Name That User

It may not help bring closure to the Steroid Era. It may actually border on the voyeuristic. But everyone’s talking about the names that are cotnained in the Mitchell Report today, and the first leak is that of Roger Clemens, according to ESPN.

So have at it.

406 comments… add one
  • Hrmm, AP does train with RC quite a bit. I hope that he isn’t on it..

    Lar December 13, 2007, 10:13 am
  • “Gonna be a bad day in the Bronx” Not fun.

    dknyc December 13, 2007, 10:15 am
  • Brendan Donnelly was probably named in the report, which is why he was non-tendered.
    Look around the league. If this happens with any other players today you can assume the same.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 10:16 am
  • The question will be, if it’s true, when did Clemens start using. The natural break is the difference between his 1996 and 1997 seasons, but he was actually blowing hitters away in his last season in Boston, just got no run support. I wonder if he didn’t start using (again, if true) in 1994-95 and ran into the same thing Bonds did — his muscles grew too quick and caused some pulls and tears — which he had in abundance from 1994-96. Seemed like he couldn’t stay off the DL in those years.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 10:19 am
  • Interesting point, Atheose.
    One name I pray *is* on there is Carl Pavano. Can you imagine? There would be much rejoicing in Yankeeland if that were the case…

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 10:20 am
  • Why are two of the sources connected with NY teams?
    Curious that no other area had informers.

    Anonymous December 13, 2007, 10:20 am
  • Also, Paul, I wonder if it’s possible for a player to only use sporadically, like when he’s on the DL, for instance?

    The Sheriff (Andrews) December 13, 2007, 10:22 am
  • Paul, that’s exactly why this whole affair is so bothersome. There is no *proof* aside from what pretty much amounts to clubhouse gossip. Without actual positive tests, there will be no way of knowing if/when/how for sure. I’ll bet an army of lawyers is already drafting libel/defamation suits…

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 10:25 am
  • Well, the NYT reported yesterday that the names would be included with documentary evidence. Obviously, “the Yankees trainer says so” is not documentary. So I’m wondering if there is some harder evidence there, or if the NYT heard wrong. I agree, the hearsay stuff is unhelpful.
    Frankly, I’m not sure naming anyone is helpful — though I admit I’ve been hoping they would.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 10:27 am
  • I guess I don’t see the point in naming names. It appeases the pitchfork and torch mob, but, in my view, it isn’t cathartic or useful.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 10:31 am
  • What kind of documentary evidence could there be? Photos of players accepting stacks of syringes? Surely no one is so dumb as to pay for illegal drugs with a check or a credit card?

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 10:31 am
  • Brendan Donnelly
    I’ve alwasys said that that ENTIRE Angels bullpen was suspect from that time frame:)

    Brad December 13, 2007, 10:31 am
  • Wasn’t there a paper trail linking Gary Matthews to HGH? YM, people can be stupid.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 10:33 am
  • YM, the NYT said receipts, canceled checks, phone records, etc. So apparently some ARE dumb enough…

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 10:33 am
  • This report is a mistake. Bud Selig will look back at this as another “All-Star Game Tie.” What good is going to come out of this?

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 10:35 am
  • Yeah, I just heard on ESPN (tv) that Clemens’ trainer has a paper trail. I dunno how much proof that gives (“That $6,000 wasn’t for steroids! It was for pizza!”), but we’ll see later I suppose.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 10:35 am
  • Red Sox users we know of:
    Jose Canseco
    Jeremy Giambi
    Paxton Crawford
    I wonder if they’re part of the “60-80” or not…
    Likewise, Yankee users:
    Gary Sheffield
    Jason Giambi
    Tony Womack
    And now Roger Clemens.
    The big question is it’s 60-80 new names. Because we could probably get together a list of 30 or so names we already knew/suspected.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 10:36 am
  • Good point, Nick. I forgot about that one. Heh.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 10:37 am
  • Look for Brad Wilkerson.

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 10:37 am
  • Was the Tony Womack quip a joke? Or did I miss something?

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 10:38 am
  • Yeah, I never knew about Tony Womack either. Is that forrizzle?

    Anonymous December 13, 2007, 10:39 am
  • I have a good (bad?) feeling about Paul Lo Duca being named. The man is clearly mad with ‘roid rage.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 10:39 am
  • So it was gonna come up eventually and maybe I should wait until we actually can read the report but Clemens has got to be the first case where we can ask about Mitchell’s Red Sox connection. Let me be clear, im not saying Roger was named because he was a Yankee more that I find it interesting that it would so clearly say while he was a Jay and a yankee he juiced. How much did Mitchell dig into his time at the sox? was the source even with him at the time?
    For all these reasons, you can put Clemens in the Sox who juice category too. Like it or not, we have no idea when he did what.

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 10:40 am
  • My bad, Nick. Meant Matt Lawton.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 10:41 am
  • Yeah Womack, Andy Stankiewicz and Alvaro Espinoza. Common knowledge, duh!
    JK

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 10:41 am
  • Take a look at Womack’s eyebrows, you telling me that guy didnt juice?

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 10:42 am
  • I remember reading a pitching book by Tom House years ago, and he had a chapter on steroids. He believed that pitchers benefit the most from steroids, especially when you’re in your late-30’s/early 40’s.
    Anyone have an over/under estimate on the percentage of names are pitchers? I’ll put the bar at 30%.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 10:42 am
  • The important part for me about this report is not the names but how good/bad a case Mitchell makes about the extent of steroid use during the period in question. Is his report going to imply that these names were just the tip of the iceberg, or is he going to say that these were isolated instances as far as he could tell?

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 10:43 am
  • I’ll take the over, considering how many of the people actually busted so far have been pitchers. I’d say it’s more like 50-65%.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 10:44 am
  • Tony Womack’s Eye Brows should have been a blog name. I always thought he kind of looked like the mean baby on the Simpsons. Anyone? Anyone?

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 10:45 am
  • Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte were linked while they were on the Astros, right? If I recall, that story was somehow debunked and disappeared. I forget the details.
    The thing about these drugs that seem so amazing is how effective they seem to be in actually enhancing performance. The fact that we are all able to throw out names based not only body size, but suspiciously increased performance (I’m looking at you Bret Boone!) seems to demonstrate this.

    DR December 13, 2007, 10:46 am
  • For all these reasons, you can put Clemens in the Sox who juice category too.
    Like I said, based on his injury history, I would think it’s highly probable he started using in somewhere around 1993, the season he was barely league average and went 11-14. He then missed significant time with injuries in 1994-95 (groin pulls the main culprit, IIRC) but pitched MUCH better, had an excellent year in 1996 and the rest is history.
    All speculation, of course, but I wonder if 1993 scared him and he decided he needed something to regain that edge.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 10:47 am
  • Naming a blog after him would have only made the memory of his stay with the Yankees last longer. I would like to have that memory, the memory of Kenny Lofton and the entire 2004 baseball season zapped from my memory with that doo-dad from Men In Black.

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 10:47 am
  • On the horizon:
    If BB can’t go to the hall, neither can RC. If RC can, BB should.

    Kazz December 13, 2007, 10:47 am
  • Im with ya Nick, ive actually made that connection myself with one of my buddies.

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 10:48 am
  • But, DR, what about Matt Lawton, Jason Grimsley, Alex Sanchez, Guillermo Mota, Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney, Death Cab for Cutie, etc?

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 10:49 am
  • ym, i agree with you in hoping that there’s more to this investigation than mere gossip by even shadier characters than the guys being named [you know, “no honor among thieves”]…that’s why i said that i’d like to get a better feel for the process that mitchell followed, especially to establish the veracity of the individuals providing the information, and the verification of evidence…i’m no attorney, so i doubt he has the same burden of proof that a prosecutor in a courtroom setting would have, but i’ll know a sloppy investigation when i see one…

    dc December 13, 2007, 10:50 am
  • Thats an interesting read Paul, I guess it could be once you start you cant stop.
    Bonds and Clemens should both be in the hall IMO

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 10:50 am
  • Regarding BB, this is probably going to be a good day for him. Already, Gammons on ESPN is speaking sympathetically about him.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 10:50 am
  • “How much did Mitchell dig into his time at the sox?”
    Sam, in my book, the very fact that that question can be asked underlines the stupidity of naming Mitchell, or anyone else with ties to a club, to head this investigation. The findings will be controversial enough without the extra layer of bias questions sure to be asked by teams who feel they have been singled out.

