Manny: Suspended 50 Games

It ain't just A-Rod. For Sox fans who had any great illusions about the cleanliness of their series champ teams, this should serve as a tonic. But, on the other hand, who cares? Discuss. 

Update: Here's Manny's statement:

Recently I saw a physician for a personal health issue. He gave me a medication, not a steroid, which he thought was okay to give me. Unfortunately, the medication was banned under our drug policy. Under the policy that mistake is now my responsibility. I have been advised not to say anything more for now. I do want to say one other thing; I've taken and passed about 15 drug tests over the past five seasons.

I want to apologize to Mr. McCourt, Mrs. McCourt, Mr. Torre, my teammates, the Dodger organization, and to the Dodger fans. LA is a special place to me and I know everybody is disappointed. So am I. I'm sorry about this whole situation.

151 comments… add one

  • Yeah and apparently Manny learned nothing from Alex being that he’s blaming it on a medication taken for a personal matter. In fairness to Manny this is fairly new so maybe he too will sit down with Gammo and tell the complete truth. Baseball is really taking a ton of headshots here, first Alex, now Manny…if Papi or Pujols go next this game is in big trouble. What a shame.

    John - YF May 7, 2009, 12:29 pm
  • Well, there you have it. Not a surprise, I suppose. I don’t think too many (rationally thinking) Sox fans had “great illusions” of a sparkling clean team. Everyone knows no club was (and probably still is) untouched. This will give the Manny haters more fodder.

    DUFF - SF May 7, 2009, 12:29 pm
  • That was written poorly, I was not insinuating that Alex told the complete truth, I meant maybe many would sit with Gammo, like Alex did and hopefully he would tell the complete truth. That’s better.

    John - YF May 7, 2009, 12:31 pm
  • Manny the #1 twitter meme. PEDs# 3. A-Rod coat tails it to #9.

    YF May 7, 2009, 12:35 pm
  • Well he was clearly guilty of something since he didnt appeal the suspension…

    sam-YF May 7, 2009, 12:40 pm
  • Wonder what he did exactly…
    Still, not much of a shock, comparatively.

    Devine May 7, 2009, 12:43 pm
  • I was in Buffalo Wild Wings when the story broke: every TV in the place suddenly changed to the story. I’m happy that the Sox traded him now, but I’m really saddened by this. After ARod came forward with his steroids confession I decided that the only players that would truly surprise me and sadden me were Albert Pujols, Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz.
    Depressing day for the sport. Also, if what ARod told us is true then at least he gave them up at some point. Manny is a fucking dumbass for continuing to take them. He was always one of my favorites in Boston, but good riddance to him now. He and Palmiero, two of my heroes that are now tarnished in my mind.

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 12:44 pm
  • At this point any pitcher or hitter who led the league in anything between 1995-2003 more likely than not took PEDs of some sort.

    sam-YF May 7, 2009, 12:50 pm
  • Actually I think I agree with Lar (from the other thread): Jeter testing positive would destroy my love of the sport, moreso than Pujols or Ortiz.

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 12:51 pm
  • I have to say….I think maybe we should find out what it is that he took.

    walein May 7, 2009, 12:52 pm
  • Also, does anyone know what the rules of appeal are in this case?

    walein May 7, 2009, 12:55 pm
  • No player should being outed should shock us anymore. I really doubt if more than a handful are completely clean throughout their entire careers. I just wish the sport could move past this rather than having it bleed and trickle out into infinity with a new name every other month.
    Hey, maybe universally respected truth seeker Selena Roberts can do the sport a favor and tell us the other 102 players named on the list she had access to so we can just pull the damn band-aid off.

    Mark _YF May 7, 2009, 12:56 pm
  • Doesn’t surprise me in the least.
    Perspective is gathering steam. Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Manny, etc will all be voted into the HOF. You just can’t keep those guys out, when Will Mays himself admitted to taking greenies, and who knows what else everyone took.
    Is it sad? Maybe. But if you’re saddened by knowing that your favorite players took PEDs in recent years, you really have to be saddened by the fact that most players were using something during their careers.
    It’s funny that the ‘steroid era’ will be looked at as not a black mark on the face of baseball, but the time where finally, everyone realizes that steroids and PEDs were prevalent throughout history. And boy did everyone overreact.

    AndrewYF May 7, 2009, 12:56 pm
  • Ath, for me it’s DJ and Mattingly. If either of them were ever named I’d be crushed. Otherwise it’s just disgust and disappointment.

    John - YF May 7, 2009, 12:57 pm
  • At this point any pitcher or hitter who led the league in anything between 1995-2003 more likely than not took PEDs of some sort.
    Except Canseco’s MVP year was 1988.

    Rob May 7, 2009, 1:05 pm
  • Same for me, Ath. Jeter is probably the only name that would truly surprise and sadden me. (God I hope it never happens, but I have to look at Ortiz and wonder. But I really really do not want his legacy tarnished.)

    DUFF - SF May 7, 2009, 1:06 pm
  • To quote my friend: “I’m not surprised, all of Torre’s guys juice.”
    (Kidding, of course. Anything to lighten the mood. *sigh*)

    Kluv - SF May 7, 2009, 1:10 pm
  • Well put, Andrew. Agree completely. And Rob Neyer, as per usual has excellent and well-resoined perspective. From his blog (http://myespn.go.com/blogs/sweetspot/0-2-32/MannyLand-takes-50-games-off.html):
    “Shocking, right?
    Well, no. Not if you’ve been paying attention at all, for the last five years. So I hope we’ll be spared the handwringing that usually attends such news…
    Is he the greatest player to admit using drugs? No, he’s not.
    Is he the greatest player who’s known to have used drugs? No, he’s not.
    Has he probably said a few hundred times over the years that he was clean? Yeah, probably.
    His statement today:
    ‘Recently I saw a physician for a personal health issue. He gave me a medication, not a steroid, which he thought was okay to give me. Unfortunately, the medication was banned under our drug policy. Under the policy that mistake is now my responsibility. I have been advised not to say anything more for now. I do want to say one other thing; I’ve taken and passed about 15 drug tests over the past five seasons.
    I want to apologize to Mr. McCourt, Mrs. McCourt, Mr. Torre, my teammates, the Dodger organization, and to the Dodger fans. LA is a special place to me and I know everybody is disappointed. So am I. I’m sorry about this whole situation.’
    Could that be any more vague? Hardly.
    Did he mean to cheat? I don’t have the slightest idea.
    Nor do I care much. As any number of retired players have said, if steroids had been readily available in the 1960s and ’70s, they’d have been popular then, too. At the highest levels of competition, athletes will look for whatever edges they can find, and most of them make little distinction between spitballs and corked bats and banned pharmaceuticals. Whether they’re right or wrong is, to some degree, your call.”

    Mark _YF May 7, 2009, 1:13 pm
  • What evidence is there for YFs insinuation that Manny was taking anything (we don’t even know what the substance is) while with the Sox?
    According to Manny’s statement, he has repeatedly tested cleanly — “15 times,” he says, a claim that can easily be refuted by MLB if it isn’t true.
    I’m not na├»ve about the prevalence of these drugs in the League, but it seems to me Yankee fans are awfully quick to give their own players the benefit of the doubt while assume the worst for other teams’ stars.
    Isn’t it at least plausible that a hitter like Manny might not turn to PEDs until later in his career (i.e. after leaving Boston) to prop up numbers more readily put up during his prime?

    Hudson May 7, 2009, 1:13 pm
  • “Isn’t it at least plausible that a hitter like Manny might not turn to PEDs until later in his career (i.e. after leaving Boston) to prop up numbers more readily put up during his prime?”
    No its not. Given how every one of these stories has developed over the years. \

    sam-YF May 7, 2009, 1:16 pm
  • (Meanwhile, can we assume that either Carl Pavano was spiting the Yankees with semi-faked injuries, or else has started taking both HGH *and* steroids since moving to Cleveland?)

