Democracy Now!

Concerned citizens of Red Sox Nation are sending around a petition urging the Sox cancel their plans to sign J.D. Drew. This line stuck out:

"With all due respect we feel that Mr. Drew is not worth the rumored
amount in the potential deal and we stand together in hopes that
someone hears our voices and refrains from making another huge mistake." (Itals mine)

Another huge mistake?! Hmm. These are the guys who brought you the 2004 World Series after something like 95 years (right, Arizona Republic?). Didn’t Theo sign Big Papi? What about Schilling? Yeah, management’s made a number of huge mistakes!

And Yanks fans get killed for their sense of entitlement. How spoiled and crazy have certain Sox fans become?

98 comments… add one

  • Our old friends at http://www.keepmanny.com (still going strong) I understand. This not so much.

    YF November 30, 2006, 9:01 am
  • Red Sox fans make me laugh. Do you think we wanted Jaret Wright, Kenny Lofton, Rondell White, Raul Mondesi, Chris Hammond and so on and so on. You are FANS, not the GM, relax and root for the team they put on the field. I am not saying J.D. Drew is a stud, but something tells me that Theo may know a little more then Sully from Middleboro.

    Trikaidekaphobia November 30, 2006, 9:12 am
  • At the time Mondesi was a 30-30 guy. No idea whatever happened to him.
    It seems like we have a habit of getting these players a few years late..

    Lar November 30, 2006, 9:20 am
  • To review…
    There are no starving children that will get a quarter if you forward an email, Bill gates is not giving money away, there are no HIV infected needles hidden in payphones, nobody is trying to steal your kidneys, there is no such thing as an email tax that congress is about to pass, no matter what you read 9/11 did happen, and online petitions do NOTHING!!!!
    Carry on.

    LocklandSF November 30, 2006, 9:24 am
  • That is to say, Bill gates is not giving money away to YOU.

    LocklandSF November 30, 2006, 9:26 am
  • Yeah, this petition is representative of us SFs. Sure. And people have the gall to accuse me of broadstroke generalizations.
    (and where are dc and WE to crap on this post? The silence is deafening!)
    As for me, I stopped signing petitions after the “Make Jack Clark Disappear or We Pelt the SOB with Mustard Covered Pretzels” document that I concocted went nowhere back in the 80s.

    SF November 30, 2006, 10:10 am
  • I agree, this is a little crazy. Of those available, who’s better? Drew, although going to command a load of smack, is better than any other option at hand right now.
    It’s not their money, so I don’t really see what the outrage is over – would they rather have Trot playing 40 games a year again?
    I’m with you on this one Nick.

    Brad November 30, 2006, 10:18 am
  • If you want to really see a funny petition, head here and read this guy’s insane remarks. Now this is just down right stupid!!
    http://www.letplummerplay.com
    hahahahah.

    Brad November 30, 2006, 10:20 am
  • Brad, I think you might need therapy. Next, we’re going to post some thread about Japanese baseball, and you’re going to say, “You know who should play Japanese baseball (because he certainly can’t play American football)? Jake Plummer!”
    Agreed on all points otherwise. If the most we have to worry about as Sox fans is our management overpaying for one of the best right fielders in baseball, even if he does have injury issues, I think we’ve come a long ways from the days — and they weren’t that long ago — when Jose Canseco and Kevin Mitchell were going to win us a World Series.

    Paul SF November 30, 2006, 10:33 am
  • There are several more pages of petitions involving the Red Sox than the Yankees, which, to the optimist in me, represents a far greater sense of personal power and social responsibility amongst the fan base. We’re optimists; we think our own devotion to the team can have some sway, while it is clear that Yankees fans have been bludgeoned into passive, socially inactive automatons. ;-)
    Call us naive, I suppose!

    SF November 30, 2006, 10:46 am
  • yeah, Plummer therapy probably wouldn’t hurt anything:)

    Brad November 30, 2006, 11:13 am
  • “Certainly, in the topsy-turvy world of heavy rock, having a good solid piece of wood in your hand is often useful.”
    Sorry, off topic, but we just had a 20 minute office Spinal Tap quote off I just wanted to extend it to here.

    LocklandSF November 30, 2006, 11:52 am
  • Well, SF, Boston is the birthplace of the revolutionary, democratic spirit. Why shouldn’t Red Sox fans be born with the passions of their ancestors to effect change against the powers that be?
    The Yankees, meanwhile, are run by King George and known as the Empire.

    Paul SF November 30, 2006, 12:05 pm
  • “One of the best RF’s in baseball”?! Paul, I live in SoCal, I like the Dodgers in addition to being a lifelong Yankee diehard, and I watch 3/4 of all the Dodger’s games. JD Drew is not one of the best RF’s in baseball. I’ve watched the guy play more than 100 games the past couple of seasons, he’s good (when playing) but he should not be described by the adjective “best” at anytime. Think Vlad, Ichiro, and Abreu when you start talking about the some of the best RF’s in the Bigs.

    bloodyank78 November 30, 2006, 12:21 pm
  • Well, if BY78 says he’s average, but Bobby Abreu is the high water mark, that’s all I need to know.
    Don’t sign this bum, Theo. Yankee fans who watch Dodger games say he’s no good!

    Brad November 30, 2006, 12:45 pm
  • The Red Sox on Thursday announced that they have agreed to a two-year contract with left-hander Hideki Okajima with an option for 2009.
    Considered one of the top setup men in Nippon Professional Baseball, the 30-year-old Okajima went 2-2 with a career-best 2.14 ERA and four saves in 55 appearances this season with the Hokkaido Nippon Ham Fighters. He had spent the previous 11 seasons with the Yomiuri Giants before being traded in March.
    On different news.

    Brad November 30, 2006, 12:49 pm
  • BY78, his OPS IIRC ranks him first among right fielders in the NL and sixth in baseball. By all accounts, his defense is solid.

    Paul SF November 30, 2006, 12:55 pm
  • I think us Sox fans should be more outraged that the Sox have interest in Barry Bonds. I will be soo pissed if Boston even makes Bonds an offer.

