MVP = Mean, Vindictive and Petty

Bob Klapisch’s column adds some insight to the Yankee clubhouse, which seems not nearly so harmonious after the much-ballyhooed SI article:

[A]ll Giambi was doing was filling a conversational void created by the one Yankee who could have — and perhaps should have — confronted A-Rod.

That would be Jeter, of course. If there’s anyone who could make Rodriguez understand the difference between greatness and greatness under pressure, it’s the guy batting almost .400 with runners in scoring position. But anyone hoping for a Jeter-Rodriguez summit shouldn’t hold their breath. The cold war between them is even more pronounced than the one with Mussina. Jeter reportedly has never forgiven A-Rod for the disparaging remarks he made in Esquire in 2001, and as one Yankee official said, "There is no coming back from one of Derek’s grudges. Once you’re gone, you’re gone."

So let me get this straight: Jeter would rather let the Yankees’ reigning MVP struggle through a slump when the team needs him most to settle a five-year-old feud? Love those intangibles!

(Hat tip: Chad Finn.)

162 comments… add one
  • I honestly don’t know what to make of those assertions concerning Jeter’s grudge-holding.
    I’m rather suspicious, the same way I tend to be suspicious of hachet jobs on Manny when he plays most of the games and hits a ton.
    I think it’s pretty clear in either case that Jeter is in the “lead by example” mold than a leader who talks a lot. Even if he and ARod were on good terms, is it in Jeter’s personality to have a heart-to-heart? If this is so, does it therefore follow that Jeter isn’t a good leader?
    I dunno. You decide. I’ll stick with the measureable (I’ve never been a guy to credit Jeter will all sorts of intangibles, so I’m not going to rip him for a lack of said intangibles now).

    Rob (Middletown, CT) September 27, 2006, 3:03 pm
  • On spot, Rob.

    Brad September 27, 2006, 3:08 pm
  • Look. Both the Red Sox and the Yankees have players that the media has humongous crushes on. (Jeter and Papi, in case that needed to be clarified for some reason) The media comes down on Manny, Papi tells them in no uncertain terms to get off his back. The media comes down on A-Rod. Umm. All right. See the difference? Of course, the point can be made that Papi defending Manny did little to help his cause, but Manny’s fragile mental state is much different than A-Rod’s fragile mental state.
    Vocal leader or not, it wouldn’t have taken a heart-to-heart for Jeter to respond to A-Rod questions after losses with: “Look, we just didn’t all have our oars in the water” or some other silly cliche. I believe that would’ve helped to a degree. Deep down, the problem is A-Rod. He’s a stat-monger, his career proves it, and his approach to the game proves it. Yankee players confirm it in the Verducci piece, albeit uncredited. He clearly cares more about himself than the team.
    Jeter can’t change who A-Rod is, but he could certainly have made his life a little more comfortable on the field and when talking with the media. He chose not to. Simple as that. Jeter doesn’t need to talk to A-Rod himself to help, he could be more vocal about the media picking on him only when the Yankees lose.

    Quo September 27, 2006, 3:12 pm
  • Clearly A-Rod is a grown-ass man. He doesn’t need another grown man to tell him how he should act, or when his hits are important, or what color to dye his hair, or when is the proper time to save children from oncoming traffic any more than I need another grown man to tell me my own responsibilities.
    To each his own, but maybe Jeter figured that by saying anything, it might compound the problems (if you can call his numbers a problem?).
    Isn’t it high time to stop treating him as if he’s some kind of kid who needs to be molded into a role character to please those around him? He is who he is, and nothing Jeter could have said is going to change that, and my guess is that Jeter knows that.
    Conversely, maybe Jeter figured that there isn’t too much to say to a guy whos stats dwarf his own in comparison. A-Rod is clearly the better hitter in most seasons, so why does Jeter need to step up for any reason…
    Maybe it’s time to let him be who he is and just friggin accept that, and get off his back. It’s borderline retarded how Yankee fans treat this guy.

    Brad September 27, 2006, 3:24 pm
  • Papi needs Manny. Jeter does not need Arod. I thought it was the coaches job to work with the players. Jeter is not there yet. I think they moved Arod to 2 in the order and jeter to 3 at one point. Does that show anything, Jeter giving up his ‘spot’ in the order?

    Seth September 27, 2006, 3:32 pm
  • When Giambi was awful after it came out that he was a ‘roider, did Jeter sit him down and talk to him? Did Jeter defend him to the press (though I have to say, the press is far nastier to ARod than to Giambi, which in and of itself is pretty disgusting)?
    I don’t recall either of those things happening. I think the “Jeter the leader” thing is overblown… and I think “Jeter the petty grudge holder” thing may be simply made up.
    But none of us really know.

    Rob (Middletown, CT) September 27, 2006, 3:33 pm
  • Jeter needs A-Rod at least as much as he needs Giambi, and he’s vocally defended Giambi in the past.

    Quo September 27, 2006, 3:35 pm
  • But Brad, clearly A-Rod did need someone to at least get on his butt and tell him to shape up (like Giambi and Torre did). Jeter may be the team captain, but while he was leading by example, Giambi actually did something (for once, doing something he hasn’t been called before a grand jury and questioned about).
    The whole incident reflects poorly on A-Rod for sure, and I don’t doubt that he isn’t well liked in the clubhouse, but isn’t it the team leader’s job to ignore that stuff (especially five-year-old comments made when they weren’t even on the same team) and do what’s best for the team? The media and fan criticism, baffling as it was, clearly was affecting A-Rod’s play and hurting the Yankees’ attempt to make the postseason (remember those days when that was in doubt? *sigh*), yet Jeter did nothing.

    Paul SF September 27, 2006, 3:35 pm
  • Speaking of how the media treats ARod versus Giambi… look how many have given Giambi a free pass regarding his comments in the Verducci article! A few people (mostly bloggers) have pointed out that it’s the jackass ‘roider who told ARod to man up and then told reporters he did so, saying all sorts of shit about ARod “not knowing who he is” and whatever. Where is Giambi’s “just shut up” award?

    Rob (Middletown, CT) September 27, 2006, 3:36 pm
  • I can remember when I was a kid hearing all the crappy stuff said about Boggs, and his inability to get important hits. All that crap used to piss me off to no end. The idiots who said that he never had enough RBI’s (even though one AB was always with nobody on base), or that he was nothing more than a stat-collector.
    I think that Yankee fans will feel the same way about A-Rod a few years from now when they have a regular third baseman and not one of the best players to ever be hatched.
    I hope that A-Rod goes 0-for throughout the playoffs. This way, the NY clowns can come down on him in the most predicatble ways, which will cause him to be pushed over the edge, demand a trade, and go onto his brilliant Hall of Fame career somewhere else.
    That wish of mine really has nothing to do with him being on the Yankees, I’m just so damn sick of all the press surrounding his “problems” and his “slumps” and his “hitting”. I just want the Yankees and their fans to revert back to the days when their third baseman is more like a regular baseball player and not a freak of nature that this guy is.

    Brad September 27, 2006, 3:36 pm
  • Maybe he’ll get traded to a team with a SS that has bad range, and the SS will move for the sake of the team. Crazy world that would be.

    Quo September 27, 2006, 3:39 pm
  • “Jeter needs A-Rod at least as much as he needs Giambi, and he’s vocally defended Giambi in the past.”
    I must’ve missed that. Ok, then maybe there is something here.
    “But Brad, clearly A-Rod did need someone to at least get on his butt and tell him to shape up (like Giambi and Torre did). Jeter may be the team captain, but while he was leading by example, Giambi actually did something…”
    And it helped? We know this? I think ARod is the same player he was last year, but for a tiny mechanical flaw in his swing (which has ripple effects beyond the flaw itself). I think he was due to rebound regardless of Giambi’s “intervention.” But Verducci writes his article and makes it look like Giambi’s little speech was the reason ARod came out of his slump.
    Maybe he got over that virus he had. Maybe he just figured something out about his swing. Maybe he just faced weaker pitching…
    Correlation is not causation.

    Rob (Middletown, CT) September 27, 2006, 3:41 pm
  • Jeter doesn’t like A-Rod, that seems pretty much undeniable. He won’t defend him, hell, he won’t even talk about him to the media in any context. That means little in terms of how the Yankees will do in October. That will come down to pitching.
    This story does tear down the myth of the “intangible”, though. In this case, it seems that those “intangibles” are limited in their deployment, particularly when Captain Perfect thinks you’ve been mean to him. On the other hand, I seriously doubt A-Rod would listen to a thing Jeter would have to say; he’d be too busy figuring out how he could report to the mass medai on the heart-to-heart he had with Jeter, and he would probably spend too much time trying to spin it as a sympathetic personal growth story.

    SF September 27, 2006, 3:42 pm
  • “Maybe he’ll get traded to a team with a SS that has bad range, and the SS will move for the sake of the team. Crazy world that would be.”
    Point about Jeter’s selfishness, perhaps. Then again, having seen ARod at 3B for a while now, are we really sure he would’ve been a superior SS to Jeter? I sure seemed that way when the trade was made, but now? I dunno about that. Further, would Jeter have been a good 3B?
    In other words, are we really sure that Jeter at 3B/Rodriguez at SS would have been superior to the current alignment? I’m not.

