Kick Him Back to Texas: Sox-Yanks Gamer XIV

Pedro Martinez: The Yankees’ daddy. Discuss.

This is Josh Beckett’s time.

He’s on the mound in a game that is arguably the Red Sox’
best shot at easily securing the one win they need to effectively seal
a division title. His boyhood hero opposes him on the Yankee Stadium
mound. Want to seal your place in Red Sox lore? Here’s where you start,
kid.

Do what Pedro did in 1999, when he struck out 12 Yankees in
the ALCS while Clemens did what he always seemed to do in the
postseason — find a way to blow it. Pedro didn’t blow it. He
outpitched Clemens in Game 7 in 2003, he outpitched him in 1999, the
same postseason in which he came into a key game despite an injury (as
opposed to leaving a key game because of one).

Now it’s Josh Beckett’s turn. This isn’t 1986 Roger Clemens.
This isn’t even 1995 Roger Clemens. This isn’t even close to 1999 Roger
Clemens. This is the most expensive league-average pitcher in baseball
history, a starter who has allowed at least four earned runs in every
start against the Red Sox since May 2003. Never even mind the
three-inning disaster he produced with the season on the line for the
Yanks in Game 7. This Clemens is beatable, decidedly so.

Beckett, on the other hand, is in Clemens’ mold. Fiery.
Outspoken. Texan. Good. Very damn good. No pitcher in baseball has more
wins. No pitcher in baseball has a better combination of strikeouts-,
walks- and home runs-per-9. He was 4 years old when Clemens made his
Major League debut, and he’s the undisputed ace of a Red Sox team that
is rolling to a probable division title. It’s time to show why it was a
mistake for the aging, lumbering veteran to tempt this rivalry again.

Beckett v. Clemens. It’s on.

148 comments… add one

  • Like Donkey Kong.
    Sorry, that was bad…

    LocklandSF August 29, 2007, 3:58 pm
  • What ended up happening in that 2003 Game?
    I forget ;)

    Westboro - YF August 29, 2007, 4:05 pm
  • Westboro – I think the Yanks were awarded a round trip ticket to Southern Florida. Pretty sweet deal for late October. How’d the vaca go? ;)
    That said, I’m pretty amped up about tonight too. Say what we want about Clemens’ powers these days (and boy do we), this is a great match-up, just as an event/spectacle. It’s certainly more than enough excuse for me to drop a dime or two at my favorite NYC Sox bar tonight.

    FenSheaParkway August 29, 2007, 4:09 pm
  • Gah, and I had a previous engagement AND we recently switched DISH packages and don’t get ESPN anymore. This is gonna kill me…

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 4:11 pm
  • FenSheaParkway:
    How did you feel that Friday Morning?
    I felt great. Lets not talk about 2004 though ;)

    Westboro - YF August 29, 2007, 4:14 pm
  • Despite the fact that he’s a shell of his former self, this is the type of game Clemens lives for, I don’t think he’s going to suck, although I really hope he does.. Also, not to over blow it too much, this is basically the game the Yankees paid him for, it’s an expansive start.

    LocklandSF August 29, 2007, 4:15 pm
  • paul, i’m in a similar boat (no ESPN… or YES… or even NESN).
    i just received an email from a friend who says that he watches live games (for free) via this website:
    http://www.myp2p.eu/MLB.htm
    i guess you have to download the “sopcast” program on that page in order for it to work.
    no blackouts.
    if this works, i will be doing backflips that would make ozzie smith proud.
    i haven’t tried it yet, but godspeed, sir.

    Anonymous August 29, 2007, 4:15 pm
  • “It’s time to show why it was a mistake for the aging, lumbering veteran to tempt this rivalry again.”
    Gee whiz, Paul. A bit dramatic, perhaps?

    Anonymous August 29, 2007, 4:16 pm
  • EDIT: expensive

    LocklandSF August 29, 2007, 4:16 pm
  • me.

    Andrews August 29, 2007, 4:16 pm
  • Thanks, anon (YFiB?)…
    My wife was inducted into baseball with the 2003 Game 7. It was me and her, watching it in my college apartment. She sat back and watched (she’s always been a fan of the sport), and I was up and down, pacing the floor all game, fist pumping as the Sox jumped ahead, sitting down quiet when Giambi hit the homers, back up and cheering when the Sox came back…
    She said she’s never been so worried as when I sat there with my face in my hands for 10 minutes after the Yankees tied the game. I didn’t even react much when Boone hit the homer. I already knew the Sox would lose…

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 4:18 pm
  • Westboro -
    The next day was a Friday? Didn’t have that piece of info at my fingertips…
    Accurately speaking, I don’t think I *felt* anything that day. Someone who looked like me went to my office, sat at my desk and said very little with dead eyes. I don’t recall what I myself did.

    FenSheaParkway August 29, 2007, 4:19 pm
  • Lineups, courtesy YFiB, courtesy Pete Abe:
    YANKEES
    Damon LF
    Jeter SS
    Abreu RF
    Rodriguez 3B
    Matsui DH
    Posada C
    Giambi 1B
    Cano 2B
    Cabrera CF
    Clemens RHP (5-5, 4.34)
    RED SOX
    Lugo SS
    Pedroia 2B
    Ortiz DH
    Lowell 3B
    Youkilis 1B
    Drew RF
    Varitek C
    Crisp CF
    Hinske LF
    Beckett RHP (16-5, 3.21)

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 4:25 pm
  • don’t thank me yet, paul. let’s see if this thing works first.
    that is a hell of an initiation. (game 7, 2003)

    Yankee Fan In Boston August 29, 2007, 4:25 pm
  • As long as we’re talking about 2003, what were Beckett’s stats vs. the Yankees in the WS, again?
    I distinctly remember watching that Series and remarking that the Sox should try to swap Josh Beckett for John Burkett and hope nobody would notice.

