Jayson Blair, Sports Editor

Standings_1

We opened our New York Times this morning to good news: the Sox swept the Yankees yesterday! Even though the games were relatively meaningless to the boys from Boston, we took pride in our team’s effort, in their fearlessness in halting Derek Jeter’s hitting streak on his home turf in the Bronx.  But most of all we are in shock.  That shock came from viewing the standings.  It turns out that in taking 3 from the Yankees, our team picked up 700+ games(!) on their hated rival.  The paper of record does not lie: check out the sports page today, shown above in a clickable thumbnail, in honest-to-goodness newsprint early this morning.  Who said there was no hope for our beloved team?!  A miracle, I say.  A miracle.

You can’t make this stuff up.

62 comments… add one
  • I was going to make a snarky post about how once again the Yankees welcomed the Red Sox into the Stadium with a chance to put them away for good and — once again — failed to do so, losing to the likes of Beckett, Snyder and Jarvis. All we needed was Dave Roberts stealing second — instead we had David Murphy giving a big “F you” to the Yankee mystique and aura, no trembler he.
    But I won’t. It wouldn’t be good form.

    Paul SF September 18, 2006, 2:15 pm
  • 810 wins and you’re still in 2nd place. Tough year.

    YF September 18, 2006, 2:30 pm
  • It always helps to go 729-4 against the Orioles.

    SF September 18, 2006, 2:34 pm
  • No wonder there’s been so many injuries — sextuple-headers every day? Sheesh.

    Paul SF September 18, 2006, 2:44 pm
  • Paul, Your restraint is admirable. I must admit though, I had the urge to point out that Torre, much to the chagrin of Yanks fans, managed like these were Spring training games. But then I said no, give Sox fans their due – bottom line, they took 2 of 3 at the Stadium.

    Andrews September 18, 2006, 3:29 pm
  • Sorry – 3 of 4.

    Andrews September 18, 2006, 3:34 pm
  • Yeah, I noticed that too. There’s clearly more differences than similarities between the 04 ALCS and a meaningless series between two teams going in opposite directions, but that’s what snark is for :-)

    Paul SF September 18, 2006, 4:16 pm
  • speaking of hobo blankets, if anyone took the time to wipe with the hartford courant this morning, they would have seen a-rod lobbying for damons name to be in the MVP vote. we’ve gone from jeter (aka: freddy sanchez) to johnny damon (aka: grady sizemore with less pop). please….just stop. if you don’t want papi to win the MVP, rally behind dye or morneau or even hafner instead of grabing at straws. i’m sure howard and papi would understand when sanchez and sizemore are your NL and AL MVP’s.

    sf rod September 18, 2006, 4:30 pm
  • Considering Papi himself lobbied for Dye and Morneau (he’s so selfish that way), I expect A-Rod will now be derided for being more interested in individual awards than in his team’s quest for the playoffs.

    Paul SF September 18, 2006, 4:36 pm
  • sf-rod, you’re on an island by yourself with your comparison of Jeter to Freddy Sanchez. Keep on campaigning. Someone’s bound to agree one of these days. And, Paul, let’s not get too crazy about how Ortiz was characterized in the press. The comments, which required clarification, were easily interpretable as self-serving. Even SF thought they were selfish.

    Nick-YF September 18, 2006, 4:46 pm
  • Cripes. Speaking of Sizemore, what kind of year is HE having. And he has an arm and can play his position well. I somewhat like that Jeter is being talked about as an MVP, because I disagree with the notion that the winner needs to be a power hitter. Jose Reyes and Grady Sizemore have been the absolute backbones of the Mets and Indians’ offenses, respectively. Without those two, those teams don’t function near as well (the Indians have found a way not to function despite…). So Jeter being talked about allows those kinds of players to be more viable parts of the conversation. I don’t think he deserves it, because he and Damon have kind of shared that responsibility this year as far as the Yankee offense is concerned. My question is, if the Indians were at all near contention, would the debate be simply between Sizemore and Hafner for the MVP?
    The comparison between Sanchez and Jeter is not favorable to Jeter. Hard to argue that point. Jeter is clearly the better baserunner. Other than that, Jeter has more HR “power” (13-6), Sanchez more doubles (48-36) Jeter has more walks but almost double the strikeouts as well. Jeter’s the better hitter overall, that much IS clear. And to a degree, it’s important to remember where the two play in respect to each other. (SS being a more demanding position than 3B).
    I like the comparison because I think even YFs looking at their numbers side-by-side would have a hard time in honest assessment saying that Jeter is the better player this year by far. But there’s Jeter’s intangibles (read: trumpeting by the press) and the fact that he’s a “great” shortstop (here’s to you, McCarver and Kay) to consider. I won’t ever argue that Sanchez is the better player. Impossible at this point. But the difference isn’t enough to where YFs should be comfortable.
    As I’ve noted before, Jeter getting the MVP would be more deserved than him winning another Gold Glove. But let’s all try to agree on this. If Joe Mauer had some kind of super-human knees and didn’t need a rest every 4-6 days, there would be no debate. With that said, Johan Santana for MVP!

