Man Oh Man(ny)!!!

He’s (still) OUR disgrace!!!! 

Clutch hit today, Manny. At the moment the game isn’t over, so now Curt just needs to do his new job.

Consider this a post-trade deadline all-purpose Sox/Yanks discussion thread.

44 comments… add one
  • And in NY, Womack with the big hit. So much for being on the block. Much ado about nothing this year…..

    YF July 31, 2005, 5:36 pm
  • Pitching is 90% of the game. The Yankees won with 10 starters in July.
    You have to think the Sox are in better shape with pitching, but,

    • Is Miller having the normal up and down, or is he just down?
    • Will Clement have a good second half?
    • What will Schilling do?
    • Will Chacon be reliable?
    • Will Leiter have an ERA under 4?
    • Can Small do it again?
    • Will Pavano be better when he comes back?
    • Will Wright be better when HE comes back?
    • Will Brown ever come back?
    • Can Brown relieve?
    • Can Wright relieve?
    • Can the Big Unit still dominate?
    • I still think Wells will go down, probably at the worst time.

    Has Giambi ever been better than the last month? He hasn’t had a lot of RBIs, but 12 hrs in the month and an on base well over 500.
    And as Jeter said, We love to see Matsui up with the game on the line, because we know he’ll hit the ball hard. Yesterday was a perfect swing on the first pitch, and the ball flew into the gap. Today a triple off the wall. 11th inning, runner on third, nobody out.

    john yf July 31, 2005, 6:07 pm
  • No trades, but once again we tip our cap to Theo Epstein, who seems to know exactly what to do, and who clearly works off not emotion or immediacy, but by the credo of “good value”. Clearly Manny wouldn’t bring enough value in the short term to make offloading his contract valuable in the long term. With no moves of major impact at the deadline, the Sox have not stood pat, despite the lack of trades. They have possible additional contributors in Papelbon and Delcarmen, and if Foulke makes it all the way back all of a sudden there’s some depth in the staff. Papelbon’s start today was a mixed bag – he can clearly fool people but many of his pitches were up in the zone and his control was at best average. Not bad for a rookie in his first start, but no overconfidence in this corner. Still, he’s got potential, without any doubt, and my Dad would agree.
    5 in a row amidst all this discord against a wild card competitor. The Yankees should be thankful we’re keeping their competition nearby.

    SF July 31, 2005, 6:10 pm
  • The Sox did not stand pat. They picked up Jose Cruz, Jr. from the Rays for 2 minor leaguers. Cruz has always been a Yankee killer, plays above average defense, and gets on base, so it’s a pretty good solution to their outfield problem.
    As for the rest of SF’s comments, the idea that Theo did not stand pat by standing pat eludes our logic. In the end, they didn’t want to give up Hanley Ramirez, and for that, Manny is still on the Sox. And I’m not sure how much congratulation he needs for not getting taken to the cleaners.

    YF July 31, 2005, 6:26 pm
  • Ah, yes, Jose Cruz, he of the .213 average and .347 OBP. I did know that they picked him up, despite your snide post, hence the qualifying “major” before the word “impact” in my own comment. But why expect YF to actually read anything?
    Why YF can’t understand the pat-standing situation is also a bit difficult to grasp, too, but I’ll just chalk that up to his constant need to say something, usually contrarian, even if he has nothing useful to say at all.

    SF July 31, 2005, 6:49 pm
  • So is SF not pleased with The Genius and his new Cruz toy? Should we be congratulating Cash as well for not selling off the family jewels (or, in the case of Womack, the family zirconias) for a little help. After all, he didn’t just stand pat. At least not in SF terms. Pavano’s returning. And Wright. And Brown. And Sierra. Maybe Wang. Woweee! Plus A Player To Be Named for Buddy Doom and Groom, who had the bad taste to mention what we all know: if you’re not one of Joe’s “guys,” you sit.

