Paul SF channeling Michael Ray Richardson?
Yeah, YF, sky’s the limit this season ;-)
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think the Sox are making long-term mistakes (still like Coco, Beckett, Pena, the Kids, etc). It’s just the in-game mistakes and uninspired performances that I’m speaking to…
Now there’s an idea: Michael Ray might manage pitchers better than Tito!
All right. We’ve tried to be fair and see that Francona hasn’t been too bad with the bullpen. Faith in Seanez to give us more than one inning, somewhat forgivable. Timlin for 2? Not unacceptable faith either. But continuing to bat Coco in the leadoff spot? Honestly. Youks was not productive tonight. I know he has the skills to bat in several different spots, but is he really able to get comfortable anywhere with this shuffling? He should be batting leadoff. I’m not sure what else there is to say. Crisp, for as well as he did tonight, it cannot be said that he has his legs under him. It just can’t. Until he can produce an .OBP at LEAST above his current level (about .325) there’s no reason to bat him first. None. …end rant.
Though the uninspired play definitely has something to do with it. Todd Jones is the worst closer in recent memory to have 30 or more saves. Absolute worst. (I do realize he’s had some success in the past, I’m talking this year only) We’re making him look like he’s in Mo, Paps, and Joe Nathan territory.
Hey Quo – Maybe you should let Paps get through one season before you start putting him in with Mo and Joe Nathan. Just a thought.
Paps has been better than Nathan and Mo this season, so the analogy is apt. Todd Jones has been wretched this season and for two straight games the Red Sox have made him look like Papelbon. Don’t see the problem with that…
Yeah, this ain’t been the most fun year. Specifically, not the most fun month of baseball recently. It’s all on the Yankees series. There will be hope or there will be despair…I’m guessing despair, just ’cause it seems like things go like they have been going unless it’s the Orioles.
Also, Todd Jones doesn’t like gay people. So eff that lousy effin’ closer.
Second that, YFinBeantown. RSN was punching Paps’ HOF ticket in May. Can’t wait until his rookie arm falls off in October, presuming they make it that far.
Tsk tsk. Such unsportsmanlike talk from the Yanks fans–I can see how you think Papelbon is falling off with his sub-1 ERA and all. What unnecessary yammering. Why not let your place in the standings and your own closer’s tremendous success speak for themselves?
Hmm, don’t quite remember anyone saying Papelbon was going into the HOF just yet. I do remember a lot of people talking about Rookie of the Year (still likely), him being the savior of the Sox’ bullpen (still more than true) and having the best season of any closer in baseball, including the beloved Mariano (also still true). If you can’t face that, that’s your problem, not RSN’s…
Against NY, he’s 17 up and 17 down with 8 K’s this year. I can see why their fans are really rooting against him. I would be the same way.
Not saying Papelbon doesn’t deserve some dap as the PTI crew would say – he’s having an amazing season, one of the best years from a closer I can remember. Just think that as it’s his first season, putting him in a category with Mo & Nathan is premature.
Also, Todd Jones does suck. This is his 5th season with 30+ saves, and his lifetime ERA is near 4. And people wonder why there are so few relievers in the HOF.
“having the best season of any closer in baseball”
Paul, you must not have been paying attention lately, you passive aggressive twit. Papelbon is having a fantastic season, no doubt. He has the best ERA of any closer in baseball – but he has 2 more blown saves than my man Mo. Isn’t saving games the measure of a closer?
Mo, there’s no need for name-calling. We try to keep the discussion here civil and pleasant. Again, what would Mariano do? He wouldn’t call someone a passive aggressive nitwit.
Glad to see you back lowering the level of discussion, Mo. Try saying something when you actually have a constructive point to make. Saves are not the measure of a closer — see Todd Jones above. 30-plus saves with high ERAs and WHIPs. When you can come on with two outs in the ninth and your team up by three and get a save, it’s a bit skewed. When Mariano’s ERA gets below 2.00, we can talk about who’s having the better year.
So…Todd Jones is having a better year than Rivera? (More saves, as many blown saves)
Saves is a ridiculous stat to base success on (at least as your lone indicator).
If you’re gonna nitpick like that…Rivera has had 4 outings where he’s given up 2 ER (his max in any outing), twice to lose a game, once to blow a save, once to get a save. Papelbon has given up 2 ER once (also his max). To Kansas City to blow a save and lose the game.
Both guys are having ridiculously good years. Any team would be happy to have them. I think anyone with an objective eye would say Papelbon is having a SLIGHTLY better year. But who cares? They’re both insanely reliable thus far.
Uh, Paul, Rivera’s era has been below 2.00 for a while now.
I agree with your point about saves to some degree. A performance like Paps’ last outing against Baltimore proves that.
Oops, you’re right, 1.83. My bad.
Blown saves are screwy as well. Come in in the eighth up by one with the bases loaded and no outs. Give up a run on a sac fly charged to the other pitcher and get out of the inning otherwise unscathed, and you get the blown save.
If you pitch the guy right, you’ll avoid that sac fly. It’s a closer’s job to get out of situations like the one you described.
If the argument is this season, then it’s easy; Paplebon has been the most dominant closer in the Bigs. But I do believe that RSN Paps love needs to be tempered a bit. I have a friend who is an Astros fan who bragged Lidge like the second coming of Eckersley, now look at Lidge, a decent closer w/5 blown this season. A closer’s ability needs to be looked at over a couple of seasons to really be known. Anyway this whole debate will probably be moot because if the Sox Braintrust has any sense they’ll move Paps to the rotation next season. A guy who is that good will benefit the Sox so much more by pitching 200 + innings a season opposed to 65 or 70.