    Quo September 18, 2006, 5:24 pm
  • so Quo has joined my island of just me and stats.

    sf rod September 18, 2006, 5:32 pm
  • To a degree, yes, Torre didn’t manage these like they mattered. But the smart idea would probably have been to give at least 2 of Villone, Proctor, and Farnsworth 3 of the 4 games off.

    Quo September 18, 2006, 5:50 pm
  • So if Tito didn’t manage like they mattered either, are we all even, and the Sox won the series fair and square? Or should us SFs still feel “indebted” to Joe for not caring?

    SF September 18, 2006, 6:15 pm
  • Oh, I don’t know if he managed as if it didn’t matter…throwing all those righty PHers at Myers smells like managing to win to me :) Otherwise, he would’ve left Nixon and Murphy in, like Joe did with Myers.

    yankeemonkey September 18, 2006, 6:36 pm
  • I think we may have seen alot more of Joe yestrday if he had known the game was worth 700+ wins.

    walein September 18, 2006, 6:39 pm
  • Francona just bumped himself up into all-time Red Sox winning Coaches. Sick winning percentage too.

    walein September 18, 2006, 6:40 pm
  • The simple fact that he didn’t get down on his knees and beg Theo to find him someone to start instead of Kevin Jarvis says that Francona was managing about as hard as Torre was anyway.
    That kind of speculation, in and of itself, is somewhat ridiculous and self-serving. Had Torre not been managing it to win, as I mentioned, Proctor, Villone, and Farnsworth would’ve only seen the light of day in 1 game each. Beam would’ve seen more action, for example. Saying that Torre wasn’t managing to win is an excuse. Hell. Joe Torre would tell you that.
    Tell me this, YFs. In the distinct possibility that Jeter goes 2 for 9 in the last two days of the season and Mauer goes 4 or 5 for 8, will you be arguing that Jeter gave Mauer the batting title? I guarantee you that Twins fans won’t be arguing the opposite if those numbers are reversed.

    Quo September 18, 2006, 6:44 pm
  • I like how Quo and sf-rod completely forget to mention that Jeter has 30 more steals that Sanchez, or that Jeter has almost an OBP (which stats people, who are definitely not on your side, sf-rod, view as the most important offensive component of OPS) over .35 higher than Freddy. There’s no comparison. None. Nada. Zilch. But continue pretending that Jeter’s MVP season is a function of NYC hype because that makes having to look at the numbers irrelevant.

    Nick-YF September 18, 2006, 6:46 pm
  • Well, if you’d stopped and read my comments, you’d realize that I mentioned Jeter being the far superior baserunner and that he’s walked a lot more times than Freddy.

    Quo September 18, 2006, 6:48 pm
  • and somehow that leads you to the conclusion:”The comparison between Sanchez and Jeter is not favorable to Jeter.” I don’t think you’re appreciating what it means to walk more or be a better baserunner. These two things make him a better player than Sanchez.

    Nick-YF September 18, 2006, 6:50 pm
  • I said in my comments that Jeter was the better player. Cut and paste what you want. My argument wasn’t to say that Jeter is worse or the same than Sanchez. I’ll paste another portion: “Jeter’s the better hitter overall, that much IS clear.” I don’t think we disagree as much as you think, Nick, nor do sf-rod and I agree as much on this as you think. My whole point was that comparing the two side-by-side somewhat makes Jeter’s stats lackluster, even though they’re better than Sanchez’s in a lot of ways.