    Hudson May 7, 2009, 1:16 pm
  • Hudson: You’re right. I’ll let Manny speak for Manny.

    YF May 7, 2009, 1:17 pm
  • Let me turn it around:
    What evidence is there for SFs insinuation that A-Rod was taking anything while with the Yanks?
    I can’t see you defending logic.
    Meanwhile, let’s see the other 103 names.

    Rob May 7, 2009, 1:18 pm
  • Sam-YF: That’s pretty thin reasoning.
    You don’t think there are any players who resist the temptation initially, then cave when they start to age and feel they need a boost to stay competitive?

    Hudson May 7, 2009, 1:18 pm
  • YF: Point is that if Manny is lying about his 15 clean tests, MLB can either verify that or not. How about we see the dates of those tests?

    Hudson May 7, 2009, 1:19 pm
  • Hudson:
    The previous “clean” drug tests don’t mean much. It’s very well documented how common it is for even Olympic-level tests to be fooled, and the MLB tests are reportedly far less stringent.
    “Isn’t it at least plausible that a hitter like Manny might not turn to PEDs until later in his career (i.e. after leaving Boston) to prop up numbers more readily put up during his prime?”
    Sure, it’s plausible, but where do you draw the line? Manny’s about to turn 37, so is 5-7 years removed from a hitter’s typical prime.

    Mark _YF May 7, 2009, 1:21 pm
  • Rob: I don’t have any evidence that ARod juiced while he was a Yankee. But plenty of non-Sox fans seem to believe that, and ARod doesn’t help himself much in that department with his history of prevarications, lies and weasel-worded p.r. statements.

    Hudson May 7, 2009, 1:21 pm
  • Couldn’t disagree more. It’s becoming obvious that everyone took steroids during this era, but to say that it’s not a big deal because Willy Mays took greenies is idiocy. Comparing greenies or methamphetamines (which Hank Aaron admitted to taking) to steroids is just not possible; steroids are far-and-away worse. It’s not even close.
    People aren’t going to say “ahh well everyone tries to get an advantage throughout history so this is not a big deal.” This is going to go down as the darkest era in baseball history.

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 1:22 pm
  • Hudson, I think you may have it a bit backwards. Most Yankee fans believe that NO team from this era was untainted. Clearly, a large number of big Yankee players (ARod, CLemens, Giambi) have been outed. What has been frustrating is the attitude of some Sox fans that their great teams of the last decade were totally clean. So, I think this is a bit of Goose Gander.
    NO reasonable Yankee fan can think that the Yankees were any way cleaner than anybody else. But I think we all have to realize, whether we were rooting for the Sox, Yanks, Royals, Marlins, etc…our teams had dirty players on them during the Steroid era. No one is better, no one is worse.

    Observer283 May 7, 2009, 1:22 pm
  • Mark wrote:
    >>>The previous “clean” drug tests don’t mean much. It’s very well documented how common it is for even Olympic-level tests to be fooled, and the MLB tests are reportedly far less stringent.<<<
    Not knowing which substance is involved yet, this seems rather speculative. Some are easily-detected, some aren’t.

    Hudson May 7, 2009, 1:23 pm
  • >>>Most Yankee fans believe that NO team from this era was untainted.<<<
    This is a spin that Yankee fans arrived at only after one prominent Yankee after another came under fire: “Everybody’s doing it.” If it had been Papi, Nixo and Pedro instead of Sheff, HGHiambi and Clemens, the shoe would be on the other foot.
    The question remains, why is it that more prominent Yankees have been fingered than any other team’s stars? You can speculate that it’s some kind of selective media interest, or one could very reasonably claim based on the available evidence that using was more prevalent in the Bronx.

    Hudson May 7, 2009, 1:26 pm
  • Hudson: You’re fooling yourself.
    Rob: Agree completely. I don’t think we can give any player the benefit of the doubt. If you tested positive (either in 2003 or now) you probably have been taking them more than what you’re saying.

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 1:28 pm
  • Mark: It’s hardly a stretch to suggest that a 32-year-old popular hitting machine might be less tempted than a 37-year-old who is struggling to maintain his luster and reputation (after ankling his longtime team in a particularly clumsy fashion). Manny has always had a lot on his shoulders, but on top of his advancing age, he has a lot more to prove now than ever.

    Hudson May 7, 2009, 1:30 pm
  • What has been frustrating is the attitude of some Sox fans that their great teams of the last decade were totally clean.
    Observer, can you point out one comment anywhere on here where a Sox Fan had this point of view? We’ve discussed it several times, and most SF’s believe there were a few steroid users on our championship teams. I personally would put money on: Varitek, Damon, Nixon, Millar, and Nomar.

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 1:31 pm
  • Ath: I’m hardly “fooling myself.” No one could be surprised at this point if Manny was juicing in Boston (or if any other star in MLB gets pinched).
    I am, however, noting that YFs *immediate* and knee-jerk reaction was that he was juicing in Boston, even though there is no direct evidence of that yet, and we don’t even know what this substance is yet.

    Hudson May 7, 2009, 1:32 pm
  • “What has been frustrating is the attitude of some Sox fans that their great teams of the last decade were totally clean.”
    This is exactly what’s frustrating (and on a broader note what’s frustrating to me as a baseball fan is why there’s no PED furor in the other professional sports, which I think are just as “guilty” as baseball).
    And Hudson, I have to wonder if you gave Bonds, Raffy, Clemens and the “weasel-worded” A-Rod the benefit of the doubt you’re now affording Manny when those allegations were first made.

    Mark _YF May 7, 2009, 1:33 pm
  • Hudson, that’s my point: he probably did juice while in Boston. Of course we don’t know what substance he was taking yet, but we should not give him the benefit of the doubt. Odds are he took them in Boston.

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 1:34 pm
  • “This is a spin that Yankee fans arrived at only after one prominent Yankee after another came under fire.”
    Riiiiiight, because it’s only us lying cheating Yankee fans that think steroids/PED’s were/are an major issue in the game of baseball. HGHiambi, that’s helping your argument too. You want to generalize, generalize, but I have a feeling that you are in the minority with your brethren.

    John - YF May 7, 2009, 1:35 pm
  • Just another reason teams should not deal with Scott Boras.
    I hope Manny is telling the truth, but in reality, I don’t think he is. I think he’s hoping that it’ll go away, but unless the name of the substance is made public along with perhaps the doc coming out and talking about the perscciption, the doubt will be there.

    Brad May 7, 2009, 1:36 pm
  • P.S. I think it’s a bit too easy to say that “everyone took steroids during this era.” No, not everyone. Lots of players, maybe even a majority, may have tried them. The percentage who used regularly over a long time is probably a lot lower than that.
    We should give the players who *didn’t* use credit. “Everybody did it” is both inaccurate and a facile excuse.

    Hudson May 7, 2009, 1:37 pm
  • Agree completely. If he appeals, and the doctor comes forward with evidence and proof of what occurred, then he can regain his reputation. Until then he does not get the benefit of the doubt from me, and he shouldn’t from anybody else.

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 1:38 pm
  • “Comparing greenies or methamphetamines (which Hank Aaron admitted to taking) to steroids is just not possible; steroids are far-and-away worse. It’s not even close.”
    I have a lot of issues with this, largely because there’s no real consensus w/r/t how steroids actually affect performance.

    Mark _YF May 7, 2009, 1:39 pm
  • John-YF, you’re using a straw man argument. I never said only Yankee fans think that way. But I *am* saying that most YFs would not think that way unless it provided convenient cover for their team’s steroid woes.
    You can speculate all you like about Manny while he was with the Sox; fact is that no one disputes, including Jason Giambi himself, that he was using as a Yankee. Remember those clutch HRs during the razor-thin 2003 ALCS? Really want to open up that can of worms?
    Let’s not kid ourselves: YFs love this news because it gives them some tenuous ammo to defend the well-documented problems their stars have had.