    Rob (Middletown, CT) September 27, 2006, 3:44 pm
  • are we really sure he would’ve been a superior SS to Jeter
    Yes. Without a doubt.

    SF September 27, 2006, 3:44 pm
  • For the love of God can’t we all just let this story die the sad sorry death it’s been demanding for the past 3 months? It’s the Terry Schiavo of baseball arguments, and ESPN is pulling a Frist by keeping it on life support every other day with bullshit stories that tell us absolutely nothing new or meaningful. Blah Blah Blah. Alex is kind of a shmuch. He and Jeter are not best friends.
    Please move along.

    YF September 27, 2006, 3:45 pm
  • Paul, I understand what you’re saying, and I don’t totally disagree with you. But, what I’m saying is that maybe by just saying anything is more harmful than helpful to him? Maybe Jeter feels that A-Rods ego is too big for him to say anything. After all, the guy has said some stupid stuff about Jeter (and Nomar for that matter) in the past. Maybe, and just maybe, Jeter feels that the guy is the better player (which he is) and opts out of saying anything at all.
    Or, maybe Jeter hates the guy and can’t wait to see him get to the point of hating everything about NY and the media/fans and start ripping the ball all over the place in anger?
    Who knows? Certainly nobody on this site.

    Brad September 27, 2006, 3:46 pm
  • Paul: be very careful how you approach Captain Perfect. If you dare speak negatively of him you might get disappeared by one of our cohorts. It’s funny and a bizarre coincidence – that quote from Klapisch was once said about a certain Yankee blogger:
    “There is no coming back from one of Attackgerbil’s grudges. Once you’re gone, you’re gone”.

    SF September 27, 2006, 3:46 pm
  • YF: always willing to say “nothing to see here” when a story negatively impacts his sweetheart. Were this about a Sox we imagine he’d have plenty to offer.

    SF September 27, 2006, 3:48 pm
  • SF,
    Even considering that Jeter has clawed his way up to roughly average and ARod’s fielding has declined?
    Hey, I agree that ARod was the better SS prior to 2004. I just don’t remember how much better. Lemme check something out… brb.

    Rob (Middletown, CT) September 27, 2006, 3:49 pm
  • Oh, and YF: how can you shush a post that has gotten 17 quite substantial comments?! What are you trying to do, discourage traffic?

    SF September 27, 2006, 3:50 pm
  • Rob: it’s also about value out of a position. A-Rod was all-world at shortstop, much less all-world at third.

    SF September 27, 2006, 3:52 pm
  • AG is ferocious! Have YOU ever been attacked by a geribl? It’s scary as hell.
    Anyway, YF, the topic might be old and talked to death, but this post I’m pretty sure already has more posts than the last week’s worth combined. Bring on the Jeter-bashing!

    Paul SF September 27, 2006, 3:52 pm
  • Do we know what broke Arod out of his slump?

    Seth September 27, 2006, 3:53 pm
  • I’m not sure it tears down the whole intangible myth, in that well into the future the myth is still going to exist. Does it make Jeter seem petty? Maybe. Or, perhaps, it demonstrates a degree of integrity on the part of Jeter. Couldn’t you spin it that way as well? Is it petty to turn on someone who turned on you? Or is it honest not to want to like someone who you believe has shown their true colors to you? And do we really know the details of their falling out? Perhaps, more things went down between them than we know. Supposedly A-Rod had a discussion with him after those comments in which he says things were cleared up. But they weren’t, and maybe in A-Rod’s tone deaf way, he actually made the problem worse.

    Nick-YF September 27, 2006, 3:53 pm
  • I have a question –
    Would, if given the chance, do Yankee fans embrace the trade of A-Rod to the Sox for Manny straight up?
    Clearly both players enjoy radical amounts of success out of spite. Manny probably goes to RF in the Bronx, and A-Rod goes right back to SS where he assumes his role as the greatest one to ever live.
    I think, and I really hate to say it, that it’s a no brainer for both organizations and if it was ever put on the table should be seriously considered. I’d do it in a nanosecond.
    I really think that deep down, both players want that situation anyhow. I think that after the past three years of trying to get Boston to trade him, and A-Rod’s time well spent on the back page of the Post both players would love to spite the organization.

    Brad September 27, 2006, 3:54 pm
  • By BP’s rate stat, ARod was between 102 and 109 from 1998 through 2003.
    Jeter graded out horribly, varying from 81 to 91 in that span of time. However, starting in 2004, he improved…
    98, 108, 101 (so far this year).
    This, of course, lends itself to the argument that ARod at 3B made Jeter better. Then again, Brosius was good too and Jeter graded out terribly in those years, so whatever…
    Doh, have to do work, brb.

    Rob (Middletown, CT) September 27, 2006, 3:55 pm
  • I just feel like we’ve been here before. I’ve been hands off of the Manny/Edes deal for similar reasons. I just don’t know what more life there is here. But feel free to knock it around, if it spins your wheel.

    YF September 27, 2006, 3:55 pm
  • Brad: the Yanks outfield is full for the forseeable future. Look for Manny to replace Garret Anderson in CA, and Sheff to replace Manny. My best guess.

    YF September 27, 2006, 3:57 pm
  • YF – we have been here before. Every single damn year. Maybe the names are different and maybe the state of the two teams if different, but we’re here nonetheless….
    However, I will say that the A-Rod stuff is like nothing I’ve ever seen before. It’s almost like people are trying to break him -ala Barry Bonds with his kid outside of the park giving sarcastic praise to those that have ruined his life.

    Brad September 27, 2006, 3:58 pm
  • Reminds me of the drunken agreement by Tom Yawkey to trade Williams for DiMaggio straight up. Woke up the next morning and called it off, for good reason.
    In this case, isn’t A-Rod younger? And we know he’s the better hitter. Seems like it would be a win for the Sox.

    Paul SF September 27, 2006, 3:59 pm
  • Brad, in purely baseball terms (ignoring the personalities, the media, etc), the Sox would win that trade given the way the teams are designed and the available talent at the respective positions. The Sox would be able to slot A-Rod in at SS (a HUGE improvement over the current guy), and look to the free agent market for players like Sheff or Carlos Lee. Meanwhile, Manny would be destined for the DH slot in the Bronx given the overload of talent in the outfield. The problem is that the DH slot is a rotating position required for half the Yankees line-up. And this doesn’t even factor in their respective ages.

    Nick-YF September 27, 2006, 3:59 pm
  • Brad, who would play 3b for the yankees?
    and they would have a logjam in OF
    If Brandon Wood can move to 3b, that would be an interesting prospect for arod trade talks.

    Seth September 27, 2006, 3:59 pm
  • He was always a superior SS when he was a SS. Could he still be now, with all the mental blocks, etc? Who knows. But in 2004? A team of A-Rod at SS and Jeter at 2B (I would guess he’d have been moved to 2B, possibly even CF rather than 3B) would’ve been strong up the middle. Not sure what was available at 3B, but it probably could’ve outhit/played the Cairo/Enrique tandem the Yanks had at 2B that year.

    Quo September 27, 2006, 4:00 pm
  • So, you’d keep Melky Cabrerra instead of putting a still very capable and instant Hall of Famer out there?
    Good move, YF.

    Brad September 27, 2006, 4:00 pm
  • Seth –
    Capable third base guys are much easier to get than guys like Manny. Just like it’s much easier for Boston to get another outfielder than find someone like A-Rod.
    ESPN would eat this for lunch… Can you imagine?

    Brad September 27, 2006, 4:01 pm
  • “Or, perhaps, it demonstrates a degree of integrity on the part of Jeter.”
    HAHAHAHAHA!!!! You’re hysterical. Or deluded. Or both. This is kind of like the Sox fans who wanted to spin Papi’s original comments about Jeter’s MVP candidacy as evidence that Ortiz thought Jeter was a great player. Which they clearly weren’t. Sometimes the simplest answer is the correct answer: Jeter and A-Rod don’t like each other, and Jeter feels no need to talk to A-Rod about anything off the field. He has no interest in helping Rodriguez actively.
    On the flip, he may also be correct in thinking he has nothing to offer Rodriguez that can possibly help. Knowing A-Rod’s self-involvement, that could be 100% spot on. All this shows is that MLB clubhouses are complex places, rife with egos, and that even beloved, sweetheart captains aren’t immune to flights of ego and solipsism. Jeter’s not special in this way. And that’s a blow to many idealistic Yankees fans, even though it may not, in the end, mean much of anything.

    SF September 27, 2006, 4:03 pm
  • Nick, it’s not like Manny can’t play the outfield as well as most, and I would assume that if Manny was the DH the Yankees could have worse problems. He is capable of playing a tight OF very well.

    Brad September 27, 2006, 4:03 pm
  • Every clubhouse on every baseball team on earth is a complex place, SF.

    Brad September 27, 2006, 4:05 pm
  • What Sox fan with a pulse would turn an A-Rod for Manny deal down? Seriously.