    TJ November 30, 2006, 1:00 pm
  • Just wait until August 15th, the Sox back 4-5 games in the East and Drew is MIA for 4 days:
    Francona: JD is dealing with a few things, he should be back in the lineup for this weekend’s series against the Jays.
    After Drew is a “late scratch” from that friday’s lineup card–
    Francona: Not sure exactly. We didn’t want to push it. He could have played. No, I’m not sure what we were going to be ‘pushing.’

    walein November 30, 2006, 1:22 pm
  • sf, i’m here…just got back from a mission, and have a few minutes before i go on another…what am i supposed to crap on exactly?, the petition?, nick’s post?, nick?…he wouldn’t appreciate that…if your beef is that nick generalized, re-read the post…he said, and i quote: “…How spoiled and crazy have certain Sox fans become?…”…use of the word “certain” means that he doesn’t mean “all”…on the other hand, if i said that: “…all red sox fans can’t read, or they wouldn’t keep misunderstanding like this, and misquoting yf’s…”, then you’d have a legit beef…except that it’s true, and your beef would be thrown out of court for lack of merit…

    dc November 30, 2006, 1:30 pm
  • You guys can rave about his OPS, OBP, defense, etc. I’m just telling you what I saw from the guy on a day in day out basis.
    Brad- that Ivy League sarcasm is tops, keep it comin’ big timer.

    bloodyank78 November 30, 2006, 2:10 pm
  • Wait, let me get this straight… So:
    In Yankee bizarroworld, it is “spoiled” to REJECT the owners’ plans to buy fans a new All Star outfielder?
    But it would NOT be “spoiled” to demand that ownership pony up a small fortune to GET us a brand new spankin toy?
    Wow, I guess years of being bought unlimited replacement All-Stars — after you broke your old ones — has really warped YFs definition of spoiled.
    (“MOMMMY, my Hideki and Sheff dolls are busted! Get me an Abreu one NOW or I’ll throw a tantrum!”)

    Hudson November 30, 2006, 2:14 pm
  • I think most people would agree that Drew is pretty good. The question really is if he plays. He got the “injury-prone” label on him mostly from earlier in the career, and seems more stable the last few years, so it might not be so bad.
    That said, some people just have a way of attracting injuries, and while I don’t hope he gets injured, it wouldn’t surprise me too much either..

    Lar November 30, 2006, 2:19 pm
  • Early in his career? Lar he missed 90 games in 2005.

    bloodyank78 November 30, 2006, 2:24 pm
  • You guys can rave about his OPS, OBP, defense, etc. I’m just telling you what I saw from the guy on a day in day out basis.
    Funny in a way because I remember another RF being mindlessly ridiculed by his team, the fans, the owners, and bloggers everywhere. He was a guy with great talent, good defense, and a bad reputation. His team could not wait to move him to another team and get out from under his contract because he wasn’t doing what they needed him to do. But, once in his new home, he’s now the standard for RFers in the majors?
    His name – Bobby Abreu.
    So essentially, it was unfounded critisism from fans and owners when the player was headed to the Yankees, but when it’s another guy with a bad rap from fans going to the Sox, the rumors hold enough water to warrant Boston not doing it?
    The guy is a great talent, good eye, and great defense – why should Boston buy into the hype – especially from a Yankee fan?
    I’ll wait until I see him play or “lack of play” before I judge the guy, but for now all I can do is go on numbers.
    Also, I wanted the Sox to get Abreu last year, so my critisism, or lack thereof, of him was exactly the same at the time.

    Brad November 30, 2006, 2:27 pm
  • BY78 – the guy had a broken hand from a HBP – does that mean he’s an injury wating to happen?
    How will the Yankees survive with Matsui, who after all, missed the whole year due to his lack of toughness.
    It’s not like the guy was sitting on the bench because he fell on his tail while covering first base, BY.

    Brad November 30, 2006, 2:29 pm
  • How did the year before the broken hand look, BY? Here, I’ll show you:
    Games – 145
    AB – 494
    Runs – 118
    HR – 31
    RBI – 93
    Avg- .305
    OBP – .412
    SLG – .569
    F% – .990
    E – 3
    I think that we’ll take our chances that he won’t break his hand again, and at least play up to that year. With the dollars going to other OFers, it’s possible that this deal is the best they can do without re-upping for Trot, and wouldn’t Yankee fans love that!

    Brad November 30, 2006, 2:36 pm
  • This just in Red Sox Fans and Yankees fans will never see eye to eye. Now that we got that out of the way.
    I don’t know what Yankees fans you spoke to when Sheff and Hit-deki went down, but I would say the majority of people I know were completely happy with Melky in left long term. Pitching was and is the area most fans wanted to improve. Were we happy when we got Abreu? Absolutely. Especially after Theo dropped the ball and let him get away (Much the way Contreras and Damon got away or the way he traded away the 2006 NL Rookie of the Year, a pitcher who threw a no hitter AND Andy Marte, the 2007 AL Rookie of the Year). But I can’t recall seeing an ABREU OR BUST banner in Yankee Stadium at any point in time.
    Your franchise is in turmoil. Yes the pitching staff, if healthy could be very good. But an infield of Youkilis, Pedroia and Lowell, with SS open, as well as an OF of Wily Mo, Coco and Drew, doesn’t exactly bring fear to anyones eyes (No I am NOT forgetting BIG SLOPPY, but he doesn’t play defense remember…MVP MVP, LOL). In addition to Craig Hansen closing games. But I know what you’ll say… there is the farm system….Hmmmm not this year, Baseball HQ recently rated the AL East and gave the Yankees a higher grade then every team in the division BUT the Devil Rays.
    At one point the Red Sox could hang their hat on the fact that they do not overpay for FA’s (Drew and Matsuzaka have destroyed that) and that they didn’t trade away their future for the present (Anibal Sanchez, Andy Marte, Hanley Ramirez, Cla Meredith and so on.) Face facts, your team has become what you once cheered against….

    Trikaidekaphobia November 30, 2006, 2:47 pm
  • and Brad the year before that. It seems JD has a history of missing a good amount of games every other season.
    That said if healthy is is very good at what he does and if he gets a big deal it makes Abreu seem an even greater steal. It was his price that scared sox FO away right?

