I think…when he’s “our guy” he’s awesome, when he leaves us he “wasn’t that good anyhow”. The guy is a solid player and he’s going to be good for the Mets. It’s just a little painful for some that he seemingly shunned the Sox. Human nature.
krueg December 30, 2009 at 11:48 am
I think this is a move the Mets had to make. I don’t think Jason Bay is the best fit, nor do I think he’s a true superstar in the peak of his career, but the Mets and Omar Minaya needed to do something. Sure his defense is below average and his power may not translate to Citi Field (Whose Does?) but he’s something for Mets fans to get excited about. Not all fans read Fangraphs or know what BPV or RAR are. Bay is a name and a face, that most fans can recognize. Living here in Yankee Country, the Mets and Minaya take a BEATING daily for the direction they have taken. Bad contracts like Oliver Perez, Luis Castillo, etc…have brought this fan base down. I didn’t want the Yankees to sign Bay, but I certainly understand why the Mets did. Holliday was too expensive and in the end he will most likely end up in STL. Bay was the next best player available after Holliday and the Mets were able to land him. Sure years 3 and 4 might be an adventure in LF, but the all teams take on risky contracts from time to time to benefit the short term (look at Varitek, Posada, etc…).
One thing to look at that I was thinking about was can the defense of Beltran and Frenchy offset that of Bay? Beltran and Frenchy are pretty good OF’s, is having one weak link really all that bad, especially if he contributes a significant amount offensively?
I am not a Minaya fan, but I won’t hate on him for this move at all. Now they need a 1Bman, Catcher and a SP or 2 and they are right in the thick of the NL race.
John - YF December 30, 2009 at 11:48 am
“Not all fans read Fangraphs or know what BPV or RAR are.”
krueg December 30, 2009 at 11:51 am
Krueg you don’t need to, you have the fever and that’s all that matters! You just need to get your Reed Johnson/Brett Gardner rant ready for those gamers!
John - YF December 30, 2009 at 11:55 am
I’m retarded for the Yankees! ;)
Funny you mention Reed Johnson…LOVE THE GUY!!!
I went to see a Jays vs Rays game in St. Pete when I moved there in 2000. (yes, a barnburner between two AWESOME teams, not. Had a Canuck roommate) We sat in the LF bleachers and the guy caught EVERYTHING, even hit a HR. I’ve kept an eye on him ever since.
I love his hustle, love his D, I’m all about the guy. We have PLENTY of O-fense.
krueg December 30, 2009 at 12:07 pm
Not me. I’ve never been a Bay fanboy – look it up. I’ve wanted him to sign elsewhere since June, when he was swapping .220 and .350 months. I’m happy he’s gone, and that’s not human nature, it’s having eyeballs.
We’ll see I guess, but I’m glad he’s gone and that he didn’t accept the offer. I think not signing Bay helps us next year for sure when Crawford hits the market.
Brad December 30, 2009 at 12:14 pm
Wasn’t talking about you in particular Brad…the world doesn’t revolve around you brother! ;)
krueg December 30, 2009 at 12:34 pm
P.S. Carl’s coming to the Yankees, don’t get your hopes up!!! :)
krueg December 30, 2009 at 12:36 pm
dc December 30, 2009 at 1:07 pm
P.S. Carl’s coming to the Yankees, don’t get your hopes up!!! :)
Oh, I don’t doubt that for one second. I hold no reservation towards how absolute that statement is at all. But, I do know the chance exists, so I’ll hold comment on that until it happens. Who knows…He could love tampa..hahahahahahahahaha.
Brad December 30, 2009 at 2:17 pm
He could love tampa..hahahahahahahahaha
Or he could end up in Washington with Johnny Damon!!!
krueg December 30, 2009 at 3:29 pm
i hear lowell’s surgery was successful…of course there’s the not so little matter of 6-8 weeks of rehab, but maybe the trade to texas will be rekindled at some point…
i wonder why we keep hearing stuff about adrian gonzalez to the sox…one version is a 3 way with the cubs with some combination of ellsbury and buchholtz leaving the sox…the sox at least have said no names have been discussed…somebody wants to see this happen, but it appears to be largely media-fueled…gee, what a surprise…olney over on espn suggests that the padres are discussing a possible contract extension that would keep gonz in san diego through ’11…but then he says that june and july ['10] will bring a bidding war between the sox, mets, and mariners…rumors seem like such a waste of energy…
dc December 31, 2009 at 9:27 am
I am not a Mets fan. But I can’t agree with hyperbolic anti-Minaya senitments that he is “horrible” or even that he uses his money poorly.