    SF September 27, 2006, 4:05 pm
  • the whole Jeter was selfish for not moving positions when A-Rod arrived argument is annoying. Rodriguez agreed to the trade knowing that he’d play 3b. The Yanks didn’t even approach the Jeter about moving positions (if we’re to believe Cashman at the time, and I guess it’s a matter of faith but I believe him). The same thing would have happened in Boston if, during Nomar’s prime, the Sox were able to get A-Rod. I seriously doubt management would have approached their home-grown superstar about moving (even though A-Rod at SS was more valuable than Nomar) positions. It just doesn’t happen.

    Nick-YF September 27, 2006, 4:06 pm
  • Every clubhouse on every baseball team on earth is a complex place, SF.

    Brad September 27, 2006, 4:06 pm
  • I think the KC clubhouse is probably pretty simple: “We suck. Let’s play baseball.”

    Paul SF September 27, 2006, 4:07 pm
  • “Every clubhouse on every baseball team on earth is a complex place, SF.”
    No doubt, Brad.

    SF September 27, 2006, 4:07 pm
  • I just can’t see the Sox giving up Manny only to replace him with Sheff. Sheffield is at best, not a good clubhouse guy. The same could be said for Manny. The difference is, Manny clearly enjoys the people he’s around, and Sheffield clearly enjoys Sheffield (this sounds bad). Since they’re both bad outfielders at this point, and Manny’s the better hitter, isn’t he worth the extra $7M? Now, should Manny command a fool’s ransom from Analosangelesforniaheim, fine. But I don’t want Sheff. Unless we can collect all the guys who are bad for the clubhouse and tank their performances purposely to get traded, and the World Series just turns into a contest for that next year…then maybe.

    Quo September 27, 2006, 4:07 pm
  • Ramirez is only possible 3b free agent. Next best is Pedro Feliz.
    for OF you have Soriano, Lee, Pierre,M Cameron, Bonds also Sheff, Edmonds,T Hunter and Dye (on options) not horrible options.
    the rare 3b/of combo Huff is also an FA

    Seth September 27, 2006, 4:08 pm
  • Jeter has been cold to A-Rod since their falling out which was initiated by nationally-published comment. Jeter thinks A-Rod is a phony as result of the comment and the ensuing apology. He doesn’t want to be friends with phonies. He’s wiped his hands of anything to do with A-Rod. Meanwhile, he still is professional toward A-Rod (does he ever disparage him or talk about his struggles publicly). What’s the problem here? He has integrity I tell you. The man is incapable of being untrue to himself.

    Nick-YF September 27, 2006, 4:10 pm
  • Seth – moving Manny to the Bronx automatically allows them to shop the hell out of Cabrerra and whomever else they have waiting for that position.

    Brad September 27, 2006, 4:10 pm
  • But Nick, Nomar was an above-average SS, defensively, and far above average offensively. A Nomar/A-Rod swap was much less measurably obvious than A Jeter/A-Rod swap. If Jeter was thinking about pure baseball, what’s best for the team, he would have volunteered to move positions for A-Rod. But it’s unrealistic to think that human beings are that detached from their own ego. Jeter didn’t do it because he didn’t want to and because he doesn’t like A-Rod, he wanted to stay in his position. That was his right. But it wasn’t because he’s noble or perfect or always thinking about the team: he stayed put because he wanted to stay put.
    But I think you are remembering incorrectly: if A-Rod had been moved to the Sox, the Sox had a contingent deal moving Nomar to the White Sox for Magglio Ordonez, and thus there would never have been a positional confusion.

    SF September 27, 2006, 4:11 pm
  • Also Quo, I think if Manny goes anywhere for real, that Money is going straight into another big hitter, and his name will most likely not be Gary Sheffield.
    If Manny goes anywhere, expect huge trades in the weeks to follow to replace him as best as possible.

    Brad September 27, 2006, 4:12 pm
  • Wow, Magglio Ordonez on the Sox. I had forgotten all about that part of the trade. That would be nice…

    Paul SF September 27, 2006, 4:13 pm
  • how friggin bored are we all today?

    Brad September 27, 2006, 4:14 pm
  • Meanwhile, he still is professional toward A-Rod (does he ever disparage him or talk about his struggles publicly)
    Nick: I think you are doing what you accused some SFs of doing during the “defend Papi” stuff a couple of weeks ago. I think Jeter has come off as quite an egotist, and quite a stubborn and selfish jerk during this whole A-Rod thing. Jeter is a God in this town: if there’s one guy who could assist in defusing the A-Rod shenanigans it’s him. He chooses not to, and as such the Yankees are faced with this “distraction”, if that’s what you want to call it. Jeter could certainly do more to soften this din, but he chooses not to, and I can’t help but think there’s intent there.

    SF September 27, 2006, 4:14 pm
  • True that. Also, Carlos Lee, if you’ve seen him play in Texas, looks like Manny in the OF: mental mistakes and misjudgements everywhere. Whichever team lands him (I hope it’s not the Sox, and don’t think it’ll be the Yanks) better have plenty of DH ABs for him.

    Quo September 27, 2006, 4:15 pm
  • I was thinking in terms of hypotheticals. I remember in reality that Nomar was on his way out of town. But, even if you factor in Nomar’s defense being better than Jeter’s, the notion still holds true. A-Rod would have given the Sox more value at SS than Nomar would at SS. That was just a fact of life during the time of the great 3. A-Rod added more value at his position than either Jeter or Nomar. In other words, a team with A-Rod at SS and Nomar at 2b would have been better than the opposite. The same in the case of A-Rod in Jeter. This is in purely baseball terms. But the major point of my post is that Jeter was never asked to move because in 9 out 10 cases the home-grown superstar who is beloved by the home fans does not move for the newcomer. And management followed that tradition. He was never asked to move.

    Nick-YF September 27, 2006, 4:15 pm
  • I’ve mentioned this before, but trading Manny and replacing him with Gary Sheffield to me would be unconscionable. It would signal the end of any good feelings I have toward the Theo Epstein regime post-2004.

    Paul SF September 27, 2006, 4:17 pm
  • I agree, Paul…
    Man do I ever friggin agree. Outside of Paulie O, he’s one of my most disliked players of ALL TIME.

    Brad September 27, 2006, 4:18 pm
  • 53 comments and YF wanted this discussion truncated. For shame!

    SF September 27, 2006, 4:19 pm
  • Nothing hurts more than someone bashing your girlfriend right in front of you.
    I kid.

    Brad September 27, 2006, 4:20 pm
  • I say force Manny into retirement and bring back Bob Zupcic.
    (I just like typing “Zupcic!”)

    SF September 27, 2006, 4:20 pm
  • Paul, if you had A-Rod and Sheff on the roster next year instead of Manny, the Sox would win more games.
    Replacing Manny with Sheff implies a reallocation of resources to other areas of the team in need of improvement. It might actually be good for the Sox.

    Nick-YF September 27, 2006, 4:20 pm
  • A few things:
    1) I think it’s rather likely that DJ actually believes he’s a good defensive SS. He’s wrong, but he likely honestly thinks he’s a good defender.
    2) Nomar, by the time ARod became available, was no longer a good defender. Nomar’s last year at a rate of 100 (average) or better was 2002. His best defensive years were not as good as ARod’s. Having said that, he was far better with the glove than Jeter in the same time period.
    3) ARod for Manny? No fuggin’ way. Moronic. ARod is younger, healthier, works harder, runs the bases much better, fields a more difficult position decently, and hits nearly as well. Any Yankee fan accepting that trade should be slapped silly.
    4) We are definitely bored.

    Rob (Middletown, CT) September 27, 2006, 4:21 pm
  • It should be a coach’s decision to move players positions, not the players. SF, could he have stayed because that is what the coaches thought was the best decision? We remember Matsui as SS of the Mets. He got moved.
    If there was something wrong with Jeter playing SS and Arod at 3b it would be fixed by now.

    Seth September 27, 2006, 4:21 pm
  • Rob, you leave out the trur meaning of swapping the two – it makes everyone involved happier.
    Do you honestly belive that Manny is the same player in NY as he is in Boston? He does a complete 180 out of spite, and the same would probably be said for A-Rod.

    Brad September 27, 2006, 4:24 pm
  • In either case, you have a highly paid slugger who will not be productive for the Sox for many more years. But Sheffield 1. is BALCO-ized, 2. has a wrist injury (much worse for your hitting ability than knee tendinitis), and 3. would be here for just one year (versus Manny’s contract through 2008, I think).
    Perhaps the Sox could use those resources and get both Zito and the pitcher from Japan. Absent that, I’d be leary. A-Rod and Sheff > Manny. Of course, but in what Dali-esque world are we living in which the Sox acquire both Sheffield and A-Rod while the Yankees get only Manny??

    Paul SF September 27, 2006, 4:24 pm
  • Paul, we’re living in a late September during a slow work day world. It’s more neo-realist than surrealist.

    Nick-YF September 27, 2006, 4:26 pm
  • Brad, what’s a complete 180 from .320, 40 HR, 140 RBI per season?

    Paul SF September 27, 2006, 4:26 pm
  • No question A-Rod was a better SS than Nomar. I mean, A-Rod was the BEST SS EVER. Which is kind of the point. When a team acquires the best player ever at his position, it should do what it takes to keep him at that position, or it should at least expect a player to understand that they should give up that position for such a player. Jeter likely didn’t want to move for a whole host of reasons, some thought-through and some (it has to be admitted by any reasonable person) selfish. He’s nothing unique, which in the end is the point. He’s not “Captain Perfect”, he’s not a humanitarian, he’s not a UN peacekeeper, or the founder of Habitat for Humanity: he’s a superstar athlete with incredible skills, a massive ego, and a sense of entitlement. And that’s probably part of what makes him so good. But we can’t and shouldn’t sugarcoat these things.