    Quo September 18, 2006, 6:55 pm
  • ok, I think the basic idea is that sf-rod thinks that Jeter and Sanchez are basically equal players this year and that giving the MVP to Jeter would be equivalent to giving Sanchez the MVP. I think that’s a totally misguided viewpoint because I think Jeter is having a significantly better year than Mr. Sanchez, who in his own right, is having a very good year (just not Jeter-good). To me, Jeter and Santana are the top candidates for MVP in the AL (and if Hafner had not been injured he would have been in the running). In the NL, Ryan, Beltran, Cabrera and Pujols are my top candidates. Sanchez does not make the short list. The question I have for clarification is do you agree with sf-rod’s assertion that granting Jeter the MVP would be similar to granting Sanchez the award?

    Nick-YF September 18, 2006, 7:06 pm
  • ok nick, jeets can be baserunner of the year. how fortunate the captian is to have a people who can hit behind him. i’m sure pitchers thinking about a-rod and giambi has no effect on good jumps or reading a pitcher. go ahead and try to name another pirate. people also need to realize freddy would be playing 2nd or SS if randa had any production whatsoever this year. now if you want to compare defensive abilities, freddy can range to his left.

    sf rod September 18, 2006, 7:13 pm
  • How did this thread get hijacked into some sort of Jeter/Sanchez equivalency debate? Yikes.

    SF September 18, 2006, 7:20 pm
  • Oh, and Nick, if you don’t think that Jeter is gaining more headway into the MVP voting because of the NYC “hype”, you’re smoking something. And that has nothing to do with whether he deserves it or not: the NYC hype machine is real, whatever you might want to believe.

    SF September 18, 2006, 7:21 pm
  • Nick, no, I don’t agree on that particular point, for your clarification. I don’t think Jeter is the best candidate, but he’s a better AL candidate than Sanchez is an NL candidate.
    The point I’ve gotta disagree on is your exclusion of Mauer being a candidate for AL MVP. He’s become a very good defensive catcher (not yet Gold Glove-calibre, but we’ll see in a year or two), in addition to being probably the most professional hitter in the AL right now. I hate the term professional hitter. It’s so subjective and vague, but it feels right to describe Mauer as that.

    Quo September 18, 2006, 7:27 pm
  • insanity. The NYC hype machine regarding end-of-the-year awards is over-stated like the Boston curse was overhyped. It helps and hurts candidates. And this year, as much as it hurts a Nomar-partisan to admit it, Jeter is a top candidate. Bringing up the NYC hype machine is a red herring. It’s sour grapes, whatever you want to believe.
    and sf-rod, do you really believe that stolen bases don’t contribute to creating runs? He steals at an extremely high percentage. Juan Pierre has 56 steals in the Cubs line-up and suddenly you’re talking about how the Yanks line-up helps steals to the tune of 31 steals. OK.

    Nick-YF September 18, 2006, 7:28 pm
  • actually, Quo, I completely forgot about Mauer. My top candidates are Mauer, Jetes and Santana.

    Nick-YF September 18, 2006, 7:29 pm
  • No, it’s not “sour grapes”, Nick. I say this as a partial observer, but one who also thinks Jeter might (and possibly should) win the award. You assume I have sour grapes because Jeter might win the award, but I really couldn’t care less as long as he’s deserving (which I have already said he is, and even made a case for him over Ortiz at one point). So the hype is actually deserved, but it’s still hype, and there’s a lot of it coming out of this city. I don’t think that’s a crime to admit in any way (I’d hope that a player’s city and press would get behind their players when they are having as nice a year as Jeter is), but you seem to deny it’s existence. Don’t play the victim here, or try to make Jeter into one either.

    SF September 18, 2006, 7:41 pm
  • freddy can range to his left
    yeah, but he can only range to his left, since he plays third…

    SF September 18, 2006, 7:42 pm
  • Nice to see the Indonesian Parliament is in session. Or is it only a special committee meeting?

    yankeemonkey September 18, 2006, 7:45 pm
  • what’s the relevance of bringing up the hype? Seriously, I’m not denying that there’s hype. I’m denying that this hype as any bearing positive or negative on whether Jeter gets the MVP. And for the purposes of people who are relying on stats and seeing beyond the hype, it’s completely irrelevant. It was used by Quo, in an otherwise thoughtful response, as a reason to explain why yanks fans assume that Jeter is far better than Sanchez. In reality, Jeter has been significantly better than Sanchez despite what sf-rod claims.

    Nick-YF September 18, 2006, 7:54 pm
  • I think the hype is important, in that the voters are somewhat soft-brained BBWA types who have been known to leave guys like Pedro Martinez OFF THE BALLOT after historic seasons and who have given Gold Gloves to players who didn’t even play the field.

