Red Sox trade:
Red sox get:
by Paul SF on July 31, 2007 at 4:39 pm in
General Red Sox,General Yankees · 49 comments
Wow, and they gave away Pineiro. That’s amazing.
Lar July 31, 2007 at 4:47 pm
My own needling post aside, I think the Yanks made a good trade to get Betemit (Betamit? It’s always the short names that are tough). And, really, Cliff Corcoran is about right on the Banter when he says:
“No way the Sox are sweating the Yanks here. They made that move for the postseason and, provided they can keep Gagne healthy for it, it could very well pay off that way. The Sox are in position to make a deal to get a Championship, the Yankees are not. Both teams appear to have made the right deal for them.
I agree and disagree with that last sentence. When you’re 5 games out of a playoff slot, it’s hard to say the Yankees should be trading for future depth and “A-Rod insurance.” On the other hand, you don’t break the bank for a deal that may or may not get you into the playoffs by the skin of your teeth. The Yanks were in a tough situation.
Paul SF July 31, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Still baffled as to when Oki will be used, vs. Gagne. Is it an alternating thing? Does Oki close when Paps needs rest?
I mean, the guy has a freaking 0.87 ERA over 51 innings. Yeah, Gagne is a star, and a 2.25 ERA ain’t no slouch, but still…
Hudson July 31, 2007 at 4:52 pm
My guess is that none of them are going to be overused, Hudson. Just try to set up some kind of situation where you have favorable matchups at the innings start, and Pap always closes unless he needs the rest. Always make sure that you don’t use any of them three days in a row, and you end up with fresh arms in October. It’s such a nice problem to have.
Brad July 31, 2007 at 4:54 pm
According to ESPN:
Gagne waived the no-trade clause in his contract to make the deal official. He’ll serve as Jonathan Papelbon’s setup man and close on days that Papelbon is getting rest.
Sounds like Oki is now the 7th inning set-up guy.
Hudson July 31, 2007 at 4:54 pm
Brenden Donnelly is undergoing Tommy John surgery on Monday. It’s all making sense now.
Brad July 31, 2007 at 4:57 pm
You truly never know what goes on behind closed doors, but you can’t tell me the Yankees couldn’t put together a BETTER package then Kason Gabbard, Murphy and a box of balls. Cash you got played, Theo great job. This season just continues to get worse…2007 AL East Champion Red Sox merchandise on sale now!
FYI 2 Major League teams contacted Cash about Igawa and he told them BOTH he wasn’t available. My Lord!
John - YF (Trisk) July 31, 2007 at 5:03 pm
That’s funny, Trisk.
Brad July 31, 2007 at 5:05 pm
dc July 31, 2007 at 5:07 pm
This does feel a bit like the reverse of last year, when I (correctly) said the Yankees were favorites for the AL East after the Abreu deal, and I gave Cashman props for making that deal (I think, implied if not, anyway).
I still wish for some Drew/Ortiz insurance, though. Still, getting Gagne doesn’t suck at all!
2006 trading deadline winner: Cashman
Devine July 31, 2007 at 5:09 pm
Igawa is the future Dice K!
Blah July 31, 2007 at 5:10 pm
I said it before and i’ll say it again. I think Igawa is gonna have a very good season next year.
TJ July 31, 2007 at 5:13 pm
“Igawa is the future Dice K!”
Yeah Andrew Dice K!!!
God Bless you TJ and your optimism!
John - YF (Trisk) July 31, 2007 at 5:20 pm
I’ll be the first to say it:
Yanks were in the same position as the Sox last year. They could have overpaid for a move that *maybe* could have made a difference. Or they could stand pat and let the season play out.
No one’s mentioned it: But the Sox also included Engel Beltre – a 17 year old OF who they thought highly enough to give 600k just a few weeks ago. Chances are he’s nothing, but…
Props to the Sox for going overboard to make their team better. They won’t get two picks if Gagne leaves (and they’d have to offer arbitration) because of the two-year average on performance (an the list will come out after the year). But even one first rounder in return for Gabbard and Murphy is a decent deal outright. The three month rental for Gagne could be golden.