    Hudson May 7, 2009, 1:42 pm
  • Wow, I guess having my head down at the office made me miss minor news!
    This is a surprise to me, not because I am naive, but because at this point I thought that most guys, particularly those high profile players with a lot at stake but little at risk, would not be taking banned substances. That it is Manny is disappointing, but who harbors any illusions about anyone at this point? I find the arrogance and stupidity of this to be a shock. I wonder what Manny’s “Doctor” has to say. Maybe he’s got the same physician as Jeremy Piven.
    That being said, though we can extend our suspicions back several years, this is a positive test from this year, and if Manny passed previous tests, however flawed they might have been, he passed those tests. This is no evidence of anything but current usage, and we should be careful about making this about any other season or any other player for that matter.

    SF May 7, 2009, 1:42 pm
  • Wow. That Jason Bay trade keeps looking better and better.

    Paul SF May 7, 2009, 1:43 pm
  • YFs love this news
    I think this is the wrong term for what Yankee fans might be feeling, if we should be so arrogant as to generalize about an entire fan base. I think there must be some Yankee fans who are glad that those SFs (most not at this site) who relished in badmouthing the Yankees for baseball’s larger problem are eating some crow, even if this positive test has nothing to do with 2004 and 2007 and exposes no wrongdoing from back them. And who can blame them for that reaction?

    SF May 7, 2009, 1:45 pm
  • Mark-YF: I’m no pharmacologist, but don’t “greenies” etc. alter mood/perception, whereas drugs like steroids and HGH actually build muscle and promote faster recovery from healing?
    To that extent, I do see a clear and qualitative difference between the two: The former might give a minor boost to a player whose team plane got in at 3 am and has to play an afternoon game, whereas the latter confers a significant boost in power and endurance.

    Hudson May 7, 2009, 1:45 pm
  • I have a different way of thinking about this whole PED thing…legalize it. Just like any other kind of prohibition, you just force the user to the black market.
    Steroids, HGH, etc. if prescribed by doctors and used appropriately would really only serve to help these athletes recouperate, right? I mean, ARod on or not on steroids/Boli/whatever the hell he did is still going to be able to hit a baseball…the rest of us aren’t. NFL players were on steroids for decades and still come up positive on tests yet no one cares?
    Am I crazy here? Would it be so bad for guys, like Pettitte admitted, to go to the team physician and get a prescription for HGH to help overcome an injury? I don’t see the problem?

    krueg May 7, 2009, 1:46 pm
  • “Everybody did it” is both inaccurate and a facile excuse.
    And I completely agree with this statement, Hudson, 100%.

    SF May 7, 2009, 1:46 pm
  • “No, not everyone. Lots of players, maybe even a majority.”
    Except the Sox right Hudson?
    Love,
    The Straw Man
    Remember, you started with the generalizations. Plus since you are allowed to put words in YF’s (that’s YF, not Yankee fans) than I will go ahead and put a few in yours. Generalizations are fun aren’t they?

    John - YF May 7, 2009, 1:47 pm
  • if Manny passed previous tests, however flawed they might have been, he passed those tests.
    Barry Bonds would agree with you. Should we give him the benefit of the doubt too?
    There’s no evidence of past usage of Manny, but to believe anything else is ignorance. He most likely took them while he was in Boston too.

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 1:47 pm
  • “Everybody did it” is both inaccurate and a facile excuse.
    I’m not using it as an excuse, I’m using it as the argument for NOT giving Manny the benefit of the doubt. You yourself admit that probably a majority of players took performance enhancing drugs at one point or another. I’m agreeing with that assertion, and saying that based on that Manny probably took them while in Boston.
    “Everybody did it” is just the shorthand for “a large amount, probably a majority, of players took steroids during this era.”

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 1:52 pm
  • He most likely took them while he was in Boston too.
    We have been consistent at YFSF to try to not to speculate about users. In this case, and I am not interested in defending Manny frankly, we know he failed a test this year. Though suspicions might now be tremendously raised, supposing that we “know” what he did five years ago is of little use. Manny has been banned. Was he habitual? Who knows. I am not going to make any accusations I can’t substantiate. I look as negatively on that as I do those who want to accuse A-Rod of continuing to juice while with the Yankees in the absence of any evidence but his prior use. This will only lead to downwardly spiraling accusations by one fan base about the other, as I see it.

    SF May 7, 2009, 1:52 pm
  • John, I can see you’ve completely lost your head over this topic.

    Hudson May 7, 2009, 1:53 pm
  • “Everybody did it” is just the shorthand for “a large amount, probably a majority, of players took steroids during this era.”
    It sure is, and you prove Hudson’s point: it’s lazy. And inaccurate. But it attains “truth” because of the headlines and the star power of those who used. It isn’t true, it’s an easy generalization, just like Hudson says.

    SF May 7, 2009, 1:53 pm
  • Ath, call me crazy for thinking that “everybody” and “a majority” are distinct and specific terms, rather than synonyms.

    Hudson May 7, 2009, 1:54 pm
  • Love,
    The Straw Man

    I knew it!!! Darryl Strawberry reads YFSF!!!!

    SF May 7, 2009, 1:54 pm
  • Crap, crap, crap. No time to get in deep on this.
    Manny has plausible deniability, although that might involve gullibility on our part. Gammo reported that the Red Sox front office is shocked at this story.
    On the topic of NYY and PEDs, add these together: Contract year production, Yankee willingness to spend BIG $. Doesn’t necessarily inpugn Yankees, but explains the connection. Player did the roids with another team, Yankees impressed, sign the player, find out later he did roids.
    Is this how it happened? Dunno. But it is very plausible.
    Gotta get back to work.

    I'mBillMcNeal May 7, 2009, 1:56 pm
  • I am not going to make any accusations I can’t substantiate.
    I’m not making an unsubstantiated accusation. I’m saying that in light of Manny testing positive today, he probably took them while he was in Boston. Please do not take this as a statement of fact on my part, because it’s anything but.

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 1:56 pm
  • Barry Bonds would agree with you. Should we give him the benefit of the doubt too?
    When Manny shows up on steroid calendars used as evidence in Federal drug cases involving steroids then we can talk.
    I hate false equivalencies, with a passion.

    SF May 7, 2009, 1:56 pm
  • SF, that wasn’t me who said that???

    John - YF May 7, 2009, 1:56 pm
  • Sorry, I just felt like you guys were nitpicking an off-hand comment I made. I do not literally mean “every single individual in Major League Baseball has taken performance enhancing drugs”, just that most people probably did and that based on that we cannot give Manny the benefit of the doubt.
    I even cited examples (Ortiz, Pujols, Jeter) where I do not think they use steroids.

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 1:58 pm
  • I’m not making an unsubstantiated accusation. I’m saying that in light of Manny testing positive today, he probably took them while he was in Boston.
    Joba Chamberlain probably drives drunk every night he is at home in Nebraska. I am not making an unsubstantiated accusation, I’m saying in light of him having been arrested once for drunk driving in Nebraska, he probably does this whenever is in Nebraska.
    See the problem here?

    SF May 7, 2009, 1:58 pm
  • Not yet …
    Lastly, This is the problem with MLBs policy: It leaves too much open for speculation. We deserve more specifics.

