Count Teh Ringz, Theo Style

Peter Abraham quotes Theo Epstein: "We are not the Yankees. We feel our best way to compete with them year in and year out is to keep one eye on now and one eye on the future and to build something that can sustain success. We’ve gone toe-to-toe with those guys taking that approach. I think we’re one or two games under .500 against them since ’03 and have won one more World Series than they have. So we’re not going to change our approach and try to all of a sudden build an uber-team."

Tom Verducci has an opinion, and so does John Donovan. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss?

36 comments… add one
  • They’re not the Yankees, remember, but they’ve checked in at No. 2 in payroll behind the Yanks for the past three seasons. Their total outlay has dipped from a bit more than $127 million in their championship season to just more than $120 million last season, though it figures to rise again in ’07.
    There’s a rather big difference between 120M and 208M. What will the difference be this year, even with DM in the fold? How can people get off isolating the DM move and then suddenly creating a near equivalency between the two rivals?
    It’s as if I have a wealthy friend who goes out to fancy dinners three nights a week. I am a bit on the jealous side, considering myself a foodie, perhaps slightly less well-compensated, since I get to go out less frequently. Then one week I decide to head over to Per Se for a blowout meal. I call up my friend and tell him what a great meal it was, how I can’t believe he’s never been there. My friend claims “see, what are you complaining about, you go out just as much as I do”.
    Makes no sense, right? My friend goes out to three fancy meals a week, whereas I only get one. Somehow, the one great meal I had just turned into the three that he has. That’s what Donovan and all the other scribes are doing when he uses this supposed (still unnanounced) move as evidence that the Sox and Yanks are just about the same. It’s preposterous.

    SF November 14, 2006, 7:28 pm
  • 2006 – Redsox current roster that are not from their farm system –
    Mike Lowell – Yankees farm system
    Wily Mo Pena – Yankees farm system
    Coco Crisp – Cleveland Indian Farm System
    Josh Beckett – Florida marlins Farm System
    Curt Schilling – Traded from Dbacks
    Tim Wakefield – Ex pittsburgh pirates –
    Manny Ramirez – Signed as Free agent in 2000
    Jason Varitek -Came from Seattle mariners organization with Derek Lowe
    Alex Gonzalez – Signed as free agent from Florida Marlins
    Alex Cora – Dodgers farm system
    Mike Timlin – Former Blue Jays farm system
    Matt Clement- From Sandiego padres farmsystem and signed with redsox
    Keith Foulke – Signed as free agent by Redsox
    Julian Tavarez – Signed as Free Agent from St Louis Cardinals
    Mark Lorretta – Traded from Padres to the Redsox
    2006 -Current Redsox from their farm system
    Craig Hansen
    Jon Lester
    Jonathan Papelbon
    Kevin Youkilis
    Yet Redsox called the Yankees the Evil Empire and Redsox fans complaining Yankees spent more money. The Yankees have more homegrown than Redsox.

    Anoynomous November 14, 2006, 7:33 pm
  • It seems Donovan is describing it as a matter of perspective for most of the teams in the majors.
    I have to admit, Theo’s quote boiled my blood a bit, regarding winning one more series than NY since 2003, mostly because he’s right and I can’t argue. I just want to sputter, “but.. but.. look at the pedigree! Pfft. (#*$(*@&.” Then, it comes back to the fact he is bloody effing right. Damn it all.

    attackgerbil November 14, 2006, 7:35 pm
  • A: do you hold Theo responsible for Dan Duquette’s work? Do you credit Cashman for Stick Michael’s?
    This is a relatively boring discussion. The Sox have obtained quality players by trading a commodity: the high-end minor leaguer. Schill, Beckett, Crisp, Pena, all came in return for farmhands. Varitek and Lowe came over at the very beginning of their careers, and though homegrowners they are not, the Sox have had them from when they were just developing. The Yankees have made an effort to rebuild their minor league system just as the Sox have, and for good reason. Both teams look at the farm as a way to jump over waiting for every high-level prospect to develop.