Woosta YF July 31, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Or Devine will be me to it…
Woosta YF July 31, 2007 at 5:29 pm
..it’s rare these days paul, but i agree with you ;) …i’m a bit puzzled by the yanks relative quiet given their past deadline splashes, but they may feel more confident than me about their wild card chances…i’m just surprised to be hearing that the young guys “the big [insert number here]” down on the farm are suddenly ready enough to be considered the answer to fill some of this year’s pitching holes, or the yankee brass have decided to not mortgage the future, even if it means [shudder] missing the playoffs this year…
dc July 31, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Except for the occasional blip, Sox pitching wasn’t the issue. It was their offense that needed tweaking–and Theo didn’t do a thing about that.
The main problem for the Yanks has been the bullpen. Now Proctor’s gone! Farnsworth is in disfavor. Edwar may be returning. Joba may be coming up. Not so bad.
J July 31, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Yeah and Giambi is coming back soon which means Melky gets the shaft.
This team is in major trouble, MAJOR and Cash did Zero to help that. I mean it’s not like 3 of our best players can walk after this season (Mo, Jorge and Alex) I mean why worry right, we have Wilson and Molina now we are set. This 2007 season is a disgusting mess.
John - YF (Trisk) July 31, 2007 at 5:36 pm
The Yanks have been playing .700 ball since the break. They’re thinking:
1) We get Giambi back this week.
2) Hughes becomes the 5th starter
3) Cmaberlain and Edwar.
#1 is obviously an upgrade over a DH of Damon or Duncan.
#2 is obviously an upgrade over Igawa.
#3 could be fine stoppers for the bullpen. Edwar is looking at a K/9 of about 17 this year. And Chamberlain is at a K/9 of about 14.
My problem is that they still need a RH bat because Torre isn’t giving those chances to Duncan. But I can’t imagine they couldn’t get Dye or Sanders (or even block the Sox from doing so). I think the problem is that they think they’ll have a glut once Giambi returns – and they will especially if they don’t do the sensible thing and DFA Cairo.
Woosta YF July 31, 2007 at 5:39 pm
I can’t even structure sensible statements I am so enfuriated at this point. How is getting Giambi back a positive? That means less Melky and more Johnny in CF! Captain NoMaas, I mean Woosta can you forecast next season for me? Who plays 3rd? RF? C? What do we do with an OLD Johnny Damon?
John - YF (Trisk) July 31, 2007 at 5:49 pm
Not sure how Gabbard/Murphy/Beltre is “going overboard” to get Gagne. Beltre is the prospect with the highest ceiling of the three, and he’s so raw — and so far from the bigs — it’s pretty easy to give him up.
Also, Theo himself said in the press conference (I beleive) that the Sox get a first-rounder and a sandwich pick for Gagne. Not sure why, but maybe it’s a three-year average, not two? Or maybe last two active seasons?
As for the bat, Edes says the ChiSox wanted two of Delcarmen/Hansen/Masterson. The Sox wanted to give only Hansen OR Delcarmen. Good move by the Sox with Bobby Kielty still hanging around. I predict a waiver trade or an outright pickup to at least make the OF/bench situation a little better.
With Schill looking dominant in rehab, it’s like the Sox are adding a front-line starter and a front-line reliever at the same deadline. Very impressive.
Paul SF July 31, 2007 at 5:52 pm
Overboard is trading three prospects for a reliever thst wasn’t really needed. They could have had Dotel for two (and half the money) and I’m not sure the difference will mean all that much.
Hard as it is to believe – Theo’s wrong. The list comes out after the season and is based on a two-year average. Since Gagne missed all of last year, it’s hard to see how he’ll be a Type A.
As for your prediction – seeing as the Yanks can block any deal – I don’t see how the Sox will be able to acquire anyone of importance.
Woosta YF July 31, 2007 at 5:59 pm
If what I have heard is correct, that Texas wanted Melky and Kennedy, or Melky and Ohlendorf; then I’m glad that Cash passed.
bloodyank78 July 31, 2007 at 6:10 pm
Woosta, the Sox finished behind the Yanks in the standings last year, so the Sox are first in the waiver order.