    Jackie (SF) August 29, 2007, 4:27 pm
  • Josh Beckett owns Bobby Abreu: .163/.410/.349 in 61 PAs.
    That BA/OBP split is impressive. 7-for-43 with 18 walks. Sheesh.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 4:29 pm
  • That was an odd couple days in general in Boston. Everyone was walking around like a nuke had a gone off the day before and there was no more hope for civilization. I didn’t get out of bed for two days. Half because of the heartbreak, half because of the half gallon of Jack Daniels I drank.

    LocklandSF August 29, 2007, 4:29 pm
  • i was relieved when boone hit that homer.
    97% because i knew that would be the end of the “cowboy up” phenomenon.

    Yankee Fan In Boston August 29, 2007, 4:31 pm
  • I went golfing.

    Westboro - YF August 29, 2007, 4:33 pm
  • Agreed – that was one of the more miserable weeks of my life. The apartment we were in at the time probably still has a dent and black mark in the wall (where my Derek Jeter voodoo doll hit after I hurled it across the room when the Yanks tied it up). I actually sobbed myself to sleep after Game 3 of the 2004 ALCS, but I was way more upset in 2003… just too numb and angry to cry.

    Jackie (SF) August 29, 2007, 4:33 pm
  • I feel better knowing that the Yankees have to hang that game on Jason Giambi, in all his glory. The fact that he hit those two bombs off Pedro, while on whatever, seems to get swept under the rug when anyone brings up that series. No cheating Giambi is equal to no win, in my mind anyhow.

    Brad August 29, 2007, 4:34 pm
  • Hi, I’ve been lurking for quite some time now. Game 7 in 2003 was also the game that got me hooked for good into baseball, to the point where it became an obssession nowadays.
    The next morning was incredible, I bought all the tabloids and I still keep them, brought them back with me when I moved back to Brazil. They are in a drawer that I seldomly use, but every time I open it, it gives me a good memory and a smile.

    fabio(yf) August 29, 2007, 4:34 pm
  • welcome, fabio.

    Yankee Fan In Boston August 29, 2007, 4:35 pm
  • After the Sox won in 2004 I walked around in Boston feeling like I was getting a preview of Hell.
    I haven’t been back to the Minneapolis Airport Since ;)

    Westboro - YF August 29, 2007, 4:35 pm
  • (and before anyone thinks I’m completely insane, the voodoo doll was a gift from a friend who had gone to New Orleans recently. I couldn’t think of a better person to stick it to at the time, but in retrospect I should have gone for Grady.)

    Jackie (SF) August 29, 2007, 4:37 pm
  • Thank you YFIB

    fabio(yf) August 29, 2007, 4:37 pm
  • saying that clemens always blew it during the post-season is just plain wrong. there are more than a few games that Clemens was fantastic in the post season. For example 2000 ALCS vs. the M’s

    Sam-YF August 29, 2007, 4:39 pm
  • clemens was alright in that world series game against the mets, too. 8 innings of shut out ball if i recall correctly.

    Yankee Fan In Boston August 29, 2007, 4:43 pm
  • This is the email I sent to friends the morning after we won the 2004 ALCS, keep in mind that I went to every home game of the post-season…
    “I haven’t really slept in over a week. I can’t speak. I’m flat broke. I don’t look like I’m hung over, I actually look dead. My car has been abandoned in Chinatown for 4 days broke down. I lost my watch. I have no idea where my phone is. There is a good chance I’m going to lose my job, my boss and co-workers are not sports fans, let alone Red Sox fans, and they don’t get it.
    I was scared out of my mind when they put Pedro in, I thought for sure that would give the Yankees all the false bravado they needed to mount a comeback. I was genuinely still afraid in the 9th with 2 outs left to win the whole thing; the Red Sox fan in me wouldn’t let me celebrate even a second early.
    But the Red Sox beat the Yankees in the greatest comeback in sports history, and frankly, that’s all that matters to me anymore.
    God bless the Red Sox.
    Jesus, I need a break.”

    LocklandSF August 29, 2007, 4:44 pm
  • Career (including postseason) against the Yankees, Beckett is 4-3 with a 5.66 ERA. 26 walks, 45 strikeouts in 49.1 innings.
    Career since 2002 (including postseason) against the Sox, Clemens is 4-3 with a 7.09 ERA. 14 walks, 44 strikeouts in 47 innings.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 4:45 pm
  • Some of Beckett’s numbers in his 2 starts vs NYY this year:
    IP ERA H R ER HR BB IBB SO
    13 5.54 17 9 8 0 5 0 12
    BA OBP SLG OPS BAbip
    .309 .367 .400 .767 .395
    For both starts, he earned a game score of 43, among his worst this year. Only his 6/14 start vs COL (23 gs) and 6/30 start vs TEX (31) were lower.
    Go Yanks

    Andrews August 29, 2007, 4:46 pm
  • Wow, Lockland, that’s hardcore (and quite impressive)

    Andrews August 29, 2007, 4:48 pm
  • I put, “Clemens always seemed to do in the postseason,” meaning with the Red Sox.
    In reality, his postseason numbers with the Sox are decent, but he always seemed to come up short when it really mattered — Game 7 of the ’86 WS, getting ejected in ’88 (or was it ’90? Those run together for me). In nine appearances with the Sox in the postseason, Clemens had a 1-2 record.
    Clemens is ending his career like he began it. He hasn’t had an undisputably great series in the postseason since the 2003 ALDS, and he’s been to seven series since then.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 4:50 pm
  • yeah, lockland. that is an email i wish i had written (swapping sox for yankees and pedro for pavano of course).