    The Sheriff (Andrews) December 13, 2007, 10:50 am
  • I think most people are saying Bonds should/will get to the Hall based on his pre-usage numbers. Clemens would be in the same category, I think.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 10:51 am
  • Mitchell once turned down an offer to be a Supreme Court Justice. I’m sure he knows how to protect himself from lawsuits and legal action. Nothing he says today can’t be proven or backed with evidence. He’s not going to tarnish anyone based on heresay.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 10:51 am
  • Buster Olney adds to my point above:

    An agent tells this story: One of his clients was asked by the Mitchell investigators to address a question of steroid impropriety that came out of the information from former Mets batboy Kirk Radomski. The player was shown a canceled check in his name, written to Radomski, and asked to explain what it was for. The player responded: I don’t know. Because it could’ve been for anything from a McDonald’s run for a group of players to clubhouse dues or something else. But the player said he knew this: It wasn’t for performance-enhancing drugs. And, in the end, the Mitchell investigators backed off.
    Is a benign canceled check combined with the word of a former Mets batboy enough to include a player in the report? And no matter what the intention of the Mitchell investigators is, the reality is that if a player’s name is in this report in relation to steroids, he will be effectively convicted in the court of public opinion.
    And you can bet that there is even one name that we haven’t heard before, the union is going to have a lot to say, in its own press conference, about how this report was generated.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 10:51 am
  • And that’s not even mentioning Pete Rose, Kazz!
    Steve Phillips just said he would vote Roger into the HOF anyways based on what he did BEFORE he reportedly used ‘roids. I’m not sure how I feel about that.
    Jesus I’m really torn right now, just in general.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 10:52 am
  • Nick – have you heard the Death Cab for Cutie albums before they started using? I think that is powerful enough proof of the power of these drugs.
    In addition, would we have even heard of these people without the drugs (especially Giuliani)?

    DR December 13, 2007, 10:53 am
  • The findings will be controversial enough without the extra layer of bias questions
    Couldn’t agree more, Andrews. Naming Mitchell — and Mitchell refusing to step aside as director of the Red Sox — were both incredibly obtuse decisions.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 10:53 am
  • “Already, Gammons on ESPN is speaking sympathetically about him.”
    I’m sure to be in the minority here, but I wish Gammons would just STFU once in a while.

    The Sheriff (Andrews) December 13, 2007, 10:54 am
  • ha! I might write a post about how Radiohead obviously used after their first album. That sucked and then the Bends comes out! What’s that about?

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 10:55 am
  • So, SFs….who do you think might be some of the current/recent Sox to be named?

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 10:55 am
  • Sam is trying hard to discredit due to his lack of love for what’s being said. I fully understand. I’d do the same thing, but the fact remains that Mitchell is not on a Yankee witch hunt. He’s releasing his findings, and as it happens, for now anyhow, it’s a Yankee. I’m sure the tides will turn later.
    Did Mitchell have access to the Balco files?

    Brad December 13, 2007, 10:56 am
  • Nomar, Damon, Arroyo, Tek maybe.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 10:57 am
  • Is a benign canceled check combined with the word of a former Mets batboy enough to include a player in the report?
    Um, apparently not, according to Olney’s own story, in which he says that Mitchell’s “investigators backed off.” Nothing about that anecdote seems particularly awful to me. Canceled check given to known steroid distributor who also has other roles in the clubhouse. Evidence taken to player, player denies evidence is steroid-related, investigators back off because they have no case.
    If you’re going to express qualms about a report, shouldn’t you pick an anecdote that doesn’t show investigators doing their jobs properly?

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 10:57 am
  • Yes, Nick, but “Creep” could represent simple prospect potential that was fully realized later. Think Phil Hughes almost no-hitter.
    Is Karl Farnsworth going to be on this list or is the Krazy simply genetic?

    DR December 13, 2007, 10:59 am
  • YM: Nomar, Nixon, Kapler are my three guesses. None of them current Sox, mind you, but I can’t think of any current Sox that really fit the mold.
    Maybe Mirabelli.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 11:00 am
  • ESPN is now reporting that Andy Pettitte is named as well.
    Goddamnit.
    Oh, and Yankeemonkey, I’ve got money on Nomar, Millar and Pokey Reese.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 11:00 am
  • RUMOR ALERT!!!!
    “Brady Anderson, Manny Alexander, Rick Ankiel, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Aaron Boone, Rafaeil Bettancourt, Bret Boone, Milton Bradley, David Bell, Dante Bichette, Albert Belle, Paul Byrd, Wil Cordero, Ken Caminiti, Mike Cameron, Ramon Castro, Jose and Ozzie Canseco, Roger Clemens, Paxton Crawford, Wilson Delgado, Lenny Dykstra, Johnny Damon, Carl Everett, Kyle Farnsoworth, Ryan Franklin, Troy Glaus, Rich Garces, Jason Grimsley, Troy Glaus, Juan Gonzalez, Eric Gagne, Nomar Garciaparra, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Jose Guillen, Jay Gibbons, Juan Gonzalez, Clay Hensley, Jerry Hairston, Felix Heredia, Jr., Darren Holmes, Wally Joyner, Darryl Kile, Matt Lawton, Raul Mondesi, Mark McGwire, Guillermo Mota, Robert Machado, Damian Moss, Abraham Nunez, Trot Nixon, Jose Offerman, Andy Pettitte, Mark Pior, Neifi Perez, Rafael Palmiero, Albert Pujols, Brian Roberts,Juan Rincon, John Rocker, Pudge Rodriguez, Sammy Sosa, Scott Schoenweiis, David Segui, Alex Sanchez, Gary Sheffield, Miguel Tejada, Julian Tavarez, Fernando Tatis, Maurice Vaughn, Jason Varitek, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams and Kerry Wood”

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 11:00 am
  • Is Karl Farnsworth going to be on this list or is the Krazy simply genetic?
    HAHA thanks for the laugh DR! Same goes for Tavarez. ‘Crazy’ is all natural baby!

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 11:01 am
  • Ooooh the plot thickens! Pete A. reports Yankees will hold a conference call in a few minutes to announce A-Rod’s contract.
    Hmm. A-Rod will be in on the call. Rushing to announce it before 2 pm…
    Nah…it couldn’t be, could it?

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 11:01 am
  • “Sam is trying hard to discredit due to his lack of love for what’s being said.”
    The problem here, Brad is perception, which could have been easily avoided by Selig appointing someone else.

    The Sheriff (Andrews) December 13, 2007, 11:02 am
  • LocklandSF, where did you get that list?
    If that shit is real, I now REALLY hate Eric Gagne!

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 11:02 am
  • Brad I tried to make that clear in my post. I am not discrediting what is being said about clemens as a yankee, in fact I believe it as much as it pains me. My point was that it was interesting that there was a specific cut off point as to when he changed teams. All Im asking is how much did he dig into the sox vs the other teams. (by other teams i dont mean yankees only.) Im less concerned about Mitchell being on a witchhunt for a specific player or team than i am about him not being as vigorous in his investigation of the team he has a financial interest in.

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 11:02 am
  • Lockland, did you just make that list up?
    DR, interesting point about Creep. What other groups fit into the shitty beginning, good career after category?

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:03 am
  • I wonder about the players who used HGH before it was banned will be named. It will look bad, but they weren’t in actual violation of anything.
    I also will be interested to see if Mitchell named any high profile Red Sox players. Canseco is his own deal who played for a whole bunch of teams and is the most famous admitted juicer of all time, but Crawford and Jer. Giambi are pretty small potatoes. But I think given the very real nature of Mitchell’s conflict of interest in the investigation, there will always be a huge shadow of doubt over the “naming and shaming” of players of other teams unless prime time Sox players are in there as well.
    That may or may not be fair, but that’s pretty much the situation Selig created when he picked the lead investigator from the payroll of one of the game’s marquee franchises.

    Mark (YF) December 13, 2007, 11:04 am
  • Lockland, what’s the source on that???