Meanwhile, I’m not sure how you can say a reliever of Gagne’s caliber is “not needed” when the Sox have Donnelly gone for the season and Timlin hurting. Even if those pitchers were healthy, acquiring a front-line reliever that essentially shortens any game to six innings — particularly in the postseason — for three second-tier prospects is not overboard by any stretch.
Do you really belive, Woosta, that the Red Sox would make a trade on inaccurate knowledge of what Gagne would gain them once he leaves for free agency? Epstein in the press conference said they would not have made the trade if they weren’t getting draft picks back.
Paul SF July 31, 2007 at 6:13 pm
BY, I’ve heard Texas wanted Melky OR Kennedy.
Gagne was a Type A this past offseason. Why wouldnt he be again this offseason?
TJ July 31, 2007 at 6:26 pm
it’s pretty shocking that the Yanks didn’t get Gagne given what the Sox gave up. I’m with Trisk here. The Yanks couldn’t do better than that? Seems odd.
Nick-YF July 31, 2007 at 6:57 pm
Was he TJ? I don’t see how – seeing as he pitched 15 innings in 2005-06, but I could certainly be wrong. The Dodgers got two draft picks from the Rangers?
I suppose there’s some residual from 2004, especially as they used to use a three-year average.
Even still, Theo can’t be certain of the picks right now – there’s no possible way. The list is determined after the season and the formula is top-secret.
As for overkill, how many innings do you really think they’ll need Gagne? And in high-leverage situations? The difference in results between him and Dotel would have been negligible (even as the price would have been much less). But if they’re losing close games because of their offense, another pitcher doesn’t make much of a difference, especially cause their starters have given them length.
As for the waiver list, I thought it takes into account this year’s standings?
Woosta YF July 31, 2007 at 6:57 pm
PeteAbe is reporting Melky or Kennedy (Gammons said AND earlier). I can’t see how that would have made sense for the Yanks given Chamberlain and Edwar.
Woosta YF July 31, 2007 at 7:03 pm
Yeah, I agree with that but then this seems a bit odd on the Rangers’ part. Wouldn’t Horne and Gardner have been a better combo than Murphy and Gabbard?
Nick-YF July 31, 2007 at 7:05 pm
I thought waiver order was based on standings, current, not last year. I think Woosta is right.
I have been on the road all day, but I fail to see how this move can be termed “overboard”, from the Sox’ standpoint. Timlin and Donnelly are hurt. Tavarez is, well, Tavarez. Snyder is a long man. Delcarmen is unproven in pressure spots. That leaves Papelbon, a health risk, and Okajima, a brilliant performer so far but an unknown quanitity in the late months. So while strong, the Sox’ bullpen is not airtight. This move goes a long way. And it cost them a fifth starter (sold high), a no-room-at-the-majors outfielder in AAA, and a 17-year old prospect of supposedly high-upside, but upside that could easily be three, four, five, or more years away (see Pena, Wily Mo). Basically nothing was compromised on their current roster, they added a stone-cold late inning killer. A fantastic move.
As for the Yankees, I fail to see how Cashman “loses” just because Theo got Gagne. We don’t know what the conversations were; perhaps Daniels told the Yankees “one of the four or no deal, we’re talking to the Sox”, and Cashman stuck to his guns. Good for him, if he had the gumption. The Yankees are loaded. They have a healthy rotation (and deeper when Hughes comes back). They have a rock-solid and all-star offense (however erratic). Their bullpen is suspect, to be honest, but if Chamberlain can pitch like 85% of Manny Delcarmen then they will be reasonably ok, considering how well Viz has done. And, they only have to make up 4 games and change to make the playoffs. Get there, and all bets are off, whatever the Sox just did.
It’s not zero-sum (Sox win trading deadline moves, Yankees lose!) to me. I love what the Sox did today, and I don’t think the Yankees lost very much ground, frankly. They are chasing the wild card first (so the Sox are irrelevant in that way), the division second.
SF July 31, 2007 at 7:08 pm
I understand that if Horne wasn’t untouchable, he was darn close, Nick.
Paul SF July 31, 2007 at 7:10 pm
Yeah, I’d think the Yanks could have matched with that package, but who’s the Beltre equivalent?
My guess is Texas liked Gabbard’s recent groundball rates given their home bandbox.
