Dusting Dustin

This slide (no embed available) by A-Rod has stirred up a little controversy (sorry, Dustin, I couldn’t help myself…).  We’re not sure we understand why some fans at SoSH are so up in arms about it (the thread is FOUR pages and counting…).  Sure, it was a little over-the-top. Sure, it was a big guy picking on a little guy.  Sure, it involved an elbow, a groin area, and a nearly turned knee/ankle for our diminutive second baseman.  And yeah, we know it was A-Rod.  But this is a takeout slide, an attempt to break up a double play.  And though we want the game played clean, there’s a limit to what realistic expectations should be in this regard.  A-Rod had to break up the double play.  He did.  Just like we’d expect Youk or Tek or Papi to do.

The best part of this is the revelation that Dustin Pedroia is smart and gets what happened. He has handled himself like a veteran and not a rookie, responding cleverly that now he knows what to expect, and that next time he’ll just adjust his arm slot.  That’s a strong message and should be the end of it.  Retaliation, as some Sox fans have (foolishly) called for, is hardly needed.   

58 comments… add one
  • He could have “slapped” him on the face with the glove, and part of the “incidental” contact…

    OleElvis May 23, 2007, 10:51 am
  • I didn’t see the entire play, only the youtube clip. Did Pedroia turn the DP?
    I wouldn’t characterize that as a mere “takeout” slide, which I think of as the runner sliding into and through the fielder. Pedroia effectively got out of the way, so Arod popped back up and dropped a shoulder into his mid-section. I’d be surprised if Schilling didn’t acknowledge the maneuver with a well placed rib-shot of his own.

    Tyrel SF May 23, 2007, 11:06 am
  • Yeah, sorry, that’s not a takeout slide, he had already slid, hit the bag, he then pops up and changes direction completely, driving his elbow in to Pedroia’s mid section, just missing the crotch.
    Sorry, not the same thing, an illegal cheap shot that the ump missed.
    I’m not the riled up about it and agree that the SOSH guys need to relax, I also don’t think we should retaliate in any way.

    LocklandSF May 23, 2007, 11:12 am
  • YouTube Clip of the Elbow
    http://tinyurl.com/2b5a9t

    LocklandSF May 23, 2007, 11:14 am
  • He got the ball to Youk, but no, the DP was not turned.
    If it was a relaliatory move for a slide by Dustin v. Jeter in the first game (which I didn’t see, anyone able to point me to a clip), then wouldn’t his other not-clean slide count for that?
    I don’t want them to get beanball happy, that’s not really my point. I guess my point is, if DP slid outside the baseline in game 1, and then A-Rod did on the first DP-type play he was involved in, then why would his play in the 8th inning have been a neccessary retaliatory move, from the YF perspective? Anyone? None of the three were clean slides, if I’m reading everything correctly (and I admit I only saw the A-Rod plays), so there’d now be one from the RS and two from the MFYs.
    Btw, I feel like most of the SOSHers in that thread have been fairly level-headed, SF, even if it is possibly a bit too much discussion for something like this. Other than a few individuals, the underlying theme I got was that the best revenge would be to leave there 11.5 games up. And I agree with ’em.

    QuoSF May 23, 2007, 11:16 am
  • Whether or not it’s appropriate, who wouldn’t want to see Curt hit A-Rod in the nuts with a pitch?

    rcharbon May 23, 2007, 11:26 am
  • The video has been yanked from YT.

    attackgerbil May 23, 2007, 11:30 am
  • SF, you are right on point with this one. I really don’t see the big deal here. Anyone that has ever played the game on any level knows breaking up the double play could quite possibly be the most spontaneous act you will have to perform in the game. You have to get far enough down to 2nd to interrupt the throw, you have to slide at the player rather then the base because he is told to step and move. Sometimes you end up rolling in, sometimes you slide half way down to 2nd, it’s extremely spontaneous and unpredictable. Alex was just doing what any player on a team that need a win would have done.
    PS – Do Sox fans always need a rallying point? It’s always something. A-Rod and Tek, A-Rod and Arroyo, The Idiots. Relax RSN you have to best record in the game, you have a 10.5 game lead, you don’t have to be on the defensive all the time.