    YF July 31, 2005, 7:29 pm
  • Yeah, pretty pleased, for the record. Papelbon, Delcarmen, Foulke, Schilling all second-half additions. Not too bad. The first half of the four is unproven (both of them Epstein Draftees), the second half of the four returning from injury. But I’ll take the pair of these home-growners and rehab projects over Small, Leiter, Chacon, Embree, and the other castoffs that Cashman had to resort to scraping off of other people’s dirty plates because his offseason signings have been so badly damaged. Theo had to do this, but only for the platoon of Cruz and Kapler in the (hopefully temporary) absence of Nixon, and he had to give up basically zippo. Not too bad.
    Epstein has kept all of his strongest cards, for now and, most importantly, for the offseason. The Sox are in the best position in this weak division, immediately and for the future.

    SF July 31, 2005, 8:09 pm
  • And don’t forget Graf and Cora, maligned terribly by YF. The Sox had a nice errorless streak going until Mueller’s miscue today, in no small part to these two pickups.

    SF July 31, 2005, 8:35 pm
  • The Sox, as they stand now, have the necessary talent and tools to make the playoffs. There are still some key guys on the DL, but there’s sufficient depth on the roster to hold down the fort until everyone’s healthy. Despite a bumpy post-ASB start, and amid all the trade deadline turmoil, Boston’s finally settling into its groove again. Five straight wins, including a sweep of a WC candidate (where one game was started by a rookie pitcher and two games were without Manny in the starting lineup no less), isn’t too shabby at all.
    It’s nice to see that the Sox have a strong enough farm system that they don’t have to resort to grabbing every castoff and no-name out there when there’s a hole in the pitching rotation.

    Sox Fan in VT July 31, 2005, 11:54 pm
  • Oh, and Cruz came from the Diamondbacks, YF, not the Rays. Or was that supposed to be a jab at the weakness of the NL West?
    I’d hardly call Cruz a “blockbuster” trade. Theo got him for next to nothing. Ditto Cora and Graffanino. I’m satisfied that Theo didn’t drop a major bomb on the team–there’s already plenty of talent on the roster and it’s not worth selling the farm for quick fixes that may not even work. Thinking long term has its advantages too.

    Sox Fan in VT August 1, 2005, 12:00 am
  • SF –
    I seem to remember one of those “castoffs” beating the Red Sox recently. And how many games did the Yanks pick up on the Sox with the castoffs?
    Wells is a three time loser Yankee castoff — of course he tried to come back to the Yankees before going to the Sox.
    Cash called Giambi before picking up Embree.

    john yf August 1, 2005, 12:03 am
  • Called Giambi for what…the name of his doctor? Maybe he figured that whatever Giambi was up to was bound to help Embree. Just poking there, but David Wells has more than earned his pay this year, not that we need to go into that again.
    Speaking of castoffs (since you want to toot the horn of one Al Leiter)- I seem to remember the next two games a little more, don’t you? Games when the Yankee pen was in dire need of rest, and he could not make it into the seventh for them, but that’s all for not. But, aside from the game Clement was hit and the Paps today, the Red Sox pitchers have done the bullpen justice over the past ten days.
    Excellent point about picking up the games, but I believe the Red Sox did pick up games, not that it really matters right now, but nonetheless, the did gain – and without implosion with KC, should at least hold ground.
    I’m happy with Theo, but I happen to think the real winners here were the Yanks. With the Sox not making any moves when they could have for good pitchers, it allowed the Yanks to stay in contention. Had Boston gone out and gave up a ton for Wagner or Burnett or Schmidt, the Yanks would have been in more trouble than they already are. Had the Sox been able to take Miller out of the rotation and put in Burnett or Schmidt, that rotation would have been hard to beat. I’m happy to keep the younger guys though, and think it will work out for the better in the long run.
    As it stands now, we had a great performance from the rookie today, another from the rookie releiver, Manny still belongs to us, and the state of the Nation is strong.
    In Theo we trust, no matter the outcome this year, he knows what he’s doing.