    I'mBillMcNeal May 7, 2009, 1:58 pm
  • SF, you state that “We have been consistent at YFSF to try to not to speculate about users” and that you are “not going to make any accusations I can’t substantiate.”
    If this is really YFSF.org’s philosophy, I reiterate my initial question/complaint: Why did YF’s post about this story jump, in the second sentence of a four-sentence story, quickly to the inflammatory conclusion that:
    “For Sox fans who had any great illusions about the cleanliness of their series champ teams, this should serve as a tonic.”
    So much for “not speculating” and not making accusations that can’t be backed up…

    Hudson May 7, 2009, 1:58 pm
  • No, I had hit “reply to” then I got distracted, wrote a different comment, and never changed that.

    SF May 7, 2009, 1:59 pm
  • Maybe Manny took meth he bought from Joba’s mom …

    I'mBillMcNeal May 7, 2009, 1:59 pm
  • I see your point on this.

    SF May 7, 2009, 1:59 pm
  • Anyone know what the rules of appeal are in this case? Would an appeal have already been filed and now the suspension comes forward because the appeal has been denied?

    walein May 7, 2009, 2:00 pm
  • And my initial speculation is right again…drumroll…sexual enhancement drug

    walein May 7, 2009, 2:01 pm
  • this is bullshit

    walein May 7, 2009, 2:01 pm
  • Kreug’s suggestion got lost in the rest of the argument:
    [L]egalize it. Just like any other kind of prohibition, you just force the user to the black market. Steroids, HGH, etc. if prescribed by doctors and used appropriately would really only serve to help these athletes recouperate, right?
    The problem as I see it (among other things, like the example this sets for young athletes) is that legalization of this type would not eliminate abuse of PEDs. Indeed, authorizing limited “legitimate” medical uses for baseball stars would arguably make it a lot easier for people to cover up abuse of those substances by providing easy/false cover.

    Hudson May 7, 2009, 2:03 pm
  • SF, it seems like your main argument is “the only definitive evidence is that he tested positive this week, so we cannot apply this to past seasons.” I’m not saying anything definitively (because we have almost no information at this point), but that if Manny tested positive for steroids this week then he most likely took them while he was in Boston as well.
    Again, I’m not saying anything definitive, just trying to keep fellow Sox Fans from grasping at the hope that nobody in Boston took steroids. He most likely did; I find the hypothetical situation of Manny suddenly taking steroids for the first time now, in 2009, far less likely than the alternative.

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 2:03 pm
  • Considering he drove drunk once, that means that he probably HAS driven drunk before. Not necessarily every night, but certainly more than just that one time he got caught.
    Manny spent eight years in Boston. Now that he’s tested positive once, he probably took them at least once during the near-decade he spent on the Red Sox.

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 2:05 pm
  • However, two sources told ESPN’s T.J. Quinn and Mark Fainaru-Wada that the drug used by Ramirez is HCG — human chorionic gonadotropin. HCG is a women’s fertility drug typically used by steroid users to restart their body’s natural testosterone production as they come off a steroid cycle. It is similar to Clomid, the drug Bonds, Giambi and others used as clients of BALCO.
    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4148907
    Any one who’s supposing this is an isolated incident should ask themselves how they reacted to similar news of Bonds, Sheffield, Giambi and then A-Rod.
    The other 103 names, please.

    Rob May 7, 2009, 2:10 pm
  • Any one who’s supposing this is an isolated incident should ask themselves how they reacted to similar news of Bonds, Sheffield, Giambi and then A-Rod.
    Agreed. Again, there’s no definitive evidence Manny took steroids before this… but to believe otherwise is just plain ignorance. SF, your DUI example is very flawed, and skews what I’m saying.

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 2:11 pm
  • just trying to keep fellow Sox Fans from grasping at the hope that nobody in Boston took steroids
    Appreciate the concern, Ath, but at this site I don’t think any of us are under any illusion that the 2004 and 2007 Sox were drug-free. I have my own suspicions. I will not go there at this site.

    SF May 7, 2009, 2:12 pm
  • I would disagree that legalization would instantly lead to abuse as this is the main point of any prohibitionist, even in the face of evidence to the contrary. (not to say you are, just saying)
    These substances are prescribed by doctors everyday for ordinary people. They have medical benefits when it comes to healing…why not let pro-athletes use them as they are intended. What’s the difference between a cortisone shot and HGH/Steroids? Would we prefer to keep handing out bottle after bottle of addictive pain killers?
    To the point of methampetamines being less harmful than PED’s, I would disagree with that statement as well. If you are talking about taking PED’s under a doctors supervision, they would absolutely be less harmful. The abuse comes from the prohibition and having to go to a trainer or guy in the gym to get and use the stuff, right?

    krueg May 7, 2009, 2:12 pm
  • I’m not talking about their harmful effects, I’m talking about their ability to enhance performance. Agree completely with pretty much everything you said, Krueg.

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 2:14 pm
  • “Joba Chamberlain probably drives drunk every night he is at home in Nebraska. I am not making an unsubstantiated accusation, I’m saying in light of him having been arrested once for drunk driving in Nebraska, he probably does this whenever is in Nebraska.
    See the problem here?”
    SF, I think you’re misreading the logic. The argument is more along the lines of: “the time Joba got caught drunk driving was probably not the first time he ever drove drunk.” Just as “The time a PED user got caught was probably not the only time he ever used a PED.”

    Mark _YF May 7, 2009, 2:14 pm
  • Any one who’s supposing this is an isolated incident
    Who has argued that this is an isolated incident? In my case, I am simply arguing against rampant speculation about when and how he did drugs in the past. This applies to A-Rod, whoever, I don’t care. No double standards. It is as frustrating to me when a Sox fan starts yelling “I bet A-Rod is STILL using”, on what basis is this useful discussion?
    I am much more interested in discussing the issue of legalization, or of general baseball policies, than I am of speculating about whether or not someone may or may not have used on July 23rd, 2002.
    This is why I think we need to refocus: right now I anxiously await breathless suppositions about why Manny pushed the traveling secretary last year, and that isn’t interesting baseball discussion.

    SF May 7, 2009, 2:18 pm
  • That’s a reasonable read on it, Mark. I still don’t see the gain in this discussion.
    And I refuse to be labeled a Manny apologist or someone who has their head in the sand. Hardly. I am interested in moderating this discussion (as a Mod) away from open-ended suppositions about when guys did drugs and how often they did them, it’s a vacuum for useful exchange. Manny nailed for PEDs. Isn’t that pretty much all you need to know at this point?

    SF May 7, 2009, 2:20 pm
  • Taking “greenies” would increase performance I would say…maybe not on as grand a scale as HGH/Steroids but still. Flying across the country after extra innings, getting in late, playing the next day? Pop some meth and you are good to go!

    krueg May 7, 2009, 2:21 pm
  • manny is now available for trade in our YFSF fantasy league. just send me over an offer.

    sf rod May 7, 2009, 2:22 pm
  • I’m still a little confused as to what’s going on, because if what Yahoo! is reporting is just a cover story…well, it is an ingenious one. Manny being randy, and just being idiotic.
    http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ys-ramirezsuspension050709&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
    We’re all just spinning and speculating here for now, I think. The only real subject to be certain of is that Manny was a complete idiot one way or another, and that if he actually still has the nerve to opt out, the Dodgers should either let him go or forfeit whatever remains of their franchise’s self-respect that remained after the Brooklyn move. This much has nothing to do with steroids, and everything to do with the caution athletes must take in the post-steroids climate.

    Hit Dog May 7, 2009, 2:23 pm
  • Hudson – I was out for a bunch of this discussion but I find it your response to this a bit disingenuous considering that you blasted YFs for their response to Arod testing positive about 2 months ago. (also on a different team) Sure its easy to concoct situations in which one can imagine Manny not doing steroids in Boston then the minute he changed teams started but I think the chances of that are “thin” as you put it.

    sam-YF May 7, 2009, 2:24 pm
  • This is really just one big giant rehash of the argument that took place after the A-Rod revelation, but I will point out again that 103 positive tests in 2003 out of roughly 1,000 ballplayers means that 10 percent of players were using. Let’s triple the number, assuming most players who were using stopped once they knew testing was coming.
    That means a third of baseball was using PEDs. Not “everybody,” not even “most.” A third.