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 11:04 am
  • Emailed to my by a friend, rumor is the list came off of Blooberg.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 11:05 am
  • on the conference call, A-Rod could say anything and no one will report it because of the Mitchell report:
    “I wear purple lipstick. Derek Jeter and I hate each other. Greed is good. F*ck Compton. Tim Dog is my motherf*ckin’ name! Any questions?”

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:05 am
  • if its off a Bloomberg its probably made up by some trader with too much time on his hand.

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 11:06 am
  • Come on, Lockland. Where did you get it?
    Albert Pujols?? Man oh man.
    And Mo Vaughn. And Jason Varitek. :-( Sad day. If true, of course.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 11:09 am
  • The only reason I posted the list was that, well, it’s all seems plausible, the number of names seems pretty close.
    I don’t know, call it hunch, but that list looks right to me.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 11:10 am
  • That list looks like BS, but what do I know?

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:10 am
  • How about Johnny Damon? That would send shockwaves though the hub.

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 11:11 am
  • Well, if someone made it up, they went through a lot of time and effort finding all the people who have been suspended for PED use or otherwise admitted it publicly, and then managed to find a believable list of all the other players you would most likely believe took PEDs.
    Of course, maybe that’s proof that it’s untrue. It looks too unsurprising.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 11:11 am
  • No, Andrews. You are not in the minority. He has lost a lot since becoming ESPN’s poster boy for baseball reporting.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 11:11 am
  • Didn’t a “source” say there’s no current Mets named? I see Ramon Castro on Lockland’s list…I do agree it’s pretty close to what I’d expect.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 11:12 am
  • Rich Garces! Hahaha
    Surprised about veritek. Shame, shame.

    RS Fanbase December 13, 2007, 11:12 am
  • “It looks too unsurprising”
    That’s my feeling about that list. It just looks like someone’s pool.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:13 am
  • If Tejada is on the list then I don’t understand why the Astros would accept the trade yesterday.
    Smells fishy to me.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 11:13 am
  • Troy Glaus evidently did enough steroids for two people!

    Kazz December 13, 2007, 11:13 am
  • That would send shockwaves though the hub.
    Really? I think most Sox fans already hate him, so I don’t know that it’s as big a deal as someone like Varitek — who interestingly enough has far more value in his handling of the pitching staff than his bat. Although his bat was key down the stretch in 2004.
    I’d rather it be Damon and Varitek off the ’04 team than Ortiz or Ramirez though.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 11:14 am
  • The names on that list are too perfect (except garces!). I’m buying it until informed otherwise.

    RS Fanbase December 13, 2007, 11:14 am
  • I like Gammons a lot, but sometimes he can get on my nerves. His man-love for the Red Sox sometimes gets in the way of his analysis. While I thought the announcement of A-Rod opting out during the World Series was cheap, Gammons acted as though Rodriguez took over the airwaves and slaughtered puppies on camera.

    Jay-YF December 13, 2007, 11:15 am
  • Any reasons why Clemens and Pettitte are the only names leaked so far?

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:15 am
  • And Mo Vaughn. And Jason Varitek. :-( Sad day. If true, of course…
    I’ve thought this for awhile.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 11:16 am
  • Tek would be the real dagger in the back, but, being a Red Sox fan, I can’t help but give him a free ride on everything, no matter what.

    Kazz December 13, 2007, 11:16 am
  • Paul even if sox fans hate Damon now there is no disputing he was central to the 2004 win. People here have questioned the yankees win in 03 simply because PED user Giambi hit a few big HRs. The same standard would have to be applied no?

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 11:18 am
  • Because Clemens in the biggest one, and Pettitte goes along cause they use the same trainer.
    I’m genuinely sad about Pettitte.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 11:19 am
  • Oh, my favorite argument is about to begin about how previous championships are now invalidated! Yea!!!
    Let’s stop it now.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:20 am
  • Not that this makes it any better, but a lot of the stuff I’m reading is saying that MOST of these players used HGH simply to recover from injury faster, isolated incidents, not habitual use.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 11:21 am
  • Nick: To be fair, the RS have more recent championships to invalidate than the Yankees do.
    *obvious jab*

    Kazz December 13, 2007, 11:21 am
  • Sam, the same standard should be applied. Damon’s superman-like performance in Game 7 makes the win a little less earnest, though Game 7 in 2004 was a MUCH closer game, and Damon sucked for the ALCS before Game 7 so I guess it kinda balances it out.
    LIke someone above said, I would MUCH rather Damon and Varitek are named than Ortiz and Manny.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 11:21 am
  • I dont think its invalidated at all, sorry if thats what I implied. I just think that certain people here have made that point and it could now be applied to their own team.
    Sorry i even brought it up.

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 11:21 am
  • the thing is that I would be more sad if any of these players were implicated as being wife-beaters.
    Andy Pettitte will probably be booed more than Brett Myers next year.
    Justice served!

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:22 am
  • Oh, I’m not lashing out at just you Sam. I saw other people preparing rationalizations for the counter argument, and I just wanted to nip it in the bud. Sorry to be so angry about it.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:23 am
  • That should say Game 7 in 2003 was much closer.
    But Nick is right, the entire invalidation of previous championships is a bad road to go down.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 11:23 am
  • Maybe Clemens was leaked first because it sends a signal right away that nothing sacred will be protected.
    Maybe Pettitte thought his testicles were too large and used drugs because he could no longe live with the discomfort.

    DR December 13, 2007, 11:25 am
  • Yeah, Damon was actually not central to the ALCS rally, and though his 6 RBI got a lot of press, the big hit of Game 7 was Ortiz’ first-inning home run. Derek Lowe also allowed just one hit and was taken out because the lead was so big, so I don’t feel too bad about that.
    And, like Nick said, we just can’t do the invalidation thing. For individual awards or stats, maybe, like they do in the Olympics or college basketball, but team accomplishments are just that. For the record, I’ve never considered the Yankees’ wins any less valid because of Giambi or Sheffield or Lawton (snicker). Well, deep inside I have, but that’s where the irrational thoughts stay.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 11:25 am
  • Clemens was leaked first because he was the biggest name, plain and simple.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 11:26 am
  • “Maybe Pettitte thought his testicles were too large and used drugs because he could no longe live with the discomfort.”
    I’d respect him if that were his defense. It would be a Rovian strategy that just might work!

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:26 am
  • Nick – It would definitely humble the insecure sports radio hosts.

    DR December 13, 2007, 11:27 am
  • I’m really surprised and disappointed about Pettitte, if that’s true. I’ve always considered him one of the “good guys.”

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 11:27 am
  • Pettitte’s name on there concerns me less than others. I just dont see him as a major PED user and I cant see him using over the last few years. Im sure this is a product of my pinstriped goggles but he doesnt have the body type or game that shows me he benefitted alot from juicing.

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 11:28 am
  • Paul, it doesn’t make him a bad guy. Good people make mistakes in judgment. But the larger point is that we don’t know these people personally.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:29 am
  • Paul, it’s good to know I’m not the only SF that likes Pettitte!

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 11:29 am
  • “Mikey, Pettitte did it because he has big balls! I can live with that! Big balls are big balls! But this Clemens thing is a joke!”
    “Agreed, Dog. Agreed.”

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:31 am
  • Im sure this is a product of my pinstriped goggles but he doesnt have the body type or game that shows me he benefitted alot from juicing.
    Sam, Pettitte is a pretty big guy :-/

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 11:31 am
  • Pettitte and Clemens were on the cover of New York newspapers for using while they were on the Astros. Does anyone remember why that died away so quickly? I seem to recall the source being faulty, but if they are on the list, the rumors were out there.

    DR December 13, 2007, 11:31 am
  • By the way, ESPN just reported that Pettitte took steroids between 1998-2003, when he was with the Yankees the first go-around, not last year.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 11:32 am
  • http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,216899,00.html
    It seems it stemmed from the Grimsley saga

    DR December 13, 2007, 11:33 am
  • Jason Grimsely accused Clemens, Pettitte and Tejada in that affidavit to the IRS that was released after he stopped cooperating.
    According to the Daily News, Clemens is tied to steroids and HGH, while Pettitte is tied to HGH.
    it doesn’t make him a bad guy. Good people make mistakes in judgment.
    Well, you know what I mean. That’s why I put it in quotes.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 11:34 am
  • DR, I remember the rumours flying about both of them years ago. I always hoped Pettitte was clean, but I feared the worst.
    And Sam, I don’t think this makes Pettitte a “bad guy”, but I’m dissappointed that he did them.
    Clemens and Damon, however… hooray shautenfreuda! (spelling?)