    SF September 18, 2006, 8:05 pm
  • Or do managers vote for Gold Gloves? Forget my last post.

    SF September 18, 2006, 8:06 pm
  • I should’ve been more clear on this point. I think what the hype machine is doing is making Jeter a more viable candidate to those outside NYC. Yankee fans probably don’t need to be told that their SS is headed to the Hall of Fame and that he is a good candidate for MVP this year. The media tells fans all over the country that Jeter is a great defensive SS, for example. Most fans who aren’t as involved as us accept it as gospel. Those same journalists aren’t busting their balls to talk about how Mauer has improved by leaps and bounds defensively this year, in order to better inform the rest of the world.
    Take the Jeter vs. Mauer concept. How much have those of us who have been outside of Minnesota this year (probably at LEAST 90% of us) heard about Mauer as opposed to what we’ve heard about Jeter (if you’re outside NYC) in the national media?
    It’s not an argument for or against his candidacy (the fact that he plays in NY where journalists seem as abundant as, well, something else that’s abundant in another place), but the truth is that he gets more national press than Mauer. That’s a fact. The power that those journalists might have in getting him voted as MVP is where the truthiness comes in…because the voters are all journalists. They’ve all got a responsibility to know as much about Mauer as they do about Jeter and Santana and Dye and Papi. So the degree to which the hype machine can help his candidacy should be little to none anyway.

    Quo September 18, 2006, 8:07 pm
  • this is going to boil down to a difference of opinion on the true effect of media hype and how Mauer has been treated as a candidate. To me, Mauer has been unfairly ignored because many mainstream media types have been talking up Morneau and Santana. In other words, he’s viewed (wrongly) as the third best player on his team. In reality (my reality and that’s reality!) he’s probably #2 on his team. But I think people really overstate the NYC effect. Pat Hentgen of Toronto beat out Pettitte a few years back for Cy Young, for instance .He had 13 wins. How did that happen?

    Nick-YF September 18, 2006, 8:13 pm
  • Or Colon over Rivera last year. That was criminal.

    yankeemonkey September 18, 2006, 8:14 pm
  • The Colon over Rivera thing was a “starter vs. reliever” thing, a common brainfart of the press voters. Rivera is also, by my estimation, criminally UNHYPED by the New York media, aided by his demeanor and his efficiency.
    Quo makes some very good points.

    SF September 18, 2006, 8:19 pm
  • Nick, if you’re talking about 1996, the year Hentgen won the award, he went 20-10 and had better peripherals than the 21-8 Pettite. He also threw 266 innings. Gotta agree with YM, Colon was certainly not the best pitcher in the AL last year. Either of the next two (Mo and Johan) would’ve been much better placed.

    Quo September 18, 2006, 8:20 pm
  • you know, Quo, you’re right about Hentgen. He was the better pitcher. I remember my youthful zeal for Pettitte, before I knew what peripherals were, and I remember thinking he wuz robbed! Turns out I was a moron. But the mainstream media wasn’t. Good for them. The ignored the fact that Pettitte pitched for a first place team and went with the better play. Maybe they’re capable of seeing through hype and silliness sometimes.

    Nick-YF September 18, 2006, 8:25 pm
  • I can see you thinking that, Nick. I remember those years as a 13 year old Sox fan hating Pettite while secretly wishing the Sox had him. And I think Pettite’s had/having clearly the better career. But Hentgen did have his well-deserved moment in the sun.

    Quo September 18, 2006, 8:28 pm
  • believe me, i don’t think sanchez should win the MVP. and niether does anyone else in america. i just wonder why jeter gets so much discussion in the MVP debate when freddy gets none. can you honestly say they are not having similar years? howard and papi are having similar years and howard will win MVP hands down this year with no talk of sanchez. what if the pirates had another player like the 8 jeter plays with? surely his runs scored would be higher, right? so why are jeters numbers so much better that the two should not be mentioned in the same breath? it just makes me sick that this might be another sandberg or dawson MVP year. until a position player can win the cy young award, pitchers have no place in an MVP debate. my guess is that the difference between freddy and derek has more to do with the teams they play for (or man crushes).

    sf rod September 18, 2006, 8:30 pm
  • So much good meat on this thread.

    attackgerbil September 18, 2006, 8:30 pm
  • his numbers are just that much better than Freddy. .35 difference in OBP and 31 more steals makes it so.