    Seth November 30, 2006, 2:49 pm
  • This just in Red Sox Fans and Yankees fans will never see eye to eye. Now that we got that out of the way.
    Then why bother shooting off at the mouth on a hundred different issues that could all be countered with valid arguments?
    Should we go into the Yankee’s moves in the past four years? Really? Wanna do that?
    I hardly think the franchise is in turmoil. However, I will agree with you that Theo dropped the ball on Abreu. I said so then, and I say so now. Other than that, your post is speculative, biased garbage. If you’d like to get into a stone throwing contest over signings, farm systems, or mistakes made, I’ll be happy to oblige.

    Brad November 30, 2006, 3:00 pm
  • It was his price that scared sox FO away right?
    Yeah, not sure Seth. I know I wanted it, but I think they bought into the negative hype a little too much with him, but that problem remains to be seen for NY later this year because he’s been good so far.

    Brad November 30, 2006, 3:02 pm
  • I don’t want a war, I only wan Sox fans to embrace their new identity. They are the Yankees of the late 80’s/early 90’s. It’s a slippery slope.

    Trikaidekaphobia November 30, 2006, 3:08 pm
  • Slippery slope is a logical fallacy, though maybe logic went out the window long ago..
    Some players just get injuries, whether it’s “their fault” or not. It’s a generalization (and a cliche), yes, but it came from somewhere..

    Lar November 30, 2006, 3:11 pm
  • They are the Yankees of the late 80’s/early 90’s. It’s a slippery slope.
    that’s kind of overboard don’t you think. One injury riddled year, and all of the sudden they’re the laughing stock?
    You really think they won’t compete this year? You’re being a lunatic.

    Brad November 30, 2006, 3:15 pm
  • They will always compete. What I am referring to is the formula they are using. Trading youth for now players and overpaying for FA’s, that might not pan out. I personally don’t care, but this is something RSN once despised.

    Trikaidekaphobia November 30, 2006, 3:22 pm
  • Trik, let’s remember no name-calling of the players, first of all.
    Second of all, the fact that you just criticized the Red Sox for letting Johnny Damon, Bobby Abreu and Jose Contreras (how is that one bad, again?) go, while conversely comparing the team to the free-spending Yankee teams of the 1980s shows you have no idea what you’re talking about. If the Sox are so free-spending, why are they letting players go? If they’re so dumb in letting players go, why are they spending money on Matsuzaka and Drew?
    It is the height of superficial — and, frankly, unintelligent — argument to criticize a team in NOVEMBER for holes in its lineup. Last I checked, there were still three months until pitchers and catchers report.
    Thanks though for reminding us Sox fans why we don’t cheer for the Yankees. We’d hate to be associated with pitiful arguments like that one.

    Paul SF November 30, 2006, 3:23 pm
  • I think that Drew can be good if he plays. HOwever, he’s had a problem of not playing games regardless of serious injury. He’s suppossedly a sensitive player (a la Edgar Renteria) and things could get scary in Boston with a contract that high and issues such as he’s had.
    Unlike Manny Ramirez Drew has actually had players ON HIS TEAM question his integritomnity and heartitude; and look how the media has jumped on Manny for missing games (for the first time mind you).
    The reason the Drew pick up is larger than just the years and the contract is that it seems to be (according to what I’ve read) the basic building block the Sox feel they need to part with Manny Ramirez.
    We all know that Manny’s bat cannot be replaced and a trade won’t bring back anything more than top middle-relief talent and strong prospects, but this move is happening with the hopes of softening the blow to the teams offense.

    walein November 30, 2006, 3:31 pm
  • Just give him a player option to get out of the last 3 years of the deal. JD’s ability to wear out a welcome and Boras’ greed can be banked on possibly more than anything else these days.

    nate November 30, 2006, 3:39 pm
  • It’s the way you are spending the money and odd trades that make you similar to those Yankee teams….You traded E-Rent and got a soon to be stud Marte, great deal…but you turned Marte into Coco. Now had you spent the extra money you could have had Marte AND Damon, instead you have Coco. Now with a hole at SS, you trade Hanley and Sanchez for Lowell and Beckett. In addition, you trade away a RP who could have helped greatly, Meredith, for the a below average catcher. Then late summer Theo has a chance to make it better and get Abreu and fails at that. You can’t tell me they couldn’t have used Lidle, God rest his soul, and Abreu? Especially knowing Trot was a FA and Wily Mo plays a better LF and that all it cost was a player more valuable then CJ Henry. Imagine this team:
    C-Tek
    1B-Youk
    2B-Pedroia
    3B-Marte
    SS-Ramirez
    LF-Manny
    CF-JD
    RF-Abreu
    DH-Ortiz
    SP’s= Schilling,Matsuzaka, Papelbon, Anibal Sanchez, Lester/Wakefield
    Now that’a an argument you can’t dispute. Perfect mix of youth and veterans.
    Sorry for name calling.

    Trikaidekaphobia November 30, 2006, 3:41 pm
  • i guess the majority of people who felt comfortable with melky didn’t include torre and yankee front office come playoff time. if you want to handpick farm system reports, minorleaguenews.com has the yankees at #21 with only 2 players in the top 50 prospects.

    sf rod November 30, 2006, 3:43 pm
  • By JD I meant Johnny Damon.

    Trikaidekaphobia November 30, 2006, 3:43 pm
  • Philip Hughes, Jose Tabata and Humberto Sanchez….That’s 3 in anyones top 50.

    Trikaidekaphobia November 30, 2006, 3:45 pm
  • I’ve heard this a lot, and I just don’t understand. There’s the anonymous, and in Tony LaRussa’s case not so anonymous, teammates and whatnot questioning Drew’s desire to play hurt. Ok, fine. But people do that with Manny, and the common denominator iss that both have/had patellar tendinitis, apparently a condition that allows you to play a lot of the time, but not all the time.
    Likewise, various fans/observers from southern LA say, “Drew isn’t a guy who will do well in Boston.”
    Where is the concrete proof? Does he slack off in the field? If so, how can he be considered a good defender? Does he refuse to play through minor aches and pains? If so, when, and how does that jive with the fact that the bulk of his missed games since 2003 coincide with broken bones and knee surgery? Is there any proof that he wilts under pressure? If so, how does that correlate with his consistent numbers on different teams in different situations?
    Maybe he’s all these things, and worse. But if he is, why have we not heard any specific examples other than these nebulous, anonymous accusations?