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 11:34 am
  • I have a sealed envelope with ten names on it, written yesterday. Disclosure later!

    SF December 13, 2007, 11:34 am
  • DR, I was going to say they were in the Grimsley affidavit. The news today is not exactly surprising to me. I never thought of Pettitte as a perfect moral being in the first place. Seems like a nice guy though before and even now.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:35 am
  • I see on ESPN.com that Mitchell Report coverage is going to be from 1-7pm. Ugh.
    SIX hours of the same guys saying the same things over and over again. Can’t wait.

    Jay-YF December 13, 2007, 11:36 am
  • agreed, Jay.
    I’m thinking I might just turn off the PC, the radio, and not check in at the cafeteria to see anything about it.
    then again, naaaaaaaaa.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 11:39 am
  • Waiting till there’s an official list to react…officially. Tek would be kind of a bummer, but he’s not a personal favorite for me. I know some people will be very distressed, though.
    I’m still just hoping Papi and Manny are not, not, NOT on the official list.

    Devine December 13, 2007, 11:39 am
  • “People can say Bud was just trying to cover his butt or take care of his legacy or whatever,” Selig said, according to the Tribune. “I say [bleep] it. This needed to be done, and now we’ve done it.
    Hehe, it’s hard to imagine Selig saying that. He might have said, “[Bleep] it. The rest of baseball is saying, “Oh, [bleep].”

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 11:39 am
  • Does lack of inclusion really mean anything though Devine?

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 11:40 am
  • The speculation about Clemens didn’t need the media, but I don’t remember the Pettitte rumors predating Grimsley. Oh well. Thanks for the answers. What am I supposed to think when I see Pettitte’s doe eyes staring at me from the subway urging me to be saved? Maybe it comes from a guilt heart.
    Where is Garrett Anderson and Polanco? Not to be smearing people by throwing out names, but they definitely have suspiciously sized heads. Kevin Mench seems to just be like that though.

    DR December 13, 2007, 11:41 am
  • Tek would be kind of a bummer, but he’s not a personal favorite for me.
    That’s how I feel, too, Devine. I’ve never been as in-love (platonically, of course) with Tek as other Sox fans. Not unappreciative, just not in the top five or 10 on the team for me.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 11:41 am
  • Sam’s point about inclusion is spot-on. I said this yesterday. Nobody will be exonerated today. Suspect away!

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:42 am
  • No, Sam, but it’s better than being on it.

    Devine December 13, 2007, 11:42 am
  • I have the biggest head of anyone I know.
    Caveat: I am a big steroid user.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:43 am
  • I don’t see how any champiosnhips, wins, or anything else can be “invalidated.” Even if the report releases 80 names, I think everyone will have to acknowledge that this is just the tip of the iceberg for PED users over the last 15 years or so. Buster Olney reported (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=olney_buster&id=3153050) that in 2003 alone, over 100 active players tested positive on league’s survey testing. It will just be considered part of the landscape of the era.

    Mark (YF) December 13, 2007, 11:43 am
  • Tek burns a ‘lil. I won’t lie, I love catchers. Not like fireballing shut down aces, but catchers are the heart of the team. That said, I forgot about Tek’s bat a long time ago. Just sit behind home plate, buddy.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 11:43 am
  • I knew it, Nick! Your writing took a big jump in humor and quality right around August 2006. I was always suspicious about that…

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 11:44 am
  • Paul, you rat! We trained together! And now you’re saying we didn’t share that bathroom stall. This is roid delusion!

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:46 am
  • Sorry Nick, I win the big head competition!
    I am dissapointed in AP,but I won’t stop liking him or rooting for him. There are still Shawne Merriman fans right?

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 11:46 am
  • Still kind of disappointed at AP though. Ah well.

    Lar December 13, 2007, 11:47 am
  • NFL players who use steroid don’t take image hits for some reason.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:47 am
  • Yeah Mark, unless it comes out that the entire 40-man roster of a championship team used steroids, I think we can avoid going down that road.
    Paul, your posting performance has increased GREATLY in the last several months. I’m watching you, buddy.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 11:48 am
  • Does this rank as a good day or just a Thursday for Barry Bonds? The revelation of new names takes some of the heat off, no?
    Also, it will be interesting to see what percentage of the list consists of pitchers and hitters. Most of the big news recently has involved pitchers.

    DR December 13, 2007, 11:49 am
  • I’M telling you that Paul was the one who introduced me to the stuff!

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:50 am
  • My dilemma:
    I keep the baseball cards of particularly likable or talented athletes in binders (as opposed to the usual whatever-count boxes), but over the years have removed the proven or probable PED users — Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro. It’s not particularly rational, and it’s not innocent-til-guilty, but it’s my collection, dang it, and I’ll include who I want. But I could really end up with a depleted collection if I adhere to that standard. Clemens and Pettitte would be out, never mind the binder I have solely for the 2004 and 07 Red Sox teams.
    Oh well… Decisions, decisions.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 11:50 am
  • Phil, shouldn’t you not throw stones while in a glass house?
    Let’s wait for the list, bro. Then we can argue about it until the sun goes down.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 11:51 am
  • I had a medical prescription, Nick. What’s your excuse?

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 11:51 am
  • So is there an OPS+ that adjust for roids affected stats? ;)
    What does this do to contracts and stuff?

    Lar December 13, 2007, 11:53 am
  • “Does this rank as a good day or just a Thursday for Barry Bonds?”
    A good day is when his testes drop for a minute. But, I do think this will be a revelation to many people: Barry Bonds is not the only player who used steroids.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:53 am
  • LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 11:53 am
  • I love AP, but 5 years isn’t exactly a single mistake, is it?

    Lar December 13, 2007, 11:54 am
  • “I had a medical prescription, Nick. What’s your excuse?”
    you convinced me that I had Diabetes.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:54 am
  • Lockland, well done!

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:55 am
  • That list is now on WNBC

    Brad December 13, 2007, 11:56 am
  • wait, Barry Bonds took steroids?!
    I sure hope he isnt on this list, it would shatter my image of him.

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 11:57 am
  • I still don’t believe that list.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 11:57 am
  • Well, we’ll know the truth in 2 hours…truth about veracity of that list, that is.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 11:59 am
  • Cute Phil, run along now.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 11:59 am
  • George Mitchell once turned down an offer to be a Supreme Court Justice. I’m nearly one hundred percent certain he knows what will hold water in court, and what won’t. He’s not going to tarnish anyone that he knows he can’t nail down if it comes to it.
    I’m sure he knows the law in and out. If anyone is on the list, and fights it because they want to appear innoncent, they’re going to be under the proverbial microscope in the media, at which time the truth will probably be revealed.
    I will venture that anyone on this list probably can be connected one way or another, and they know it.
    Mitchell isn’t going to court over any of this.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:00 pm
  • I strongly suggest nobody goes to the link that Phil posted for me.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 12:00 pm
  • I wonder if any current analysts will be on the list and if so, what will happen to them? I hope this is the end of Luis Gonzalez in the broadcast booth during the playoffs.

    DR December 13, 2007, 12:01 pm
  • EEI is reporting that Bloomberg is denying the release of that list. They said they had nothing to do with it.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:01 pm
  • Brad nailed it, if any player brings this to court, they better be DAMN sure they are not only 100% innocent, but that they also don’t have any skeletons in their closet that they don’t want revealed.
    Say what you want about Mitchell, he’s a smart, smart guy.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 12:02 pm
  • Hasn’t Phil’s IP been banned, since he did post under the hated “w00t” earlier?