    Triskaidekaphobia May 23, 2007, 11:30 am
  • Slides like that happen all the time. Its part of the game. If Arod were wearing a Sox uniform many of the same people complaining about it would be saying how gritty it was etc. Most MLB players try to do whatever they can to win on the envelope of the rules. 2 days ago Mirabelli ran all the way from home to first on the grass resulting in a bad throw and an error from Bruney. A good play from the sox perspective but legal? As far as retaliation goes seriously whats the point (as many have said) you guys have a huge lead and just dont need that. Although maybe it would wake the yankees up…

    sam YF May 23, 2007, 11:30 am
  • Ok, you can view the clip here now if you hurry, before the MLB Nazis move in!
    http://tinyurl.com/35xxvr

    LocklandSF May 23, 2007, 11:38 am
  • Trisk, you’re calling this a rallying point?
    A-Rod and Tek = should he have taken off the mask first? Probably.
    A-Rod and Arroyo = clearly a bush league move. I’m not sure there’s room to argue or a YF foolish enough to argue about this.
    The Idiots = dead and gone.
    And you know what, sometimes teams need a rallying point, or a clubhouse that would be loose enough and comfortable enough with each other to have a common rallying point.
    As far as this being a rallying point?
    Some quotes from SFs on this very thread
    “I’d be surprised if Schilling didn’t acknowledge the maneuver with a well placed rib-shot of his own.” – Tyrel SF
    Note that he doesn’t call for it, the implication you could take from this is that it would be surprising if Schilling didn’t do something in relatiation. While I hope he doesn’t, I agree with that idea.
    “I’m not the riled up about it and agree that the SOSH guys need to relax, I also don’t think we should retaliate in any way.” – LocklandSF
    Not sure where the rallying cry is in this one. I’ll try to go back and look over it again.
    “Whether or not it’s appropriate, who wouldn’t want to see Curt hit A-Rod in the nuts with a pitch?” – rcharbon
    Not calling for retaliation exactly, but would be amused on some level if Curt hits A-Rod in the nuts with a pitch.
    So yeah, Trisk, I missed the “rallying point” you speak of. But okay. I could mischaracterize you and say you’re just trying to use this incident to pigeonhole SFs and specifically the SFs here. And say “Why do YFs always have to pigeonhole SFs?” But…not going to.

    QuoSF May 23, 2007, 11:42 am
  • It amazes me that anyone can look at that and still say it was just a gritty attempt to break up a DP, it wasn’t, it was a calculated and intentional cheap shot. It wasn’t even a “hard slide” as some have said, the slide was over, he then popped up, changed direction completely and drove his elbow in to Pedoia’s midsection.
    For the record, I would condemn a Red Sox player for doing the same thing, every day and twice on Sunday.

    LocklandSF May 23, 2007, 11:43 am
  • And hell, if it even was a rallying point, what’s so bad about that? An incident we can point to, where we at least see a MFY player in the wrong, by quite a bit, and use that in some kind of blend of unifying anger and also pride in our team. How would that be a bad thing?

    QuoSF May 23, 2007, 11:55 am
  • If Arod were wearing a Sox uniform many of the same people complaining about it would be saying how gritty it was etc.
    And if Youk had done this to Jeter you guys would be silent. Right. I think this is overblown, but the idea that this is just SFs doing their thing (some are, for sure), finding something to rally around, and that YFs wouldn’t be acting similarly were the positions reversed is a bit silly.
    Let’s not do this, ok?

    SF May 23, 2007, 11:58 am
  • 2 years ago, at a yanks-sox game in September I attended, Varitek bowled over Posada at the plate. When he got up after the play, he slammed Posada down to the ground, injuring him. He was out for 3 games in the midst of a pennant race.
    When asked about the play, Torre said it was just baseball – nothing else came of it. This is a similar situation – just tough baseball. It’s a non-issue.

    Andrews May 23, 2007, 12:06 pm
  • Stop trolling, Andrews.
    ;-)

    SF May 23, 2007, 12:08 pm
  • If you’ll stop being a di#kbag, SF :)

    Andrews May 23, 2007, 12:11 pm
  • I dunno, I think the hubbub over the elbow issue is a bit much. It’s pretty cheap, and I don’t think I’d be happy if one of the Sox did it, but it seemed fairly heat of the moment, and it DID let a run score. I’m not too worked up over it. As many have said, I’d prefer a win in today’s game over other kinds of retribution.

    Devine May 23, 2007, 12:16 pm
  • Andrews, got a link to a story about the Tek-Posada incident? I’ve been googling for about ten minutes.