    Paul SF May 7, 2009, 2:27 pm
  • Someone already got to Wikipedia!
    “In the world of performance enhancing drugs, hCG is increasingly used in combination with various anabolic androgenic steroid (AAS) cycles. It is included in some sports’ illegal drug lists. When AAS are put into a male body, the body’s natural negative-feedback loops cause the body to shut down its own production of testosterone via shutdown of the hypothalamic-pituitary-gonadal axis (HPGA). It is a common misconception that estrogen will be elevated post cycle. Generally, estrogen is below a normal level after a cycle.[11] High levels of AASs that mimic the body’s natural testosterone trigger the hypothalamus to shut down its production of gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GnRH) from the hypothalamus. Without GnRH, the pituitary gland stops releasing luteinizing hormone (LH). LH normally travels from the pituitary via the blood stream to the testes, where it triggers the production and release of testosterone. Without LH, the testes shut down their production of testosterone, causing testicular atrophy.
    In males, hCG mimics LH and helps restore and maintain testosterone production in the testes. As such, hCG is commonly used during and after steroid cycles to maintain and restore testicular size as well as endogenous testosterone production. However, if hCG is used for too long and in too high a dose, the resulting rise in natural testosterone will eventually inhibit its own production via negative feedback on the hypothalamus and pituitary.
    E.G. Manny Ramirez”

    SF May 7, 2009, 2:28 pm
  • I agree wholeheartedly with what Sam says.
    than I am of speculating about whether or not someone may or may not have used on July 23rd, 2002.
    Nobody is being specific here SF. I’m just saying that Manny was in Boston eight years. Odds are he took steroids while he was there. It sucks, I’m damn-near depressed about it, but it’s a reality that most SF’s are going to have to accept. You may not like talking about this, but it seems like most of us do, especially when such talk was rampant when ARod tested positive a few months ago.

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 2:31 pm
  • And on that note, I’ll be away from my desk for the next three hours. Just when things were getting good!

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 2:33 pm
  • You can’t legalize steroids… it can put you in danger for your life. You can’t give out the idea to kids/prospects that u need to take a chance on ur life to get into the majors.
    Jesus christ man…

    Russell May 7, 2009, 2:33 pm
  • I think before YFs start crowing about how Sox are on same level as Yanks, we should find out what it actually is that he took, and whether or not it matches what A-Rod injected into his ass. It’s already being reported it was not an anabolic steroid…if that’s confirmed, no, I don’t think A-Rod and Manny would be on the same level.

    beth May 7, 2009, 2:35 pm
  • You may not like talking about this
    It’s not about liking or not liking it. It’s about substantive baseball discussion. Again, what kind of bizarrely naive and sheltered person thinks that guys try PEDs “once”? We went through this with Andy Pettitte, right? Yankee fans say “hey, he told the truth, what an honorable guy!”, Sox fans say “typical Yankee cheaters”. Neither contributes to a broader understanding of baseball or how they might solve these problems.
    When I see that A-Rod did steroids, when I see that Manny tested positive for a banned substance (unidentified at this moment, though rumors abound about what it was), my instant reaction isn’t “gee, one in a million shot he got caught the one time he tried it”. But I don’t see the point in belaboring this point either, and that is what these types of discussion turn into, all over the place.

    SF May 7, 2009, 2:37 pm
  • Amazing, Deadspin seems to have been on this story and gotten scooped, perhaps. That would have been a coup for the blogosphere!
    http://deadspin.com/5244230/the-case-of-manny-not-being-manny

    SF May 7, 2009, 2:40 pm
  • I don’t think you can make the claim of only a third so assuredly, Paul. I’m sure there were a bunch of players who stopped using, knowing the tests were coming. I’m also sure a number of players beat the tests, through masking agents, designer drugs that stay ahead of the tests, by lucking out and being in a down portion of the doping cycle, false negatives, and the use of undetectable stuff like HGH.
    What if they only caught ten percent of dopers?

    Mark _YF May 7, 2009, 2:49 pm
  • Like many people, I think there were users on the Sox’ championship teams. I mean, we know a couple of them, right? (Gagne, haha)
    I still want final word on what Manny took before I go all “STERIODSHGH!!!111!!1!!” That’s my problem with a lot of people’s line here, and indeed I agree with Hudson that the initial post did have a somewhat inflammatory message, which I guess is understandable given all the sh*t that’s happened in the recent past.
    But I also wouldn’t be terribly surprised if he was a user. Oh well, just another brick in the wall. And I agree with Paul that the trade last year (which I approved of on paper at the time, though not emotionally) is looking better and better.

    Devine May 7, 2009, 2:49 pm
  • I don’t think A-Rod and Manny would be on the same level.
    I can’t believe people are still trying to parse this. Pettitte is a better example. If you thought “Wow, the Yankee Championships are tainted now” then you have no room to argue otherwise for the Sox. Pettitte got caught long after the years in question, and yet how many SFs, or YFs, here held back “interpreting” backwards?
    A cheater is a cheater is a cheater. Manny used PEDs. It’s time to accept that fact and further assume that any ballplayer of the last 20 years certainly could have.
    And those other 103 names, please.

    Rob May 7, 2009, 3:08 pm
  • Evidently he took a female fertility drug, which was one of the drugs Giambi used to ‘restart’ production of testosterone.
    You would only take that if you had been on steroids previously.
    It’s not worth deluding yourself. He took steroids while on the Red Sox.
    At least we can finally do away with the ridiculous asterisks next to Yankee Championship years.

    AndrewYF May 7, 2009, 3:12 pm
  • Well, they are legal if prescribed and supervised by a doctor they have many health benefits. Again, if you take steroids/HGH/whatever Russell, you aren’t making the majors…
    I’m talking about in the case of healing in case you only picked out the one or two words you disagreed with from my posts.

    krueg May 7, 2009, 3:13 pm
  • Leave us out of this… ;)

    krueg May 7, 2009, 3:13 pm
  • Just to clarify…HGC and ALL “sexual enhancers” can be used post-steroids. THey can also be used for exactly what they are for…legally mind you.

    walein May 7, 2009, 3:21 pm
  • Andrew YF–
    Because Giambi used it FOR steroids doesn’t mean that the millions of men who use it to get a hard-on are using it because of steroids. There’s a reason you see so many goddamn commercials on TV for the myriad versions of “,male enhancement” drugs.

    walein May 7, 2009, 3:23 pm
  • It’s also used in some cases to up sperm count if someone is trying to have a child.

    walein May 7, 2009, 3:24 pm
  • As a fan of the game, I’m shocked and disappointed at this.
    The only “joy” I get out of this news is that Sox fans will maybe shut up (not necessarily on this site, but as a YF, you see it everywhere) about tainted championships, tainted MVP’s, etc.
    Maybe I’m a little naive to still be shocked, especially after ARod. So it goes.

    Lar May 7, 2009, 3:26 pm
  • Somehow I don’t think some folks here would be giving a Yankee – say Posada – the benefit of the doubt. And worse, many SFs would be merciless in assuming the negative and taunting the player.

    Rob May 7, 2009, 3:27 pm
  • In other news, ARod is supposedly playing tomorrow night:
    http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090507&content_id=4605338&vkey=news_nyy&fext=.jsp&c_id=nyy
    I really hope he makes a difference. I’ve been SO miserable!!!

    krueg May 7, 2009, 3:28 pm
  • krueg May 7, 2009, 3:31 pm
  • This is embarrassing. Manny on a ladies fertility drug. come on it covers up steroid use. Now the 2 WS the Red Sox won is now suspect. He carried both teams alot. Unlike Aroid, he never won while using steroids. The 2 championships in my opinion should have an asterisk next to them b/c I will not honor it. Real shocking.