    SF November 14, 2006, 7:37 pm
  • Theo isn’t jabbing, just stating the facts. Get over it!
    Kind of like a certain Yankees shortstop was just “stating the facts” was when he said something like “we’re still playing for something”, or something to that effect, late this season. ;-)

    SF November 14, 2006, 7:40 pm
  • “Theo isn’t jabbing, just stating the facts. Get over it!”
    I know! I admit he’s bloody well right. I’m too shallow to get over it.
    “Somehow, the one great meal I had just turned into the three that he has.”
    If we bitch because the waiter stuck his thumb in your friend’s soup, ala Pavano/Dotel, or if the maitre d sat you by the kitchen even though you tipped him well, ala Beckett, everyone else is scratching their heads, wondering why we are arguing about my New York Strip ala Oscar tasting better than your barded Chateaubriand when they are getting take-out from Arby’s.

    attackgerbil November 14, 2006, 7:45 pm
  • Theo was jabbing. Who are we kidding.
    (And so was Derek!)

    SF November 14, 2006, 7:50 pm
  • Wait- people eat at Arby’s?! Seriously!?

    SF November 14, 2006, 7:51 pm
  • Well, I figure someone must eat there. Four half-pound piles of cow for five bucks with all that horsey sauce slathered on top? Woohoo! Cheap meat!

    attackgerbil November 14, 2006, 7:57 pm
  • also, adding one pitcher does not an uber team make. Adding every sinlge big hitting free agent on the market year after year, in fact, does.

    brad November 14, 2006, 8:12 pm
  • It’s over and hopes for winning world series and division for next year. By signing Dmat The Redsox completely change The balance of power in Al east. Redsox rotation now has too much power and depth. The Yankees can’t compete . Along with BlueJays and Orioles, and Drays. Drays who won the posting rights for Iwamura and Orioles trading for Jaret wright. Mets will sign Barry Zito. This is the Year that Yankees last chance to win World Series without Redsox and Angels making the Playoffs. The Yankees choked and failed. Do you think the Yankees will make the playoffs next year or is it over?

    Aguila November 14, 2006, 8:23 pm
  • So does Orestes Destrade now become the most trusted man in baseball reporting? 51.1 million dollars.

    TJ November 14, 2006, 8:24 pm
  • A lot of whining on Abraham’s blog. I’d try to rebut some of it, but it’s hard to find a response to: “WAAAAAAAAAAAAH!”

    Paul SF November 14, 2006, 8:29 pm
  • Pfft. Nothing to whine about. I’ll admit to being irked, but what’s done is done. Yanks guessed, and guessed wrong, and I’m fine with that because $51.1 mil can buy you an awful lot besides a cup of tea with Mr. Boras.
    Congrats, Sox fans! Hopefully DM will turn out to be an utter disaster :)

    yankeemonkey November 14, 2006, 8:36 pm
  • Nah, I’m nicer than that. I hope his adjustment period is around however long his contract is, Yanks steal him, and he starts going Johan.
    Yes, I’m absolutely evil. ;)

    Lar November 14, 2006, 8:39 pm
  • …it took theo longer than i thought to drag out his tired old disclaimer about not being the yankees…that’s for damn sure, “yankee like”, or “wannabes”, maybe…but that excuse ain’t gonna work anymore…if the sox make the kind of financial splash this off-season that it’s starting to look like, they will finally be faced with the challenge that they have to win it all, or suffer the same kind of scrutiny that the yanks have the past few years, and that ’04 win he keeps rubbing in the yankees nose will seem like a distant, faded memory…

    dc November 14, 2006, 9:22 pm
  • Highest payroll? yankees cut payroll by trading Gary Sheffield and Jaret wright. They also renew the contract of Mike Mussina which was $20 million to $11 million per year. So Redsox won the bid fo Dmat and negotiate him to contract. The redsox payroll will balloned to that Yankees payroll . By The End they will be even. The redsox aren’t done dealing and willl go after high price free agents such as J.D Drew and signed many free agents as possible.

    Anoynomous November 14, 2006, 9:28 pm
  • SF: Your foodie analogy misses the point. The Yanks may have a table at le cirque, and the sox may only head to per se for special occassions, but to the rest of the universe, the rest of the universe that considers a night at the sizzler a big outting, the difference is neglible. both teams are spending extraordinary sums on salary. in 2007 they will be closer that any time in the recent past, especially when the titanic dm post fee is factored in. anyway. there’s no special badge of honor for operating your team cheaply, so this is all meaningless until it has repercussions on other signings, and the only way we know about that is through the propaganda of the teams, as the finances aren’t public. so the whole finance thing is a red herring.
    the sox got themeselves a great property. they paid massively for it. end of story.