Woosta YF July 31, 2007 at 7:10 pm
Suzyn reports that Boston also threw 2.1 million Gagne’s way.
Woosta YF July 31, 2007 at 7:13 pm
Actually, biggest loser of the day? The Mets.
SF July 31, 2007 at 7:47 pm
sf, you are the voice of reason on this…i still believe the sox bested the yanks in this instance, but like you say, cash’s hands may have been tied with regard to gagne…neither of our teams is as “airtight” to use your word, or as leaky as some of the more emotional reactions would indicate…obviously i’d rather be in your shoes with an 8 game lead, but the yanks can still get into the playoffs…they’re good enough if they play that way the rest of the season…
dc July 31, 2007 at 8:48 pm
Nowhere does my post say anything about Cashman losing, SF, if that’s what you’re referring to. The most heavy Cash criticism on this thread was from Trisk, a YF. I thought I explained myself pretty well in my elaboration early in the thread. Maybe I’m just being touchy…
Paul SF August 1, 2007 at 1:35 am
SF is right. This is not about the Sox versus the Yanks.
Cash made the decision that the price for Gagne was too high for less than half a season, and I respect that.
The price will not be too high for the Sox if they win the World Series, and Gagne, Okajima and Papelbon all contribute to that. But if the Sox don’t win and Gagne pushes Okajims out of the way and then leaves, then that was a high price.
Of course another possibility is that Gagne stays and Paps goes back to the rotation next year.
duh August 1, 2007 at 8:09 am
unless they shower gagne with money, and the sox are on record as saying they have a payroll ceiling even for superstars, then i don’t see gagne staying with the sox…he’s made it clear that he wants to be a closer, and that ain’t happening with the sox, unless they think about making pap a starter again…
paul, you are touchy…your opening post, closed by the comment “Advantage: Theo”, implied that his counterpart was somehow “disadvantaged”…true, you didn’t use the word “loser” [semantics], and you did admit in your followup post that the yanks were in a tough spot with regard to moves they could make at a price they could live with, but the inference that this was some sort of contest with a winner and loser was loud and clear [i happen to agree]…i’m still unclear about what you meant in your closing couple of lines about whether the yanks made a move that was “right” for them…doesn’t look like there were many moves to be made frankly…i guess that’s why we’ve seen fewer big splashes every year since the wild card…while i have doubts about the proctor trade, i understand why they did it: potential replacement for arod, or at worst, a more talented utility guy, and to create roster room for experimenting with some of the young guys…
what is clear is that you believe the yanks were bested by the sox…at this point in time, i’d have to say yes, i agree with you, if only because the sox got the guy they wanted, regardless of whether cashman’s hands were tied or not…
dc August 1, 2007 at 8:52 am
The Yanks wanted Gagne, and the Sox got him. In that sense, Cashman was the loser. As I said above, he was in a tough spot, and he ultimately might have made the right decision, but I wonder how Yank fans will feel if the bullpen implodes come September and costs the Yanks a shot at the playoffs?
At any rate, this is a rivalry site, there’s a “vs.” in the title, and the natural inclination is to cast things in those terms, even when those terms might not be wholly appropriate to the situation. I wanted to rub it in a little bit, but I also felt the need to explain further that I didn’t think Cashman really did that bad a job. Which is why the comments aboust Cashman being called a “loser” surprised me, since that wasn’t said anywhere and any implication of that was already refuted — by me!
Paul SF August 1, 2007 at 9:03 am
I guess you can consider the Mets losers for 3 reasons:
1. They missed out on Gagne and Dotel.
2. They didn’t add that “Bat” they wanted in the OF.
3. The Braves got significantly better.
But I guess you could say the same exact things about the Yankees 1-3. Except they got Castillo and we got Wilson.
I also don’t understand how we could call Gagne overkill. Being Yankee fans you would think you would remember how dominant we were 96-00 with a similar bullpen. Not nearly the name value, but certainly results wise. Gabbard, Murphy and Beltre, please Theo schooled Daniels. The only one of the group that may ever help them in a big way is Beltre, but that’s 5 years from now. I understand there are different standards for the Yankees in trade negotiations, but you can’t tell me Kason Gabbard is equal to Ian Kennedy, that’s horse crap. Murphy is at BEST a 4th OF or a mediocre 3rd. Only think keeping me from really going overboard was Contreras and his awful performance last night.