    QuoSF May 23, 2007, 12:23 pm
  • No. I was at the game and saw it personally.

    Andrews May 23, 2007, 12:27 pm
  • That didn’t ring any bells for me, either.

    MJL in L.A. May 23, 2007, 12:28 pm
  • The game was on Sept 9, 2005, if that helps.
    Probably not a lot to find – as I said, Torre downplayed it in the postgame.

    Andrews May 23, 2007, 12:33 pm
  • Nick-YF May 23, 2007, 12:36 pm
  • “When asked about the play, Torre said it was just baseball – nothing else came of it. This is a similar situation – just tough baseball. It’s a non-issue. ”
    torre said no big deal so that makes it official? i dont think francona called for anybodys head either. that donesnt mean it wasnt a crap play.

    Ric May 23, 2007, 12:51 pm
  • Maybe there’s more to that play, but I went to the Yankees media archives on MLB.com to watch the play, and Tek just kind of barrels in hard to try to knock the ball loose, Posada holds on, and then Tek gets up and walks away. Maybe they cut out the rest? But it’s the YES feed, so you have to imagine they’d have left it all in.

    QuoSF May 23, 2007, 1:02 pm
  • Posada said after Friday’s game that he was surprised Varitek bowled him over, because he always expected runners to slide. But he said yesterday that he was not upset with Varitek for plowing into him.
    ”It’s baseball, man,” Posada said. ”It’s part of it. That’s the way it is. I would have done the same thing.”
    Manager Joe Torre said Varitek had every right to crash into Posada, who hung in front of the plate a moment too long as he tried to secure the throw. He held on to the ball after impact.
    ”The only reason you stand there is to get a better grip on the ball,” said Torre, a former catcher. ”But if you don’t give the base runner any part of the plate, his job is to remove you.”

    There’s absolutely nothing in the story about a secondary body slam, as Andrews alludes to.

    SF May 23, 2007, 1:24 pm
  • For those who don’t have a NYT subscription, here’s the gist:
    “Posada said after Friday’s game that he was surprised Varitek bowled him over, because he always expected runners to slide. But he said yesterday that he was not upset with Varitek for plowing into him.
    ”It’s baseball, man,” Posada said. ”It’s part of it. That’s the way it is. I would have done the same thing.”
    Manager Joe Torre said Varitek had every right to crash into Posada, who hung in front of the plate a moment too long as he tried to secure the throw. He held on to the ball after impact.
    Quo, my seats were down the third base line, so I had a clear view of the play. When Varitek got up, he slammed Posada down- plain and simple.
    I would like to see what they have on mlb.com, though. Do you have a link? Do you need a subscription?
    -andrews

    Anonymous May 23, 2007, 1:27 pm
  • “There’s absolutely nothing in the story about a secondary body slam, as Andrews alludes to.”
    Look, I was there. I saw it. My eyes don’t lie. Unless you were at the game I don’t think you’re in any position to cast doubt on what I observed. Really no need to be nasty, is there?
    That being said I always wondered why the slam wasn’t mentioned. No doubt it happened.

    Anonymous May 23, 2007, 1:30 pm
  • me

    Andrews May 23, 2007, 1:31 pm
  • Whoa, Dude, you have GOT to chill. The story has nothing about the slam as you alluded to, that’s all I said. The story DOESN’T MENTION A SLAM, that’s it.
    Stop looking for a fight.

    SF May 23, 2007, 1:40 pm
  • Interesting. Here are pics from September 9th, ’05, and I see no body slam at all, anywhere.
    http://www.jason-varitek.com/gallery/cpg143/displayimage.php?album=81&pos=4

    SF May 23, 2007, 1:43 pm
  • http://tinyurl.com/ywvt5x
    “Posada holds on” on September 9, 2005. No subscription required.

    QuoSF May 23, 2007, 1:51 pm
  • it appears that he threw some kind of foreign object in his Jorge’s eyes right before colliding with him! Dirty dirty player.

    Nick-YF May 23, 2007, 1:54 pm
  • Very funny, SF…
    I’m not looking for a fight anymore than you are, but I have to say I have a problem with you implying that I’m stretching the truth, based on newspaper stories. I was there, I had good seats, and I have no doubt about what I saw.

    Andrews May 23, 2007, 1:55 pm
  • Btw, the YES announcer with Kay on the play (I don’t know who it is): “Boy, that is good old country hardball between two catchers there…catcher-to-catcher: block the plate, see if I can knock you over. Good, hard, clean baseball.”