    Yankee Fan In Boston August 29, 2007, 4:53 pm
  • That’s my fear, Andrews. That Beckett doesn’t have it tonight. In fact, it’s been impressive how no Sox starter this year, even in their wins, has a quality start. I haven’t checked this, but I can’t think of a truly lights-out outing by any Sox starter against that offense.
    Here’s hoping. They’re due.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 4:54 pm
  • I think that everyone likes to throw stats out there when it comes to who does and does not do well, when in reality, there are very, very few pitchers (established aces, not rookies) that make it through either lineup without some lumps.
    Really, I can’t think of one. The Red Sox batted around Halliday and Peavy this year, while they were shut down by a few unknows. The same is clearly true for NY.
    We’ve seen in the past, comparing anything these two teams do against each other skews the reality of any one situation. Stranges things happen, like the above cited stats, when these two come together, which is why I try not to ever judge the games based on pitching matchups. Or anything for that matter.
    Those numbers make Beckett and Roger look like the two worst pitchers we could muster up for comparison, when in reality, one is on the path to a Cy Young trophy, and the other might as have the trophy named after him.

    Brad August 29, 2007, 4:55 pm
  • Correction. Julian Tavarez had a game score of 53 in a 7-3 win May 22.
    Daisuke came close with a 49 on April 27.
    That’s it.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 4:58 pm
  • And I should add, by traditional standards, even tavarez fell an out short of a quality start by giving up 3 ER in 5.2 innings.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 4:59 pm
  • That’s a good point Brad, you can see it in their eyes, on both sides, there is something extremely different about these games compared to every other game of the season. I don’t know what it is, but it rarely, if ever, follows normal baseball logic.

    LocklandSF August 29, 2007, 4:59 pm
  • Good point, Brad. As I look back, I see Andy Pettitte is the only Yankee pitcher with a quality start against the Sox this season — though he has two.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 5:01 pm
  • You know what time it is?
    http://influks.com/post1582.html
    Sorry, doing everything I can to avoid doing work.

    LocklandSF August 29, 2007, 5:03 pm
  • That’s why it always annoys me when people say “well look at how well he’s done in New York”, or conversely, Boston.
    Hardly any pitcher, ever, has been able to get through four or five games a year, on either staff, without getting pounded a few times.
    The lineups are too good, and the players are definitely different players when it comes to these games, which is why, when I’m looking at someone’s year, I can’t even begin to take seriously what these two teams have done against each other. It creates outliers in what is normally a pretty linear string of performances on both sides.

    Brad August 29, 2007, 5:06 pm
  • Holy Baby Jesus, Lockland.

    Brad August 29, 2007, 5:07 pm
  • Except Pedro — who, no matter what he or various Yankee fans thought by the time 2003 and 2004 rolled around, dominated the Yanks during his prime like no other pitcher before or since.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 5:08 pm
  • I had the PERFECT solution to post ’04 ALCS and it was pure dumb luck:
    I had an international trip for work leaving at 7am the next day. I left Yankee stadium, showered, changed, packed, slept for about 2 hours, and went to the airport. I never read a paper about it, never saw tv or radio reports of it, etc. (I was in Burundi for 3 days and the Middle East for 4 – not big places for MLB news).
    I came home as unscarred as humanly possible for me – other than the deep scar of having witnessed the carnage firsthand.

    IronHorse (yf) August 29, 2007, 5:10 pm
  • IronHorse, you cheater.

    LocklandSF August 29, 2007, 5:12 pm
  • Lockland my son loves that show, it’s new. It’s called Yo Gabba Gabba…I feel like a wuss for knowing that!

    John - YF (Trisk) August 29, 2007, 5:14 pm
  • Yes, Paul that may be true.
    But now we are his Daddy………..

    Westboro - YF August 29, 2007, 5:19 pm
  • Anyone know Manny’s career stats against Clemens? Is it just me or does it seem that Manny mysteriously ‘checks out’ every year at about this same time, just when his team needs him the most? Ortiz is playing with half a shoulder for crying out loud.

    MAG August 29, 2007, 5:20 pm
  • Pedro
    vs. NYY: 11 W 10 L 3.03 ERA 211 IP 71 GS
    2003: 1 W 1 L 3.80 ERA 23.2 IP 4 GS
    2004: 1 W 2 L 5.47 ERA 26.1 IP 4 GS
    Career: 206 W 92 L 2.81 ERA
    Doesn’t look like “dominance” to me!
    Who’s YOUR daddy?

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 5:23 pm
  • Post-season careers:
    Clemens: 14-9 3.66 ERA 33 GS
    Pedro: 5-3 3.40 ERA 11 GS

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 5:28 pm
  • Thanks, Woosta, for saying exactly the same thing I did, but with a lot more off-putting arrogance and antagonism. Way to go.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 5:28 pm
  • It’s his specialty.

    Brad August 29, 2007, 5:30 pm
  • Not a bad theory for Manny:
    Against Clemens in his career:
    60 PA 9 H 1 2B 3 HR 6 RBI .180 .317 .380 .697 OPS

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 5:32 pm
  • MAG – he’s missing a game with back spasms late in the year, while his team is up seven games in the division. Where exactly is all the need? Play him tonight if he’s hurting for what? To go up eight games, or lose another to six? Doesn’t make sense to me. Let him sit, maybe pinch hit late if available.

    Brad August 29, 2007, 5:32 pm
  • OK – off to the bleachers. Will peak at the blog from my blackberry after Damon’s 3rd RBI, A-Rod’s 2nd dinger, or Clemens 14h consecutive out. Otherwise will likely steer clear till tomorrow.
    Here’s to Roger fist-pumping his way through 7 solid and getting a curtain call when it’s all done…

    IronHorse (yf) August 29, 2007, 5:33 pm
  • Ouch! Nice stat grab, BTW.

    MAG August 29, 2007, 5:33 pm
  • That’s the craziest theory I’ve ever heard, guys. I have to wonder if Manny even knows who’s pitching for the Yankees from day to day in this series.