    Mo May 7, 2009, 3:33 pm
  • Mo’s logic is air-tight!
    No more baseball! It’s over!
    Is Beckim still on that American Team?

    walein May 7, 2009, 3:35 pm
  • We would have to put an asterisk next to everyone’s world series wins wouldn’t we?

    rootbeerfloat May 7, 2009, 3:46 pm
  • At least we can finally do away with the ridiculous asterisks next to Yankee Championship years.
    There are no asterisks next to Yankee Championship years, except in the mind of a breed of stupid anti-Yankee-ites. I am so sick of the vocal minority tarnishing entire fanbases, from both sides. Most Sox fans I know (and hey, my friends are no geniuses!) don’t look at Yankee championships as anything but legitimate, and I assume my Yankee friends look at the Sox’ equally legitimately. Or at least I would hope so. This idea that the Yankees have been tarnished as illegitimate is because a vocal minority of yahoos has made themselves heard. But please stop with this idea that the Yankees have been made “victims” by the general population. It’s just untrue.

    SF May 7, 2009, 3:56 pm
  • From ESPN:
    A source with intimate knowledge of steroids told ESPN that a male athlete usually uses HCG after a cycle of steroids because steroids often shut down the testosterone-making ability of the testicles. HCG restores their capacity to make testosterone. The source said that some males may use HCG in lieu of steroids also. HCG by itself can provide a substantial boost in the body’s own testosterone, and this may provide some performance-enhancement benefits.
    Ramirez had scheduled an appeal and MLB officials were in Los Angeles to meet with him on Wednesday, a source familiar with the matter told ESPN. Ramirez, however, withdrew the appeal Wednesday and accepted the suspension. Under the union agreement, the drugs major league players test positive for are not released by MLB or the players’ union.

    Mark _YF May 7, 2009, 4:06 pm
  • Will be hilarious if it’s boner pills, fertility enhancers, or Mary Jane, but eh, he probably used.

    Devine May 7, 2009, 4:11 pm
  • Bill Simmons (who I actually really enjoy) is taking this really hard: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/090507&sportCat=mlb.
    He goes a bit too far in outlining his “nightmare scenario” seven years from now, imagining a conversation with his son about The Steroid Era. But he does nail a passage that pretty much sums up my feelings on the whole Steroid Era:
    “You don’t understand what it was like to follow baseball before you were born. There was a strike in 1994, and the World Series was canceled. Everyone hated baseball. Then Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa started hitting homers, and the balls started flying out of the park, and it was so much fun that everyone looked the other way. We didn’t care that these guys were practically busting out of their skin or growing second foreheads. We really didn’t. All the cheating made baseball more fun to watch. We were in denial. It was weird.
    Then, Barry Bonds hit 73 home runs in a season, and that was like the turning point. We realized that things had gone too far. We blamed him for cheating and looked the other way with dozens of other guys who might have been doing the same thing. Brady Anderson hit 50 homers in 1996; we didn’t care. Bret Boone had 141 RBIs in a season; we didn’t care. Big Papi went from 10 homers to 41 in four seasons; we didn’t care. Roger Clemens was washed up, but suddenly he could throw 98 miles per hour and win Cy Youngs again; we didn’t care. Eric Gagne saved 84 straight games and threw 120 miles an hour; we didn’t care. Good players started blowing out tendons that nobody had never heard of; we didn’t care. Pitchers blew out elbow tendons and shoulder ligaments routinely; we didn’t care. This was the deal. They cheated; we pretended they didn’t. It’s really hard to explain unless you were there.”

    Mark _YF May 7, 2009, 4:37 pm
  • “right now I anxiously await breathless suppositions about why Manny pushed the traveling secretary last year”
    Clearly, roid-rage. (sorry sf, couldn’t resist)
    As for Hudson’s “The question remains, why is it that more prominent Yankees have been fingered than any other team’s stars? You can speculate that it’s some kind of selective media interest, or one could very reasonably claim based on the available evidence that using was more prevalent in the Bronx.”
    This ignores a third – and I’d argue at least as plausible – explanation: both the Mitchell and media investigations pursued most aggresively the initial leads they uncovered which were in the Bay Area (BALCO) and New York (Radomski, Grimsley, etc.). You get to the suppliers and you’ll uncover a web of users that is densest in the areas and regions where they worked.
    Of course selective media interest does also play a role (how else would one characterize Roberts’ pursuit and exposure of only one name of 103?). But to pretend that use was greater in New York, Oakland, and San Francisco simply because those are the only places where the light has really been shown on suppliers to date – especially when players move around as much as they do in the modern era – is a pretty convenient burying of one’s head in the sand.
    nice to see everyone again…

    IronHorse May 7, 2009, 4:42 pm
  • > didn’t care
    I am interrupting my vacation to continue to not care.

    attackgerbil May 7, 2009, 4:48 pm
  • Did Bob Ryan ever give Pettitte the benefit of the doubt?
    http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2009/05/07/just_another_act_in_the_manny_sideshow/
    Meanwhile, he started this column:
    http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2006/10/02/problem_now_oversized/
    with:
    “Thanks to the cheaters, everyone in baseball now is presumed guilty until proven innocent.”
    Except Manny.

    Rob May 7, 2009, 4:57 pm
  • how else would one characterize Roberts’ pursuit and exposure of only one name of 103?
    Easy, in three steps:
    Greatest Player Ever, perhaps?
    Plays in NYC, where she has tremendous connections?
    Used steroids.
    That’s a hat trick, and it has nothing to do with selective media interest in the Yankees. It has to do with interest in A-Rod and, of course, circumstance.
    Oh, and WELCOME BACK IRON HORSE!!!!!

    SF May 7, 2009, 4:58 pm
  • Holy shit, it’s IronHorse! How you been man?
    Mark, that’s a wonderful piece by Simmons, even if he does go a bit too far. Great read, really touching.

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 5:03 pm
  • That’s a hat trick, and it has nothing to do with selective media interest in the Yankees.
    I’m not buying it. Somehow if she uncovered Jeter’s name it wouldn’t have been just as good (to her and the other mediots)?
    All I know is 104 names were implicated but only one was named. I’m still waiting on the other 103, regardless of the teams or names. Why won’t the media finish what they started?

    Rob May 7, 2009, 5:09 pm
  • Somehow if she uncovered Jeter’s name it wouldn’t have been just as good (to her and the other mediots)?
    Not sure I understand. If she had uncovered Jeter’s name it would have been gold too – he’s an ICON. That has to do with New York, but that’s circumstance. I don’t understand this victimization complex. I’ve lived in New York for 15 years, and A-Rod transcends New York, frankly, he was a superstar in Seattle and his mythicism started with 252, not when he got to New York.

    SF May 7, 2009, 5:27 pm
  • Whoa, whoa, whoa, you just characterized the pursuit of A-Rod in “three easy steps”.
    For Jeter, only two apply. So then it’s about her NY connections and the steroids. If she got Vlad Guerrero’s name would it have landed with the same effect as Jeter? Of course not.
    The Yankees are the biggest brand in the game (worth 1.5 billion if you believe Forbes). I’m not one for victimization, but you’re playing it naive if you think the team doesn’t (didn’t) matter. Manny is perhaps the best right-handed hitter of his generation, but because he never played for the Yankees this won’t land with the same thud. And while I usually like Bob Ryan, he’d be singing a different tune had Manny signed with the Yankees.
    All I know is we’re still waiting on the other 103 names…but at least we know A-Rod only tips 15% at Hooters.