    SF September 27, 2006, 4:26 pm
  • Seth, there’s a difference. Matsui was proving to be not a great player in either facet of the game. Meanwhile, Reyes’ offensive game was suffering because he was playing a somewhat unfamiliar position. Not quite the same situation, especially because the Mets were not that good during that period.

    Quo September 27, 2006, 4:26 pm
  • Brad,
    Do you actually believe the NY media would be nicer to Manny than the Boston media? I mean after a brief honeymoon period, anyway.
    Get outta here! No way. Sooner or later (sooner) the “Manny doesn’t hustle” stories would come out. Manny isn’t like Jeter. Manny fakes injuries… etc. And he’d react just like he does now.
    And you think the Boston press would be all sweetness and light for ARod? LOL!!

    Rob (Middletown, CT) September 27, 2006, 4:27 pm
  • Paul, I was talking about his drive, personality and all the other stuff that has caused him to be a target for so long in Boston – definitely not his numbers, which when you look at them, are disgusting.

    Brad September 27, 2006, 4:28 pm
  • Maybe Jeter and A-Rod should go quail hunting…

    SF September 27, 2006, 4:28 pm
  • Do you think he was approached to move positions? Essentially, that’s my point. It was never up to Jeter to move positions. The question of egotism does not apply in that case. And, despite appearances, I am not saying Jeter’s not an egotist. I just don’t see this as a case where it’s showcased.

    Nick-YF September 27, 2006, 4:28 pm
  • Yes, I do think that, Rob. I think that it would make both players happy, and that’s where the change would take place with both of them.
    Or maybe I just needed something to talk about to get off the A-Rod kick fest.

    Brad September 27, 2006, 4:30 pm
  • “Brad, what’s a complete 180 from .320, 40 HR, 140 RBI per season?”
    Excellent question. Ditto for ARod’s stats (even this year) as a 3B. He’s the best hitting 3B in the league, and his defensive is probably roughly average. Yet the sky is falling, because this year he’s struggled in the clutch.
    Look up DJ’s stats last year in “close and late.” If memory serves, they were flat out bad.
    This whole “trade Manny” and “trade ARod” stuff is absurd. It’s made up by media people whose livelyhoods depend on being able to get people to read their stories… and thus there are going to be some tall tales written.

    Rob (Middletown, CT) September 27, 2006, 4:31 pm
  • quail hunting….now that’s funny.

    Brad September 27, 2006, 4:31 pm
  • Yeah, so Jeter and A-Rod. What losers, huh?

    Paul SF September 27, 2006, 4:32 pm
  • And Jeter would hit a dying quail. Ba-dum-dum-tish.
    Ok, hopefully that joke is so bad it’ll finish the thread.

    Rob (Middletown, CT) September 27, 2006, 4:32 pm
  • I simply cannot imagine that it NEVER came up in a single conversation. To me that would be an indication of severe negligence on the Yankees’ part, or an indication that they think Jeter is such a fragile personality that they wouldn’t dare ask him without major implications (can’t see that one, nope). Or it is an indication that they knew the situation with he and A-Rod was beyond personal repair (can’t see that one impacting their on-field strategies either). So I have no idea if they asked him, but I find it very difficult to believe that it wasn’t discussed with him ever. I think that’s it’s naive to think it never came up in any fashion at any time.

    SF September 27, 2006, 4:32 pm
  • For all we know, Torre (who also thinks DJ is God’s gift, btw) didn’t want to move him either.

    Rob (Middletown, CT) September 27, 2006, 4:34 pm
  • Tonight’s lineup, btw:
    Johnny Damon CF
    Derek Jeter SS
    Bobby Abreu RF
    Alex Rodriguez 3B
    Jason Giambi DH
    Gary Sheffield 1B
    Hideki Matsui LF
    Jorge Posada C
    Robinson Cano 2B
    Chien-Ming Wang RHP
    is the monster all us Yankee fans have been dreaming about. Provided Giambi’s wrist is better and Sheff’s screaming line drive single last night means his timing is back.
    Our #9 hitter is hitting .342. Mein Gott.

    Rob (Middletown, CT) September 27, 2006, 4:36 pm
  • So Torre is an enabler (to use Edes’ word)?

    Paul SF September 27, 2006, 4:36 pm
  • SF, the Yanks don’t always operate in the best interests of their baseball team (eg. Tony Womack, Jarret Wright and Carl Pavano). It’s naive to think this organization has always been rational.

    Nick-YF September 27, 2006, 4:36 pm
  • Cano is batting 9th. Nuff said.

    Nick-YF September 27, 2006, 4:37 pm
  • “So Torre is an enabler (to use Edes’ word)?”
    No. Torre doesn’t use fancy modern defensive metrics, without which a person might honestly believe DJ is a good defender.

    Rob (Middletown, CT) September 27, 2006, 4:39 pm
  • Or, heck, Nick — Bernie Williams. I know some YFs have criticized the Sox for not being loyal to their beloved stars, but I think we all would have chipped in last year and paid Terry Francona to stop playing Kevin Millar and Bill Mueller every day with Kevin Youkilis on the bench…

    Paul SF September 27, 2006, 4:39 pm
  • Williams certainly falls under that general category, although he’s not nearly as bad as the Tony Womack decision. He was brought back to fill a particular and limited role and also out of loyalty to a VERY long and distinguished Yankee career.
    Bringing him back as an everyday player in the field would’ve been truely awful. Thankfully, they got Damon. ;)

    Rob (Middletown, CT) September 27, 2006, 4:41 pm
  • Come on, Nick! At any point during A-Rod’s move to the Yanks, Jeter could have gone to see The Cashman and told him that, for the sake of the team, he should move to 2B or CF. You think Cashman would have said “no, no Derek, how wonderfully kind of you to offer but we’re not doing that”? Um, no.
    People who hold grudges are ridiculous. People who hold grudges in a such a public, petty way are even more ridiculous. I don’t think Jeter should have had a sit-down with A-Rod or anything like that, but it may have helped if he’d responded to media questions by saying something like “he’s our best player and he’s growing through a slump. He’ll be back to his best soon; in the meantime, get off his back.” I think the sychophantic NY media might have listened and it may have made Alex feel all warm and gooey inside, thus helping his recovery process.
    If Jeter truly was a team man, he’d have done that a better A-Rod=a better Yankee lineup) and put his stupid, jealousy-fueled sulk to one side.

    Sam September 27, 2006, 4:51 pm
  • Sam, a Yankees fan with some serious cojones. You are risking banishment with your questioning of Mr. Sweetjetes, I hope you know!

    SF September 27, 2006, 5:23 pm
  • How are you guys sure Jeter would have improved had he moved to 2b or CF or anywhere and his offense not suffer a bit.
    Cashman probably went to Torre before the deal to which Torre probably responded (without speaking with Jeter) we would love to have alex, but he would need to play a different position. Then both Torre and Cashman had the conversation with Arod and his agent. Jeter is not to blame on this one.

    Seth September 27, 2006, 5:23 pm
  • But he’s still to blame for doing nothing to keep the media heat off one of the members of his clubhouse — of which he is the captain, if I remember correctly.

    Paul SF September 27, 2006, 5:25 pm
  • I thought he released Driven to get the media attention back on himself. I think that was in a string of like 15 Arod Ks in the last 10 games. See, the captain is good for something.
    Jeter is a baseball player, not a PR rep. Lets try to remember this.

    Seth September 27, 2006, 5:30 pm
  • All baseball players are PR reps, Seth. They are constantly in the public eye. It’s just some are more competent at it than others. Jeter does not strike me as incompetent. He knows his power over the sycophantic New York media, and what that power entails, but he has chosen to do nothing with it when it comes to the A-Rod situation. Considering he is the captain, and as such has a certain responsibility to lead and protect the members of his clubhouse, I find that willfull silence curious.

    Paul SF September 27, 2006, 5:36 pm
  • Seth, Jeter is a baseball player. And a good one. I would think part of his job as team captain would be somewhat to be a PR rep. That or be present and talk to the players on his team that are struggling. He did neither. Honestly, if I were YFs, I’d think that would be part of earning his $20M. I hope for his sake, Jeter sees all this commotion (not on here, I’m sure, but from the media) and realizes that he has made a mistake in not dealing with this situation in one way or another.
    How hard would it have been to create this semi-Hallmark moment: “Alex. I don’t like you. Probably never will. And honestly a lot of people don’t. It’s the way you carry yourself and talk about your…nevermind. The point is. We’re behind you. We all want to succeed, and we need you to succeed. If we hold up that WS trophy at the end, it’ll be because we all contributed. I hate you, but we need you big guy. Don’t listen to the media. They hate you too. But I promise, the other guys will love you, and I will pretend to, if you help us to WS rings.”
    I think the whole point of Paul posting this at all, is that hey, Jeter isn’t a saint either. Just as we found out about our Big Papi a couple weeks ago, which YFs so enjoyed pointing out (not all, but definitely plenty). They both made mistakes, and more was/will be made of both situations than probably should. The fact that Jeter has kept silent makes his mistake easier to rectify, actually.