    Brad August 1, 2005, 3:18 am
  • SF,
    Considering Foulke a good ‘second half addition’ is as laughable as a Yankee fan saying that Jaret Wright will be the key to the Yankees second half.

    Knuckles August 1, 2005, 8:59 am
  • Knuckles:
    You are wrong. Foulke’s track record is as one of the premier closers in the game. Wright’s track record is as a hotheaded injury-prone underachiever. If you want to make an equivalency, go ahead, but I think it is an incorrect one.

    SF August 1, 2005, 9:13 am
  • Knuckles: if the Yankees were expecting an injured Mariano Rivera back, even at 90% health, for the second half, and the Red Sox were expecting, say, someone like an injured Jaret Wright back for the second half, and I made the same comment you made, you’d call me on it, right?

    SF August 1, 2005, 9:19 am
  • The Yanks used 10 starters in July. I’m not sure where to check this, but I think they picked up 2 1/2 games during the month. Some of the losses were due to KB, who may have seen his last start.
    He’s off for another 2 week rehab. Last time they had to rush him back without any minor league starts because they didn’t have enough bodies. Don’t be surprised if he’s not on the major league roster Sept. 1.

    john yf August 1, 2005, 11:45 am
  • SF, normally you’re the only sane Sox poster on this site, but you’ve gone over the edge this time. Please don’t compare Foulke with Mo, even a 90% Mo. That’s not right. Or shall we go ahead and compare Ruben Sierra’s return later this month with you guys getting a 90% fit Ortiz back?
    Let’s keep the debate sensible, people.

    Sam August 1, 2005, 12:00 pm
  • PS – while Brown may have been a great pitcher in his prime, I’ll be very happy if this is the start of his retirement. He’s been a total disaster for the Yanks, and one for which The Cashman must take the blame. Plus we gave up Yahency Brazoban in that deal.
    A warning to any GM who thinks of handing out long-term contracts to pitchers…

    Sam August 1, 2005, 12:10 pm
  • PS – while Brown may have been a great pitcher in his prime, I’ll be very happy if this is the start of his retirement. He’s been a total disaster for the Yanks, and one for which The Cashman must take the blame. Plus we gave up Yahency Brazoban in that deal.
    A warning to any GM who thinks of handing out long-term contracts to pitchers…

    Sam August 1, 2005, 12:13 pm
  • Sam, the point is one that even you should be able to understand. I am not saying Foulke is Rivera (nobody is), but rather Foulke is a player of importance like Rivera is a player of proven, indisputable, and perennial importance. Unlike, say, Jaret Wright, who has never proven the ability to do anything perennially, except complain and get hurt. To say that Foulke’s return is of equivalent impact as Wright’s is ludicrous, and that was my point.

    SF August 1, 2005, 12:16 pm
  • Our SF Hypocrisy Meter just hit the red. Theo gets props for banking on rookies and injured vets to be the Sox second-half inspiration? Because they’re better than the Yankee returning vets and rooks?

    YF August 1, 2005, 12:29 pm
  • Uh, yeah.
    Theo gets props for not making rash moves, for holding onto the future, for not making idiotic 3/21M signings of hotheaded injury risks, for not acting like a Yankees GM, for being optimistic. YF doesn’t recognize those traits, so of course he has no idea what to call it.
    I call it “patience”. It’s a quality that Yankees fans have never had any reason to possess, and I assume YF would at least cop to that.

    SF August 1, 2005, 12:33 pm
  • SF is probably just upset because Cash HAS been patient. Instead of trading away the farm (system), he’s gone out and for little cost gotten bodies to hold the fort. And lo and behold, Leiter, Chacon and Small have done a good job. Patience, virtue and reward — 2.5 games in the standings while the Sox should have put the race away.

    john yf August 1, 2005, 12:40 pm
  • I saw Bill James on PBS yesterday in a terrible interview. He said pitching is about 35 percent of baseball.

    Josh sf August 1, 2005, 12:57 pm
  • while the Sox should have put the race away.

    John YF: you might want to email Murray Chass and tell him to stop posting idiotic things under your handle.