    Rob May 7, 2009, 5:38 pm
  • sad, but hardly surprising news…it’s morbidly funny [is that possible?] that it’s manny being exposed, given his role as a key cog in the sox champ years, and they did want to keep him by the way, albeit on their terms…but, what is funny, is the sox fans’ reaction to this news, since they were so quick to indict certain yankees as “cheaters” with great glee…i can feel the breeze from the furious backpedaling re. manny…”he’s not our guy, [uh, anymore]”…he was clean when he was with us…no proof, right?…uh huh, that’s true for now….at least this gives you guys something to discuss for the next couple of days, though i suspect it gets swept away quickly, and we can return to more stimulating topics, like what arod did in high school, and the empty seats at the new rather ugly yankee stadium…finally, the argument that it’s apparently not steroids, and that somehow doesn’t make it as bad, is bogus, and ignores the fact that the suspected drug is banned, period, and earned him a 50 game suspension…add to that, manny has apparently decided not to appeal…hmmm…can’t wait until he writes his book… ;)

    dc May 7, 2009, 5:41 pm
  • “…no proof, right?…uh huh, that’s true for now…”
    to clarify this comment by me, what we’ve seen for most of these stories is that the details trickle out over time…it may be that nothing more surfaces relative to manny, but it’s jumping to conclusions at this point to try to say with any certainty one way or the other…

    dc May 7, 2009, 5:47 pm
  • I’m amazed by this attitude of “if he used this spring, he HAD to be using his whole career.”
    Obviously if he was using, he had to start sometime, unless you think Manny’s mother was injecting him since birth. But when did he start?
    Manny claims he was clean in fifteen previous tests. Was he tested more times than that? Was he using substances that were difficult to detect? Was he using before it was illegal? We probably won’t ever know.
    But the notion that every PED users starts in high school and never stops is just silly. Obviously there is a continuum of users, some earlier and more egregious than others. Some people have the money and opportunity to get their hands on the stuff from a young age, some don’t. Some have the willpower and talent not to use it when they have the opportunity. Some might not start until a teammate says, “Hey, you should talk to my guy, this stuff is amazing.”
    A relative of mine never smoked until he got to college, was up late studying for an exam, and a friend said, “Hey, let’s take a cigarette break.” He got hooked. Maybe if that friend hadn’t pulled out a pack, he wouldn’t have started. Get the point? Manny could have started at *any* point in his career, and those who are “sure” he used before the past year (or five years ago, or ten years ago) are talkin’ out of their needle-marked posteriors.
    In any case, I just can’t help noticing how we don’t hear any YFs mentioning Manny’s time with the Indians. Was he using then? Is anyone outraged if he did? Or is this just about pointing the finger at SFs and saying, “Your rings are tarnished, too!”

    Hudson May 7, 2009, 5:47 pm
  • Goldman nails it:
    No, Manny, actually it’s your doctor’s responsibility too, and I fully expect that you will be suing him. Thing is, we know Manny won’t be suing, because then this tissue-paper excuse would collapse. For that matter, he would also appeal the suspension, submit medical records as proof of his contention, and make every effort to stay on the field and clear his name. That’s not what he’s doing. Rather, he’s meekly taking the rap.
    http://pinstripedbible.mlblogs.com/

    Rob May 7, 2009, 5:49 pm
  • Manny claims he was clean in fifteen previous tests.
    Interestingly that period doesn’t include the 2003 tests.
    Somehow Hudson, like Ryan, I don’t think you were looking to give Pettitte, and his Yankee years, the benefit of the doubt.
    No one, except Manny, can be sure when he started using (like A-Rod, Pettitte, Nomar, etc). But, really, it just doesn’t matter. The last twenty years, and every one who played, is tainted. I don’t think this will be our last reminder of that sad fact.

    Rob May 7, 2009, 5:54 pm
  • I’m amazed by this attitude of “if he used this spring, he HAD to be using his whole career.”
    I dont think this really sums up the attitude. For me its more like if he got caught now, the most likely scenario is that he has been using for years. As I said above, sure one can concoct situations in which a guy didnt use, etc but what they say themselves means nothing as almost none of these guys tell the truth about theur drug use. If your SF glasses are too warped to see this thats your prerogative. I highly doubt you would be singing the same tune if he was a yankee given your criticism in the past of Yankee users.
    “I just can’t help noticing how we don’t hear any YFs mentioning Manny’s time with the Indians.”
    This site isnt called YFIF, it wouldnt surprise me one bit if used then but we dont have a regular dialog going with indian fans do we?
    “Or is this just about pointing the finger at SFs and saying, “Your rings are tarnished, too!””
    Damn right it is, at least to fans like you who have been pointing their finger at the yankees saying the same thing for years. We can go comb the archives if you want examples.

    sam-YF May 7, 2009, 5:56 pm
  • this won’t land with the same thud
    This won’t, because Manny isn’t A-Rod, he isn’t on the covers of GQ, he isn’t the greatest all around player of the last 50 years, maybe more. On the other hand, this was blasted across the NY Times’ website today, still is. It’s a major story. You can bet your ass this would have been (might still be) the subject of a book by a sportswriter at some point.
    Because someone plays in New York that makes them more visible. But they aren’t targeted because they play in New York. The idea that A-Rod is a story, a big one, because he wears pinstripes, well that overlooks about 90% of the reason why he is a story, and places the 10% at the top of the list. It’s misplaced prioritization.
    And dc, can you stop it with these generalizations about Sox fans backpedaling? This site is not the place for that, almost nobody here has asserted that the Sox were immune, were innocent. Most all of us are tremendously disappointed, and have our own suspicions about what transpired in the past. I choose not to go there, but that is my own choice and should only be seen in those terms: I don’t choose to publicly speculate.

    SF May 7, 2009, 5:59 pm
  • I am not at all sure Manny used previously – who can be? I do find it strange to think a guy would start using after strict testing is introduced but not for the vast majority of his career when it was not and steroid use was rampant, but Manny is also someone who has always swam against the tide so who knows.
    As far as not talking about his time with the Indians, I think that’s saved for the YFIF blogs – this is YFSF.

    IronHorse May 7, 2009, 6:01 pm
  • I hesitate to go near Goodwin’s Law (YFSF’s version of Godwin’s), but Andy Pettitte was praised by a fair number of Yankees fans, in the City and around these parts (check the archives) for his admission of guilt in taking HGH, and for what appeared to me to be a rather uninspiring “apology”. Manny has apologized here, in more blunt fashion, though without a specific anecdote like Pettitte provided. Why did people so quickly believe Andy’s “I only did it twice” statement so readily, but Manny’s statement is met with “he had to be doing it his whole career”? Pettitte didn’t fess up until he was implicated, so the circumstances around both his and Manny’s revelations are similar.
    I can’t come up with a good reason, other than to tie it to Pettitte’s anecdote, which makes the story compact. I won’t touch the race thing. But it’s as equally implausible that Pettitte was being truthful, considering the company he kept for so long and how that company followed him (or how he followed that company) around. Why is Manny subjected to this speculation so quickly, when we don’t even have all the facts?
    I think this sums up why I don’t like speculating like this: it can only lead to circular arguments with no good answers and everyone gets shot in the process.

    SF May 7, 2009, 6:08 pm
  • At least we can finally do away with the ridiculous asterisks next to Yankee Championship years.
    This is a statement that insults the intelligence of the regular commenters on this blog, none of whom has ever said there should be an asterisk next to any championship (heck, even Babe Ruth tried PEDs, if we want to go that far).
    Whoa, whoa, whoa, you just characterized the pursuit of A-Rod in “three easy steps”.
    Rob, I have an idea. How about responding to SF’s point instead of nitpicking the verbiage. Derek Jeter is a Hall of Famer, beloved by Yankee fans more than anyone since Mantle. If Selena Roberts had been writing a book on Jeter and gotten sources saying he had used steroids, I guarantee you she would have broken that, too. Replace “best player ever” with “all-time great,” and you have the exact same three steps with essentially the same meaning. And somehow I think you know that.
    Roberts is a former NYT columnist (a bad one, but one nonetheless), so I would be surprised if she had a ton of Angel sources ready to spill the beans about Vlad or a ton of Boston sources ready to leak her stories about Manny. It had to do with NY only so far as she was a NY writer doing a book about a Yankee player — who, by the way, did steroids.
    FWIW, I still expect the names on the 03 list to leak out one by one. I’m surprised we haven’t had another leak already.