    Paul SF November 30, 2006, 3:46 pm
  • Trik….
    The verdict isn’t in on Damon yet, if he falls apart next year, which I’m certain he will at some point, it was a brilliant move.
    See: Pedro.
    Also, you can apologize all you want for the name calling, I’m certain you didn’t know that was frowned on here, but it is obviously your true colors or you wouldn’t have said it to begin with. That lumps you in to the same group that uses names like HGHiambi.
    Not the sort of fan, for either side, that anyone takes seriously.

    LocklandSF November 30, 2006, 3:50 pm
  • That’s a better argument, Trik, but it fails to account for Marte’s failure to produce this season, the fact that Sanchez was pitching in the National League (and that Beckett pitched games of similar dominance), the likelihood of Crisp producing well long after Damon, and the resurgence of Lowell.
    I’m not gonna argue about Meredith — except to say that he would not have pitched so incredibly in the AL East — because I was against that trade the minute it happened and have been ever since. I can see both sides of the Abreu deal. Now that they’re spending so much on Drew, it makes their position on Abreu seem pretty untenable, however.

    Paul SF November 30, 2006, 3:54 pm
  • Discounting someones knowledge over name calling is fine, but present a case regardless. That prospective lineup I presented is SICK…That’s the point that can’t be disputed.

    Trikaidekaphobia November 30, 2006, 3:56 pm
  • I’m done with commenting on Drew. If he does well in Boston, I’ll admit to all the SF’s on this site that I’m a bad judge of a baseball player, and I’ll eat crow. You can spout every logical argument you want, but in the end I believe it will be a bad fit, and won’t turn out to the Sox’s advantage. Me being down on Drew has zero to do with the Sox possible aquisition of him. I was hoping he’d opt out of his K w/LA in August.

    bloodyank78 November 30, 2006, 3:59 pm
  • Paul, you are right on Sanchez, I am not sold, most likely a 4. But it meant keeping Hanley and the lineup above. Also I know Meredith isn’t Jesse Orosco, but the sox were starved for bp help LY.

    Trikaidekaphobia November 30, 2006, 4:00 pm
  • And by the way, YF… regarding your comment that these are the guys who brought us Papi and Schilling:
    Yeah. And they’re also the guys who brought us Riske, Tavarez, Clement, and about two dozen other pitchers who were a complete bust and I’m trying my best to forget… while trading away solid #4-#5 man (and fan favorite) Arroyo for The Wily One.
    Because, you see we “had too much pitching” going into 2006. Aaargh.
    Point being this management team is quite fallible enough. So the acquisitions of Papi and Schilling are hardly a reason not to question future moves.

    Hudson November 30, 2006, 4:10 pm
  • Chipper Jones is one of the “anonymous” players…this past year. Peter Gammonds was on WFAN yesterday and voiced the same opinions. No one argues that Drew is super talented and owuld be worth the money (by 2006 contract standards) if he were to play 150+ games for the next few seasons.
    He’s just never done that…and h comes with the reputation. Renteria came with the rep of being sensitive and a good guy…he was tore up for slumping in the beginning…it turned out he was senstiive and a good guy. Drew isn’t considered a good guy…just sensitive and with a questionable “passion” for playing under pressure and thru tough situations.

    walein November 30, 2006, 4:13 pm
  • Hudson, I did this post, not YF. But I was pretty surprised by the petition’s categorization of management’s activities. Are any of these moves really “huge” mistakes? And it’s not as if this management hasn’t got a lot more good done than bad. It’s impossible for any front office to not make a few mistakes (it’s the nature of this sport). Forecasting is difficult. So, yeah, the Sox front office is fallible. I’ve long said that in the face of the In Theo We Trust crowd. At the same time, the petition’s tone in that line was hyperbolic.

    Nick-YF November 30, 2006, 4:16 pm
  • I’m not dogging you, BY, I’m genuinely seeking evidence of some kind. It’s not just you saying this stuff, and I’m curious what events this perception comes from.
    At least with Manny, we can point to the Green Monster bathroom break, the trade requests, the suspicious All-Star Game absences, etc.

    Paul SF November 30, 2006, 4:19 pm
  • The Drew acquisition cannot be played off against the Abreu non-trade without context. The Red Sox would have had to give up Lester, Hansen, and I believe Crisp (someone correct me on this if I am wrong) to get Abreu, according to reports at the time. PLUS Abreu’s contract. Can people stop ignoring this fact?

    SF November 30, 2006, 4:51 pm
  • In defence of Trik, I do think he has point. Bill Simmons, of all people, has been making a similar argument: the Sox FO seem to be turning into the Yanks’ FO – trading away young studs (and in this day and age even a No4 starter is a young stud), bringing in high-priced veterans of questionable temperament, etc.
    Do I believe it? I’d like to, but I’m not sure I do. Maybe when the Sox trade Lil Papi and Hanson for Freddie Garcia in a mid-season panic :)
    For what it’s worth, I too don’t understand the logic in the Drew acquisition in terms of his rep. Then again, as John Heyman pointed out, perhaps the FO is using Moneyball principles to acquire a player who’s underrated because of his “attitude problems.” But I’m inclined to think that there’s no smoke without fire…

    Sam November 30, 2006, 4:55 pm
  • I knew the details were off there, SF. I couldn’t remember what the Red Sox said no to, but I knew it was a lot, and I know that Philly wasn’t happy about it because they (RS) drug out the process for so long. Which, is probably why the Yankees were able to get him for nothing at all. The Red Sox were getting fleeced for Abreu in that deal, and they knew it.