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:03 pm
  • Phil, Rivera’s throwing error cost the Yankees another ring. Let’s not go there, as Nick said.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 12:06 pm
  • Right, Lockland. He’s a states attorney, and a very, very smart guy. Any player who publicly refutes the findings of his investigation is going to have to deal with the public exploitation of all the smutty details. Mitchell knows full well that if this happens he has a paper trail on each of them a mile long in one way or another, and if he didn’t, they wouldn’t be on the list at all.
    Mitchell is one thousand percent safe here. No player, agent, or scummy lawyer looking to make a dime is going to get the upper hand on him over this.
    And really, any player who is aware of what this about (which they ALL are), isn’t going to jump at the chance to have all their private information and records made public, or have ESPN reporting every little detail of their infraction.
    It could get messy for anyone who lies.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:07 pm
  • Phil,
    While I want to agree with you, I don’t think Mitchell is dumb enough to open himself up to heresay arguments when the stakes are so high. He either has first hand testimony willing to testify in court, or money trails that lead to big-time bank accounts with players names on it.
    He’s too smart for that. He’s not going to risk his own excellent reputation for guys using HGH.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:11 pm
  • As Brad notes, “Phil” is a name-shifting troll. Do not respond.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 12:15 pm
  • I’m a Player and all they have are the words of a criminal and canceled checks, I’m calling my lawyer.
    And, if you’re fully innocent and know it, you have every right to do so. But, in the same action, be prepared to be in the spotlight like Barry was for a few months. I’m doubting anyone does that. They might come out, and say “I’m innoncent, and have no idea what this is about” but in the end, they know exactly what it’s about, and they’ll keep it low until all this blows over.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:15 pm
  • That list is now being disputed by MLB officials.
    http://www.wnbc.com/sports/14845845/detail.html

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 12:17 pm
  • So I guess none of us has much work to do today… :-)

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 12:18 pm
  • giddyup.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:18 pm
  • Holiday slow down for me here, I needed something to fill my day. There is only so much Dolphin Olympics 2 a guy can play.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 12:20 pm
  • So um, dare I ask what Suzyn’s response will be to the Clemens allegations?
    A solitary tear, perhaps?

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 12:20 pm
  • work? this is work.

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 12:20 pm
  • Suzyn’s response will be her usual “Roger will be Roger.” You can ascribe meaning to it depending on your own point of view.

    DR December 13, 2007, 12:23 pm
  • I guess we’re all just waiting now…

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 12:27 pm
  • Work? Well, my work currently involves writing my thesis, so I’m merely multitasking. Yeah, that’s right…*shifty eyes*

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 12:28 pm
  • I’m happy that the list is being refuted. Not that I think it’ll be much different, but I would just feel more comfortable commenting on the actual real thing.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:28 pm
  • I know it’s not exactly an objective piece of work but some time ago SurvivingGrady.com did a comparison of Roger’s head and body size from his first few years to lately and you’d have a hard time saying he doesn’t now have the body type to be using ‘roids.

    rootbeerfloat December 13, 2007, 12:29 pm
  • My boss just sent us home, but I think I’ll stick around for awhile. ha.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:29 pm
  • It is REALLY snowing here. Hard.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:30 pm
  • Oh Lord. *switches off ESPNNews*

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 12:31 pm
  • Brad – Where are you that it’s snowing so hard?

    rootbeerfloat December 13, 2007, 12:32 pm
  • Ok everyone, good practice today, nice hustle, good work on offense and defense, everyone knows their assignments well, so just relax for a while now.
    The real game starts at 2:00.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 12:32 pm
  • Yeah, Paul, this thread has gone off! I’m pretty much just waiting for the stupid 2:00 thing to happen. Hope they won’t keep us waiting long once it starts to get to the effing names. Which Nick was right about yesterday, BTW. “Just give us the names!” indeed.

    Devine December 13, 2007, 12:32 pm
  • Snow… I miss snow. We had frost this morning. For a second, I pretended it was snow.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 12:32 pm
  • Love the LoHud commenters saying if Ortiz isn’t on the list, then it has no credibility. Nothing like a little guilt presumption to go with your irrational hatred.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 12:33 pm
  • I really think it’s time for Bud Selig to step down. His credibility is nil with the fans, the media, Congress and probably the players as well.
    Selig made the ridiculous statement in the 90s that he was not aware of any steroid problem in baseball, despite the fact that his predecessor, Fay Vincent, began speaking out about this in his final year as Commissioner.
    He’s also presided over other gaffes, large and small, like the infamous tied All-Star game.
    Nobody likes Selig. He is not a good face for the sport, which has been eclipsed by football during his reign as the national pastime.
    What a shame that Bart Giamatti died so prematurely. The whole mess might have been averted.

    Hudson December 13, 2007, 12:33 pm
  • Coach Lockland, I have to do some last second “stretching” in the bathroom. Don’t worry, Skip, I’ll be good and ready for the first pitch.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 12:34 pm
  • Nick, stop tapping my foot!

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 12:36 pm
  • LoHud guys are pissed is all. They should be. But to accuse a guy who put up the majority of his numbers under the microscopic eye of the media, baseball and the world is a bit of a stretch. It’s not like he wouldn’t have been a testing target for baseball officials.
    It’s stupid to assume this. If they wanna say he was on the juice in Minny, I’d say that he was better off without them.
    Ortiz just doesn’t work, and I haven’t been worried about him at all. For all intensive purposes, he has been the face of baseball since Bonds went down in a flame, so I wouldnt’ think anyone would be so stupid.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:37 pm
  • You know who else had a wide stance? Jeff Bagwell.

    FenSheaParkway December 13, 2007, 12:38 pm
  • Paul, why do you ever bother reading comments at LoHud? Everytime I cruise over there I feel my IQ drop about 30 points.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 12:38 pm
  • Stretch well, and that goes for everyone, I don’t want any of you to pull a hammy.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 12:38 pm
  • You know who else had a wide stance? Jeff Bagwell.

    FenSheaParkway December 13, 2007, 12:38 pm
  • Also, I find it sort of pathetic, frankly, that YFs are trying to inocculate their team from criticism by imputing bias to Mitchell.
    Say what you will about Mitchell, but he is nothing if not sober, to a fault. If anything, I’d expect him to go out of his way to make *sure* he names at least one Sox player — if he can find any.
    I expect some Red Sox to be named. But if none are named, I will expect that to mean simply that no credible evidence was turned up on Boston players, despite a hard look.

    Hudson December 13, 2007, 12:38 pm
  • you guys are taking that joke toooooo far.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:39 pm
  • wiser words were never spoken, YM. That site is filled with some of the least inetelligent people on this planet.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:40 pm
  • Will I eventually be able to buy this report at Strand, like the 9/11 Commission Report? If that work of minor importance gets published, I don’t see how this generation defining report can get short shrift.

    DR December 13, 2007, 12:42 pm
  • you know they guy who brakes like crazy on the interstate with nothing in front of him? Or the guy who blames the teachers for his child’s behavior? Or the guy who sells all his stolen merchandise on Ebay?
    Yeah, he’s on LoHud.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:42 pm
  • OK, a little math exercise before 2 pm. I read on ESPN that A-Rod $275 deal was just finalized. And then this:
    “Rodriguez receives salaries of $27 million next year, $32 million in 2009 and 2010, $31 million in 2011, $29 million in 2012, $28 million in 2013, $25 million in 2014, $21 million in 2015 and $20 million in each of the final two years.”
    There’s also something about a $10 mil signing bonus but this doesn’t add up to $275 to me. And I’m kind of good at math. Help?

    rootbeerfloat December 13, 2007, 12:43 pm
  • To cheer myself up over the news about AP, I just bought 2008 ticket plan. Needed something to ease the pain!

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 12:43 pm
  • Question to you all:
    Those who are proven to use steroids will ostensibly have their HoF chances severly hurt or altogether squashed. But is it not impossible to kep Bonds and Clemens, just to nam the two most glaring cases (if indeed Clemens is named) out of the HoF?
    Would you all support a “if you are proven to have used you should be inellgible” approach by HoF voters?

    IronHorse (yf) December 13, 2007, 12:44 pm
  • Sorry, blame Typepad for the double post.
    I’ve been waiting for this day for a long time. I’ve been morbidly curious, sure, but I don’t think today is a “sad” day for Baseball, nor is schadenfreude a particularly appropriate response. It just IS, and I hope this is just the beginning of us Baseball fans getting what it is.
    Okay, back to the TPS reports.