Minaya became GM prior to the 2005 season, when the Mets were coming off 3 losing seasons in a row in which they finished 4th, last, and last in the NL East.
He immediately acquired or made deals for guys that transformed the Mets into a serious contender and could very easily have made for a championship team if not for horrible collapses two seasons in a row followed by horrendous luck with injuries last season.
He engineered an ’05 team that added 12 wins over the previous season and an ’06 team that ran away with the NL East by a double-digit-game margin – winning as many games as any team in the majors that year. Then came the two collapse years in a row in ’07 and ’08 followed by the ’09 injury-plagued season.
He added Beltran, Wagner, Delgado, Lo Duca, et al and – though I don’t have time to look up the specifics right now – I am fairly certain he brought the Mets that ’05-’08 level of regular-season success without ballooning their payroll. I recall this because i still remember the unflattering comparisons to the Yankee payroll that my met-fan family and friends were making at the time.
To address the biggest missing piece – starting pitching – he landed Santana in ’08 for a group of players in exchange that – so far – have done next to nothing in Minnesota. A horrible GM would not have pulled that off.
And when the bullpen woes (together with very unclutch performances) yielded two terrible late-season collapses in a row, he landed both Putz and K-Rod prior to last season.
Going into last season there was every reasons to beilieve that the Mets had what they needed to win the NL East again. Injuries and a faster-than-expected deterioration in guys like Delgado destroyed them.
Yes, as GM he is responsible for the failures as well as the successes and he has to own those late-season collapses as much as anyone in the Mets FO (though not as much, ultimately, as the players on the field). Virtually no one agreed with the way he handled the firing of Willie Randolph and many of Minaya’s moves set the Mets up for success in the 2006-2009 seasons – with age now becoming a factor and exposing gaps at multiple positions that are frankly hard to fill given this year’s FA class. The guy has to own the fact that the Mets are now a place that a lot of players DON’T want to go to because they seem to be on the wrong side of a window of opportunity that was only really open for a couple years.
But to say this guy is a horrible GM or can’t manage the team’s money is in my view unjustified. For truly horrible GMs, look at guys who never get their teams in the late-September-contending position that Minaya got the Mets in over his first 4 years as their GM.
IronHorse (YF) December 31, 2009 at 9:37 am
IH, I think the major problem with Minaya is that he’s a GM in New York, in a HUGE market, with money to spend. GM’s in New York, LA, Chicago, etc…Big baseball towns and markets have big expectations to meet.
Minaya has made some very smart moves over his tenure: Santana, signing Wright and Reyes to long term deals, trading for Putz, etc…His trade skills are very good. Heck looking back now, he robbed Minnesota. My major problem with Minaya is his ability to build a roster and the free agents he signs. Oliver Perez will make $12 million next year. Who thinks Oliver Perez will earn that $12 million? Imagine if the Mets didn’t have that on the books, we could be talking about Bay AND Lackey in Citi Field right now. In addition the K-Rod contract was ridiculous. By all reports the Mets bid against themselves and only themselves. In 2012 K-Rod will make $17.25 Million…Luis Castillo signed to an extension through 2011 at $6 Million per season. Forget the money, they have lost out on free agent 2Bman that are far better than Castillo simply because Minaya and his team decided to extend a mediocre, no power, injured 2Bman. I put together a comp from the Yankees pitching staff vs the Mets ’09 staff and how the money was spent. I will post it later, I put it together last year, but it shows just how poorly Minaya spends/allocates money on his roster.
John - YF December 31, 2009 at 10:12 am
Thanks John – I look forward to your Yankee-met comparison post, not least of whcih because I’m sure it will give me added ammunition vs. my Met-fan extended-family members.
Just to be clear, I don’t think Minaya is a great GM – and I am fairly certain that there are several – most notably for this sight, Cashman and Epstein, who would compare very favorably to him. I’m sure you are right that he has locked up some average or mediocre players for longer than he should have and I think he traded away some young pitching talent from the Mets farm system that could have helped them in the pen and thereby might have staved off the late-season collapses. It’s just that I think FO people are so quickly branded geniuses or morons and I think Minaya is a perfect example of a guy who is neither. I’d argue he is slightly above average- no better and no worse.
IronHorse (YF) December 31, 2009 at 10:37 am
Leave a Comment
Previous post: Updated Pitching Comparison
Next post: YFSF Auld Lang Syne
Last updated: 09/30/2013