Beat That Horse. Beat It!

“Maybe Soriano works out fine. But Cashman being nudged out of roster building by Hal + Levine not a great sign for the Yankees.”
Nudged out? Why because in this one documented instance Cashman wasn’t on board with the decision? If Cashman didn’t come out and make his statement re: not trading a pick for Soriano we might have never known about the disconnect on this matter. Try as he might this is simply not a misinformed, crippling decision. They didn’t sign Steve Karsay, they signed a top line, legit closer. If Yu Darvish decided tomorrow he wants to come to the US and pitch would the $35M they gave to Soriano stop them? NO. Signing Soriano didn’t prevent the Yankees from anything and it won’t prevent them from signing anyone next year, or the year after.
“$35 million and a 1st round pick for any set-up man is not good long-term business. Those sort of deals did them in post 2000.”
A set-up man? Really, didn’t this “set-up” man save a boat load of games last year? He’s not Tony Womack, he’s a front end top of the line relief pitcher that could close for most teams. Was it a need, NO, but it certainly isn’t the bad decision he’s making it out to be.
“Autonomy also important for Cashman, which he had under Big Stein. If Hal wants a puppet, Cash ain’t it. Interesting to watch.”
It’s one FA! He’s a puppet over one move? How many people haven’t made a decision they didn’t believe in simply because their boss was behind it? I agree, I want Cash making most if not all decisions, but it wasn’t like Hal tried to sign Gary Sheffield! Relax.

God, I want Hank to be in charge.
So. F*cking. Bad.

To me, the strangest revelation is that Cashman didn’t even negotiate the contract. Levine did. Which probably explains how the deal ended up costing so much money despite there appearing to be very little market for Soriano’s services. But even if Cashman disagreed with the decision to go after Soriano, wouldn’t it still make sense for him to negotiate the best deal possible, i.e., mitigate the “damage” from signing him, so to speak? I could think of a range of possible motives, from fairly innocuous to “end of the Yankees as we know them” apocalyptic, but the first thing I thought was that if this really wasn’t that big a deal to Cashman, then he would’ve gone along and negotiated the contract. But obviously that’s just speculation (and maybe some wishful thinking).
And thanks, John, for the kind words. Your check is in the mail. ;-)

but this really is no big deal.
It will have little impact on the Yankees as a team, perhaps zero, in 2011. But Cashman’s contract is up after this year. So it could have an impact on the Yankees, if you think Cashman is important to the team.
I don’t think it is a big deal if the Yankees signed a guy Cashman didn’t want. That happens – he isn’t the owner, it isn’t his money. I get that. But the stuff he said yesterday? That goes pretty far beyond what is necessary at an introductory press conference. For him to disavow the move so bluntly is obviously of meaning. It’s ultimate impact? We don’t know yet.

I’d be perfectly fine if this meant the beginning of the end for Cashman. All good things come to an end, see Joe Torre. Provided the Yankees bring in a baseball guy and not let Hank throw on his Yosimite Sam costume and turn this into the Wild Wild West, I am fine with Cashman walking away. I’d hope and pray the Yankees ownership isn’t foolish enough to stray from system based on research and sabermetrics (Theo/Beane) when hiring a new GM if that day comes. But I am sure it is the hope of most if not all SF’s (see SF’s comment above)that Hank just get to wear the Yosimite Sam costume.

I would like to retract my “dishonest” statement made earlier towards Brian Cashman.
He was very honest, and as suspected, told reporters as much yesterday. As noted above, it’s not the fact that he was plowed over in the decision process, but the fact that he felt obliged to tell everyone as much.
I happen to think he does that to protect himself from the move in either way. He’s not going to be fired if Soriano throws his elbow out in June, because as stated, it’s not his move and he didn’t want it.
I give Kudos to Cashman for being up front about this. I do find the “shoved down your throat” comment telling though. Even though he hid it in a good context, he’s basically saying that he had zero input on the situation, which is telling – to me anyhow.
I wonder if the Yankees are going to take the same approach with Cashman in November as they did with Torre.

i figure the sox will punt papelbon after this season anyway and enter the bidding for soriano after he opts out…
Not a chance. Bard will be the closer next year as long as he’s not injured.
Dc, buddy you can downplay this all you want, but when was the last time you heard a GM talk like that? He essentially threw the decision to sign Soriano under the bus and removed himself from any of the credit or blame that will go with it.
What the hell does Papelbon have to do with this? Why continue to reference the gorilla suit and such? We’re not starting a fire here, but simply speculating on a very public, very adamant differnce in opinion and authority in the Yankees.
When was the last time you saw such a thing…on any team?
I appreciate the “gorilla suit, gorilla suit”!! public alert you’re pointing out, but we’re not talking about difference in opinion in the Sox office 5 years ago, but rather, the Yankees one from this week.
We get it…Theo quit, then put on a rediculous outfit and snuck out of fenway on a Ducati.
and so what if levine negotiated the contract?
Again, when have you ever seen such a thing? It’s rediculous to assume that an owner overrides his GM so blatantly and the GM goes public with such and assume that there isn’t a serious problem. It’s like you telling your boss that “if this doesn’t work, I’m throwing you under the bus at next quarters meetings”.
Am I wrong here?
sure, although i don’t see him giving up the highest profile [and probably paying] gm job in sports.
I don’t see him giving it up either. I see him being asked to leave.