    FenSheaParkway December 13, 2007, 12:44 pm
  • no, not Tek, anyone but Tek….NOOOOOO!!!!
    why Tek…whyyyyyyy??????

    Lyndsay December 13, 2007, 12:45 pm
  • // Surely no one is so dumb as to pay for illegal drugs with a check or a credit card? //
    Two words: Paul Byrd.

    Hudson December 13, 2007, 12:45 pm
  • Hahaha, Brad. To be fair, I could say the same thing about the 38pitches.com commenters, at least from the one or two times I went there.
    Brilliant, Kurkjian just brought up the amazing coincidence of ARod’s announcement this am. Well done, Timmy.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 12:47 pm
  • FSP: I got the TPS reference and love it…I hope no one steals your stapler…

    IronHorse (yf) December 13, 2007, 12:47 pm
  • Brad…
    “For all intents and purposes.”
    Sorry buddy, had to. ;-)

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 12:48 pm
  • // Surely no one is so dumb as to pay for illegal drugs with a check or a credit card? //
    Two words: Paul Byrd.
    // Rich Garces //
    Pffffft. A fine mist of coffee just sprayed from my mouth. El Guapo had probably the least muscle mass of any major leaguer in history.

    Hudson December 13, 2007, 12:48 pm
  • // Surely no one is so dumb as to pay for illegal drugs with a check or a credit card? //
    Let’s not forget that Robert Parrish was arrested for having pounds of marijuana mailed directly to his house.

    IronHorse (yf) December 13, 2007, 12:48 pm
  • “It was a “Jump to Conclusions” mat. You see, it would be this mat that you would put on the floor… and would have different CONCLUSIONS written on it that you could JUMP TO.”

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 12:49 pm
  • IH – I think the only thing to keep someone out of the HoF should be betting/throwing games. Clemens and Bonds are in. But the HoF museum next door would also have a complete documentation of the era and its pitfalls of course. Full history of the game, and all that.

    FenSheaParkway December 13, 2007, 12:49 pm
  • IH, that’s a good question. I really think that this report does more to un-tarnish specific baseball players than it does to tarnish them. Many will look on with forgiving eyes because of the rampant use by so many people. Many will revert to the “they had to use them – everyone was!” argument in support of guys like Clemens. With so many names being on this list, I think it lessens the overall impact that it has on the individual named. Several will be looked on as cheaters and such, but in reality, one man is just another name among a list of names. The proof for each of them still playing is how they perform from here on out, not how they performed when everyone was cheating.
    For example, if King Albert continues to put up his numbers for another five years, in full disclosure of a testing procedure, it’s hard to argue his status among other HOFers. But, if there is a significant dropoff in performance levels, this report did what it was supposed to: leveled the field.
    The individual impact to any player named is small compared to the overall impact of everyone being named.
    That’s what I think anyhow.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:50 pm
  • In less depressing news, A-Rod says all the right things in the conference call. He called it a debacle and Boras wasn\’t involved in the negotiation.

    Rob (YF) December 13, 2007, 12:50 pm
  • “That is the worst idea I’ve ever heard in my life, Tom.”
    “Yes, yes, it’s horrible…this idea.”

    Devine December 13, 2007, 12:50 pm
  • hahah.
    That’s funny. I really should preview before calling anyone else un-intelligent.
    My bad.
    Lockland, you’re an ass!

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:51 pm
  • I have a date tonight…gonna show her my OH face – you know, “oh, oh”…

    IronHorse (yf) December 13, 2007, 12:51 pm
  • FSP’s Boss: “Hi, FSP. What’s happening? We need to talk about your TPS reports”
    FSP:”Yeah. The coversheet. I know, I know. Uh, Bill talked to me about it.”
    FSP’s Boss:
    “Yeah. Did you get that memo?”

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 12:51 pm
  • rbf – it adds up to $275 Million for me

    VicSF December 13, 2007, 12:52 pm
  • I don’t know why I do it, YM. It’s a compulsion.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 12:52 pm
  • // Surely no one is so dumb as to pay for illegal drugs with a check or a credit card? //
    Let’s not forget that Robert Parrish was arrested for having pounds of marijuana mailed directly to his house.

    In Parrish’s defense, he was stoned at the time.

    Tyrel SF December 13, 2007, 12:53 pm
  • John -YF, Back up in your a*s with the resurrection….

    IronHorse (yf) December 13, 2007, 12:53 pm
  • I f***in’ love that movie…and I haven’t seen it in like a year and a half. I must have watched it twice a month in college.
    “It’s not that I’m lazy, Bob, it’s that I just don’t care.”

    Devine December 13, 2007, 12:54 pm
  • RBF – I’m on the Connnecticut Shorline, but I’m getting ready to go upstate to do some hunting, where it’s coming down like cats and dogs. I think I’ll skip the drama of the whole thing and chime in a little later.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:54 pm
  • Tyrel: Good one – lol here…

    IronHorse (yf) December 13, 2007, 12:54 pm
  • A good friend of my father was involved in the Parish bust, he said and I quote…
    “You could smell it from outside the delivery truck, like a the guy wrapped it in toilet paper then sent it.”

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 12:55 pm
  • “I wouldn’t really say I’ve been missing it”

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:56 pm
  • // I think most people are saying Bonds should/will get to the Hall based on his pre-usage numbers. //
    How about the numbers Pete Rose put up pre-gambling?

    Hudson December 13, 2007, 12:56 pm
  • Thanks Iron Horse, I try.
    Regarding the “Oh Face” guy, anyone see him playing the actor who played the Oh Face guy on the Sarah Silverman Show? Pretty funny.

    Tyrel SF December 13, 2007, 12:57 pm
  • “The ratio of people to cake is too big.”
    Snowing like crazy here in NJ…WOW!

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 12:57 pm
  • Man, I loved The Chief. He was NBA’s version of Willie Nelson. “Yeah, I smoke a little grass, so what”?

    Brad December 13, 2007, 12:58 pm
  • The scene where they destroy the fax machine in the field is possibly a top 10 moment in film history.
    There, I said it.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 12:59 pm
  • Mostly sleeting here with an occasional snowflake here and there. Meh.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 1:00 pm
  • Not that I have ever bought or smoked weed…But if you are ROBERT FRICKIN PARRISH can’t you just have someone bring it to yout house?

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 1:00 pm
  • “if you are ROBERT FRICKIN PARRISH can’t you just have someone bring it to yout house?”
    John-YF, I suspect that in about 1 hour there will be hundreds/thousands/millions of people asking similar questions about every player named in the Mitchell report. Sorry to bring that topic back up – Office Space references and pntificating about marijuana in toilet paper is much more enjoyable…

    IronHorse (yf) December 13, 2007, 1:03 pm
  • I actually love the opening. The whole rapping in the car and acting tough was hilarious.
    On another note, today will be the first day I get to try my four wheel drive out. I promise not the be the LoHud poster (or 38pitches.com) who is headed down the highway at 75mph in a blizzard and pushing people out of the way because he has 4×4! ha.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 1:03 pm
  • This entire direction of this post bothers me. I will address this later, at some point after the release, but suffice it to say that I find the “naming of names” to be a dirty, undignified business and a red herring. Players are responsible for their actions, but the situation we have here is a product of greater forces. I wasn’t particularly interested in reading about the guy who looted a couple of tv’s after Katrina.

    YF December 13, 2007, 1:03 pm
  • The NJ snow reports are actualyl encouraging to me – on the east side of Manhattan where I work we have nasty rain…and plenty of it. I would WELCOME some snow frankly.

    IronHorse (yf) December 13, 2007, 1:04 pm
  • // A-Rod will be in on the call. Rushing to announce it before 2 pm… //
    That doesn’t suggest A-Rod juices. Rather, it’s a classic organizational p.r. ploy to put out competing good news when something bad is about to hit the papers.
    But trying to drown out the Mitchell report will be like trying to drown the Jolly Green Giant in a thimble.