    Nick-YF September 18, 2006, 8:35 pm
  • Quo: Regarding exposure, Mauer did get a cover story on SI, but I agree with the premise of your argument.

    attackgerbil September 18, 2006, 9:35 pm
  • Actually, AG, I get SI, read the article, enjoyed it, and forgot that I had it. Brainfart on that on my part.

    Quo September 18, 2006, 10:13 pm
  • …hype doesn’t make any difference since the fans aren’t the ones voting….maybe i’m being naive, but i doubt the sportswriters are seduced by the hype created by another city’s sportswriters….has the sanchez debate come up because we’re searching for someone, anyone, other than jeter to support for the award?…frankly the jeter-bashing is getting tiring…if he were on the sox, he’d be the greatest shortstop of all time in their eyes, a la nomar, and renteria….it’s only after these guys leave [or in jeter’s case, never get to boston], that they are vilified…some fans…sniping, fair-weather and disloyal….

    dc September 18, 2006, 10:49 pm
  • dc. To a point I’ll agree with you. Some see with rose-colored glasses. But I imagine even most YFs would agree with me that sometimes people see through pinstripe-colored glasses as well. Disloyal? Sniping? Fair-weather? How many YFs are begging for an Aaron Small return? Eagerly awaiting a Tanyon Sturtze sighting? Remembering that the Pavano signing was to a degree seen as a coup for the Yankees? How about the ultimate example of fair-weather fandom, Alex Rodriguez. He’s brought it on himself to a degree, so it’s hard to blame YFs for all of it. He seems standoffish, and has made himself unpopular through opinion and action both on and off the baseball field. But booing loudly at all SOs and cheering loudly for a 2R HR? Fair-weather fans? There they are. To be fair, not all YFs do this, and the ones who are more educated about the game know that when the day is done, they’re better off with A-Rod in the lineup than 95-97% of the rest of the players in the Majors.
    When both sides are guilty of something, it’s terrible to bring up one as the focus of your argument. This is not to blame YFs or my fellow SFs. But dc, you yourself are guilty of choosing to see things one way and forgetting to see them the other as well. It’s called being open-minded.
    The Jeter bashing is possibly getting tiring. So too was the Papi bashing, the Pedro bashing, the Varitek bashing, the [insert Red Sox player name here] bashing. We SFs do the same from time to time, you’ll get no argument from me on that. But YFs are just as guilty. Take time to think out your argument next time dc.
    There’s going to be bashing. There’s no love between these teams and barely a shred between most of the fans. But assuming one does all the bashing and the other does none is ridiculous. Assuming one says good riddance to their player flops and the other only wishes them well is ignorant.
    I’m guilty of this as well. I didn’t try to say that there was no Boston media hype, but I probably should’ve mentioned it in the name of equanimity. There is. David Ortiz and Derek Jeter get more national press than any other players. There. I said it.
    How bout the flip side of the Jeter/Sanchez coin? Up to the ASB, were there YFs searching for someone, anyone, to be a real challenger to David Ortiz for the starting 1B slot? There were. And that’s fine. If YFs don’t want to see a Red Sox player start in the all-star game, that’s to be expected. If I would rather applaud Joe Mauer/Johan Santana/Marco Scutaro* for the MVP award than Jeter, as a SF, that’s probably to be expected too.

    Quo September 18, 2006, 11:07 pm
  • quo…now you’re dc-bashing, but you make a good point, and i probably deserve some of it….where you’re wrong is that not all yf’s thought ortiz didn’t deserve to be the mvp…of course he does [he’d get my vote if I had one]…if we are all to be open-minded, as you suggest, we need to consider all deserving players regardless of their team…there may even be an sf out there who would actually vote for jeter [if they had a vote]…
    what’s off about your aaron small, sturtze, and pavano examples is that they are not relevant to the point i was making…the yankee players you mentioned [except pavano] have not been vilified….we [me anyway] do want to see sturtze come back…he did a good job for us….small was an aberration that no one expected to be repeated [just like chacon], but we appreciate what he did, and I doubt he’d be booed if he returned to the stadium…. pavano is unknown at this point [we don’t know what to expect], but yf’s have every right to be frustrated with the lack of return….the nomar, damon, and even pedro situations are examples of players that were revered during their time in boston, and quickly trashed once they left…renteria was touted as a future hall of famer, then that soured and he was dumped, only to be successful again after leaving the sox…
    i agree with you that many yf’s have treated arod unfairly, that’s as much because he’s not jeter, as it is because he has had some struggles this year….fans are fickle on both sides, but don’t paint us all with the same brush….with all due respect, i never thought i’d be lectured by an sf about being open-minded, but the spirit of these discussions seems to be somewhat biased dialog about issues pertaining to our teams to stimulate some interesting conversation….maybe i’ve missed the point….