    Brad August 29, 2007, 5:33 pm
  • I said: dominated the Yanks during his prime
    Pedro during his prime vs. NYY:
    1999
    1.69 ERA, 4 BB, 28 K, 16 IP
    2000
    2.10 ERA, 6 BB, 34 K, 30 IP
    2001
    2.37 ERA, 9 BB, 53 K, 38 IP

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 5:34 pm
  • It’s just you MAG, the man’s human, he gets hurt from time to time. He’s played 140 or more games a season for 8 seasons in his career, that’s a lot more than can be said for a lot of players.

    LocklandSF August 29, 2007, 5:35 pm
  • I’m super impressed with the state of this thread 1.5 hours before the first pitch.
    In that spirit, I was out on a job-related errand and while passing through Herald Square, I spotted a Sox/Yanks couple, hand in hand, walking down the sidewalk. It was like our happy modeling friends, come to life! Well, I doubt this pair would be getting any callbacks from J. Crew, but close enough. It still made my day.

    FenSheaParkway August 29, 2007, 5:35 pm
  • I cringe at the thought of spending time with a woman, who I love, as a Yankee fan. No. I couldn’t do it. No way. She would have to be a mute bikini model, recently graduated from a prestigious culinary institute, and a slight fondness of the other bikini models that swing by the house from time to time.
    Even then, maybe.

    Brad August 29, 2007, 5:38 pm
  • Brad–I hear you on the 7 game cushion thing, but as for back spasms, he’s also been “playing through” them for a week or so. Again, I point to Ortiz’s shoulder and Ramirez’s regularly scheduled personal collapse at the end of August. His career stats against Clemens don’t make him a factor, but, step up man! This is Yankees/red Sox regardless of the cushion.

    MAG August 29, 2007, 5:38 pm
  • MAG:
    Manny Ramirez Sox games by year:
    2001: 142
    2002: 120 (injury)
    2003: 154
    2004: 152
    2005: 152
    2006: 130 (injury)
    2007: 127 (and counting)
    Several times he had the most games in a given year of anyone on the team…

    Devine August 29, 2007, 5:40 pm
  • yeah, I hear you, man. But, really with those kind of stats against the guy, Francona probably sees it as a better option to just sit him.
    Also, I wonder if there is any other pitcher Manny has that many PA against that he hasn’t dominated. It seems that every veteran pitcher has a terrible history against Manny, so it’s weird that someone like Roger (who never really fooled anyone with breaking stuff) could get the best of Manny, who has been able to turn on anyone his whole career. Baffles me.

    Brad August 29, 2007, 5:41 pm
  • I’m with you 100% on that Brad. But it’s nice to see other people who are able to do what I cannot.

    FenSheaParkway August 29, 2007, 5:41 pm
  • What did league-average pitchers do against the Yankees during his prime and what was Pedro’s differential from league average? How well did this track his own differential from league average for his overall stats? This will tell us more about the context of Pedro’s stats against the Yankees.
    Serious question.

    SF August 29, 2007, 5:42 pm
  • So MAG, your position is you think the Red Sox should risk further injury to one of the their best players, this close to the post-season, in game against a team that may be out of it already?
    Also, you don’t know that it was his choice either.

    LocklandSF August 29, 2007, 5:43 pm
  • I wasn’t trying to suggest Manny suffered from Rocketphobia. Just curious if that’s why Francona felt it was OK to sit Manny during the battle for AL East supremacy. It just seems to me that Manny gets day’s off more than most ballerina’s, er baseball players. And at the worst possible time. We both know that Boston could be up or down 20 games and the only thing that matters is beating NY.

    MAG August 29, 2007, 5:43 pm
  • No, he doesn’t. See my post above. He’s had 5 days completely off this year by the by (132 games, 127 Manny has been in).

    Devine August 29, 2007, 5:45 pm
  • It just seems to me that Manny gets day’s off more than most ballerina’s, er baseball players. And at the worst possible time
    This is just not true. Mythology has great power.

    SF August 29, 2007, 5:45 pm
  • Oh, typical silly Paul – leave out the numbers that matter:
    1998: 1-2 4.50 ERA 4 GS
    1999: 2-0 1.69 ERA 2 GS
    2000: 1-2 2.10 ERA 4 GS
    2001: 1-2 2.37 ERA 4 GS
    2002: 2-1 3.46 ERA 4 GS
    2003: 1-1 3.80 ERA 4 GS
    2004: 1-2 5.47 ERA 4 GS
    So two winning seasons against four losing seasons. THAT sure looks like he “dominated”. But I suppose we shouldn’t look at wins and losses now?
    Meanwhile, the one outstanding season (1999) is the same year he had an overall 2.07 ERA on the year. The following years even as he continued to “dominate” everyone else (under 2.39 ERA), he struggled to win against the Yankees.

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 5:45 pm
  • That’s not at all what you said, this is what you said.
    “Is it just me or does it seem that Manny mysteriously ‘checks out’ every year at about this same time, just when his team needs him the most?”
    You attacked his dedication to the team, directly, don’t back peddle now.

    LocklandSF August 29, 2007, 5:46 pm
  • MAG – Matters to whom? The Globe and Herald writers? I think the Sox are trying to be more level-headed than that.

    FenSheaParkway August 29, 2007, 5:46 pm
  • Sheesh, it’s like no one watched the game last night. My back hurt just watching Ramirez run to first on that base hit.
    Manny is one of those hitters where, if he’s healthy, he’s playing, no matter the past numbers. Besides, Manny’s numbers are mostly reflective of the 2-for-29 he put up against Clemens from 1997-2001. This ain’t that Clemens.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 5:46 pm
  • Goddamn, you sure are combative, ain’t you, Woosta? It’s called run support. Keep moving the goalposts.

    Devine August 29, 2007, 5:47 pm
  • 20 games and the only thing that matters is beating NY.
    Not for me. Again, these games are stupid, and normally don’t indicate anything even remotely related to each team’s overall capabilities.. If you look at the last five years, the series is damn near 1:1, with the exception of last year, where I think the Yanks went 11-8 against Boston.
    One team could win the series, and then tank, or one team could lose the series (like in 04, I think) and win it all.
    These games are an indication of nothing even remotely concerned with “supremacy” or “dominance”. The other 150 or so games tell that story.

