Conceptual Challenge of the Day: Joe vs. Curt

Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling filed for free agency yesterday, after telling a radio audience that "there’s a very realistic chance I won’t ever play" for the team again.

Schilling is probably correct, a club source said yesterday, unless he is willing to accept a low base salary loaded with incentive bonuses.

What is the difference between Joe Torre and Curt Schilling? Discuss.

27 comments… add one
  • first thing that comes to mind is that Schilling PLAYS baseball, while Torre does not.

    Sam-YF October 31, 2007, 8:15 am
  • Schilling lives in suburban Boston, Torre lives in Westchester.

    SF October 31, 2007, 8:30 am
  • Schilling is a blonde, Torre is a brunette.
    That article also says the Sox will most likely pick up Schilling’s 2008 option, which means another year of Dougie. Sigh.

    Atheose October 31, 2007, 9:01 am
  • i assume you meant Wakefield atheose?

    Sam-YF October 31, 2007, 9:02 am
  • Schilling is…rotund. Torre is not.
    Torre is a class act. Schilling is not.
    Hey, this is fun!

    yankeemonkey October 31, 2007, 9:49 am
  • Schilling has 2 rings in the last 4 years, Torre does not. ;-)

    LocklandSF October 31, 2007, 9:52 am
  • Just to be sure that my previous comment isn’t taken as some sort of support for Schilling…
    Thanks for what you did for us Schill, but, good riddance.

    LocklandSF October 31, 2007, 9:53 am
  • I don’t see the rationale for not bringing him back if he’s willing to take the $13 million. They mention the strong core of pitchers, which indeed they have, but only list four, and two are rookies/very young. So who’s the fifth, and what if one or both of the young guys tires in September or struggles a little in adjusting?
    Depth in April is never a bad thing. I’d hate to see the best pitcher on the FA market leave just because we insisted on over-incentivizing his contract.
    Anyway, there’s no evidence that Torre’s skills as a manager have declined (in my opinion; I know it’s debatable), while there is strong evidence Curt’s have.

    Paul SF October 31, 2007, 10:05 am
  • “there’s no evidence that Torre’s skills as a manager have declined (in my opinion; I know it’s debatable), while there is strong evidence Curt’s have.”
    As someone who closely watched the Yanks over Torre’s 12 years, I’ll say that his in-game management skills seemed to decline after Zimmer left. Specifically, his work during the later post-seasons just wasn’t as strong as it had been. In 2003, he puts in Weaver instead of Mo in a high leverage moment, ultimately costing the Yanks the game. In 2004, the Yanks are oddly passive in the running game when V-Tek comes into catch Wakefield. He bats A-Rod 8th in the last game of the Tigers series. In the earler days, he managed as Francona did this past world series–pulling pitchers when he needed to, putting in the right pitchers, making line-up changes that were daring and made sense. I know you said this was debateable, Paul, so I’m not calling you out. Just beginning the debate I guess.

    Nick-YF October 31, 2007, 10:14 am
  • Nick your point is right on. I think this illustrates why turning over managers every once in a while is a good thing. I think its been mentioned on this site before but there have been studies showing that managers lose their effectiveness to a degree as they get older. The authors chalked this up to both a distance from how the game is currently played and a degree of complacency or comfort of being in a job for so long. I dont know how much of this applies to Torre but I for one am excited about a new approach to the game for my team after watching essentially the same approach for 12 years.

    Sam-YF October 31, 2007, 10:27 am
  • My mistake everyone, as Sam-YF pointed out I meant Wakefield. Not Schilling.
    Also, I agree that Torre’s managing skills have weakened over time. The fact that Cashman had to create the “Joba Rules” in the first place show that his bullpen management alone has been, to put it mildly, lacking.

    Atheose October 31, 2007, 10:42 am
  • SFs are clearly shell-shocked by this development. I’m not sure they will ever recover. I feel for them. Can we start a thread re: chaos in Boston now?
    Oh, and on the differences between Schill/Torre:
    One uses an economy of words, making everything he utters worth listening to. The other suffers from verbal diarrhea, making everything he says eminently ignorable.
    One has more class in his pinky than the other has from the top of his head to the blood in his sock.
    The best years for both of them are clearly in the past
    They’re both headed to the HoF
    Neither moves very well any more.

    IronHorse (yf) October 31, 2007, 11:05 am
  • I’ll assume your preamble was humour, IH.
    If not, chaos? Schilling’s situation was known in spring training, there’s really nothing about it that hasn’t been established for months. Same with Lowell. The Sox have a couple of big decisions, but they know Schilling will come back for a specific number. Lowell is the only “how high should we go” issue. The rest of the team issues are minutiae, depending on what you think they should do with Coco.
    One more difference between Schill and Torre: Schill’s a blogger.