    Quo September 27, 2006, 5:42 pm
  • I think it’s pretty clear that A Rod and Jeter, fro the beginnings of their relationship were a competitive two-some. I doubt that Jeter, regardless of his “feelings” towards Alex, would be in any position to “speak” with him concerning his “play.” That’s like telling your high-school buddy how to do his job…you just don’t ever feel comfortable doing that.

    walein September 27, 2006, 7:16 pm
  • Sam, you’re calling Jeter selfish for not volunteering his position to A-Rod! If the team doesn’t approach him, why would he even think about volunteering changing positions? You think he’s aware of range factor stats? You think he knows about VORP? Question: Someone is hired on at your company who at his previous company did what you do. He’s hired on in another capacity. Do you volunteer to trade your position with him given that you like your current role? Certainly, his inaction (as a choice) can be ascribed to his having an ego (and as far as I can tell anyone who makes a choice has an ego), but is that really your standard for selfishness?
    And onto the notion that Jeter’s doing this because he holds a grudge. How the hell do you, SF, Paul or anyone else know that he’s holding a grudge? Even if you believe that A-Rod’s Esquire comments were the point where they stopped being friends. Is there a possibility that A-Rod’s apology just didn’t strike Jeter as sincere? Or that in the subsequent years that have followed the comments both A-Rod and Jeter have done there part not to repair the friendship? Why do you assume it’s all one-sided, that it’s merely a matter of Jeter forgiving A-Rod? Because sources tell those ever reliable beat reporters that it’s like that? SF provided the Ortiz situation as a foil for my supposed rationalization of Jeter’s (supposed) non-support of A-Rod. But whereas Ortiz EXPLICITLY said things that were selfish and demeaning toward Jeter, Derek has said nothing. You have to construct elaborate psycho-dramas that possibly do not exist. The fact is you really don’t know whether A-Rod and Jeter hate each other, the character of their relationship, that Jeter is being “mean, petty and vindicative.” It makes a clever acronym but it’s grounded in innuendo and hearsay. During the Ortiz issue, people just had to read what you he said.

    Nick-YF September 27, 2006, 8:23 pm
  • Interesting thread. I wish I had hopped in earlier.
    Couple of points:
    I agree completely that ARod would definitely have been a better short defensively.
    There is no evidence I have seen that would show that Jeter and ARod have a dysfunctional relationship; they just go to work each day and do their individual best to get the job done in spite of the fact they probably don’t like each other. They also probably don’t dislike each other either. It looks like indifference to me, especially on Jeter’s part. One of them is smart enough not to talk about it and add fuel to a press that’s hungry for conflict in lieu of man-love, even if by omission he appears to be saying something. To adapt one of my favorite expressions, stay silent and let them think there is an issue, or open your mouth, remove all doubt and cause one. So they ain’t buddies. Whatever. That Brokeback send-up of the two of them posted on the net a while back is still funny, and they still win games.
    RobCT/Nick: Sorry, I didn’t mean to steal your observations about the line for my gamer post. I had not read your comments yet. This is the lineup fans have been waiting for since the Abreu trade, and that Cano bats ninth and it actually makes a bit of sense is bizarre. However, I think Joe should let him lead off right now to have a shot at catching Mauer.
    SF/Paul: Thanks for the vote of confidence. Gerbil power! You’d be ferocious too if you had to eat all your food in pellet-form.

    attackgerbil September 27, 2006, 8:32 pm
  • Nick: you’re being an ostrich on this one. Jeter clearly dislikes A-Rod – there’s enough evidence/lack of verbal or even perfunctory PR support for his teammate to spell that out. Not sure why that’s so difficult to confront. It’s like you have built up Jeter to be incapable of professional jealousy or egomania, which is a standard staple of almost any workplace, sports or otherwise. Factor in these egos and the environment of MLB, and it’s inarguable that this friction exists between Jeter and Rodriguez, and it’s not all on A-Rod, which seems to be the logical extension of all this reflexive Jeter defending. As you say, that doesn’t necessarily affect his performance (or A-Rod’s either), but that doesn’t mean the feelings don’t exist. The fact that you think it’s only valid to go off on-the-record words spoken to the press is simply convenient, in my opinion.
    You’ve been snowed by the cult of Derek, and it shows. These guys aren’t perfect.

    SF September 28, 2006, 6:48 am
  • SF, distill what I’ve said. I haven’t denied that Jeter doesn’t like A-Rod. I don’t really know the character of their relationship. Nor do you, even if Bob Klapisch and unnamed sources in the Yankees clubhouse state that he does. Really, my argument is with the idea that Jeter is being mean, petty and vindictive. You’re snowed by the your dislike of the Yankees and the man.

    Nick-YF September 28, 2006, 6:55 am
  • I do not dislike Jeter at all. That’s you making an assumption. I like plenty of mean, vindictive, and petty people.
    Seriously, I am only observing that many YFs give Jeter a ton of room, for obvious reasons. But he isn’t the mythical figure you all make him out to be, and many YFs have blinders on w/r/t this. This situation definitely shows some of his egotism.

    Sf September 28, 2006, 8:49 am
  • Ah, I see. “All” YFs make Jeter out to be mythical. I friggin’ hate it when people make that sort of generalization, especially after a thread during which people repeatedly acknowledged various faults in the man.
    I don’t think he’s a mythical figure. But this Klapisch story is based on the same sort of questionable sourcing, assumptions and such that hachet jobs usually are. That doesn’t make it false. But it’s worth taking it with a grain of salt.
    I think you’re just excited about the possibility of tearing down a strawman (the strawman being that all Yankees fans think Jeter is perfect, can do no wrong, etc). Your season is over, so here is an opportunity to have some fun. Fine, I can play too.
    How’s your boy Beckett doing today? Did they take him to the hospital to check him out after that asswhooping he took from the Devil Rays last night? Whiplash, maybe?
    I see Mr. Sanchez won his tenth, backed by 2HRs from Mr. Ramirez.

    Rob (Middletown, CT) September 28, 2006, 9:15 am
  • My point, Nick, is that all the love that Jeter gets for being The Captain and the ultimate Yankee and team player is somewhat B.S. because if he as heroically selfless as Jeterluvas portray him to be, he would have offered to the SS spot. The Yanks were signing the best SS ever; deep down he must know that A-Rod is (was) the better SS – I don’t think Jeter’s delusional – so it would make sense and be better for the team for him to volunteer to move.
    To posit your question in ref to my job: if a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist joined my magazine and I was working on the highest profile beat but he had all the best contacts, would I offer to move to make the mag better? Quite possibly. And I don’t have the security of a $180m contract or a Hall of Fame resume.
    And as for criticizing Jeter because he has a grudge at A-Rod: well, how else do you explain is refusal to say anything about the guy? He made supportive comments about Giambi when his career was heading to the toilet, so why not A-Rod?
    PS – Boston in 3rd place! Yaay!

    Sam September 28, 2006, 9:16 am
  • One thing I question, Sam, is whether “deep down” Jeter knew that ARod was a better SS. Jeter is an athelete, not a performance analyst. I doubt he knows what range factor, rate, and all those defensive stats that tell us he’s bad are. He probably has a sense that he’s not great moving to his left, but I pretty much guarantee he thinks he’s a good defensive SS.
    He’s wrong, but I don’t think he sat their and thought “well, ARod’s better at my position, but I don’t like him so to hell with that, I’m staying put.” Plus the Yankees had a real need at 3B.

    Rob (Middletown, CT) September 28, 2006, 9:19 am
  • How come it is only with Arod? I mean shouldnt jeter get flack for not defending RJ. Or Carl Pavano?
    Nothing is wrong with Jeter being silent on arod. He was in a slump. Jeter knew that. Could jeter have said soemthing to the media? probably. But that would lead to Arod needing to be babied in NY and the media blitz that goes along with a $25 million dollar man not being able to stick up for himself. There is only one way for Arod to win in NY Media. Get a ring.
    What does Varitek say about Becketts slump?

    Seth September 28, 2006, 9:24 am
  • Varitek doesn’t have to say anything, because he knows Beckett is going to go whine to the press about them treating him unfairly. He’s a competitor, he wants to win, you can see that when he starts. The consistency isn’t there. A-Rod, on the other hand, does not have that same competitive drive, I think it’s easy to see that. And then A-Rod and Verducci have their little pow-wow, and some dirty laundry starts getting aired. Personally, the media focus right now is A-Rod’s fault, but I still contend that Jeter could’ve prevented it.

    Quo September 28, 2006, 9:31 am
  • That should be, he knows Beckett ISN’T going to go whine to the press about them treating him unfairly.

    Quo September 28, 2006, 9:33 am
  • Since we’re commenting on Beckett’s performance – how’d those Devil Rays treat Randy Johnson and Mike Mussina just a few days ago? At least Beckett made it into the later innings before the Ace killers got to him, and we’re not worrying about how Beckett will be in a few weeks – like say, the other two.

    Brad September 28, 2006, 9:39 am
  • Randy was playing hurt. Moose had 2ER before leaving the game early.
    Beckett had more earned runs that both RJ and MM combined. Does he not care if the sox finish in 3rd place?