    Brad November 30, 2006, 4:55 pm
  • I don’t get it – why were the Sox being squeezed for three top players when the Yanks basically got him for free? Wasn’t that because the Sox didn’t want to pick up all of the tab? In that case, that should also be factored into consideration of their subsequent moves.

    Sam November 30, 2006, 4:59 pm
  • maybe ‘reports’ said it was alot (though I doubt as much as what you mentioned) but a deal was actually had for less.
    Brad, I cannot believe that Philly gave Abreu away for nothing because the sox took to long. The yanks are normally a perfect team to get to overpay, why give them a great deeal.

    Seth November 30, 2006, 5:03 pm
  • again, I wasn’t in the meetings so I don’t know for sure, Seth.

    Brad November 30, 2006, 5:05 pm
  • Philly also paid Abreu 1.5M to waive his no trade clause. It seemed they wanted to move him pretty bad. Maybe the red sox were being unreasonable, not the Phils.

    Seth November 30, 2006, 5:08 pm
  • “Wasn’t that because the Sox didn’t want to pick up all of the tab?”
    Sam, that’s my recollection as well.

    Nick-YF November 30, 2006, 5:08 pm
  • Check this out for some interesting takes on Drew and Manny;
    http://dodgerthoughts.baseballtoaster.com/archives/562017.html

    bloodyank78 November 30, 2006, 5:15 pm
  • The point is that the Sox had to give players AND money to get Abreu. Drew comes for just money. Those same people who rip the Sox for “turning into the Yankees” are being wrapped into a logical knot when they take the Abreu non-trade and Drew signing as evidence of that. The Sox turned down a deal in which the farm system would have been depleted, and instead are supposedly signing a guy at the cost of no young talent. Rip them for trading Ramirez and Sanchez (for a young frontline starter!), then rip them for NOT trading Lester, Hansen (for a super-expensive older corner outfielder)? That’s total BS, just a terrible position to be taking.

    SF November 30, 2006, 5:15 pm
  • You have a point, SF, but one could also take the position that the Sox have not only in the recent past traded away young talent but are now going for a very expensive veteran with a questionable attitude and injury history – isn’t that usually the Yankee way (cf Sheffield, Gary; Johnson, Randy)?

    Sam November 30, 2006, 5:29 pm
  • Well, the Yanks took the salary, and also got to pay Lidle. At some point the Phillies wanted to dump Lieber, but I guess that’s when Yanks said no..

    Lar November 30, 2006, 5:30 pm
  • SF – if the Dodgers offer arbitration, won’t the Sox have to give up a pick? I’m a bit confused by this, and of course, it’s “only a pick”..

    Lar November 30, 2006, 5:35 pm
  • The funny thing about all of those Dodger talks is that they actually find the Clement throw in a good idea…
    That makes me laugh.
    On another note, it’s always curious to see what other team’s fans say about a trade. Things like “no way do I give up X to get Manny” or “Manny’s good, but not good enough to give up X prospect, much less a MLer to go with him”. Really? Do these guys own a stat book or TV? IF LA got Manny for nothing but prospects, they should consider themselves the kings of trades, and hide the gun they used in the hold-up.

    Brad November 30, 2006, 5:39 pm
  • Man…wish I’d found this site sooner. Or at least started taking the time to post… Generally intelligent, civil banter between Boston and New York fans? Kick ass.
    Anyway just to test the waters…what’s the general opinion of WMP here? Breakout 2007 if he gets a fulltime gig, or total bust? I ask because it’s relevant if we’re talking about signing Drew and trading Ramirez…if people don’t think Pena is ready, then they’re more likely to view Drew as Manny’s replacement. If they do think he’s ready to contribute, not at Manny’s level of course but you get my point, then Drew’s signing can be graded in a different light.
    PS: I read somewhere that it isn’t clear the Dodgers are allowed to offer Drew arbitration. Something about it being stipulated in his contract…

    desturbd1 November 30, 2006, 5:40 pm
  • I would honestly say I wouldn’t give up pitching prospects for Manny, given the circumstances. That’s not to say I wouldn’t love to have Manny, but yaaa…
    Any other team that won’t want Manny is really kidding themselves..

    Lar November 30, 2006, 5:41 pm
  • In all fairness Brad there are quite a bit of voices on that site saying they don’t give a damn what they have to give up to get Manny. But, as for the ones you speak of, I agree, they’re delusional.

    bloodyank78 November 30, 2006, 5:46 pm
  • I think the Weisman column about Drew is quite good, and helps to put into context the many anonymous sources and “feelings” surrounding him. It also makes me, as a fence sitter, feel better about getting him.
    Welcome aboard, desturbd. I’m with the camp that feels WMP only needs a full-time gig to become a monster. When given full-time work in 2006, his Ks went down, his defense improved and he tore the cover off the ball. It’s why a Drew signing makes the most sense in the context of trading Manny for bullpen and infield help, so Pena can move to left, keeping his bat in the lineup while fielding him at an easier position.
    Assuming, of course, that trading Manny is in any way a good idea. And that all depends on the deal.

    Paul SF November 30, 2006, 5:55 pm
  • Welcome, desturbd. To answer your question, I don’t think any player will be a “direct” replacement for Manny. The SFs on this site have been pushing the line that Manny will equal Drew + a big player that Theo spins from the prospects he gets for Manny, A Jones or Wells or even Peavy.
    I still think WMP is a fourth outfielder. His plate discipline is still bad and his fielding is a joy to watch – for a YF. But Crisp, Andruw Jones and Drew is, I think the sort of thing that SFs are hoping for.
    Me? I’d never trade Manny.