    SF October 31, 2007, 11:16 am
  • SF: You are clearly too shell-shocked to discuss this rationally…
    Yes, that was humor, playing on the over-reaching of some SFs here in recent days that the Bronx Zoo was back in town, that the Yankees “booted” Mattingly by simply not offering him a job and him subsequenly departing (on very good terms I might add), etc.
    Interested to see where Schill lands.
    On a rlated note of big stars for whom I have 0 respect, I’m very interested to see where Barry B lands.

    IronHorse (yf) October 31, 2007, 11:20 am
  • Um, my first statement was that “I assume this is humor”.
    I’ll refrain from saying that YFs have seemed awfully testy around here…oh, wait, I couldn’t resist!

    SF October 31, 2007, 11:23 am
  • SF: I was joking too!!!! Including iny my “you are too shell-shocked” crack.
    I think the YF testiness is rivaled only by the SF eagerness to spot it where it doesn’t exist…but I won’t say that. Oops, I just did too! Aagghhhhhhh…….

    IronHorse (yf) October 31, 2007, 11:29 am
  • I think the YF testiness is rivaled only by the SF eagerness to spot it where it doesn’t exist
    You are in such obvious denial…

    SF October 31, 2007, 11:34 am
  • “You are in such obvious denial…”
    I really don’t mind not playing past the first week of October. I really don’t.
    Oh, and I’m not bald either.

    IronHorse (yf) October 31, 2007, 11:45 am
  • Oh, and I’m not bald either.
    Me neither. And I’m not fattish, too. Or stubborn.

    SF October 31, 2007, 12:06 pm
  • Who says I’m not in shape. Round’s a shape.

    attackgerbil October 31, 2007, 1:52 pm
  • they say I used to look like Tim Robbins. Now it’s Meat Loaf, the singer. How did that happen?

    Nick-YF October 31, 2007, 1:57 pm
  • I get the general sense that people think 1/13 or so is reasonable for Schilling… but his stuff has faded considerably and I would feel much more comfortable guaranteeing less and letting him play up his value.
    And I’d say the difference between Schilling and Torre is the extent to which they are directly responsible for the outcomes on the field that are being incentivized. Torre can’t do much if Jeter goes 1-15 in the ALDS, but if Schilling gives up a 3 run bomb in the first inning, it’s all on him.

    Jackie (SF) October 31, 2007, 6:05 pm
  • How about 1 yr $10M for Curt with some reachable incentives and some stretching incentives?
    Say $500K-$1M if he reaches his average inning pitched for the Sox (168.5). Maybe they can give him incentives for reaching some “Bill James” like stats, say $250K if his ERA+ is over 120 or another $250K if his WHIP is under 1.2. That might be interesting way to approach it for the Sox, think of some media guys (buck and mcCarver?) trying to figure out if he reached some incentives late in the year.
    Other’s could be $500K for reaching the play-offs, then $250K for each post season game score of over 65 or over 70. Now those are some incentives! Come on Sox, get creative! I’d think a guy like Curt would love these.

    BillsBurgSF October 31, 2007, 9:41 pm
  • BB –
    Incentives are insulting.
    By the way, can we all just state the obvious now? It wasn’t the incentives (cause he had them previously). It wasn’t the pay cut (cause he’s getting less now from the second biggest market in the country). It was that the Yankees wanted Torre on a one-year deal and Torre wanted at least two years. There was no bridging that divide and so it was destined to end poorly (though it probably ended as poorly as possible). Gotta love the simple explanations proven by facts.

    Pete October 31, 2007, 10:46 pm
  • Oh, and the Elias player rankings came out today. Schilling would net two picks (still hard for me to say let him go if he gets a rich offer). Not surprisingly, Lowell would bring two picks. Gagme returns one pick. Timlin also brings one. I’m pretty sure no one else is one-pick worthy.
    The one problem though with all of this is that the Sox have to offer arbitration then be denied. And given that automatic arbitration means a raise (one one year contracts), would they really offer to Gagme or even Schilling on the risk they could accept?
    Among the Yankees, it’s easy – all the big kids (A-Rod included – there was some question there) net two picks.

    Pete October 31, 2007, 10:59 pm
  • And remember that the B-levels return a sandwich pick, but not from the signing team. It’s just an extra after the first round. Only the A-level players (two picks) bring back the other team’s 1st rounder with the second pick again that sandwich round.

    Pete October 31, 2007, 11:08 pm
  • No, it was the fact that the Yankees felt the need to publically discipline the future HoF after 1) the Yanks had the best record in baseball June through September after complete disarray, 2) Joe led the team to the playoffs for the 13th straight year, and 3) Joe won 4 WS and 11? AL East titles, getting more credit for that the The Boss.

    Anonymous November 1, 2007, 12:03 am

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