    Brad August 29, 2007, 5:47 pm
  • But I suppose we shouldn’t look at wins and losses now?
    Now that I know you consider wins and losses to be more important than ERA, strikeouts, walks, etc., I more fully understand your opinions on other topics.
    Thanks.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 5:48 pm
  • But I suppose we shouldn’t look at wins and losses now?
    NO! That’s the single stupidest stat ever when guaging a pitcher, and if you need proof of that, there are volumes of it out there for you to scroll through.
    If you’re trying to say that Pedro didn’t dominate the Yankees like nobody else did, you clearly didn’t watch the games. I can’t even begin to remember how many times Pedro left winning, and didn’t get the win.

    Brad August 29, 2007, 5:50 pm
  • Dominant pitchers win ballgames. Against the Yankees, Pedro didn’t. Indeed, even as we was killing everyone else, he was struggling (for him) against the AL club from New York.
    Meanwhile, for as much as Clemens has found “a way to blow it” in the post-season, he’s been Pedro’s equal in winning games those games.

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 5:50 pm
  • Your “dominant” Pedro didn’t beat the Yankees. I don’t care how you spin it.
    Who’s YOUR daddy?

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 5:51 pm
  • Unreal.

    LocklandSF August 29, 2007, 5:52 pm
  • Dominant pitchers win ballgames.
    I didn’t know Joe Morgan posted here.
    Dominant pitchers shut down the opposition. Those numbers show a Yankee team that scored rarely against Martinez. Unless you mean truly dominant pitchers win ballgames by posting ERAs in the low 2s AND going 4-for-5 with 2 HR, you cannot fault Martinez for his team’s shortcomings (and they were many in those years)

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 5:52 pm
  • yep, manny “appears” in a lot of games…but, i think the question was how many does he actually “play” in?…

    dc August 29, 2007, 5:53 pm
  • 1999: 2-0 1.69 ERA 2 GS
    2000: 1-2 2.10 ERA 4 GS
    2001: 1-2 2.37 ERA 4 GS

    These are ridiculous, DOMINANT numbers, when the Sox were ok (92, 85, 82 wins in those three seasons) and the Yankees very strong (three division titles and two WS appearances). I imagine Pedro strongly outperformed league average in both 2002 and 2003, and in ’03 and ’04 it’s fair to say he was past his prime.
    For someone who loves stats, Woosta, as you claim, you sure don’t know how to read them or comprehend context. You obviously look at numbers and that tells you everything. Sadly for you, baseball is about a hell of a lot more than that. I am not even sure you actually watch games based on the tones of your posts at this site over the last couple of months – you almost never relate events or your memories of actual games, but rather spit out compiled numbers, then make know-it-all judgments about what you supposedly “saw” and how wrong everyone else is, despite corroborative evidence, both statistical and observational.

    Anonymous August 29, 2007, 5:53 pm
  • Jesus, I’m not going to get into how stupid that sounds.
    I’m out.
    Later, guys.

    Brad August 29, 2007, 5:53 pm
  • Really, Brad?
    Explain the 10 losses in 26 games started. That’s not “dominant” no matter how you cut it. Even if he won every other game (and he didn’t) that puts him at 16-10 on his career in bloody sox.
    “Dominant”, huh?

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 5:54 pm
  • DC, have you seen his career numbers? You can’t be serious, man.
    Okay, really.
    Bye.

    Brad August 29, 2007, 5:54 pm
  • Wow we have already entered the Octagon and the 1st pitch hasn’t been thrown.

    rob August 29, 2007, 5:54 pm
  • Brad,
    The little man was absolutely destroying everyone else. Put those stats in that context, and he was struggling mightily against the Yankees, save for 1999.

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 5:55 pm
  • Also, on a game-by-game basis, Pedro Martinez has three of the 20 best-pitched games against the Yankees since 1990, more than any other pitcher in that time, including No. 1 — the 17-K one-hitter in 1999.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 5:56 pm
  • yep, manny “appears” in a lot of games…but, i think the question was how many does he actually “play” in?…
    Funny, dc, but seriously this is a red herring. Manny is a world-class hitter, and you just don’t get to be that without practice, hard work, and focus. His fielding, well…
    A few of Manny’s famous moments have convinced many people that he’s eccentric to the point of lazy. This is just not true. He’s eccentric, damn sure, and it’s cost him PR-wise on a few occasions when he did pout and sit down. And that has riled me for sure (I once called Manny a “disgrace” at this site, in one of my more level-headed moments ;-)) But for 99% of his Sox career, if not more, he’s shown up and busted his ass.

    SF August 29, 2007, 5:57 pm
  • Dominant pitchers win ballgames. Dominant pitchers chew tablets full of throat-burning acid just for the fun of it. Dominant pitchers inhale cigarrette smoke and exhale sweet and pure O2. Dominant pitchers destroy Jack Bauer, even if they are terrorists. Dominant pitchers could help us achieve world peace, but like watching all of us suffer.
    I suppose we shouldn’t look at wins and losses now? I suppose we shouldn’t use our brains? I suppose we should use poor stats to support an already-poor argument? I suppose we should trust the CHB and the various NY and BOS tabloid writers more than our own minds (if we have them)? I suppose swallowing bleach is a good idea?
    “Who’s your daddy?” And is he willing to claim you?

    QuoSF August 29, 2007, 5:57 pm
  • By the way, Brad, I was at the game that led Pedro to suggest that the Yankees are his daddy.

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 5:57 pm
  • That anon comment above addressed to Woosta was me, by the way. Typepad glitch, not intentionally anon.