    YF November 14, 2006, 9:33 pm
  • I thank the Redsox Frontoffice for bidding a outrageous amount Daisuke Matsuzaka sweepstakes. I’m Yankees fan, I’m feeling shocked and stunned right now. It feels like The Redsox front Office took my heart out on my body. I don’t Know if I have The desire to watch the Yankees games and joy to be yankees fan.
    Today’s It’s Dmat Day. The RedSox may have won the battle but The war is not yet over. Yankees will arise again and strikes back.

    Anoynomous November 14, 2006, 10:12 pm
  • Interesting comments from the Anonymi.
    Abraham at LoHud is doing nothing to counteract the falsehood in his comments that the Red Sox will somehow be restricted in what they can do the rest of the off-season after this move. I’ll say this one last time: THE POSTING BID DOESN’T COUNT TOWARD PAYROLL!
    Ok, that’s all…

    Paul SF November 14, 2006, 10:28 pm
  • Two numbers.
    78M
    17M
    Any guesses as to what they represent, roughly?

    Quo November 14, 2006, 10:28 pm
  • YF: I agree. In the end, and I know I’ve been an ass! =), it’s about wins and losses. Money is no object for this rivalry, right?
    I was under some assumption that the Sox wants to like, operate under some budget. Of course, with this and Drew, while still isn’t that close to the Yanks, maybe they don’t have a budget after all!
    The posting bid doesn’t count toward payroll, but that’s an accounting trick, isn’t it? The money still has to come from somewhere..
    Okay, enough “real world”, let’s go back to “baseball world” where money is just a number!

    Lar November 14, 2006, 10:34 pm
  • Hehe, Lars, the money could come from NESN profits (several hundred million a year) or from John Henry’s spare change for all we know.
    But the Sox are going to have about #130M to spend on payroll next year, and the 51.11M has abslutely no effect on that.
    Quo, wasn’t $78M the amount the Sox paid Pedro over the length of his at-the-tme “obscene” contract?
    Don’t know about the $17M.

    Paul SF November 14, 2006, 10:58 pm
  • Abraham is on a two week vacation. True story.

    tom yf November 14, 2006, 10:58 pm
  • YF:
    The analogy is regarding the two teams, not the entire league. Hence the anlaogy not including like 28 other friends eating out. There is a split in the league, no doubt, we agree, but there is still a split between the Sox and Yanks, payroll-wise. This is a fact. Why do you continue to write like this doesn’t exist?

    SF November 14, 2006, 11:22 pm
  • Paul, good guess on the $78M. What it is is the difference between the Yankees payroll and their next biggest competitor (us, $78M), and us and our next biggest competitor (Angels, $17M). Yes. We’re certainly playing on the same field as the Yankees with BOTH teams being completely out of reach of others.
    Lar, sure the money comes from somewhere. The money tree that my parents foolishly tried to convince me doesn’t exist. In either case, can’t argue that $51M+ is exorbitant. No way. It’s an almost unimaginable dollar amount. However, it doesn’t put the Sox in a “different league” in spending than the rest of the league. Most baseball owners are at least moderately successful businessmen who get into it because they love the game. An MLB team is by no means a poor investment, but the money a lot of these guys make outside of the team can oftentimes dwarf any of our monetary perceptions about what they make as owners of MLB team(especially when they are part of an ownership “group”, as is often the case). Payroll is dictated often by a series of choices made by ownership/FO, not due to monetary constraints. Even these are not ironclad. Rumor is, the Indians of all teams put in a bid on Matsuzaka as well.
    For example, ask any Twins fan about Carl Pohlad, and there’ll be mixed reactions. The man has the money to compete with Steinbrenner/Henry/Moreno/Tribune Co. etc. in the FA market (and probably could put together the capital for a $51M + bid on Matsuzaka). He chooses not to for a number of reasons, some smart, and some not. His team ranked 19th in payroll last season. (still *only* $56M behind the Red Sox) The Twins are a successful mid-market team. Can’t take away from that. But the simple fact of the matter is, the Twins payroll is $64M at least somewhat by choice, not because the owner doesn’t have the cash. The Twins success is an incredible credit to GM Terry Ryan.
    Think Jeffrey Loria is a bad businessman? Cheap because he won’t allow the Marlins payroll to rise to a reasonable level? He wants to move the team/a publicly funded stadium, and thought reducing the payroll significantly would help him reach that goal. Still worked, despite the team’s success last year, as there were still very few fans out to the ballpark.
    Are some teams “somewhat” financially limited? Sure. But a lot of it has to do with choices.
    Also, Yankees and Red Sox are on the same playing field? Maybe. But then why is the Red Sox payroll closer to the Royals ($73M difference) than the Yankees?
    *This is all based on 2006 figures. I realize the Red Sox payroll will swell a little bit based on recent goings-on, but not to make any significant payroll comparison a reality.*

    Quo November 14, 2006, 11:26 pm
  • He’s on a two-week vacation, but he still has time to whine about the Red Sox’ spending habits. Some vacation :-P Maybe he should worry about why the Yankees got outbid by their two biggest rivals on the best pitcher on the market this offseason.