    Seth September 28, 2006, 9:49 am
  • Oh come on, Seth. There is always an excuse for Yankee pitchers. In four starts against TB, Johnson is 1-2 with a ERA north of 9.00. It’s not like that team can’t jump on you quick. Was he hurt for all of them, or does TB have a knack for making good pitchers look very bad.
    And, I’m sure he does care that the Sox finish in third – maybe not as much as you, but I’ll assume that he does care.

    Brad September 28, 2006, 9:54 am
  • Also, all of his came on a bunk call late in the game, not early like the other two. Did you even watch it, or all you just looking at the box score and commenting away?

    Brad September 28, 2006, 9:57 am
  • I did not watch. I was at the yanks game. My point was not to get into a pitching comparison. It was about captains standing up for struggling players. People knock jeter for not standing up for Arod, this year and point that he stood up for Giambi a few years back. Well what about when Giambi was in a slump this year? My point was that people are using very petty instances to try and knock Jeter. I in turn tried to do the same asking why Varitek has not supported some of his star teammates during their struggles.

    Seth September 28, 2006, 10:21 am
  • Rob:
    That “all” was modifying the already qualified “some”. I too hate those generalizations, which is why I qualified the “YFs” portion of my statement. I am sorry if that wasn’t clear enough.

    SF September 28, 2006, 10:30 am
  • Jeter gets as much of a free pass from many Yankees fans as someone like Ortiz gets from many Sox fans (myself NOT included, so I think I am being pretty fair here – this is not about any specific player, no matter how bad some of you YFs want it to be). I think that’s the jist of this. It’s easy to excuse Jeter for his silence, but it’s not right.

    SF September 28, 2006, 10:35 am
  • …this arod/jeter thing is a non-story for crying out loud…you guys think this is the first clubhouse where a couple of guys weren’t all hugs and kisses [remember munson, martin, and reggie]?…what’s the bottom line?…WINNING…so ortiz sends ‘flowers and chocolates’ to manny, and jeter doesn’t do the same for arod…what did it get ortiz?…manny still took the better part of the last month off [yeh, i know, he was injured], and jeter and arod are getting ready for the playoffs…besides, do we know for sure that jeter hasn’t spoken to arod privately?…it’s never been his style to say much of any substance to the press…
    …no, this is one yf that does not believe jeter is perfect, but i do believe that many sox fans’ obsessive rantings about his perceived short-comings are over the top…if you want to get into a pissing contest about the over-rated sox players [and captain], we can do that…
    …should jeter have given up his position for arod?…last i knew that was the manager’s decision…the yanks haven’t hesitated on making those decisions before, loyalty to a player notwithstanding…
    …jeter probably does have a bruised ego…in his early years, he kept hearing that he was good, but would never be as good as arod and nomar…now, he’s hearing that he shouldn’t be the mvp because his power stats aren’t good enough, and get this, his team is too good…supposedly the team is supposed to win for a player to qualify for mvp [this year’s standard, anyway], but the fact that he is surrounded by a bunch of premier players is supposed to deduct points from his value because he has it “easier” being on such a good team…note to sox fans and other jeter detractors: give the guy his due, stop manipulating [or inventing] stats and stories that portray him in a bad light, and admit for once that he is a quality player, and you wouldn’t mind having him on your team…
    brad, yanks would never trade arod for manny straight up…manny’s a bigger headache…throw in papelbon…then, maybe…

    dc September 28, 2006, 10:39 am
  • admit for once that he is a quality player
    so who has the chip on their shoulder? This Sox fan believes Jeter is a legit MVP candidate. The “Sox fans don’t think Jeter is a quality player” line is pretty much total BS.
    On the other hand, the “many YFs are thin-skinned when it comes to any criticisms of their beloved captain” is not. As is proven by this thread.

    SF September 28, 2006, 10:43 am
  • There is an interesting quote from Remy on the opening page of the BDD (from EEI). If he says it, I tend to believe it. I hate it, but I still tend to believe it.

    Brad September 28, 2006, 10:56 am
  • “How come it is only with Arod? I mean shouldnt jeter get flack for not defending RJ. Or Carl Pavano?
    “What does Varitek say about Becketts slump?”
    The difference, Seth, should be apparent. When have Pavano and Johnson received days upon days of negative back-page headlines and talk-show angst. Pavano maybe a little, but it’s clearly not affecting his performance — as Nick said, he keeps on trucking with that 0.00 ERA ;-). Beckett and Johnson both have been sources of frustration, but the media in both cities have been pretty fair to them, praising their excellent performances, ripping their shabby ones.
    On the other hand, A-Rod gets ripped for his bad performances AND his good ones (remember the Post headline when he hit a ninth-inning jack off Foulke in a Red Sox blowout?) Jeter could mitigate that by saying, “Hey, lay off the guy,” thus fiving Rodriguez some apparently needed breathing room and possibly helping the Yankees win more games/put some distance in what was then a tight race. He did not. The fact that the Yankees made the playoffs anyway is incidental — it’s in spite of Jeter’s failure to lead in this instance, not because of it.

    Paul SF September 28, 2006, 10:58 am
  • Remy’s a class act. Boston Dirt Dogs, continuing to claim to speak for all RSN while actually speaking only for an outspoken few, remains not.

    Paul SF September 28, 2006, 11:00 am
  • …wrong again sf…you missed the whole point of my comments…they are not “thin-skinned” at all…go ahead and crticize, just use facts, and not speculation about who said or didn’t say what…by the way sf’s can be thin-skinned too…just look at the reaction to defend ortiz’ indefensible mvp rant…
    …i did say jeter isn’t perfect, in fact he’s far from it, but he is a quality player of high value to his team…sorry if many sf’s don’t like to hear that, but that’s the way it is…being objective about him is something that you don’t give us yf’s enough credit for…my observation that many sox fans don’t think he is a quality player, and go to great lengths in an attempt to prove it, is right on…you may not be one of the “many”, but this thread is peppered with some snide comments from you about his character and personality, if not his ball playing skills…

    dc September 28, 2006, 11:08 am
  • dc at 10:39 a.m.
    “note to sox fans and other jeter detractors: give the guy his due, stop manipulating [or inventing] stats and stories that portray him in a bad light, and admit for once that he is a quality player, and you wouldn’t mind having him on your team…”
    dc at 11:08 a.m.
    “my observation that many sox fans don’t think he is a quality player, and go to great lengths in an attempt to prove it, is right on”
    That, friends, is called backpedaling.
    I have yet to see a single sf on this site say Jeter is not a future Hall of Famer or in any way downplay the fact that he is one of the best shortstops ever to play the game.

    Paul SF September 28, 2006, 11:12 am
  • How about this statment. Jeter is the best captain in baseball right now.

    Seth September 28, 2006, 11:20 am
  • False. (Or at least not apparently true).
    Best player with the title? True.

    Paul SF September 28, 2006, 11:24 am
  • about his character and personality, if not his ball playing skills
    That’s the point. Too many times fans of all teams conflate skill with character. The lesson for me in this is that Jeter is subject to the same petty ego-driven character traits that people jump all over guys like A-Rod for, if at a much lower level of frequency. Jeter, a fantastic ballplayer, may not be the saint he’s made out to be by too many people. The big thing here is that Jeter is the captain, and as captain he might have been able to help stop the A-Rod sideshow. He chose not to do anything at all. It’s worth thinking about, at the very least.

    SF September 28, 2006, 11:38 am
  • …wrong again Paul…go back and re-read my original 10:39 post…”…i do believe that many sox fans’ obsessive rantings about his perceived short-comings are over the top…”…[note the reference to ‘many’ sf’s]….what paul is doing friends, as usual, is cherry-picking comments in order to manipulate the context….he seems to be overly thin-skinned about not being lumped together with other sf’s…
    Paul SF at 11:12: “I have yet to see a single sf on this site say Jeter is not a future Hall of Famer or in any way downplay the fact that he is one of the best shortstops ever to play the game.”….nice spin…that may be true of TODAY’S thread, since the theme has been more about criticizing his personality and ability to lead…you might throw the guy an occasional bone, but i don’t recall an sf on this site saying jeter DID belong in the hall, or NOT downplay his record at SS…

    dc September 28, 2006, 11:41 am
  • Hear, hear, SF. I’m afraid I have to disagree with many of my fellow YFs on this one.

    Sam September 28, 2006, 11:43 am
  • sf…you make a good point…no one’s saying that jeter is an altar boy…he’s obviously flawed just like the rest of us, and continues to suffer from a bruised ego…don’t we all at some point?…do you agree in kind that veritek [as the captain] should be criticized for not coming to manny’s defense, rather than leave it up to ortiz?…i’m ok with the criticism, my original objection was with the way jeter-bashing seems to be an obsession…as for arod, at some point, he needs to grow up and be a man…jeter shouldn’t have to speak for him…

    dc September 28, 2006, 11:47 am
  • Well, I’ll refresh your memory, dc…
    “Now, of course, Jeter easily has the claim on the better career, and he’ll be in the Hall of Fame, while Nomar won’t.” SF, 8/22/06
    In response to lp’s question about Jeter and the Hall of Fame in the same thread, I responded: “Jeter will go, Nomar will not.”
    So there’s two examples for you. There’s been no downplay at all of Jeter’s stats. There has been mention of his less-than-stellar defensive ability and the fact that his stats weren’t as good as Nomar’s during the days when they both played shortstop in the AL East, but there’s been much credit given to Jeter on this site. It seems a lot of YFs conveniently forget this when it suits them, however.