    QuoSF May 23, 2007, 1:55 pm
  • Andrews, you just got owned.

    LocklandSF May 23, 2007, 1:56 pm
  • Andrews, I’m sure you were there and had good seats, and no doubt about what you think you saw.
    Good seats…did you also have good beer? Because otherwise…

    QuoSF May 23, 2007, 1:56 pm
  • Didn’t DP do a “dirty” play on DJ? Errr, well, us YF didn’t make much of a fuss about it, did we?
    Or are we not gritty for not bringing it up?

    Lar May 23, 2007, 1:57 pm
  • Lar, and as we have brought up MANY times already, Arod did the exact same thing in the 6th, so he must play by the two eyes for an eye rule considering his elbow in the 8th.

    LocklandSF May 23, 2007, 1:59 pm
  • That was Jim Kaat.
    Looks a lot different from what I saw. Hard to argue – maybe I should have my eyes checked.
    And yes I always drink good beer…

    Andrews May 23, 2007, 2:02 pm
  • Lar,
    AG brought it up today, with photo, and he’s right. Most SFs have acknowledged it. Not sure about dirty, but not a legal slide, just like what A-Rod did in the 6th inning yesterday. THEN A-Rod had his 8th inning shenanigans.
    Good god, I’ll sum it up again.
    Game 1: DP vs. Jeter: illegal slide, out of the baseline.
    Game 2, 6th inning: A-Rod: illegal slide, out of the baseline.
    Game 2, 8th inning: A-Rod: legal slide, then jump up a little bit and elbow Pedroia.
    There’s really no need to make a big deal out of this, not sure any SFs have, but okay. YFs didn’t make a big deal out of DP in Game 1, and SFs didn’t make a big deal out of A-Rod’s first slide in Game 2. The second instance is clearly more egregious.

    QuoSF May 23, 2007, 2:02 pm
  • Andrews,
    To be fair, whenever I see Jeter make a tough hard-nosed baseball play, I always imagine him simultaneously flipping off everyone in attendance, unless at Yankee Stadium.

    QuoSF May 23, 2007, 2:05 pm
  • Ha.

    Andrews May 23, 2007, 2:07 pm
  • but I have to say I have a problem with you implying that I’m stretching the truth
    Again, you are reading too much into my comment. All I wrote was that the story didn’t mention what you saw. I was following up on the link that Nick provided since he doesn’t have Times Select, that’s why I clipped the paragraphs. I wasn’t implying anything about your truthfulness in any way, and I am sorry you took it that way.

    SF May 23, 2007, 2:14 pm
  • Because I haven’t offered my opinion up until now, I’ll give one. This is a non-story. A-Rod’s play was probably not the most ethical one in the world. I guess this means he’s a jerk and Sox fans can feel good that they don’t have any jerks, like A-Rod, on their team. And Yanks fans can point to any number of jerks on the other team and feel good about that. The only controversial thing I’ll say on this topic is to throw out one of those much-used hypotheticals which perhaps shines some kind of light on the nature of our discussion. If the immortal Miguel Cairo had done the same thing, we would not be talking about this. If David Ortiz did, we would be talking about this. If Manny did, we’d be talking about it as well. Why this observation is relevant? In my view, it’s because elements in our respective fanbases operate under the delusion this rivalry is a morality play. In order to claim moral superiority we grasp at any opportunity where the main players either falter to somehow claim the moral highground. But it doesn’t seem that we truly are disturbed by an unethical play on its own. Again, Miguel Cairo doing this would not elicit much, if any, reaction.
    We’re all fans of baseball here. Some of us are more prone to seeing that world in terms of statistics and laws of averages and other such things. My feeling is that over the history of this rivalry there have probably been an equal number of “good” and “bad” guys on both the teams we root for. The law of averages strongly suggests this to be the case. Even in a small sample of one season, this is probably the case. Let’s move on. This is a no-go discussion.

    Nick-YF May 23, 2007, 2:19 pm
  • I agree with most of what you say, Nick. The only quibble I have is that in this specific case we’re not talking about a 50-50 split on the play in question. It seems like a majority of Sox fans (and some Yankees fans) at this site agree that the play was untoward but understandable, hard-nosed baseball and nothing to get too wacky about (this was the jist of my post, after all – I think a four to five page thread on the subject is kind of funny/silly, so it’s ironic that we’re now approaching their equivalent of three pages!). And there’s been almost no A-Rod-centric bashing here, early commenters aside. So I have to say that I don’t feel like this is a great example of the morality play – for the most part, we all think this was just part of the game, pretty or not pretty. Nonetheless, I do understand (and agree, for the most part) with what you write.