    Hudson December 13, 2007, 1:04 pm
  • Well, I have bought and smoked weed and I can tell you this, there is no chance in hell I would ever have anyone send it to me, that’s just stupid.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 1:04 pm
  • Yes it is, Lockland, yes it is (top 10 in film history moment–equivalent to, say, Luke Skywalker blowing up the Death Star).
    Having bought and smoked weed myself, John, yes, I think it’s a safe bet that the dude could have managed to find someone to get it to his house. What an idiot.
    “Corporate accounts payable, Mina speaking…just a MOment…corporate accounts payable, Mina speaking…just a MOment…”

    Devine December 13, 2007, 1:06 pm
  • So, what should they do, YF? Hold a press conference saying that we found “some guys”?

    Brad December 13, 2007, 1:07 pm
  • I read on Bloomberg that Grady Little did steroids because he thought it would enhance his performance as a manager.

    Hudson December 13, 2007, 1:09 pm
  • YF: I get the concern with naming names speculatively. I am not sure I get the Katrina analogy, but understand you will explain later as you note. I would only say that the guy who looted TVs post-Katrina was not in any way responsible for Katrina hitting in the first place. IF (and only if) the players named in this report did buy, distribute, and/or take PEDs, they are in part responsible, as are the other enablors in the MLB business. Together they have all brought Katrina onto the sport of baseball.
    But perhaps I am missing the point you will be making later.

    IronHorse (yf) December 13, 2007, 1:09 pm
  • Strangely, if my boss was a character in Office Space, I think she’d be a cross between Milton and Samir. Don’t ask.
    Anyway…
    “Several will be looked on as cheaters and such, but in reality, one man is just another name among a list of names.”
    “Players are responsible for their actions, but the situation we have here is a product of greater forces.”
    Brad and YF, I think you’re right on here, and it’s why I’ve been looking forward to this day. It isn’t about the individual names named, it’s about a shift in our focus and, more importantly, that of the Players Union and MLB as a whole. This isn’t about good guys and bad guys.

    FenSheaParkway December 13, 2007, 1:09 pm
  • “I suspect that in about 1 hour there will be hundreds/thousands/millions of people asking similar questions about every player named in the Mitchell report.”
    I am sorry IH, but I won’t be one of them. I simply just don’t care. This whole thing would hit home IF Mitchell was going to be able to provide documentation of failed drug tests. Without that I just don’t care what he has to say. I will read the list, but I will not put much stock in it. It’s not a complete list and it may not be 100% accurate. Instead these 80 guys will take the fall for 20 years of players who did the same thing. I love the game of baseball and I don’t advocate cheating, but unless you can provide me with tests that show positive results, I just don’t care.

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 1:10 pm
  • Names have to be named, otherwise the report has no deterrent effect. Unless players know that they are going to be shamed (and their agents know their clients’ values are going down) as a result of this behavior, it will continue.
    And I just want to say this now to YFs, *before* the report comes out and the spinning begins in earnest:
    Without an admittedly juiced Jason Giambi hitting a key home run, Aaron Boone never comes to the plate and the Red Sox go to the 2003 World Series (with a team that was possibly better than their 2004 club).

    Hudson December 13, 2007, 1:12 pm
  • Man, I must just be a creep. I’m totally looking forward to the wails of pain and outrage, red herring or no. Not looking forward to people’s individual pain, no one on this site or anything, nor any particular fanbase’s pain, but I like a circus that has no personal effect on me. We’ll see if it does have a personal effect on me fairly soon, though.

    Devine December 13, 2007, 1:13 pm
  • “Without an admittedly juiced Jason Giambi hitting a key home run, Aaron Boone never comes to the plate and the Red Sox go to the 2003 World Series (with a team that was possibly better than their 2004 club).”
    great great point! Excellent point. Thanks for that. Sure to build an interesting discussion.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 1:15 pm
  • Don’t make this a Red Sox/Yankees thing. You scenario can be applied to many key games. Who knows maybe there were some members of the 2004 Sox that were guilty of the same thing, we will never know the truth. This is a BASEBALL issue, not a Yankee/Red Sox issue.

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 1:15 pm
  • Yeah Hudson, come on man, let’s leave that to the ESPN boards and LoHuds of the world, it won’t do any good here.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 1:18 pm
  • Hudson, we discussed this above and felt that there was no point in going back down this path. Giambi’s status for that series is not important, the guy after him could have hit a HR too. If Damon is on that list what does that mean that his grand slam in 2004?

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 1:19 pm
  • I agree that it won’t help the discussion…and besides, the Giambi thing has been pointed out ad nauseum for years.

    Devine December 13, 2007, 1:23 pm
  • 37 minutes and counting!

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 1:23 pm
  • If there was a 100% foolproof way of going back and finding out who for certain took PED’s then fine wipe away the win. But there is no way of doing that. We will never know how many players on how many WC teams were involved. Today at 2:30 guy #81 will be somewhere popping champagne. It’s such a flawed system and many players will get their names dirtied because of it.

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 1:25 pm
  • // For the record, I’ve never considered the Yankees’ wins any less valid because of Giambi or Sheffield or Lawton (snicker). //
    In a *close* series, where one lucky crack of the bat can mean the difference between the end of a season and playing in the World Series, I do think that every little advantage makes a difference. And I’m prepared for the possibility that after 2 pm that argument might apply as much to the Sox and the Yanks…

    Hudson December 13, 2007, 1:25 pm
  • I’m going to wait to see what the report actually says before I make a comment. But, obviously, we should never have arrived here in the first place. I do feel that the entire situation is a product of the poisoned labor-owner relationship, so it’s a bit ironic that it was only last week Bowie Kuhn was elected to the HOF. Also, I’m not sure a holier-than-thou attitude from a general public hopped up on erection enhancers, and that has an elected government that has essentialy condoned corporate greed and made an art form of the half truth, is reasonable. Basically, we all got here together, like it or not. Hanging Roger Clemens or Barry Bonds doesn’t do much for me.

    YF December 13, 2007, 1:26 pm
  • SI.com is reporting Brian Roberts in there.

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 1:26 pm
  • Just because the list is not comprehensive doesn’t mean that those people should not be held responsible. The names are the juiciest part, but I would suspect there is not a section called “Naming Names.” The names most likely come up in discussing the drug culture that YF alluded to. Who were players connecting with and how did they get the drugs?
    You can make the argument about unseemliness if the names are simply dropped, but they are probably mentioned in a context.
    The gossip comes from fans. We are fans. Gossip is an important aspect of famdom.

    DR December 13, 2007, 1:31 pm
  • Or, to put it another way, let’s try another thought experiment:
    You have three teams: The X’s, the Y’s and the Z’s.
    On the X’s, all the roster players use steroids.
    On the Z’s, only one seldom-used middle reliever uses steroids.
    Team Y falls somewhere in the middle.
    So: Where on the continuum between the X’s and the Z’s do the Y’s have to fall before people start thinking their accomplishments are “invalidated?”
    How many players on the roster have to use, and how many of them key players, before those accomplishments are *tarnished* (as opposed to completely invalidated?

    Hudson December 13, 2007, 1:32 pm
  • In a close series, for all we know, the Coriolis Effect can create the necessary change in momentum. So yeah, it’s sort of futile to try to piece together what was the biggest shift.

    FenSheaParkway December 13, 2007, 1:33 pm
  • “Players are responsible for their actions, but the situation we have here is a product of greater forces”
    No. The primary force here is the players. Point fingers all you want at ownership for “allowing” it happen by turning a blind eye…or the players union for fighting testing.
    These are/were grown men, who wanted to improve their own performance, for their own benefit (be it statistical or monetary). They are the primary driving force behind the steroid era. Everything else is just blame deflection.
    I reject the Katrina TV looting analogy. Please, when you decide to explain your comment, clarify that part of it for me.

    VicSF December 13, 2007, 1:33 pm
  • Speaking of the Coriolis effect: is there Australian Rules Baseball, and do they go around the bases clockwise?

    FenSheaParkway December 13, 2007, 1:35 pm
  • // I don’t think Mitchell is dumb enough to open himself up to heresay [sic] arguments when the stakes are so high. //
    I’d also bet that when he accepted the assignment with MLB, his contract made sure he was indemnified to Kingdom Come. If anyone gets sued, it’s the League itself for commissioning the report.

    Hudson December 13, 2007, 1:38 pm
  • “The primary force here is the players.”
    I totally agree with this on the micro-level. But this is bigger than the mundane punishment of individuals. If we don’t see it as bigger, then we’re just going to be dealing with more mundane punishments, ad infinitum.