As an aside,
Has anyone seen my new favorite thing ever in the world?
http://www.baconsalt.com/
I haven’t had it yet, but I’m gonna!!

But all that stuff in Boston a few years ago led to Theo actually quitting…then something happened…and he was back. That to me is much bigger a deal than this and I think that is what dc is speaking to?
Bottom line, I think most YF’s could really care less who is running the team in terms of a general manager. It’s not like Cash really put together the core…it was Gene. I don’t mean this as an insult or a flame, it seems to be a Boston thing to hold a GM (Theo) in such high regard and as some kind of genius.

I don’t mean this as an insult or a flame, it seems to be a Boston thing to hold a GM (Theo) in such high regard and as some kind of genius.
I think this sentiment is a New York thing, and like you, not meant as in insult. I think most New Yorkers look at their team, and understand that the GM has over 200M dollars a year to work with, and is given an unlimited resource from which to pull from during the season if need be. Who couldn’t do it. Not as a slight at any GM in New York, but I feel that’s the general consenus from you guys. Like, “I don’t care really if Cashman leaves or not”, which is astounding to me because I would really really be worried if Theo did.
I do think that building a championship caliber team, and staying under the luxury threshold, again and again is a thing of genius in today’s baseball. A perfect mix of overpaid stars, homegrown talent under cost control to some extent, and building a good bullpen are all things that must be gained from that position.
Also, and again, not a slight: Know when to cut loose players who aren’t what they were vs. giving them silly contracts.

There is that element of the payroll, but more than that it’s the guys that have been here forever and are proven winners and the backbone of the team. I have no problem with Cashman, he does a good job but who is to say someone else couldn’t as well? The money is certainly an advantage, but so is have #2, #42, #20 and #46 (hopefully). I really don’t think Cashman when I think about the Yankees. Not to mention, I am no where near as big a baseball fan as most of you guys. Maybe one of the more well versed YF’s can pick this point up and run with it?
Theo is a great GM, and he got you guys 2 rings so I get why you all love him. I’m just not so quick to call him a genius nor bow in reverence seeing as he too has all the advantages of the Yankees…just not ON the Yankees…(and we’re back to our normal talking point!) ;)

“Yes. He stood his ground, and decided that if he was going to be questioned and walked on, he was leaving. It took them one draft and one off season to realize how much of a mistake that was, and fixed his problem for him.”
Right. And this to me seems to be a much bigger deal than Cash getting overruled and saying so. It’s the Bronx man, WAY crazier shit has happened over there!

It’s the Bronx man, WAY crazier shit has happened over there!
To this, we agree. :)

…though, not thought…duh

think you and I both know that is a stupid thing to say…as if running a baseball team is just as simple as money spent. If that were true, the Cubs would win at least once in awhile.
Right, I agree. But, I also feel that this is how A LOT of people feel – especially those who don’t root for a top ten payroll team. Which is why I think people downplay Casham (and Theo to an extent).

I don’t think my fear of who’s next or the idea that anyone can do it is what makes Cashman so replaceable to me. Listen Joe Torre was successful. Bill Cowher was successful and so on down the line. If teams are run the right way from the bottom up there should never be a fear about the unknown. If Cashman wants to leave or the ownership thinks it’s time to move on, then goodbye. I have to put my faith in the Yankees that they will not regress but progress forward with their somewhat new game plan of maintaining a farm system and staying competitive through the use of something more than the human eye. The Raiders are awful because they are run that way. The Lions were awful because they were run that way. The Mets are/were awful because they were run that way. The Yankees were only less awful because they threw money at their mistakes. Those days appear to be over and I can only put my faith in the fact that I believe that can be maintained.

“Right, I agree. But, I also feel that this is how A LOT of people feel – especially those who don’t root for a top ten payroll team. Which is why I think people downplay Casham (and Theo to an extent).”
Oh for sure, and Sarah Palin actually has thousands of people that support her so we both know there are alot of let’s say…fucking stupid…people in this country. :)
Andruw Jones…yawn, I mean YAY!!!! Better in the field than Thames at least. Of course I’M better in the field than Thames.