    SF May 23, 2007, 2:28 pm
  • SF – Fair enough. Sorry I took it the wrong way.

    Andrews May 23, 2007, 2:38 pm
  • Cool, all’s copacetic, A.

    SF May 23, 2007, 2:40 pm
  • Anyway you slice it, reading the boards at LoHud, NYYFans, RSN.net and SOSH, this is going to be a very interesting night, on the field and in the stands.
    I’m really hoping the Red Sox don’t take the bait, just win the game and make that your message.

    LocklandSF May 23, 2007, 2:49 pm
  • nick is dead on with the morality debate we tend to lend our arguments to. no ones gonna win that discussion. that being said, i hope donnelly and proctor don’t see any action tonite.

    sf rod May 23, 2007, 2:56 pm
  • “No exception. None whatsoever,” A-Rod responds. “They have their opinions over there. I’m just glad it got us a run. I like Pedroia. I have a lot of respect for those guys over there.
    “Every run for us is like huge. I’m just not going to go in like a little baby doll and try to hug him. I’m trying to play hard.”
    A-Rod was told that Pedroia may change his throwing motion to avoid such a play.
    “That’s a good idea,” A-Rod said. “I played shortstop for a long time and some guys really hit you hard. I barely touched him (Pedroia).”

    Anonymous May 23, 2007, 4:43 pm
  • “It was an awkward slide,” A-Rod said. “We we’re fighting for every run. I’m playing as hard as I can. I kind of came up. I definitely didn’t roll or anything like that. It was definitely not intentional.”
    He might not have “rolled” but he did change directions and lunge, elbow first. It was a split second reaction to the play, and he got away with it.
    Said it before, and some SFs and YFs alike took exception to it, but I’d be surprised if Schilling, the self-appointed Sheriff of the Sox, didn’t send Arod the message that it’s not okay to body check our rookie 2B. Hard slides are part of the game. So are message pitches.

    Tyrel SF May 23, 2007, 4:55 pm
  • A-Rod was told that Pedroia may change his throwing motion to avoid such a play.
    “That’s a good idea,” A-Rod said. “I played shortstop for a long time and some guys really hit you hard. I barely touched him (Pedroia).”

    Someone didn’t tell A-Rod what Pedroia said (the writer of this story doesn’t get it, clearly), exactly, or they did and A-Rod doesn’t get it. Pedroia said he’d change his motion next time A-Rod came barrelling down the line. He didn’t say he was going to change his motion in general. One statement is actually a dig at Rodriguez and a comment on his style, the other is not.

    SF May 23, 2007, 5:05 pm
  • Sorry, I’m very confused. I was just replying to someone saying “If a Sox did it, the Yanks would complain!” But we didn’t (as far as I notice, I haven’t been superactively this week..)
    I must say though, I didn’t realize there were two of these instances..

    Lar May 23, 2007, 5:45 pm
  • I didn’t read it like that SF, I thought Alex was acknowledging that it would be a good idea to dissuade takeout slides by throwing from a lower slot since some guys come in hard.

    tom yf May 23, 2007, 5:55 pm
  • i wasn’t for a message pitch until a-rod opened his mouth. i hope yf’s understand this isn’t about the yankees, it’s solely about alex. he deserves everything he gets. it won’t be schill, it will be donnelly.

    sf rod May 23, 2007, 6:24 pm
  • my problem with the play was because it was clearly interference beyond what should be allowed in terms of takeout slides (cf all the descriptions above about the change of direction before the elbow). it was not called and a run scored on the red sox. how could you expect sox fans not to be irked by that?
    that said, i love how fast this conversation sidetracked into debate over a varitek / posada play years ago, as if two wrongs would make a right? seems a common pattern in YF / SF debate, but it’s annoying. like SF said above, “let’s not do this.” either the guy made a bush league play or he didn’t. personally, i think he did.

    beth May 23, 2007, 6:55 pm
  • Eh. As long as those double play guys don’t ‘need’ to touch the bag to get the out at second (just need to be near it I guess is the unwritten rule), people sliding into the base can go wherever they want.

    Andrew May 24, 2007, 1:54 am

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