That’s the thing, I dont understand why YFs think there’s a need for “tempering” excitement about Papelbon, especially since everyone in RSN knows it’s up in the air what he’ll even be doing next year. How can you be excited with what you’ve got if you don’t even know what you’ll end up getting?
I’m excited that we’ve got a dominant closer again who’s having the best season in baseball and looks like he’s a damn good young pitcher to boot. Why shouldn’t we be excited about that?
Or is it OK to treat Mely Cabrera like the next Mickey Mantle but not Jonathan Papelbon like the next Dennis Eckersley/Roger Clemens?
Okay…if your dominant problem last year was no closer and suddenly you had what appeared to be one of the (if not THE) best in the league, tell me you wouldn’t be excited. Temper, indeed.
Excellent point about Melky, Paul. I remember (facetious, but certainly worshipful) talk of plaques and statues and whatnot. And *we’re* being premature?
Harsh critic, Bernie51…I doubt many pitchers would agree. A ground ball to the middle part of the infield or the right side scores a run in that scenario. And the pitcher “fails” at that point? Man, that’s asking for a miracle-worker, not a pitcher. I wish Blown Saves had some sort of degree-of-difficulty rating. Would actually be cool to have that along with something similar for saves.
Stats like blown saves seem so arbitrary to me, albeit mildly helpful in evaluating…but anyone would be wise to look at context when evaluating saves or blown saves, it seems to me.
I never have thought of Melky as anything but a talented rookie who will probably develop into a good ballplayer, nothing more nothing less. You don’t have to temper anything Paul, that’s what great about being a fan, you can do anything you want. But me personally, I always wait a couple of seasons before I start hailing certain players the second coming of HOFS.
Let me clarify, didn’t think I would need to. I indicated Todd Jones as having a terrible season this season (though he’s never been what you would call absolutely “lights-out”) I figured I would not have to repeat myself as far as considering THIS season the context of my argument. Todd Jones is the worst 30 SV closer this season (probably putting up one of the worst single-seasons as a closer of all-time, though I’m too lazy to check). Thus, with the context of the argument being this season, putting Papelbon with Nathan and Mo is quite reasonable. He’s not a HOFer. Probably never will be, honestly, unless he stays a closer and CAN continue to have this kind of success. All-time, I give it to your man Mo. No argument from me there. First modern-era closer in the HOF and maybe the last for awhile unless you consider Hoffman. Even as a Red Sox fan I’d be upset if he didn’t make it, but I don’t think it’ll be neccessary.
Sorry. Lost track of myself. Was clarifying something I shouldn’t have needed to clarify. Not once did I say Paps was a shoo-in for the Hall. Guaranteed at LEAST top 3 in RoY? Only the most cynical Yankee fans would disagree with me there.
And as far as rookie arms falling off? Papelbon has pitched many more innings than this in a season. Chien-Ming Wang, while not a rookie, has not. Verlander has not. Liriano’s arm may have actually fallen off. Proctor? Over/under on when Torre finds out the hard way that he’s been abusing this kid?
Your degree of difficulty point is a great idea. That kind of stat would be extremely useful in evaluating a closer.
“f the argument is this season, then it’s easy; Paplebon has been the most dominant closer in the Bigs.”
BY: So far. I can’t help but think he may have hit a wall as of late though.
Why don’t we all shelve this discussion until all the returns are in?
“Proctor? Over/under on when Torre finds out the hard way that he’s been abusing this kid?”
Same story, oh well, pray for Dotel.
(Give me a pass on the corn?)
Proctor looked sharp last night and hasn’t been used near as much lately.
Papelbon had two bad games, followed by two good innings in one game. He was exhausted and was brought out anyway, which is why he struggled the last time. The fact that he gritted it out and got the save against the O’s was pretty encouraging for me.
I think we’re all in agreement, just haggling over language. Yes, Papelbon is the best closer in MLB this season. Yes, Rivera is the best active closer in MLB, if not of all time. Yes, we have no idea if Cabrera and Papelbon are future HOFers or even future great players. They’re great players this season, we should all be excited because they’re contributing to our respective teams a great deal and plugging holes that otherwise would have kept our respective teams from this point in the season (such as it is).
Just to make a point: I think part of the YFs love for Melky (and God knows few have it more than me) is that he’s an unlikely hero – with Sheff, Matsui and JD in the OF, Melky was never supposed to be here. Plus, after the disaster that he had last season expectations were very low when he came back up. He’s a feelgood story, battling against the odds and we all know he’ll be riding pine for at least all of next year and may well end up getting traded to the Mariners or something.
Lil Papi, on the other hand, came up with a lot of hype and expectation and, to his credit, has fulfilled that. But because of his background compared to Melky’s I think the sense is that SFs are more serious when they spout off about him while YFs are kind of cheering for the little guy when we promote Melky. Maybe it’s the perceived lack of levity when it comes to SFs that’s the difference.
I think we all expected (or at least hoped) Papelbon would be a great starter. No one knew he would be a closer at all, let alone hoped for the numbers we’re seeing. (Maybe we should come up with a clever one-word nickname so as to provide more levity to our excitement :-)
Frankly, you never really hope for numbers like we’ve seen from Papelbon. You hope for them the same way you hope Schilling goes and throws a no-hitter his next start. Sure, it could happen, but it’s still a huge surprise when it does…
Sure Sam. Levity, that’s what we lack compared to you guys, the most self-important of all sports fans worldwide. Please.
Leave a Comment
Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment.
This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.
Next post: Grinding It
Previous post: All Right, I’m Coming, I’m Coming: Sox-Tigers Gamer II
Spalding’s World Tour