He’s a serviceable 4th OF’r…not all teams have the luxury of having spending $7.5M on their 4th OF’r… ;)
He’s still good vs lefties and he can play defense. Something they did not have last year with Thames. I’m fine with it.

I guess Heyman buried the lede, since he has Pettitte on the Yankees’ roster. Or is the “maybe” supposed to cover guys who might go into the Hall AND guys who might be on the roster? In which case the Yankees have maybe FIVE HUNDRED Hall of Famers on their roster!
and Sarah Palin actually has thousands of people that support her
If only there were so few. Sigh.

I couldn’t find that tweet, looks like Heyman deleted and replaced/corrected with this:
“if pettitte pitches, is it overstating to say #yankees to have 9 hall candidates? other 8: jeter, arod, mo, jorge, cc, andruw, cano, teix”
This guy is such a total jackass. I mean, just because the medium is quick shouldn’t prevent someone from offering acknowledgment of self-correction. What an insecure a-hole Heyman is.

“Sarah Palin actually has thousands of people that support her.”
Were that truth. Sigh.

brad perhaps there’s some middle ground…i may be underplaying and you guys may be overplaying the distraction, tension, dysfunction, and potential loss of the gm…all i’m saying is that if cashman leaves, he leaves…prior to this the yankees have survived the loss of players, coaching, staff, management and ownership, and i’m sure they can survive the eventual loss of cashman, whether it’s this year or down the road…

krueg, it appears your reverse mojo worked, what with the Sabres coming from behind, and at The Gahdin no less. There’s still hope. Only 7 points out from the 8-slot.

On a one-year deal, Soriano is great.
On a three-year deal, Soriano is great … for the first year.
No one has yet to argue the Yankees are a worse team in 2011 for signing Soriano. In fact, I for one have said just the opposite several times.
Having already given up their first-rounder to sign Crawford, the Sox would have been signing Soriano to a one-year deal at the cost of a second-round pick, as opposed to a three-year deal and a first rounder. Pretty much apples and oranges at that point.

Bard is pitching higher leverage innings by not closing, I believe. I am therefore happy with him not closing.

#1: I was referring to this “Maybe Soriano works out fine.” Fine just seems like a word you’d use to describe something far from good. I already know you guys aren’t the homers.
#2: I have a feeling that if there was a deal Paul it would have been a sign and trade and the Sox wouldn’t have given up even the 2nd round pick. Just a feeling I get because I assume the perceived value of Paps is higher than Soriano.
#3: Why is a 3 year deal with a 32 year old a bad thing? If it’s injuries, we need to look at what injuries he’s had. Elbow and Ulnar nerve…He’s not a walking trip to the DL, these are severe issues, but they aren’t chronic. He’s not Nick Johnson…

but sf just said that “…bard is pitching higher leverage innings by not closing, I believe. I am therefore happy with him not closing….”
is it possible this superman can do both?…pitch the higher leverage innings of setup relief, then close for himself…now that would be something…

To DC’s point, I would have pooh-pooed such a suggestion because the Sox already have Papelbon, Jenks and Bard. Why add a fourth closer? The fact that they could even find someone to take Papelbon would surprise me, and would make me wonder how much salary they’d be eating, on top of the money they’d be paying Soriano and Jenks. The more I think about it, the more I think Heyman might be just plain wrong. Which actually makes much more sense to me.
John, I think most people are in agreement that three-year deals for relievers of any kind are bad news, never mind ones for $12M per year. Not even Soriano has ever put together three consecutive solid and healthy seasons, so the Yankees are basically asking him to put up five in a row (the two he’s had leading into this deal, plus the three in this deal). How many elite relievers have managed even three consecutive years of greatness? Off the top of my head, I name Mariano. Papelbon. Nathan. K-Rod. Mariano is of course insane. Papelbon had four incredible years and imploded in Year 5. Rodriguez had four solid years as a closer and imploded in Year 5. Nathan was awesome for six years, but then lost all of 2010 to TJ surgery. You get the picture. The track record for relievers being elite even for three consecutive years is slim. For five or longer, it’s been essentially two relievers in the current era of reliever usage (that I can think of. I’m sure I’m forgetting someone).
The counterargument, of course, is that the Yankees can afford two years of dead weight if that’s what happens. I think some of the more sabermetrically oriented Yankee bloggers question whether this is true, given the large amounts being paid to Rivera, Teixeira, A-Rod, Jeter, Sabathia and Burnett over that same time period, but I don’t really know one way or the other. I hope those bloggers are right, of course.
Like I said before, I’m pretty apathetic about this move. It makes the Yanks better next year, which kind of sucks for me, but if this is the official Big Move of the Offseason for the Yankees, that’s pretty awesome from my perspective.

Beating Boston in any sport is fun AG! :)
Bard, Paps…either one of them is fine with me. Straight 99 mph fastballs go a long way off Yankee bats!!!