    dc September 18, 2006, 11:34 pm
  • Nomar and Pedro are bad examples for you to use. Pedro was well-received at Fenway. I think Nomar would be too. The troubles with Nomar started when he was visibly not doing his best for the team during 2004, even after he had medical clearance to play. He wanted out, and sulked. Maybe the FO brought that on themselves. Maybe Nomar brought it on himself alone. Damon said he would do something, and did another. That’s called lying. In the eyes of RSN, this was not a white lie, and doesn’t deserve forgiveness at this point. Similarly, take Bernie Williams for example. He wouldn’t, but say the Sox signed him as a switch-hitter off the bench to fill in the OF corners from time to time after he’d said he would never play for the Red Sox: publicly and in print. How would you feel? Betrayed? Would you feel like booing? Would you feel justified in doing so?
    YFs have every right to be frustrated by the return on Pavano? Yes, you do, of course. SFs had every right to be frustrated by a former GG SS making 30+ errors last year for $10M.
    I was quite careful to not make blanket statements about YFs or SFs. Some SFs would vote for Jeter. For me personally, he’s deserving but in all honesty would be 2nd to Santana. As an SF I would rather see someone else win. If he were the most deserving candidate, I would acknowledge that. I feel that he isn’t. Doesn’t change the fact that Jeter is a deserving candidate. Just as a number of YFs (not you, as you stated) wanted Giambi or Hafner or Morneau or Thome or Konerko as the starting 1B for the ASGame because they didn’t want a Sox player there. Doesn’t mean they didn’t respect David Ortiz as a hitter, just felt a real first baseman/Hafner was better/Giambi was their hometown guy/etc. I’m not as radical on any of this as you seem to think I am.
    Nothing wrong with bias. I don’t think I said anything to that effect. My point was that you were choosing to see Sox fans doing something that Yankees fans have done in the past and making a point of it. Argue Jeter’s credentials. Argue that Giambi hasn’t been on HGH the last year and a half. Arguing that one side is name-calling and nay-saying and the other isn’t is…remarkable. And in bad taste.

    Quo September 18, 2006, 11:51 pm
  • quo…i get where you’re going, but bernie is a classic case of the example i was trying to give you about the sox…he is loved in ny and i doubt most [the knowledgable ones anyway] yf’s would boo him if he returned to ny in another uniform, even a sox uni…it’s unlikely that his departure would be so acrimonious to cause that outrage…a better example might be if jeter left for the sox while still in his prime, and thumbed his nose at us on the way out…that would deserve a bad reaction from yf’s…i’m not saying that sox players have done that when they left, i’m just giving an example of an action that would deserve a negative fan reaction….
    i’m not surprised that you wouldn’t take jeter over anyone, but at least you have him 2nd…thanks for that…
    i wasn’t talking so much about pedro being booed, but the talk from the FO, and some sf’s that it was good riddance, because he was washed up [reminded me of clemens goodbye, who got booed lustily by the way, even as a bluejay]…
    you’re right that the sox started to sour on nomar before he left, but my point wasn’t so much the timing, but the fact that he went from hero to bum so quickly…maybe you’re right, his attitude starting making him dog it, but the inconsistency there is that when manny dogs it, i hear “it’s manny being manny”…sf’s didn’t cut nomar the same slack, and give him the benefit of the doubt that maybe he still was recovering from injury despite what the doctors said…he got upset partly because nobody believed him…
    you’re also being a bit unfair to damon…at the time he made the statement that he’d stay in boston and never play for the yankees, he had no reason to believe the sox wouldn’t deal in good faith with him…did they use his comments against him?…perhaps….bottom line is that the FO pulled their usual BS…he’s getting up there in years and might not effectively finish a longer term contract, and they perceived that there was a viable replacement [crisp, tori hunter], that they could bring in….you know the bummer is that they were only a few million and one year apart on the deal, but the FO stubbornly wouldn’t budge…take him off the yanks and put him back on the sox, and you have a different year….
    …i was starting to feel good about being able to agree in part with you on most of your points until i read the crack about Giambi….i don’t need to argue that Giambi hasn’t been on HGH for the past 1.5 yrs…where is your evidence that he HAS taken HGH for the past 1.5 yrs?…2 years ago, he all but admitted that he told the grand jury that he had taken enhancements in the past, then he took a year to clean himself up, but your implication that it is still going on is unfair, and is exactly what irritates me about [most] sf’s…let’s see how you like it: is HGH the reason for Ortiz sudden output over the past few years?…he was so awful with the twins, they dumped him…how about Kapler, why did he suddenly disappear to Japan, only to return this year, appearing to be a much smaller version of his former bulked up self?…how much does curt s know about steriods?…first he said he knew a bunch, then he acted dumb in front of the congressional committee….do you want me to continue?…i didn’t go down this road willingly, you started that drive.
    you sir, are the biggest hypocrite on this site…go back and read my previous post, and then read the last sentence of yours…nowhere did i say that the nonsense was one-sided…saying that my comments are in bad taste is just the kind of insult I was talking about….gotcha….just when i thought you weren’t a typical narrow-minded, hating, spiteful sox fan you disappoint me…