    SF August 1, 2005, 12:59 pm
  • Keep living with your dillusions, SF. Both teams stood pat, and for the same reasons—a weak market and a slim hand to deal from. Neither GM deserves a special merit badge here. “He didn’t do something dumb” is not a great endorsement. Both teams can look for players to come through their own systems for a little help. How much remains to be seen. And we suspect there’ll be some waiver movement later on, so this story isn’t written just yet.

    YF August 1, 2005, 2:52 pm
  • Yes, Theo’s a genius for doing what every single one of us would have done. NOT one Sox fan has posted that Manny should be gone, regardless of the fact that he makes $20 million a year and doesn’t have the decency to work hard for 3 hours a day for 180 days a year. Let’s face what do you think his dumbass would be doing if he wasn’t playing baseball? He ain’t no Derek Jeter, who would have been successful anyway at other endeavors.
    There ain’t no single Yankee fan that rooted for him to stay on the Sox, we all silently prayed he’d get traded and still get hit by a bus, or at least flunk a steroid test. The Yankee GM’s worst move by far was not picking him up off the waiver wire last year, especially in retrospect since they wouldn’t have won the WS without him. Period.
    So yes let’s all call Theo a genius for doing the blatantly obvious. Duh.

    Battingly August 1, 2005, 2:57 pm
  • Why is someone a genius for not doing something stupid? Or, in Theo’s case, continuously trying to do something stupid (trading Manny) and failing at it. In Theo we trust? I trust Joe Torre because he’s won 4 championships in 5 years. And each time he pressed the right button at the right time. Theo’s only one for two and has made his fair share of mistakes (the so-called closer-by-committee of ’03). I know – relative to the rest of Red Sox history, Theo is Moses coming down from the mountain with the Ten Commandments. But, relative to the rest of the world, he’s still trying to prove he’s more than a one hit wonder.
    Also Foulke cannot be compared to Rivera on any level. While he has come up in some big situations for the Sox, and as such is an “important” player, he does approach the level of Rivera. I know Rivera was prefaced with “perennial” in that desperate comparison, but still…Foulke has been a cog in the RS machine for ONE season. Rivera has put the Yankees on his back postseason after postseason after postseason after postseason. It’s like comparing someone who hits 50 HRs in one season to Babe Ruth. It’s done all the time by the statisticians at ESPN, especially in the postseason, and it looks really stupid. Foulke and Rivera don’t belong in the same sentence. I realize that ’04 was the end-all-be-all for RSN, but it was ONE season. Don’t compare them to dynasty cornerstones.

    lp August 1, 2005, 4:48 pm
  • It seems clear that Theo tried to do something, but he wasn’t going to act just to act, or to placate fans who have blindly come to believe that trades must be made at deadline time. It was a seller’s market. Both teams decided that a series of pre-deadline moves coupled with a belief that internally they might fix problems would suffice. The Sox surely saw what other posters have said — that if we get healthy, it will be like making deadline deals. Fact is, the Sox have 9 guys on the 25 man roster who were not there a month ago. The Manny deals all sounded like disasters, and Theo surely knew that, which is why he did not do the deal.
    In all the Sox pitching gives them a big edge, especially is Papel/Carmen works out as it looks as if it could. The Yanks lineup will, alas, keep them in the race. It will come down to September and may stretch into October. This will not surprise anyone here.

    dcat SF August 1, 2005, 4:55 pm
  • Yankees fans continue to miss the point, further cementing my own impression that deep thinking and solid reading comprehension are not embedded skills of the Bomber fan. The comparison in question was not Foulke’s skill as a closer vs. Rivera’s skill as a closer. Rivera wins that one hands down. The comparison was in the return of Foulke vs. the return of Wright. Why is it so hard to grasp this?
    I have no argument with a “Foulke is not Rivera nor has he had a career like Mo’s” storyline. But I do have a problem with “Foulke’s return is equal to Wright’s return” storyline. Which was the only point, if people would just read more closely.