    SF August 29, 2007, 5:57 pm
  • DC was clearly joking.
    The anon poster also brigns up a good point, which i’ve made before here in similar discussions and forgotten. The Yankees were a much better team than the Sox in those days, yet Pedro destroyed the Yankees when he was in the game. If the offense and bullpen don’t cooperate, that has nothing to do with Pedro’s dominance.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 5:58 pm
  • Woosta, I really am starting to believe that you have multiple fucking personalities. One day, you and I can have a normal conversation, and the next, it’s like I’m talking to the all-time great flame thrower and fire starter. What gives, man? Do you enjoy going about things the way you do? I mean, I thought you’ve said some stupid things, but using wins and losses as to how a pitcher does, when most times it’s not in his control, takes the cake.
    YOu show these flashes of knowing baseball, and the ability to have a normal argument about it, but then something like this, which I’m sure you do just to start fires, and I don’t understand why. You seem like a nice enough guy, so I don’t get why you like to get things sparked up by being stupid.
    I don’t know. I think I’m going to avoid conversing with you about baseball, because while you’re normally and sometimes intelligent about things, when you feel like being a jerk, you certainly are. So, sorry, Bro. Count me in as the ever growing group of guys that are tired of your shit. It’s just fucking stupid, and you don’t have to act like that.
    Sorry, man.

    Brad August 29, 2007, 5:59 pm
  • You know Paul is *really* digging when he starts looking at, and citing, specific games.
    Relative to his entire career, Pedro had one good year (1999) against the Yankees and even then only won 2 of 4 games. That’s hardly “dominant” in my book.

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 5:59 pm
  • Oh, I’m not back peddling about my questioning of Manny’s committment to the Red Sox. How can I? Look at his track record. I was just pointing out that I don’t think he’s afraid of Clemens. For Christ’s sake, do we even need to WONDER about his committment to the Red Sox? Look at the last, how many years, he’s flip-flopped about whether he wanted to play in Boston! At one point he was pretty damned sold on playing in pin stripes! This is the first year in a long time that he hasn’t whined about being traded. And last year? Yes, Manny was number one on my list of pussies and yes, it still stings that Boston was 1 and one half games behind NY before pressing the meltdown switch and perhaps I wrongfully attribute last year’s decline to Manny’s committment, but when it comes to Yankees/Red Sox I want my team’s best players on the line up card IF THEY’RE ABLE. If he’s hurt, fine. If it’s August flippancy, then, bullshit.

    MAG August 29, 2007, 5:59 pm
  • sf, brad, come on, you guys know i was just kidding about manny…trying to lighten things up…man, everybody is gettin’ all excited, and the game hasn’t even started yet…i happen to like manny, even with his quirks…not sure i could handle him as a yank, but we’ve had stranger characters i suppose…

    dc August 29, 2007, 6:00 pm
  • Bye, Woosta. You were worth talking to for about two days. Not anymore.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 6:01 pm
  • “You know Paul is *really* digging when he starts looking at, and citing, specific games.”
    “By the way, Brad, I was at the game that led Pedro to suggest that the Yankees are his daddy.”
    These two comments were made by the same individual, supposedly.

    QuoSF August 29, 2007, 6:01 pm
  • “Also, on a game-by-game basis, Pedro Martinez has three of the 20 best-pitched games against the Yankees since 1990, more than any other pitcher in that time, including No. 1 — the 17-K one-hitter in 1999.”
    The man was the most dominant pitcher in the game for 5 years, perhaps the greatest stretch in all of history. And he has *only* three of the top of 20 games against the Yankees since 1990? Even though he faced them 26 times?

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 6:02 pm
  • yeah, I know, DC. I’ve learned how to interpret most personalities here.

    Brad August 29, 2007, 6:03 pm
  • The little man was absolutely destroying everyone else. Put those stats in that context, and he was struggling mightily against the Yankees, save for 1999.
    You simply don’t understand the statistics you cite, this is utterly clear (win totals? are you kidding? What are you, a member of the BBWA and do you vote on the Cy Young? Are you actually Bartolo Colon, Woosta?). I just don’t have any confidence that you are right, and you seem incapable of understanding that if Pedro was 50% better than the entire league, and he pitched 50% better than the entire league against the Yankees, then it is fair to say he performed at the same level against them that he did against everyone else – which were at dominant levels. Forget the actual numbers for a moment. The differential is quite important to lend context.
    I personally don’t know if this is the case, and I want to find these numbers and see if what I think to be true (that Pedro outperformed the rest of the league against the Bombers, sometimes greatly so, no matter the win totals) is true. Time to hit Baseball Reference.

    SF August 29, 2007, 6:03 pm
  • sf, brad, come on, you guys know i was just kidding about manny
    yeah, I did – as I said, just felt the need to defend our little eccentric!

    SF August 29, 2007, 6:03 pm
  • i don’t need stats to tell me that pedro was my least favorite sox pitcher to face [followed closely by wake]…the “daddy” comment came out of frustration after a tough loss or 2, but pedro always pitched us tough, as i remember it, so throw the damn stats out the window…

    dc August 29, 2007, 6:03 pm
  • But MAG, Manny was practically the only Red Sox to show up to that Yankees series last year (he had like an .850 OBP or something ridiculous in that series).
    Mind you, I questioned his commitment at the end of last year (even as a very big Manny fan), but I can’t speak for another man’s pain, and yesterday he was clearly, visibly hurt after the swing on the single.

    Devine August 29, 2007, 6:03 pm
  • Yup, but Pedro was “dominant” against the Yankees!

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 6:04 pm
  • ’bout an hour to go.

    Devine August 29, 2007, 6:10 pm
  • Pedro was dominant against EVERYONE. He dominated the Yankees like no other, because he dominated EVERYONE like no other. I hope Paul isn’t saying he dominated the Yankees *especially*, because that isn’t true. But, he has the 3 best-pitched games against them because he was one of, if not the best pitcher in the game for a long period of time, in the AL East, so obviously Pedro would be in there. I bet you if Greg Maddux were on the Red Sox, or the Orioles, he’d have a good number of ‘best games against the Yankees’ too.
    It’s a stupid argument, like most baseball arguments. Pedro dominated everyone, including the Yankees. But certainly not especially the Yankees. That’s all.