    Paul SF May 7, 2009, 6:09 pm
  • I think Manny used. I think Ortiz used. Big time. I don’t think Schilling used. I don’t think Pedro used. Bellhorn, Millar, Varitek, Nomar, even Bill Simmons thinks they used. I don’t think Wake used. If he did he should get his money back. It sucks. It sucked when we found out about all the others. It really sucks for some of the better players of our times who had to play against all the cheaters. How good would they have been. Some will only be remembered as mediocre. Many didn’t get as much money as they could have because they were considered merely average. For those Sox fans who don’t think half the players on the Sox were using, you’ve got your head up your a$$. It really sucks. For the honest players. For the fans. For the kids.

    YanksFanSince76 May 7, 2009, 6:12 pm
  • It sucks. It sucked when we found out about all the others. It really sucks for some of the better players of our times who had to play against all the cheaters. How good would they have been. Some will only be remembered as mediocre. Many didn’t get as much money as they could have because they were considered merely average.
    See, this is where an editor would be useful. Why all the other stuff? Your comment would be eloquent and meaningful if left as above, but you couldn’t resist, could you? That’s a shame.

    SF May 7, 2009, 6:19 pm
  • Of course you are right. But I’m only a Yankee fan. Still bitter. I’m only human.

    YanksFanSince76 May 7, 2009, 6:22 pm
  • But they aren’t targeted because they play in New York. The idea that A-Rod is a story, a big one, because he wears pinstripes, well that overlooks about 90% of the reason why he is a story, and places the 10% at the top of the list. It’s misplaced prioritization.
    Yankee attendance, even after four rings, went up 1 million in the two years after A-Rod joined the Yankees. A-Rod pre-Yankees would have been like McGwire and Bonds. With the Yankees, it’s a whole nother story. Let me put it this way: How many books were written about him prior to 2004? Since?
    And somehow I think you know that.
    And so, again, how does that make them different from McGwire or, moreso, Bonds? Sorry, but I think you guys are being disingenuous if you think the uniform means nothing to the story. Yes, the Manny story will get play now. He was the best hitter of his generation. But it will die down much more quickly than A-Rod. For instance, they’ll both have had about the same amount of time off. But when Manny comes back he’ll get much more of a pass (even as he’s already getting one – see Bob Ryan). The NY mediots, in contrast, have been salivating this whole time waiting to get another crack at A-Rod. Roberts book just gives them the cover to do so.

    Rob May 7, 2009, 6:22 pm
  • Or more accurately in line with what SF said:
    Sorry, but I think you guys are being disingenuous if you think the uniform means only 10% of the story.

    Rob May 7, 2009, 6:29 pm
  • “It’s also used in some cases to up sperm count if someone is trying to have a child.”
    In fact, sources from TLC tell me that Manny and his wife Kate are trying to have children via fertility treatment specifically to have a show on the network called “Manny and Kate Plus 8″.
    God, I’d love that show.

    Nick-YF May 7, 2009, 6:41 pm
  • “This ignores a third – and I’d argue at least as plausible – explanation: both the Mitchell and media investigations pursued most aggresively the initial leads they uncovered which were in the Bay Area (BALCO) and New York (Radomski, Grimsley, etc.). You get to the suppliers and you’ll uncover a web of users that is densest in the areas and regions where they worked.”
    Hey, IH, how are things? Basically, this strikes me as the most plausible reason for why so many Yanks have been linked to PED use. Of course, since we don’t know the true extent of use, even during the peak years (and nobody actually knows for certain what those peak years were in the first place), we really don’t how the game “spread” throughout the game. A lot of people feel it was like an epidemic, with early users like Canseco proselytizing to others who then spread it to other clubhouses. So if we’re following that idea it’s very possible that it was an issue in almost every clubhouse. But maybe not. Maybe it was a problem or whatever you want to call it in a few clubhouses. One of the hard things to understand for me is how much of a “community” mlb is, and how information travels around that community. So Hudson could be right about the argument he’s emphasized throughout the steroid discussion :”one could very reasonably claim based on the available evidence that using was more prevalent in the Bronx”. I guess that’s certainly logical, but it becomes less likely if we believe that a lot of players were using over the last decade or two. But then again, who the hell knows the true nature of steroid/PED use during this time?

    Nick-YF May 7, 2009, 7:00 pm
  • close source to Manny says it was used as sexual enhancer not to help with steriods, Manny may also sue the doctor

    WAY...SF May 7, 2009, 7:10 pm
  • Lugo triples. Chipping away at my hatred for him.

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 7:18 pm
  • I am very disappointed, and a little surprised (I really did think that Manny, hitting savant that he is, hadn’t used – but then again, given how much we hear about the effort that goes into being Manny, can it really be surprising that he used every possible advantage?). But I’m not devastated.
    Chances are, Manny took stuff while he was in Boston. Like many have said, it’s naive to think he only started taking stuff now. But we already knew that plenty of people on the championship teams were taking stuff (and plenty of people on other championship teams this decade and the decade before). That’s the way the steroid era worked. I’ve been very reluctant to condemn the results of entire teams because it was so prevalent (YFs, while I am a somewhat sporadic commenter, I am pretty sure I haven’t been claiming the Yanks were unusually tainted in the past, so I think this is consistent).
    The list of people about whom steroid revelations would be personally devastating for me is, realistically, one: Pedro Martinez. Ortiz would suck, but at the same time it wouldn’t terribly surprise me, so in a way I’ve already prepared myself if that ever turns out to be true. But Pedro… Pedro was, over his peak, the greatest pitcher ever to play the game. And that, above all else, I do not want to be tainted.
    Also: 2004 was still the greatest sports-watching moment of my life, and always will be. Nothing’s going to change that.

    Micah-SF May 7, 2009, 7:19 pm
  • Manny & Kate Plus 8? Holy shit that would be GOLD.

    Atheose May 7, 2009, 7:20 pm
  • close source to Manny
    my Skepticometer just blew up.
    Gamer up top.

    SF May 7, 2009, 7:25 pm
  • What did Scott Boras know and when did he know it?

    SF May 7, 2009, 7:28 pm
  • Hmmm, watching Sportscenter and not one shot of Manny in Red (of about 20) while every shot shows A-Rod in Stripes.

    Rob May 7, 2009, 7:30 pm
  • “close source to Manny says it was used as sexual enhancer not to help with steriods”
    orgy partner Scott Boras. My guess.

    Nick-YF May 7, 2009, 7:31 pm
  • How many shots of A-Rod playing for the Mariners? Manny in Indians uniforms?
    Aren’t the Dodgers and Stripes their two current teams?

    SF May 7, 2009, 7:35 pm
  • Buried in the CNN news articles today was a story about a politician wanting to have “sexual enhancer” commercials removed from TV.
    http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2009/05/07/am.costello.ed.ads.cnn?iref=24hours
    Sometime in the afternoon Manny gets popped for taking “woody” medicine…..
    I smell conspiracy.

    Rob SF May 7, 2009, 7:55 pm
  • Holy Sh!t.
    I thought this post was joke, until I saw the headline on ESPN.
    Damn.

    SoxFan May 7, 2009, 9:18 pm
  • For real its a broken penis thats it.Next it will be brett farve wants to ….

    WAY...SF May 7, 2009, 9:50 pm

Leave a Comment