    Paul SF September 28, 2006, 11:49 am
  • “It’s worth thinking about, at the very least.”
    NO IT’S NOT!!!!!!! I DON’T CARE!!!!!!!
    No offense, but this post is soap-operatic bullshit.

    Andrews September 28, 2006, 12:02 pm
  • Correction: This THREAD is soap-operatic BS.

    Andrews September 28, 2006, 12:04 pm
  • This coming from someone who posted in all-caps with 14 exclamation points. Now that’s soap-operatic.

    Paul SF September 28, 2006, 12:13 pm
  • Baseball is so rich with characters, Andrews, that your detached disdain for this thread rings hollow to me. Just see the top thread posted by YF, to an interesting essay about Bonds and Ty Cobb, two of the game’s great players and all-time personalities. The national pastime is about more than just rings, more than just VORP. It’s about the guys we root for, who we think they are versus who they really are. This thread is just a longer version of some of the classic debates of baseball.
    The Jeter/A-Rod doppelganger is a classic baseball issue and I see no reason why it shouldn’t be discussed. For the most part, it’s being done intelligently here. If you think it’s not valid, then please explain why in more eloquent terms than you have chosen.

    SF September 28, 2006, 12:15 pm
  • paul sf….i only started participating a few weeks ago [probably not as far back as you went to retrieve those comments, but i’m not certain], and didn’t recall seeing those kinds of comments recently when all of the mvp flap was hot and heavy…but nevertheless, i stand corrected…how about that, a yf admitting they were wrong about something…too bad you can’t say the same…and by the way, why are you so obsessed with disproving a single fact in someone’s post, while ignoring the entire essence…now that’s petty…

    dc September 28, 2006, 12:20 pm
  • Why do Moose and A-Rod hate each other? Sounds like this animosity is even deeper than the Jeter/A-Rod distaste. Anyone have any ideas?

    SF September 28, 2006, 12:21 pm
  • The fact I refuted did make up fully half of your comment, dc, so that’s why I refuted it (since you called it spin and whatnot).
    I didn’t intend to take your quotes out of context, fwiw. I went back and ssaw that you did use the “many” qualifier for your first reference to sfs, and I missed that the first time. So I too stand corrected. I enjoy the sparring (hopefully you do too) and I’m glad you’ve decided to participate, dc…

    Paul SF September 28, 2006, 12:27 pm
  • Not being one to sit here and read every story about the Yankee clubhouse, I was surprised to see there was a rift between Mussina and Rodriguez. I wondered about that too.

    Paul SF September 28, 2006, 12:29 pm
  • Apparently on July 20, Mussina called out A-Rod after an error supposedly cost Moose a win: “We need him back playing the way he’s supposed to be.”
    I remember that quote, but I don’t remember anyone then talking about a Mussina-Rodriguez rift. I’d guess it goes back further than that.

    Paul SF September 28, 2006, 12:36 pm
  • paul sf….no hurt feelings here buddy, and i’m glad you feel the same way…if i get out of line [and admit i do occasionally], you should point it out…good thing we’re not sensitive like arod…
    …speaking of which, i seem to recall that earlier this year when arod turned in one of his less than stellar defensive efforts in a game that moose pitched, moose was less than flattering in his post game comments [i don’t think he mentioned arod by name, but it was obvious]…sorry i can’t be more specific than that, but perhaps a yf more adept at research can help me out on this one…

    dc September 28, 2006, 12:42 pm
  • Paul sf, i didn’t see your last post as i was typing mine, so i think we’re probably referring to the same incident…and i agree with you that might not be the whole story with those 2….

    dc September 28, 2006, 12:46 pm
  • Wow, looks like I missed the kegger! Nothing but empty cups and puddles of vomit lying about.
    A couple of points before we all pass out:
    1 .Tabloid headlines drive site traffic through the roof. It’s telling that Sox fans are honing in on speculating about the inner workings of players they have never known personally who are in a group situation that, despite the false sense of familiarity our media saturated society wants to perpetrate, they ultimately know nothing about. That being said, if the Yankees were rendered irrelevant and in third place and the Sox were sharpening their knives for a playoff run, Yankees fans would be dwelling on Theo, Lucky, Schilling, et al. And if it were a genuine rivalry, we’d all be talking baseball instead of soap opera sub-plot speculation. But, it’s fun nonetheless.
    2. Jeter critics must forgive those who support him for thinking that The Captain isn’t getting a fair shake. A very common tactic that we see in politics (and from Jeter-haters) all the time goes something like this:
    Person A is (insert superlative compliment here).
    -followed by
    Criticism A
    Criticism B
    Criticism C
    Criticism D
    etc. , etc.
    And when called on it, the critic will refer back to the original compliment and claim he has nothing but respect for his target. And, obviously, when we examine ALL of the commentary we see a drastic imbalance where considerably more words are spent knocking the target than acknowledging his/her attributes. The ultimate effect is that the critic discredits his own “conventional wisdom” / general compliment by offering more pointed and specific criticism.
    What goes on at this site from Sox fans with respects to Jeter is the baseball equivalent of Swift Boating. Anyone who believes that Bush’s compliment to Kerry regarding his military service offset the repeated knocks from the swift boaters is naïve. The same with Paul’s comments above. And the reason why the compliment doesn’t’ t outweigh or offset the criticism is because the compliment is a broad generalization offered without any support while the knocks are very specific and supported whenever possible. If someone read Paul’s commentary without any knowledge of Jeter whatsoever, that reader would come away with the impression that Jeter, while regarded as a HOFer, certainly doesn’t deserve to be – which is the intent of this particular tactic. I used it in point one by tagging the disclaimer at the end.
    So, please Paul, don’t insult our intelligence with the “who me?” stuff.
    Yes, you.
    And SF, why to Theo and Lucky hate one another? More importantly, who cares?

    lp September 28, 2006, 1:02 pm
  • ” If you think it’s not valid, then please explain why in more eloquent terms than you have chosen. ”
    This is a clubhouse issue. No one, save members of the team and staff, really knows the dynamic between Jeter and Arod. I find it pointless to debate a topic based on heresay, press quotes, and the like.
    I doubt this “classic baseball issue” would be discussed at all if the standings in the ALE were closer – more likely the result of a combination of boredom and a desire to take pot shots at Jeter and Arod.

    Anonymous September 28, 2006, 1:03 pm
  • And SF, why to Theo and Lucky hate one another? More importantly, who cares?
    I seem to remember this being a major topic of discussion some time ago, for both SFs and YFs alike. All of a sudden this line of debate is off-base, particularly for YFs. How conveeenient.

    SF September 28, 2006, 1:16 pm
  • “All of a sudden this line of debate is off-base, particularly for YFs. How conveeenient.”
    That’s my point. No one cares about Theo and Lucky because no one cares about a third place team this time of year. The Jeter/Arod stuff comes up and gets major play when the team is assembling one of the most potent lineups in MLB history.

    lp September 28, 2006, 1:28 pm
  • Really? I took away from that book that your point was to drag Sox fans through the mud for having an opinion on the problems withing the Yankee clubhouse.

    Brad September 28, 2006, 1:42 pm
  • Maybe you sould re-read Brad, this time with the Cliff Notes to help you out.

    lp September 28, 2006, 1:52 pm
  • lp, I love your feistiness, but I have to say that I seem to be with SFs on this one. Look, as a YF I’m annoyed that Jeter didn’t come out and vigorously defend A-Rod when it was needed. I think it would have helped the situation had he done so. I think it reflects badly on Jeter that he didn’t. He’s the captian, and as the captain you should suck it up and publicly defend all your teammates regardless of your personal feelings. Why didn’t he?
    I love Jeter. I love the fact that he’s “my” captain, I think he’s an awesome player, a deserved MVP and I’m in awe of his sexual prowess. I would be absolutely devasted and disenchanted if he was ever traded away or let go. But I also think his behavior has been wrong in this regard and I think it’s fair to lay that at his door.

    Sam September 28, 2006, 2:21 pm
  • I agree, lp. Where can I get those Cliff notes?
    I normally don’t question the main points of someones post, but when you made slight mention of the “who cares” topic, then went onto defend Jeter and criticize those who have something negative to say
    (with a very creative politcal analogy nonetheless, Bravo!)for the next couple hundred words, and then revert back to the “who cares” stuff, I figured I was correct. Oh well. Like most times, the Yanks fan is correct and I’m wrong.
    And, not to be critical or anything but by offering your opinion on what the Sox fans think or say about the Yankee players we “know nothing about” and defending those players in the same breath, aren’t you indulging in the same luxury? Do you know them well enough to defend them or know whos is correct in their assumptions?
    Oh well, it doesn’t matter I if the point was to point out that it doesn’t matter because the Sox are out of it.