    dc September 19, 2006, 1:31 pm
  • wow. we’ve gone from a debate of light hitting middle infielders for MVP to giambis cheating ways. you don’t have to be a yankee hater or “spiteful sox fan” to realize giambi is a known cheater and liar. if you think he’s changed, that’s great. due to his track record, i would doubt that he has. if ortiz cheated in the past, i would understand your doubt of his accomplishments. would your doubts of kapler be soothed if he made up a cock and bull story about a japanese flu? my guess is you bought it when giambi said it. did you buy shefs story too? these are the kind of biasis that make us blind to our own team and the accomplishments of others.

    sf rod September 19, 2006, 3:32 pm
  • The difference, dc, is that it’s reasonably clear based on available evidence that Giambi has cheated and has lied about it in the past. Does that make him both those things now? Maybe. Maybe not. It’s a better argument, because as you have pointed out, there is some inequality on both our sides on that issue. Schill attempted to cooperate with Congress, and if you’ve kept up, is the only one consistently participating at present. Doesn’t make him innocent. Doesn’t make the others guilty automatically either, but it is to his credit. Kapler is a bad example. His best HR total in a season was 18. And honestly, Kapler has never been the huge bulked up guy like a Giambi or a Papi or a Thome. He’s always been kind of what he is. Ortiz wasn’t “so awful” for the Twins. Other than 2001, he was a steady productive hitter, if not with the HR totals he has now. He has steadily increased his output since his last year with the Twins. 20 in 412 ABs, 31 in 448 ABs, etc. His remarks about the philosophy of the Twins towards pulling the ball are spot-on too. Anyone who thinks the Twins style of ball involves pulling HRs left and right…has not been watching the Twins in..ever.
    Personally, I hate to say it, but more of the Red Sox suspicion should be on Trot Nixon than anyone else. Do I believe he took anything? I don’t want to. Is it a reasonable explanation given his power outage? It could be. One I don’t want to consider, but it’s there if you want a more reasonable target, even if no evidence has turned up from anywhere.
    The Nomar issue hurt SFs more personally than Manny’s antics. We knew what we were getting into with Manny from the start. Nomar was always a gamer until the training staff said he was ready to play in about June of 2004. Then suddenly, he wasn’t the all-out player with 100% effort anymore. The FO might be at fault here, I think I mentioned that. He had a right for his feelings to be hurt based on them thinking about trading him. Personally, I feel that’s something he should’ve taken up with the FO, and not hurt the fans with it. Maybe he was hurt. I don’t know. The smart money at the time pointed to him sulking. At this point, with what we know over the last two years…who knows.