    Sam November 30, 2006, 6:01 pm
  • Sorry in advance for the length of this post…heh, I tend to be pretty wordy.
    Agreed on all points, Paul. I love the Drew signing…I think he’ll stay healthy, and his personality issues haven’t exactly hurt his play. A career OPS over .900 and great D? Yeah, I’ll take it. I’m also a big Wily Mo fan, and I’m embarassed by how much anti-Drew backlash there’s been based entirely on his supposed personality flaws…yet Manny gets a free pass? Insanity.
    Sam-
    Hmm. I would say that if that’s what all the SF’s are arguing…they may want to try looking at this from a different angle. First off…Jones is a 30-year-old FA who will command $18-20MM a year for probably 5-7 years…and his agent is Scott Boras. I mean maybe you think he’s worth it…but I look at the career .345 OBP and a career OPS lower then Drew’s and I don’t like it, at least not for what it’d cost. And from what I’ve read…his D is in decline. Peavy, I don’t think is available for any price…and if he is, then his shoulder/elbow terrify me. And I don’t see Toronto trading us Wells in a season they think they can contend in.
    Again, I like Pena and could definately see him hitting .285/.340/.550 w/90+ RBI and 30-35 HR this season. So I view Drew as filling a different hole…not the one left by Manny. Namely, Drew adds some left-handed power, a real RF, (not really that concerned with injury problems) and either a 2 or 5-hole hitter. Depending on your preference.
    Same with Lugo, or whoever ends up playing short; it makes more sense to me to judge him in terms of actual value, not whether he and Drew can make up for the loss of Ramirez.
    Anyway, I would view the trade like this: Does WMP + Trade-Return = Manny’s 2007 Value?
    Or at least, does it come close to equal value? I’m not just talking offensively, since pitching is probably going to be involved. And this assessment only applies to the short-term impact of the trade, since long-term, dealing Manny can really only be beneficial for the club…barring some catastrophic trade for bust prospects, of course, which is unlikely given that Boston expects ML-ready talent.

    desturbd1 November 30, 2006, 6:27 pm
  • Welcome desturbd1 –
    It’s always nice to have another opinion on things – especially when they are the same as mine.
    Here’s my rundown:
    Only trade Manny if you know what’s coming when it’s all said and done. I don’t think that the Sox have any intention of keeping the players that Manny garnishes. Like above, I belive that Manny gets spun into something else – Jones maybe, but like you, I’m sure Boras is going to send him to FAgency next year, so an extension is probably out of question. That makes that deal nice for this year and this year only.
    Pena is a beast. He’s hit the biggest and hardest shots I’ve ever seen in Fenway this year. His homerun against Benson this year left Fenway faster than any I’ve seen since the All-Star game. Also, I like him alot: I was sitting in the second row behind the Pesky Pole during that game when he chased a foul ball that way. He got to the wall, and started talking to the kid sitting there – anyway, he pretended to steal the kids coke and ate one of the kid’s nachos. It’s nothing big, but I’m sure that’s the kind of guy he is. I belive that he’s an enormous untapped talent with an extreme upside and just needs the chance. He accidentally hits homeruns that he barely gets ahold of, and if he learns the zone, he’s going to be a monster. On his defense, I’m hoping for the best, but the wall made ManRam look ok, so I’m sure he’ll be fine if that’s where he’s at.
    Somehow, I think that Crisp will end up somewhere else, which I don’t particularly like, but I think it’s going to happen.

    Brad November 30, 2006, 7:25 pm
  • “and where are dc and WE to crap on this post? The silence is deafening”
    SF, unfortunately, I’m one of those poor bastards that has to work for a living.
    Lately, that’s meant 50-60 hour weeks in a high stress job. But I don’t mean to whine.
    Anyway, just walked in the door, looked at the mail, read the note from my wife( supper’s in the crockpot), decided to pop in to YanksfanvsSoxfan quick to see what’s up with the Sox and Yanks, and lo and behold, 6 comments in I see SF is wondering where I am. Aw, gee SF, I didn’t think you cared.
    Must be a controversial thread. 72 comments. I must chow down before I keel over. Back later to read what’s being said and decide if it’s worth throwing my 2 cents worth in.

    whatever November 30, 2006, 7:38 pm
  • “Like above, I belive that Manny gets spun into something else – Jones maybe, but like you, I’m sure Boras is going to send him to FAgency next year, so an extension is probably out of question. That makes that deal nice for this year and this year only.”
    So then you’d approve of what essentially turns into trading two years of Manny for 1 year of Jones? I guess that’s one way to look at it…making the penultimate push this season and then handing the Monster to Pena next year. But as far as trading for a known commodity is concerned…I’d argue that guys like Broxton and Loney are pretty well-known. They aren’t Andruw Jones…but even so. The difference between Jones and Pena-Trade may not be enough to justify swapping whatever pieces we get from the initial deal for Manny.

    desturbd1 November 30, 2006, 7:46 pm
  • Yeah, but one year of Jones (when combined with a much friendlier Fenway park) nets you 159 (avg) games, a serviceable protector of Ortiz, a great 3-4-5-6 combo of Ortiz, Jones, Pena, and Drew (all of whom can hurt you bad as a pitcher).
    Listen, I’m not a fan of trading Ramirez. But, in the face of the current market and his antics last year, I’m not totally aginst it. If it HAD to happen, I’d like to make sure that they get something back in the deal like Jones or Young.
    Also, I really do believe that Manny wants out, and I’m tired of standing up for Ramirez. I’m tired of the trade demands.
    There is something very unappealing about rooting for a guy that publicly says he wants out every year. I devote a large portion of my passion to this team, and as delisional as it may be, I’d like for the players on it to feel that same passion. If not about the Sox, at least about the game itself.
    If they’re going to trade him, now is the time when the market is so good for them to do so. Next year, there are quite a few outfielders available, so his two year deal only really looks great this year.
    I don’t know, I go back and forth, man.