    Paul SF November 14, 2006, 11:58 pm
  • My bet is the RedSox don’t sign D-Mat and never have to pay the posting fee. This has been an elaborate ruse to block the Yankees from signing him. The RedSox will offer him a bad contract which Boras will not accept at postponing his signing with the Yankees for one year.

    Eric November 15, 2006, 12:08 am
  • Eric, is that your bet, or your “hope”? Two very different words. The Red Sox not making a serious offer to Matsuzaka would be disastrous on many levels.

    Quo November 15, 2006, 12:20 am
  • This has been addressed ad nauseum, Eric, here and in the national media, by Sox fans and Yankee fans. That scenario is a ncie pipe dream for Yanks fans, but it is just that. The Sox will sign Matsuzaka. Sorry…

    Paul SF November 15, 2006, 12:21 am
  • Paul: Pete’s not a Yankee fan. I think he has been surprised and enthused by the feedback he gets on his blog, and is trying to feed it, and if it comes off as whining, it’s most likely because he is trying to bend a story around a relatively thin topic to be truthful. There’s a lot of pontificating on every side about what is essentially a free-agent pitcher signing; if he stays healthy, he’ll start his one game in five, and he will probably be fairly good at it, but I don’t see the second coming of Pedro, frankly. Pete’s a great source of information, in a large part because of the fact he isn’t a fan of the Yanks.
    Regarding New York getting outbid, it really only matters that one team outbid them. They could have not bid at all with the same results. Carping on them for coming in third for the right to negotiate is pounding a bent nail into a knot. Yay. Boston spent the most. I have already congratulated Boston for making a bold marketing move, one that I’m certain will pay well. That is entirely separate from what Matsuzaka may or may not do in the rotation. You call him the best pitcher on the market. I agree with you that he is the most interesting commodity on the market, and I think he will likely be a star, but Matsuzaka and I are tied for innings pitched in the Major Leagues. He’s not the best pitcher, not with never having thrown a pitch.

    attackgerbil November 15, 2006, 12:34 am
  • He’s the best pitcher, in terms of stuff, age and stats on a level higher than the mnor leagues. Not int erms of MLB experience, granted, but Zito and Schmidt are not exactly appetixing options for the money they’ll cost.
    Didn’t realize Abraham is not a Yankee fan. Nevertheless, he has come off very much as a whiner in this process — perhaps because being in northern New Jersey, it’s all he’s hearing at the moment.

    Paul SF November 15, 2006, 1:00 am
  • Okay, I agree with you Paul, because I really think that Matsuzaka will be an ace, and I’m a bit disgruntled that NY didn’t pony up. I’m really curious what kind of pitcher he will be in August. I imagine he’s going to be close to un-hittable for the first couple months. The Yanks have scouted this guy for years. Why didn’t they pay through the nose, the way Boston did? The way I hoped they would? Just curious.

    attackgerbil November 15, 2006, 1:10 am
  • ag: I don’t think anyone could’ve expected 51 mil. If you would’ve told me that 38 mil wasn’t good enough, I probably would’ve gone 45. And 38 is already way higher than what I assumed most people would’ve thought.
    But I guess if you wanted to be safe, beating the next guy by 13 mil is a safe way to do things!

    Lar November 15, 2006, 1:21 am
  • Lar, I fully expect that the Boston FO knows they will recoup that investment through the newly-opened door into the Japanese marketing machine. Brilliant, really, when you consider it.

    attackgerbil November 15, 2006, 1:40 am
  • Gy-ro-mite! I can’t wait to go down to Twins and get my brand spankin’ new #18 Red Sox jersey. Barry Zito? Who needs him? Jason Schmidt? You can have him. I want this guy right here. He’s got Jeff Ruland/Rick Mahorn stuff. McFilthy and McNasty.

    josh q public November 15, 2006, 11:04 am

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