    SF August 1, 2005, 5:02 pm
  • john-yf… sorry, i just read your postabout Cash not trading away the farm system. hmmmm… what farm system would that be?!?

    TonyC.25 August 1, 2005, 5:05 pm
  • SF: why do you keep insisting that Foulke is as good as or better than Rivera?!? Foulke is not Rivera nor has he had a career like Mo’s.

    Earl August 1, 2005, 5:13 pm
  • Earl has switched sides!!! Bad Earl! Bad Earl!!

    SF August 1, 2005, 5:19 pm
  • Don’t you people READ?! SF never said that Foulke was as good or better than Rivera. He said that Foulke is not comparable to Jaret Wright, which is what someone claimed.
    Foulke =/= Jaret Wright. Foulke is a guy with a proven track record; a steady performer with more than a few good seasons in his career. Jaret Wright is none of these, at least not without Mazzone around. Foulke is also =/= to Rivera. Rivera is a Hall of Fame closer. Foulke isn’t. But that doesn’t make him worthless.

    Sox Fan in VT August 1, 2005, 5:27 pm
  • What farm system? The one that produced Cano and Wang this year.
    like taking candy from a baby
    and before you go into the past…
    also the farm system that produced 4 WS in 5 years
    then there’s Arroyo, Nixon and who?

    john massengale August 1, 2005, 11:58 pm
  • hahahah.
    John, are you comparing the two systems currently, or the systems of ten years ago that produced guys who are well into their thirties now?
    Well, the Red Sox produced Roger Clemems. Does that give us the leg up? Cano has been a nice surprise, and Wang has yet to prove anything on a second trip through AL teams with a winning records. The Red Sox easily counter at second with Ramirez and Perdroia.
    Even if I gave you Wang over Paps or Abe Alvarez, which I won’t do yet, the line of pitchers in the Red Sox organization is much more promising than Scott Proctor or Wayne Franklin who have both proven completely useless at the big league level.
    This is why all trades rumors involving the Sox revolved around these guys and the Yanks revolved around Cano, not Wang. Wang has proven nothing but being prone to being hurt, already had arm problems, and can’t get the fastball up high enough to really blow it by guys. Read the scouting report if you think otherwise.
    Indeed, like Candy from a baby.

    Brad August 2, 2005, 3:31 am
  • “The Red Sox easily counter at second with Ramirez and Perdroia.”
    Ramirez and Pedroia are in the minor leagues. Cano has proven that he can do it in the major leagues in tough games. He’s had many big hits, many big plays, many big games. He’s not good for a rookie, he’s one of the best 2B in the league.
    When was the last time the Sox had a 2B as good as Cano, whether from trade, free agency or the system?
    “Even if I gave you Wang over Paps or Abe Alvarez”
    “Paps” has pitched 5.1 innings in the major leagues (and how does a player get a nickname after 5 inning?).
    Wang has pitched 83.1 innings and proven that he is one tough pitcher. He’s faced the best when his team was struggling, and he’s shown that he’s not afraid of anyone. Like Cano, he’s not a good rookie, he’s a good player.
    I don’t know who the f’ Alvarez is, but I do know he’s not one of the 19 pitchers the Sox have used in the major leagues this year. You can not compare “potential” to to producing when the chips are down.
    And, of course, you’ve ignored one of the biggest points. Who’s on the major league roster from the farm? Arroyo, Nixon and who? On the basis of your logic we’ll have to discount Nixon, because he’s been injured a few times.
    When was the last time the Boston farm produced the equivalent of Mo, Bernie, Pettite, Jorgie, Mattingly and Derek? (These players all played on the team that played Seattle in the playoffs — without Mattingly they were the core of the team that won 4 WS, including 12 WS games in a row.)
    Then Sori came along. The reason the Yanks could trade for A-Rod and the Sox couldn’t, was that we had Sori.