    Brad November 30, 2006, 8:11 pm
  • Hey, you gotta love these passionate Sox fans. By God, if it’s for the good of the Red Sox, they’ll take matters into their own hands.
    Actually, they remind me of the far right religious conservatives. They’ve given their support for the cause, and now, goddamn it, they want their concerns taken into consideration. Heh.

    whatever November 30, 2006, 8:14 pm
  • dude, you love to act as if the Red Sox fanbase even closely resemble the Republican, conservative, bible-humping right. It’s like you sit down, think of the worst possible thing you can think of, and then somehow tie that to the Red Sox fans. It’s a schtick that is pretty old, and even more unoriginal. We’ve all (with a few exceptions) said that the whole thing is pretty stupid, so why the need to toss that little stinger in there?
    Besides, need I remind everyone of the real ties to the Republican far right? I can think of someone who was so knee-deep into it his turtleneck was wet.
    :))

    Brad November 30, 2006, 8:20 pm
  • BTW, If signing Drew means trading Manny, then to hell with this petition.
    All together now..Let’s sign J.D…clap..clap..clap.clap.clap. Let’s sign J.D…clap..clap..clap.clap.clap…Let’s trade Manny…clap..clap..clap.clap.clap. Lets trade Manny…clap..clap..clap.clap.clap.

    whatever November 30, 2006, 8:24 pm
  • “I don’t know, I go back and forth, man.”
    Me too. For me it all depends on what they get from the trade; there are certain combinations of guys, namely from the Dodgers, who I’d be happy to just hang onto. But if it isn’t exactly the right combo…screw it, let’s grab A. Jones, sign Matsuzaka, and hopefully it’s enough to take the division.
    “Actually, they remind me of the far right religious conservatives.”
    Don’t ever compare me to a religious conservative. That’s as insulting to me as…well, I don’t even know, I really can’t stand religious fanatics. Heh. You’re right though, the more ogrish among us do behave with the same uninformed, obnoxious, and overly aggressive fervor. But the exact same can be said for some Yankee fans…

    desturbd1 November 30, 2006, 8:25 pm
  • Brad,Brad,Brad, Once again you misinterpret.
    I wasn’t referring to all Sox fans, just the ones way out there that started this petition. And not to their political values, just the way they were acting. Did you notice the “Heh” at the end of my comment? That it was a tongue in cheek observation? For Christ’s sake Brad, you think I don’t know that Boston is one of the more liberal cities in the country? That’s what I find frustrating about this site. Someone like you will take what is said wrong and it has to get nasty.
    You know what Brad? You suck the fun right out of commenting at this site with your less than stellar perception.
    And by the way, it’s bible thumping, not bible humping. Unreal.

    whatever November 30, 2006, 8:56 pm
  • Actually, it’s bible whatever the hell I want it to be – who are you the name police?
    Also, the only thing that sucks here is your lame-ass jokes and your even lamer political comparisons. Please spare me the
    tongue in cheek crap. If you don’t mean it, don’t say it. For instance, when I say that mosts of your posts are garbage, I mean it. I don’t back down from it. If you’re not having fun, then don’t do it. Is there someone there twisting your arm and forcing you to post?
    My “less than stellar perception” is your opinion. And, it seems you’re the only one who thinks so. But, that’s your deal – you jump into an argument, make some immature remarks re: Sox fans, then try to act all bad-ass to anyone who responds. Remember telling Quo the to “not piss me off”? Why? You going to crawl through the monitor? If you’d like to really add something to the good thread we had going here, so be it. Just keep the insults (unfounded and uninformed as they are) to yourself – especially when you’re threats are empty and almost funny.
    I would add a “heh” to the end of my post, but since I stand by it, I wont.
    Oh what the hell, heh.
    PS – I defintely meant a more IMmature way. But, that’s my MO. Hack up the English language as best I can, get the nerves up, and hope to not get an internet beat down from our resident baseball professional. Yeah, I’m the unreal one.

    Brad November 30, 2006, 9:15 pm
  • Of course I’m kidding WE. You think I don’t know you’re a muscle-bound, kung-fu expert with a vast knowledge of how to hide bodies? I’m sure you have advanced degrees from both Harvard and Yale sine you’re always correcting everyone and resort to name calling in a very subtle way. Dude, I can’t even crawl onto the same floor you dance on.
    Please forgive me.

    Brad November 30, 2006, 9:25 pm
  • …lockland, you’ve got a lot of nerve lecturing anyone on name-calling…are you the same lockland that called me an “ass” last week because you didn’t agree with my post, and didn’t have a legitimate comeback?…you give sf’s a bad name with your blatant hypocrisy…when i called on the site’s masters to show some outrage with you, there was stunned silence…that was a bummer, but i understand the rules of the site better now…you’re annoyed with trika because he’s right about many of his points and you have no comeback…bottom line is that you can’t throw stones at the yanks moves, when your management has made some questionable ones too…that’s what makes the debate fun, until guys like you get annoyed at how it’s going…i’ll quote you: “…you can apologize all you want for the name calling, I’m certain you didn’t know that was frowned on here, but it is obviously your true colors or you wouldn’t have said it to begin with….”…amen, my friend…
    brad, i’ve been trying not to pick fights with you, so don’t take this the wrong way, but part of what WE is saying is that a few months ago you guys defended manny like a mother bear defends her cubs…i was lambasted for pointing out some of the very “flaws” you now seem to believe are there…so, since it looks like manny’s partway out the door, what the heck, give him a kick in the butt…it doesn’t matter, he’s no longer a sock…

    dc November 30, 2006, 9:59 pm
  • Brad, You’ve just proved my point and then some. You’ve gone beyond moronic and into a whole new realm of idiocy.
    My mistake was even acknowledging your presence.
    Brad, listen carefully. You’re an intellectually constipated dullard with a severe case of diarrhea of the mouth, who of course, is not bright enough to realize his limitations. I really can’t waste my time with this shit.
    Brad, remember earlier when I said you gave Sox fans a bad name? This is why. Most of the Sox fans here are on the ball. But you are the bottom of the barrel when it comes to brains. Seriously!
    Anyway, enough of this. I know this site is a big deal to you, and I can basically take it or leave it. I don’t have a lot of time anyway, so you go ahead and continue to carry on as one of the true multi-faceted gems of YFSvsSF.

    whatever November 30, 2006, 10:03 pm
  • “Man…wish I’d found this site sooner. Or at least started taking the time to post… Generally intelligent, civil banter between Boston and New York fans? Kick ass.”
    C’mon…I said that like 5 hours ago. Tone it down and stick to the baseball. And I realize I’m new and am largely unaware of prior grievances, but still…
    People are waaay too sensitive on the Internet…if something pisses you off or offends you just leave it alone or make a joke about it…odds are whoever’s being a a dick is going to lose face with everyone else whether he realizes it or not.
    PS: I’m not saying I’ll NEVER stoop to making cracks about somebody’s intelligence…because no matter how hard I try to keep it civil, I get irrationally angry sometimes, too. And maybe this is all out of the ordinary and I just happened to get here at one of those rare moments when people are decidedly snippier then usual. But regardless…let’s give it a rest, huh?

    desturbd1 December 1, 2006, 12:08 am
  • Ah, so a regular is a troll?