John - YF (Trisk) August 1, 2007 at 9:04 am
I don’t know long-term how you want to judge it, since they are prospects, after all, but short-term, I hate the Gagne deal as a YF, and think it’s a great championship push.
It’s damn hard to get good starting pitching, so making a game a 6 inning game might be just good enough, especially since in the playoffs, you’ll have the 5th (and maybe 4th) starters in the pen.
Lar August 1, 2007 at 9:19 am
Yeah, Trisk, the only thing keeping me from going crazy with excitement was that the Sox lost last night… Funny how that works.
Paul SF August 1, 2007 at 9:45 am
“…The Yanks wanted Gagne, and the Sox got him. In that sense, Cashman was the loser….”
paul, i think we agree, even as we both admit we don’t know how it will ultimately play out…
either the texas gm is a terrible judge of talent, or the yanks aren’t as good as the sox at showcasing [hyping] their lower tier prospects…so far most commenters seem to think theo got the best of texas, while cashman was left wondering why he was being asked to give up more than the sox…is texas still pissed about having to pay arod not to play for the yanks?…
dc August 1, 2007 at 10:14 am
I’ve seen that line of questioning a lot. One argument I heard that makes sense to me without much knowledge of the tier farm ssytem is that the Yankees might not have any prospects that were below the Big Three but still attractive to the Rangers..
Paul SF August 1, 2007 at 11:03 am
Paul – I read somewhere (probably the paper version of NY Daily News) that Texas asked the Yanks for someone below the Big 3, but the Yanks didn’t want to give him up anyhow because he was close to Big 3, just with no hype. I’ll dig up the name, but ya, we’ll see in a few years, I suppose, but if it works out for them this year alone it might be worth it.
Lar August 1, 2007 at 11:40 am
Lar, I’m guessing it’s Alan Horne they were talking about.
Nick-YF August 1, 2007 at 11:51 am
Let’s take a look at some deals that almost happened yesterday.
Kyle Farnsworth for Bob Wickman. This would’ve been fun, reunions with former teams for both players. However, the Braves wanted the Yankees to pick up all of Farnsworth’s salary, apparently. Brian Cashman didn’t want to make him go away that badly, and Wickman would probably be a nonfactor back in the AL.
Mariners acquire Mark Loretta. Eh. Let’s not overstate the abilities of Loretta. It sounds like Tim Purpura wanted some kind of legitimate prospect for him.
Rockies send Jeff Baker and others to Tampa Bay for Dan Wheeler. We can’t really evaluate this one without knowing who else would’ve been involved. And the Rays don’t really have a place to play Baker; they’re already squeezed finding playing time for Jonny Gomes. If Rocco Baldelli ever gets healthy they’ll really have a pickle. I mentioned in a recent interview at D-Rays Bay – Wheeler would probably be one of the ten best relievers available if he was a free agent after the season. The Rays can pump up his value and get a promising young pitcher next year, as the Royals did with Octavio Dotel.
Brewers send Tony Gwynn Jr., Zach Jackson, and another minor league for Eric Gagne. This could’ve been the difference-maker that Scott Linebrink ain’t in a tight NL Central race. But it doesn’t seem like Doug Melvin got a chance to counter the Red Sox offer, so you can’t really fault him.
Red Sox send Wily Mo Pena and Craig Hansen to White Sox for Jermaine Dye. Well, there has to be some statistical way to evaluate whether this pair beats two draft picks. You’d have to know the attrition rates of first/second rounders, and get some scouts on Pena and Hansen to see if they can ever reach their potential. If I was the Kenny Williams I probably would’ve made the deal. I think Pena gets docked in value from where he was two years ago, but still has pretty much the same upside if you manage him right. Who knows, maybe Williams will go after Pena again this winter.
John - YF (Trisk) August 1, 2007 at 4:14 pm
ok, i’ll say it if nobody else will…why the f— would anyone take wilymo for anything, even if you include another player, like hansen with his 6+ era…as a gm i’d rather eat cat litter…the sox are stuck with him unless they give him away…
dc August 1, 2007 at 8:51 pm
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