    Quo September 19, 2006, 7:28 pm
  • sf rod and quo,…the difference guys is that giambi admitted it, so he didn’t lie…he’s guilty, of course, but why do you insist without evidence, that he is still “doing it”?….shilling, kapler, and others had the good sense to keep their mouths shut and/or change their stories, which IS lying….do you believe shilling may have lied, or does he get a pass because he changed his story?…in that context, giambi is more guilty of being stupidly honest than anything…shilling’s “cooperation” is hollow given his goofy testimony in front of congress after bragging before that about having a bunch of knowledge, and you know it…why do you think they asked him to testify in the first place?….
    as for ortiz, the twins cut him because he couldn’t cut it…give me a break, the twins love the long ball as much as anyone…they can’t afford it, and ortiz wasn’t giving it to them…
    you missed my obvious facitiousness in dragging all those other guys into this discussion, because the point i was trying to make is that you assume giambi is still a user, but you give the other liars a pass….shame on you…
    and in sheffield’s case, he admitted using a steroid as well…if you really think kapler was not bulked up a couple of years ago, you weren’t watching many sox games…pay attention yourself!

    dc September 19, 2006, 8:28 pm
  • i feel bad dignifying spacious arguments but here goes….
    giambi has yet to tell the truth, which in turn makes him still a liar. i get that he’s sorry, but is he sorry he got caught or sorry he cheated and then lied to us about it? if your wife or girlfriend came home crying and all she would tell you is “i’m sorry”, would you feel like she addmitted something?
    kapler started trimming down the bulk in texas due to excessive injuries. i was paying attention. and really….why kapler….take a name from the BALCO list at least.
    what schilling did was off the diamond. he didn’t infringe on the dignity of the game by trying to gain an unfair advantage. if curts testimony gained him 3 or 4 mph on his fastball, i’d totally agree with you.

    sf rod September 20, 2006, 2:30 pm
  • This conversation 1. Has taken place repeatedly on this site, and 2. Gains nobody anything. We don’t know, can’t know. I’d suggest dropping it.

    Paul SF September 20, 2006, 3:04 pm
  • …is balco the only supplier?….how naive…we don’t know for sure what giambi admitted to the grand jury because the testimony is sealed…he doesn’t owe you guys any explanation…popular speculation is that he admitted using steroids….so now he’s vilified for telling the truth, and it’s assumed he’s still lying, but everyone else gets the benefit of the doubt…what are the odds that the entire sox team is clean?…0%?…..Paul, you want to drop it because as usual, you are wrong…that’s your style…you move on to the next topic…keep in mind, you fired the first shot…sfrod…your logic is faulty…no one’s saying that curt gained any advantage, but he shot his mouth off about what he knew, then clammed up…now that’s lame…spacious? wow, get a new dictionary?

    dc September 20, 2006, 8:11 pm
  • spacious- vast in range or scope: a spacious view.
    i’ll use it in a sentence for you……
    “to arbitrarily choose gabe kapler as a steriod user without a shred of evidence employs spacious reasoning at best.”
    BALCO is not the only supplier, it just happens to be the one with a list that features 3 yankee players from 2005. these are confirmed names opposed to your “grabbing at straws” approach. you could have at least chose a player who’s power numbers dropped off dramaticly. for instance…bobby abreu.
    it’s ok for you not like curt. the funny part is that he is the only one who didn’t lie in front of congress (see; mcguire, palmero).

    sf rod September 21, 2006, 4:49 pm
  • …i think you mean “specious”…[“having a false look of truth or genuineness”]…tsk, tsk, now you’re being a hypocrite bringing abreu into the argument without proof…that’s EXACTLY the point i was trying to make originally….you assume giambi’s guilty and a liar without proof…not sure how you can say curt isn’t lying…go back to my posts…he was called as a witness given his past mouthiness about the subject, then he clammed up and pleaded ignorant…saying you know something, then saying you don’t know, uh, that’s not lying?….i gave you the facetious [“meant to be humorous or funny : not serious”] arguments about sox players to point out the silliness of your accusations…my point about balco is that you assume just because players are on a witness list they are guilty of something and must be lying….yes, there are other balco’s out there…they are the poster-child for this scandal only because they have a alleged client who is the most famous and despised sports figure…barry bonds…you should recuse [“to disqualify (oneself) as judge in a particular case”] yourself from jury duty if you’re ever called, given your propensity [“an often intense natural inclination or preference”] to assume someone’s guilty until proven innocent…that’s exactly what you’re accusing me of…hmmm…see my point?

    dc September 21, 2006, 6:41 pm
  • nope [“meaning no”].

    sf rod September 22, 2006, 4:29 pm
  • Hello everybody
    Very good stuff. They have been around a long time. – http://www.allsteroidsworld.com
    Sorry if there is already post for this, i did not see it.
    See you

    djhorserider August 5, 2007, 12:36 am

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