    Lar December 1, 2006, 2:31 am
  • …is that in response to me? Cuz, I don’t really understand the question…

    desturbd1 December 1, 2006, 2:34 am
  • Brad’s posts are usually 75% anrgry and vitrolic. Oh, and sometimes sarcastic to boot. He’s a shock-trooper of RSN, always toeing the party line.

    bloodyank78 December 1, 2006, 3:59 am
  • The SFs on this site have been pushing the line that Manny will equal Drew + a big player that Theo spins from the prospects he gets for Manny, A Jones or Wells or even Peavy.
    Not sure this is true. I think this is more of a wish list, not a “what will be” if Manny is traded. In fact, I don’t think any of us SFs are deluded that Peavy for Manny has a good chance of happening: I mentioned earlier that that would be a “dream”. Paul has been pushing the Jones idea, but only as a possible secondary deal and as a suggestion, not as a real, rumored deal. The idea is that if Manny gets traded for high-level prospects, the Sox will then have a stockpile of the commodity that lower-payroll teams with productive players nearing free agency might want. Not unreasonable, but certainly no guarantee of any moves going forward. In fact, I haven’t yet seen any deals involving Manny that have been rumored to include proven talent; acquiring a productive player would seemingly have to come from a secondary deal.
    And welcome to Desturbed1. Glad to have you aboard.

    SF December 1, 2006, 8:48 am
  • Brad’s posts are usually 75% anrgry and vitrolic. Oh, and sometimes sarcastic to boot. He’s a shock-trooper of RSN, always toeing the party line.
    wow. I’ll try to play nice with Whatever since it’s clear he can dish it but can’t recieve it. I agree with the new guy, and I’ll leave it alone.
    BY78, that’s how you feel? Why, because I refuse to say sorry for how I feel on things? It’s strange because normally you and I get along pretty well on most issues -but whatever is a totally different beast. He needs to call names and insult intelligence ( the normal M.O. for his own lack thereof), and I’ll call him out on it again. His reply makes no sense, and is nothing more than a poorly written statement of anger.
    If you guys feel that my posts come off as anger, I’ll try to calm it down a ‘bit, or at least reword them differently: Except with Whatever, who can kiss my ass on any and every subject we discuss.

    Brad December 1, 2006, 9:25 am
  • Whatever:
    I don’t know what your problem is but give it a rest. Insulting my intelligence is a low, mindless and angry way to go about things. If you have a issue or something you’d like to add to anything, I’m more than happy to have a decent conversation about it with you. I’d prefer to not argue with you on every single subject you bring up, or jump into because of stupid jokes or back handed comments. I agree with a lot of what you say in mosts of your posts, and you know it. Saying that I give anyone a bad name is in poor taste. I’m man enough to say I’m sorry for jumping down your throat last night, and that it was probably uncalled for. Let’s stop this stuff because both sides are wrong here. I have no idea what you’re intelligence level may or may not be, and it’s wrong for me to assume. I only take such offense to the issue because you’re so wrong when you try to bring that up.
    There. I said I’m sorry, now let’s leave it at that. If we argue, which we are going to, let’s just keep it above the line. If you feel the need to insult someone instead of having a decent discussion, then maybe this isn’t the place for us to hash this out.

    Brad December 1, 2006, 9:38 am
  • DC –
    I agree with your points. But, I have no option but to stand by Manny as long as he’s on the Red Sox. At the time, your issue was that ManRam was lazy, which I think is completely off base. If you’d said he’s an air-head, I would agree. If you’d said he does what he wants in spite of his teams needs, I tend to agree as well. I’m not kicking him out the door, as you say. I made clear in my post that it’s not my choice and I don’t stand behind it.
    All I said is that I was finding it more and more difficult to support the issue, or defend him. IF, they’re going to trade him, there’s clearly nothing I can do about it, so I may as well go with the flow.

    Brad December 1, 2006, 9:45 am
  • I’m not trying to be a mediator, but the way I see it is that WE and Brad are both basically reasonable intelligent guys who are passionate and for whatever reason rub each other the wrong way.
    This site is based on a fundamental disagreement — that of being fans of two archrivals, and we all grew up learning to hate the other team, and in some cases, the fans of the other team. Overcoming those biases to find common ground in our mutual love of the sport and the rivalry is what makes this site so great.
    I do think the intensely personal attacks we’ve seen here tarnish that a bit, and while I don’t think it’s indicative of the site as a whole, I do think it detracts from the otherwise sensible nature of the debate and obscures the otherwise valid points of its participants.
    You don’t have to like each other, or even be particularly nice — we all disagree, and I’ve been involved in my share of strident debates and angry retorts. Just please be civil, as we all strive to be.

    Paul SF December 1, 2006, 11:11 am
  • Brad, I meant it as a compliment. You always vigorously defend any barb or knock on your Sox, and you usually do it with some quite intelligent and passionate arguments. Do those arguments come off as angry? Yeah, 3/4 of the time, but’s that’s ok. Someone was just trying to rip your team, you should be a bit pissed. By shock troop I meant you’re one of the first SF’s on this site that will jump in and defend your team. I like the way you argue in your posts, even if they come off as angry, hey this site is YF v. SF, right ? :P

    bloodyank78 December 1, 2006, 12:21 pm
  • gotcha, BY78. Ditto.

    Brad December 1, 2006, 12:31 pm
  • …so it’s not ok if someone calls me an “ass”, even if i’m being one?…my family and i just finished decorating our freshly cut Christmas tree…”happy holidays” [a bit early] to my good friends [all of you, even the sf’s…hee] on yf v. sf…

    dc December 1, 2006, 9:11 pm
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