    AndrewYF August 29, 2007, 6:10 pm
  • many times he was woosta…he can’t help it the bullpen may have blown it or if the offense/defense let him down…that’s why the guys are saying win totals alone don’t tell the whole story…i’m not a stat-head…i respect them, but i also go with my gut, and anecdotally, my gut’s telling me that pedro deserves more respect than you’re giving him…

    dc August 29, 2007, 6:10 pm
  • SF -
    You’re going to look for a while. Even as he was losing the games against the Yankees, he was about average against them relative to his yearly numbers.
    Sure, he had a few great games against them. But it wasn’t a trend like it was against everyone else. The ERA shows that perfectly well relative to his yearly ERA leaving out the Yankees.
    Pedro lost 10 games in 26 starts to the Yankees. That’s a winning percentage of .620
    Against everyone else during that time in blood sox, the man lost 27 more games total.

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 6:13 pm
  • Paul IS saying he was especially “dominant” against the Yankees. And that’s revisionist history.
    And he cites three games to prove his point!? Out of the top 20 the Yankees have faced, but just since 1990.
    Meanwhile, Pedro’s 5 year run is easily in the top 5 of all time. He was simply incredible.
    But he was worse against Yanks.

    Andrew YF August 29, 2007, 6:17 pm
  • WHAT THE FUCK. That is not me. Please change your name.

    AndrewYF August 29, 2007, 6:18 pm
  • Sorry that was supposed to be addressed to Andrew YF

    Woot August 29, 2007, 6:18 pm
  • Okay, Woot.

    AndrewYF August 29, 2007, 6:19 pm
  • Paul? Paul? Did you go run away again? You can open your eyes now. Get out from under the bed!? Paul….

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 6:21 pm
  • Just for clarification purposes, what winning percentage must one have for someone to be dominant against another team?

    rob August 29, 2007, 6:22 pm
  • I wish I could get into this tonight, but I’m going out to a Sox bar here in Philly to watch the game. Should be tons of fun. Enjoy the game everyone, and I’ll be back to talk smack later.

    mattymatty August 29, 2007, 6:23 pm
  • Rob – Scientists have been working on this question for years.
    The answer is .742

    FenSheaParkway August 29, 2007, 6:23 pm
  • Thanks FSP…I thought a .620 winning percentage against someone was pretty damn good.

    rob August 29, 2007, 6:24 pm
  • Oh, by the way, Woosta, people much smarter than me or you have said that Pedro’s peak was the best ever in the history of baseball, so take that for what its worth. If you disagree, I recommend you put down your Baseball for Dummies book start reading some Baseball Prospectus.

    mattymatty August 29, 2007, 6:25 pm
  • Just as a pre-emptive strike, this is what I, and Woosta in a much more antagonistic, roundabout and sometimes very incorrect way are trying to say:
    Pedro dominated the Yankees, but typically not beyond his usual numbers, which everyone agrees are absolutely dominant. I’m not sure if any pitcher has recently. Pedro was not a “Yankee-killer” in the sense that Manny (career .392 .475 .686 against…jesus) is. The end (please).

    AndrewYF August 29, 2007, 6:25 pm
  • Let’s put things into an easy, simple perspective.
    Pedro 1998-2004:
    vs. Yanks: 10 losses in 26 games started
    vs. Else: 27 losses in 167 games started
    Nah, but he was especially “dominant” against the Yankees.

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 6:26 pm
  • Well, I guess it’s a post-emptive strike by now. Woosta, there’s really no need to be so derisive.

    AndrewYF August 29, 2007, 6:26 pm
  • Woosta: I don’t know what planet you’re coming from. Pedro was brilliant against the Sox, even if he was snake-bitten quite often, and ended up losing more games than he deserved. It’s a discussion we’ve had here in the past and reliving it now, and just with win totals, makes no sense. I will say this. Back in 2003, SF and I travelled up to Fenway for an April (I think) Yanks-Sox series. Pedro pitched what was without question the most extraordinary game i have ever witnessed–and I’ve seen a lot of baseball. Unhittable fastballs clocked at 96. 68 mph curves. everything hit Tek’s glove dead on. It was magic. The Yanks won in the 9th on a homer by Soriano.

    YF August 29, 2007, 6:28 pm
  • However, Andrew, if we agree that Pedro dominated everyone, and also dominated the Yankees at about the same level, then how does that make him not a Yankee killer?
    Because he was an “everyone” killer, that makes him not neccessarily a Yankee killer?
    Johan Santana is an “everyone” killer. I have no problem also referring to him as a Sox killer.
    These are all arbirtrary terms, which absolutely adds to how meaningful this argument is. :)

    QuoSF August 29, 2007, 6:29 pm
  • I was wrong on the winning percentage. His winning percentage against the Yanks was actually .524 (11-10). He got the no decision in 5 games.
    Against everyone else? He was 117-27 – good for a winning percentage of .813.

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 6:31 pm
  • Paul: I think our game thread needs a game thread.

    YF August 29, 2007, 6:32 pm
  • 130 posts thus far. All of this, no pitch has been thrown.
    Perhaps we should put this blog on PPV.

    rob August 29, 2007, 6:35 pm
  • Or maybe we kill this gamer and just run a Santoro vs Blake thread instead!
    KIDDING!!!