    Brad September 28, 2006, 2:22 pm
  • Once again, lp, you take my comments and ascribe intent to them despite the fact that you are actually not me. You need to stop doing that because 1. It’s a poor line of argument that does you no favors and 2. You’re not me (but I’m sure some reasonable therapists would take your case).
    I stand behind my comments that Jeter is a Hall of Famer and one of the best shortstops in the game. I also stand behind my comments that his defense is overrated, he wasn’t as good as Nomar during the Sox years and that he appears to value his five-year-old grudges over helping the Yankees be a better team.
    Now if you can somewhere get the impression that I really think deep down that Jeter isn’t a Hall of Famer from that paragraph, so be it. But I’ve about had enough of you telling me what I REALLY think and what I REALLY mean and what I REALLY meant to say.

    Paul SF September 28, 2006, 2:25 pm
  • …oi…i’m still glad i made my peace with paul sf…
    …i think the reason that arod/jeter, or mussina/arod and other famous conflicts are topics of discussion is because the sportwriters [and us] are bored just hearing about stats while we wait for the playoffs to start, and some sf’s get some solace from the notion of unrest on their least favorite team…i’m ok with that…these players are humans, not robots, and the dynamics that go on between them are somewhat interesting…i gave an example earlier about billy martin, reggie jackson, and thurman munson…but, a more recent example [non-baseball] is TO [and every QB and coach he’s played with]…the press, and espn just won’t let it go…my complaint with it, is that it dominates the coverage of the sport…

    dc September 28, 2006, 2:26 pm
  • Brad,
    I’m knocking those who have an opinion about the inner workings of Jeter’s mind because such opinions are about as uninformed as it can get. The same thing about the inner workings of the clubhouse. You know nothing of such matters and, as such, your opinions about them are a waste of time – especially when we factor in your motives. The only reason they get play is because the Yankees are the front-runners. Which comes to my last point to SF – we don’t care about Lucky and Theo because no one cares about a third place team in September.
    “Once again, lp, you take my comments and ascribe intent to them despite the fact that you are actually not me.”
    Paul, please apply this concept to Jeter with respects to this entire thread. And your Jeter bashing is purely partisan and overtly transparent, no psychoanalysis necessary.

    lp September 28, 2006, 2:48 pm
  • Of course it’s purely partisan, lp! I’m a Red Sox fan! Just like the unqualified defenses we’ve hears here are partisan because they’re from Yankee fans! I’d be much more forgiving of his flaws (although I like to think I’d at least acknowledge them) if he were on the Red Sox. I’m not sure your point, and it doesn’t sound like it’s the same as the point you made before. Can’t I respect the player, which i do, while rooting against him and digging at him when I can because he’s playing for the team I most despise in all of professional sports?

    Paul SF September 28, 2006, 2:54 pm
  • Which comes to my last point to SF – we don’t care about Lucky and Theo because no one cares about a third place team in September.
    Wait, so is it that we can’t discuss these things now because a team is in third, or we can’t discuss them ever?

    SF September 28, 2006, 3:05 pm
  • a couple of assumptions made during this thread have been dubious:
    1. A-Rod needed a wake-up call from one of his teammates to get back on track.
    This line of thinking is responsible for the single most worthless profession in the world: the sports psychologist. That’s right! I’m laying down the gauntlet on those sychophantish hangers-on.
    2. defending Jeter from the accusation of being mean, vindictive and petty during the A-Rod “crisis” is somehow the same as being a card-carrying member of the Jeter cult. Actually, my defense follows my decision not to read the motives of people who have not said anything or done anything aggressively mean, vindictive or petty. Once again, I’m laying down the gauntlet on that sorry profession of sports psychologizing.
    3. Ortiz’s comments about the MVP race and his defenders rationalizations after the fact are comparable to Jeter’s non-defense of A-Rod and the ensuing rationalizations of his defenders. This is not true. Ortiz said something. People got on him for it. Some tried to defend him meekly. Then he was forced to clarify those comments and the issue was kind of resolved (at least for me). Jeter hasn’t said anything, he doesn’t need to explain his actions, only the read-between-the-liners care. Jeter will not be offering any clarification in the months to come.
    4. The idea that it was selfish of Jeter to not give up his position to A-Rod when he first came to the Bronx. Especially considering that Jeter was not asked to change positions, this seems to be an especially high standard to follow for any human being; even one labeled “captain”. He followed the organizations wishes which were for him to stay put. That’s that. What else should he have done? Volunteered to be traded for Barry Bonds in 1998?

    Nick-YF September 28, 2006, 3:09 pm
  • “Can’t I respect the player, which i do, while rooting against him and digging at him when I can because he’s playing for the team I most despise in all of professional sports?”
    Seriously though, the reason why I don’t concede the alleged character flaws is because there is no way of truly knowing what they are. I’m sure he’s a jerk on SOME level, but that is only truly known by those who work and live with him. The media is not apart of that circle. As you know, they report what sells and tell the most digestible story for their audience. Seriously debating about what was leaked and then reported is somewhat of a waste of the collective baseball intelligence of those in this thread and on this site.
    That being said, I only jumped in so that I could say that the Red Sox are “a third-place team” as many times as possible while it lasts.

    lp September 28, 2006, 3:15 pm
  • Since the Blue Jays appear to be handling the Tigers pretty well today, it might last one more day…

    Paul SF September 28, 2006, 3:28 pm
  • Nick – you are moving some goalposts around, at least as far as my position is concerned. If you are addressing other people, then they can respond accordingly.
    1. For me, this isn’t necessarily about giving A-Rod a wakeup call. I don’t know if Jeter saying something would have had any impact on A-Rod (I doubt it, in fact). But him praising A-Rod in some fashion, even innocuously, might have helped keep the tabloid wolves at bay. That’s the thing for me, and that’s what a Captain can do for his teammate, not get them out of a slump.
    2. Paul posted in response to Klapisch’s column, along with long-standing evidence that these guys hold grudges. Klapisch isn’t Dan Shaughnessy; my read on him is that he’s a reasonable Yankee partisan, but mostly a decent ESPN writer if not a genius. I think you are overstating things.
    3. The things Ortiz said are not being equated to anything Jeter did not say. What is being compared (by me, at least) is the similarity in response by fans of each player. Many Yankees fans won’t tolerate Jeter being criticised, many Sox fans won’t accept the same for Papi. I think both stances are absurd. In this case, criticism of Jeter is legitimate, for reasons that are different than those that applied to Papi, which were equally legitimate and more crystallized.
    4. It may have been de rigeur for Jeter to not give up his position, I don’t think anyone is arguing that the onus was on him primarily. But imagine if he had: then you’d be talking about Jeter as if he’s the deity he’s made out to be here in NYC, and rightfully so. Volunteering to move would have been smart, unselfish, dignified, beyond classy. He didn’t do it.

    SF September 28, 2006, 3:29 pm
  • I agree, incidentally, that we can’t know what goes on in Jeter/ARod’s head. But we can make reasonable guesses using a. the “reasonable person” standard and magnifying it for oversized sports egos, and b. looking at what Jeter has done in the past for players who haven’t dissed him to national magazines. And what’s wrong with bandying it around, in either case?

    Paul SF September 28, 2006, 3:41 pm
  • “Volunteering to move would have been…”
    And we wouldn’t have either Cano or Damon. I don’t remember any standout third basemen available at the time, and Andy Phillips doesn’t measure up to the aforementioned duo. In this case I’m glad he wasn’t “smart, unselfish, dignified, beyond classy.”

    Andrews September 28, 2006, 3:48 pm
  • “Volunteering to move would have been smart, unselfish, dignified, beyond classy. He didn’t do it.”
    Now see, this is the type of stuff that takes the fun out of things , despite the fact that the Sox are a third place team.
    This contention is rooted purely in bitterness and jealousy and was floated by Yankee-haters as an attempt to spoil one of the biggest Yankee free-agent signings since Ruth (and to distract from the total incompetence displayed by the Red Sox FO in those negotiations). What makes it completely illogical, unintelligent and rooted in pure partisanship is that it ignores, on all cylinders of denial, the very real possibility that Jeter would make a worse third-baseman than Arod. But of course, that’s what the Yankee poo-pooers want – embarassment for Jeter and the fall of the Yankee Empire.
    So pardon Yankee fans and the Yankee front office for ignoring the opinions of those who wish the Empire ill-will.
    BTW, Cal Ripken was asked to do a similar duty and flat-out refused – and then later moved over at the very end of his career, after the streak was over. But we don’t hear anyone bringing that up of an example of what an a-hole he was.

    lp September 28, 2006, 4:27 pm
  • If it makes you feel better, lp, I’ve long thought Ripken put his personal achievement ahead of consideration for the team’s success by playing for the streak instead of taking days off that would have rested him and helped the team. It’s not surprising to me that he would do something like that…

    Paul SF September 28, 2006, 4:38 pm
  • Well, he wasn’t one. Also, he wasn’t going to be replaced by someone BETTER.

    Brad September 28, 2006, 4:39 pm
  • Actually, lp, there was a lot of talk about Ripken’s not moving as a selfish act, IIRC.

    SF September 28, 2006, 4:42 pm
  • “… replaced by someone BETTER”
    while this was true at the time, there is no guarantee that ARod wouldn’t have the same problems in NY playing SS…

    Andrews September 28, 2006, 4:52 pm

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