    john massengale August 2, 2005, 10:40 am
  • Baseball America says the Sox have a deeper farm system, and maybe they do. But the point is not how many blue chip AAA players you produce, but how many blue chip major league players you produce.
    The Yankee system has produced more over the last decade, and more this year. The rest is speculation. There is no guarantee that Ramirez or Alvarez? will ever be top major league players. Look how long the Sox held on to Fossum.

    john massengale August 2, 2005, 11:13 am
  • “Look how long the Sox held on to Fossum”
    John: Fossum was traded for Schilling. In the previous comment you talk about how the Yankees’ farm system is so good that they were able to take Soriano and spin him for A-Rod, but in the next comment you crap on the Sox’ farm system for letting Fossum go. Which is it? It’s gotta be hard typing out of both sides of your hands, to butcher a saying.

    SF August 2, 2005, 11:40 am
  • SF
    Are you intentionally twisting what I said, or did you just not read it well? I didn’t say there was anything wrong with trading Fossum. For years the Sox said Fossum was going to be great. He’s not. They should have traded him sooner.
    Saying a minor leaguer is going to be great is not the same as that player being a great major leaguer. Fossum is finally pretty good, but many would say it’s a lot easier to pitch in TB than Beantown.
    The Sox might have won the WS the year before (you may remember that was a close series that went down to the last pitch), if they had traded Fossum for Colon.
    Cash has been very good at knowing whom to trade and whom to keep.

    john massengale August 2, 2005, 1:06 pm
  • SF
    I notice you’re also ducking the question of what top quality players the Sox system has produced in the last 10 years.

    john massengale August 2, 2005, 1:08 pm
  • They should have traded him sooner
    I am really lost about what your point is, John. They should have traded him sooner? For your sake? Or for the team’s sake? My opinion is that they traded him at the PERFECT time, since they got Schilling and then won the World Series.
    And, I am not twisting anything. You insult the Sox’ farm system but never acknowledge that the Red Sox have developed similar bargaining chips, guys who were traded for, uh, Schilling and Pedro, even as you tout the upgrade from a guy like Soriano, who in fact went to the Yankees as a free agent minor leaguer because they were able to outbid everyone else. They did NOT draft him.
    And I am not ducking your question. I don’t think the Sox have the greateast track record w/r/t developing talent, in fact it’s been mediocre at best, but their record isn’t quite so horrid as you make out. Look at some of the players that have come through the system, and you will realize that it isn’t at all like you say.
    1. Fossum turns into Schilling (actually, Schilling himself was a Sox draft pick, but I won’t count him out of deference to common sense).
    2. Carl Pavano turns into Pedro Martinez.
    3. Trot Nixon.
    4. Jeff Suppan (not an elite pitcher, but still a veteran workhorse, lost in the expansion draft several years back).
    5. Varitek (not drafted by the Sox, but acquired while still a minor leaguer and developed by the Sox, to some extent. Derek Lowe too, in some ways, if you want to use the Soriano standard for these two guys)
    6. David Eckstein
    7. EDIT: Bagwell (I forgot about him. Thanks to JTP for reminding me.)
    8. And of course, Nomar.
    And there are a host of guys traded off or let go that were developed in the Boston system, and who have regular roles elsewhere: Scott Hatteberg, Tomo Ohka, Tony Armas Jr., amongst others. Clearly they can’t match the Yankees record of Williams, Rivera, Posada, Jeter, etc., but I never made that argument. You took the opportunity to slam the Red Sox’ record without any firm grasp of that record.
    As for the current farm systems? Hands down, on paper (and in the minds of most scouts), the Sox have a better one. Time will tell who ends up contributing in Boston, and who ends up contributing to getting someone else to Boston.

    SF August 2, 2005, 2:21 pm
  • What about me? A couple of gun-toting incidents at strip clubs and a bad stint in CAL-NY shouldn’t eliminate me from the discussion. I used to hit BOMBS in Fenway, don’t you Sox fans forget it.

    Mo Vaughn August 2, 2005, 4:17 pm
  • Cat got your tongue, John? Or has reality finally silenced you?

    SF August 3, 2005, 6:51 am

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