    YF August 29, 2007, 6:37 pm
  • Pitchers with at least 27 IP, lowest ERA v. NYY bet. 1999-2001:
    1. Pedro Martinez, 2.14
    Most strikeouts
    1. Pedro Martinez, 115 (next highest: 43)
    Highest K/9
    1. Pedro Martinez, 12.32
    Shutouts:
    t-1. Pedro Martinez, 1
    And, Woosta’s favorite, wins:
    2. Pedro Martinez, 4
    Pedro Martinez in his prime dominated the New York Yankees like no other pitcher before or since — not least because during his prime he was quite likely the most dominating pitcher (relative to his era) the sport has ever seen. End of story.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 6:38 pm
  • Well said, Paul.

    mattymatty August 29, 2007, 6:41 pm
  • By the way, I don’t hold it against Pedro one bit. Of those five greatest seasons on record, he was facing the eventual world champion in three of them and the eventual division winner in all five.

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 6:42 pm
  • New gamer up top.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 6:43 pm
  • Great job cherry picking Paul! It only took you an hour! And what happened to those two other great seasons 2002 and 2003?
    But basically Paul argument:
    Winning 52.4% of his starts equals “dominant”.
    Hey, Paul, what does winning 81.2% equal?

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 7:01 pm
  • Yelling into a vacuum:
    Wins?! That’s what you are using as your basis?
    I don’t think anything else needs to be posted to weaken your position any further.

    SF August 29, 2007, 7:05 pm
  • Nah, Pedro was “dominant” against the Yankees.
    But where’s all your research, SF? You give up so soon?

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 7:08 pm
  • By logical extension of Woosta’s argument, Beckett since 2003 has been more dominant with an ERA over 5 against New York because he has a better winning percentage than Pedro Martinez did between 1999 and 2001.
    So, I’ll await Woosta’s declaration that Josh Beckett is the Yankees’ daddy.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 7:08 pm
  • But where’s all your research, SF? You give up so soon?
    Paul did some of it, more when I have time, which is not right now.

    SF August 29, 2007, 7:10 pm
  • Paul, let’s see if you can follow the logic.
    1. From 1998-2004, Pedro had perhaps the five greatest seasons of all-time
    2. Against the NY Yankees he won 10 times in 26 losses.
    3. Against everyone else he won 117 times in 167 starts.
    Ergo, he wasn’t more “dominant” against the Yankees.
    Until you show how he was better against the Yankees than he was against other teams (and he was actually worse), I have no need to use anything more complex than wins.
    Next I’ll show it with ERA, but only if I have to. So far, I don’t have to.

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 7:16 pm
  • I just think it’s a bit of baiting, saying Pedro ‘dominated the Yankees like no pitcher before or after’. He dominated EVERYONE like no pitcher before or after, yes? Why not just say that? Why leave it only about the Yankees?
    A classic example of a “Yankee killer” is Manny Ramirez, who outperforms his career numbers significantly against the Yankees. Hell, each season he outperforms his season numbers against the Yankees. This is what we should look at. Otherwise, calling someone a “____-killer” is redundant.
    Now, this season, Jeter has been a “Sox-killer”, hitting .356 against them. But, career-wise, he actually underperforms his career numbers while playing the Sox, which feels weird, but is true.
    You could say Barry Bonds is an ‘everyone-killer’, but what’s the point? We know he’s good. But who is he significantly BETTER against, than his numbers would dictate? Pedro wasn’t better than his numbers against the Yankees, even during the 3-year span Paul picked out. (Meaning his stats against the Yankees, between the 3-year span, were not significantly better than his total stats between those three years). He certainly wasn’t better in other years. Calling him a “Yankee-killer” especially, then, is a bit of a stretch, and not really meaningful.

    AndrewYF August 29, 2007, 7:30 pm
  • Andrew -
    Take a look at the new title of this thread. That’s what Paul *wants* to say and support. Unfortunately, it’s just not true. Across his Sox time (of which FIVE seasons were dominant), he was just ordinary against the Yankees (by his standards).

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 7:34 pm
  • Interesting way to put words in my mouth, Woosta. I said this, which started your long, unfruitful attempt to rebut it:
    Except Pedro — who, no matter what he or various Yankee fans thought by the time 2003 and 2004 rolled around, dominated the Yanks during his prime like no other pitcher before or since.
    Nothing about dominating the Yankees “more” than other teams. That was your words. Nothing about Pedro being specifically a “Yankee-killer” Again, someone else’s words. What I said, explicitly, was that no matter what he or anyone else thought by the time 2003 and 04 rolled around (when he wasn’t nearly as dominant a pitcher), Pedro “during his prime” actually had dominated the Yankees “like no other pitcher.”
    I have the stats to prove that. You have wins, which has discredited yourself to every poster on this thread, Sox fan and Yanks fan alike.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 7:39 pm
  • Uh, except Pedro didn’t “dominate” the Yanks. Not even close. Indeed, that’s why he called them his daddy.
    Once you present a compelling counter-argument , I’ll be happy to refute it. Instead you’ve presented cherry-picked stats. Why leave out 2002 and 2003?
    (A: Cause the “results” don’t come out your way.)

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 7:43 pm
  • In his prime = 1999-01 by any rational definition, Woosta. Since you’ve clearly proven over and over again that you are not rational, I have nothing else to say to you.

    Paul SF August 29, 2007, 7:45 pm
  • Bullshit and you know it.
    1998: Age 26 160 ERA+ 233 IP
    1999: Age 27 245 ERA+ 213 IP
    2000: Age 28 285 ERA+ 217 IP
    2001: Age 29 189 ERA+ 116 IP
    2002: Age 30 196 ERA+ 199 IP
    2003: Age 31 212 ERA+ 186 IP
    2004: Age 32 124 ERA+ 217 IP
    By any “rational” definition, there’s no way to include 2001 (or 1998) and leave out 2002 and 2003. Indeed, the latter are cited as among his dominant seasons even as he was hurt for half of 2001 (thus no “rational” way to include it).
    You, sir, have cherry picked the best numbers to support your case while ignoring the ones that don’t (2002 and 2003). No surprise there. You’re a hack.

    Woosta YF August 29, 2007, 7:57 pm

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