    FenSheaParkway December 13, 2007, 1:39 pm
  • I venture a guess as to what YF meant by the Katrina analogy:
    The culture of drugs (“Katrina” in YF’s analogy) enabled people to do things they perhaps wouldn’t normally do, just because it was so easy to do them. Thus, a random possibly decent guy finds himself looting TVs (“because everyone else is doing it”?), and a basically decent MLB player starts using drugs because hey, why not? Everyone else is doing it too!

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 1:40 pm
  • Hmm, that was a lot more rambling and incoherent than I thought. Sorry.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 1:42 pm
  • I was actually hoping that Santana would be on the list. then we could all sigh with relief and the whole trade thing would be over. and then I would laugh loudly and maniacally…
    am still hoping that Holliday and Tulowitski are on the “official” list. I am CONVINCED that Matt “Chubs” Holliday is juiced, and that Tulowitski dugout rage is unmistakable.
    somewhere A-Rod and Jeter are clinking glasses…

    Lyndsay December 13, 2007, 1:43 pm
  • Glasses of Zima?
    Sorry, I couldn’t resist.

    FenSheaParkway December 13, 2007, 1:45 pm
  • “The gossip comes from fans. We are fans. Gossip is an important aspect of famdom.”
    Gossip? Baseball is so much more then gossip. I will admit I love the trade rumors and all that, but this is going to tarnish the game. It’s going to have an affect on everything baseball worked for/built up since the strike. I love this game, not for the individuals and certainly not for the gossip. These players love the game too and that’s probably why some of them did this. An ENTIRE generation could be guilty of doing this and now we are going to single out 80 players? There will be zero benefit to this other then ESPN’s ratings will rise and more people will be turned off to a beautiful game. Again I will say Bud Selig will regret this decision.

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 1:46 pm
  • // If Damon is on that list what does that mean that his grand slam in 2004? //
    Remind me again what the final score of that game was?

    Hudson December 13, 2007, 1:47 pm
  • Hudson the grand slam made the game out of reach. It was a turning point in the game. If you dont want it applied to your team dont apply it to others. Without Damon the sox may not have even been in the playoffs to begin with. You see the problem with this exercise yet?

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 1:50 pm
  • also,um…no Gabe Kapler?

    Lyndsay December 13, 2007, 1:50 pm
  • “// If Damon is on that list what does that mean that his grand slam in 2004? //
    Remind me again what the final score of that game was?”
    Hypothetically speaking this is a boring conversation.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 1:51 pm
  • Guys, seriously, enough with this stuff, it’s pointless unless we have card hold facts about who was doing what and when, we will never have that.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 1:56 pm
  • Nick, funny how hysterically paranoid assertions of Mitchell’s alleged bias, or a completely bogus list of players, are evidently fair game for speculation and discussion — but the undisputed fact that Giambi was a user whose performance was improved in 2003, including one of the closest ALCSes ever, makes you yawn ostentatiously…

    Hudson December 13, 2007, 1:56 pm
  • Even then, it’s kind of pointless.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 1:56 pm
  • “But this is bigger than the mundane punishment of individuals”
    I disagree. Players took drugs to improve their performance. They did not take them because of meta issues like culture and acceptence, like can plausibly be argued for “regular” drug use. They didn’t take them because of their ease of acquisition or use either. They took them with a specific, “selfish” goal in mind. To perform better. If they had been convinced that eating 20 carrots a day improved their vision enough to hit 30 points higher, they would have done that too.
    I’m not saying this because I think the players are evil or even, really, cheaters. Many saw it as their only way to compete in a league where the use was/is rampant. Fine. But don’t blame ownership, the union, or society for it.

    VicSF December 13, 2007, 1:57 pm
  • Hudson, it’s hilarious. How many people on this site, no LoHud, are throwing out hysterically paranoid allegation of Mitchell’s alleged bias? I haven’t even mentioned it. But there is reason to suggest that he wasn’t the best choice for such a report. No?
    Maybe you should “discuss” your hypothetical situations on LoHud.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 1:59 pm
  • VicSF – I don’t agree that it’s just the players’ fault. If I tell my child that in my value system it’s not ok to steal money yet every time he brings home something new and shiny (that I heavily suspect he purchased with stolen money since he makes minimum wage at McD’s), I praise him and reward him, then the real message is, keep up the stealing kid.

    Anonymous December 13, 2007, 2:01 pm
  • why am i being blocked as a spammer?

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 2:02 pm
  • “But don’t blame ownership, the union, or society for it.”
    This investigation should have taken place 10 uears ago. You know why it wasn’t, because the affects of the steroids (McGwire/Sosa HR race) were benefitial to a game that took a HUGE hit in the early 90’s.

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 2:02 pm
  • I just got back from a meeting. What’d I miss? Any names yet?

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:03 pm
  • Hmmm, it’s on, so far just introductory whatnot.

    Devine December 13, 2007, 2:03 pm
  • What else is hilarious is your insistence that only game 7 of the ALCS in 2003 can be effected by PED use and all other situations just arent close enough or some other reason to render the same argument meaningless.

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 2:04 pm
  • OK, I got the PDF and scanned for Papi and Manny, nothing.
    Now Tek…..

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 2:04 pm
  • “Each of the 30 clubs has been involved…”

    Devine December 13, 2007, 2:04 pm
  • NO TEK!!!!!!!

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 2:04 pm
  • > don’t blame … society for it
    I don’t want this to devolve to a “think of the children” argument, and Vic, I think you are spot-on in the fact that people are accountable for their own actions, but the glamorizing and tacit acceptance of PEDs is absolutely, definitely a societal problem.

    attackgerbil December 13, 2007, 2:05 pm
  • http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2007/images/12/13/mitchell.report.pdf
    There’s the link to the Mitchell Report. Names start on page 127.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:05 pm
  • NO TROT!!!!

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 2:05 pm
  • Where’s the PDF, Lockland?!

    Devine December 13, 2007, 2:06 pm
  • Lockland – where’d you get the pdf?

    rootbeerfloat December 13, 2007, 2:06 pm
  • Varitek, Pujols, Damon, and Pudge aren’t in the document.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:06 pm
  • While I can see, and maybe even agree with, YF’s point about naming names being dirty and undignified, I will say that news often is dirty and undignified. This is news. We all have an interest in news. We all have an opinion on news. This is a thread to discuss our interest and opinion in the news that is happening as I type this. Nothing more.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 2:06 pm
  • Link to the PDF?
    —-
    // Even then, it’s kind of pointless. //
    Hmmm, here we are, all hopped up about a report that is going to name names of players who did steroids. But discuss the actual real-world effect of them doing performance enhancing drugs? That’s now pointless.
    Why should we care about steroids or HGH if we don’t believe they ever decide games, series, seasons, or are going to be shushed anytime a real consequence is raised?

    Hudson December 13, 2007, 2:07 pm
  • Ok, I’m running a lot of names and the list from earlier was WAY off.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 2:07 pm
  • Here’s the link to the report people!
    http://i.l.cnn.net/cnn/2007/images/12/13/mitchell.report.pdf

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:07 pm
  • “Later that summer, Clemens asked McNamee to inject him with Winstrol, which
    Clemens supplied. McNamee knew the substance was Winstrol because the vials Clemens gave
    him were so labeled. McNamee injected Clemens approximately four times in the buttocks over
    a several-week period with needles that Clemens provided. Each incident took place in
    Clemens’s apartment at the SkyDome. McNamee never asked Clemens where he obtained the
    steroids.”
    Clemens purchased the steroids himself.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:10 pm
  • “I have been a consultant to the owners of the Boston Red Sox since that club was
    acquired in 2002 by an ownership group led by John W. Henry. The club labels
    that position “director.” I am not and have never been involved in any way in
    baseball operations, and I have no vote on any decisions by the owners. I do not
    now hold, nor have I in the past ever held, any ownership or other equity interest
    in the Red Sox.”

    LocklandSF December 13, 2007, 2:11 pm
  • VicSF –
    Well, I’m certainly not arguing that we let the players off the hook, if that’s what you’re implying. It’s going to be a little tricky for Bud to mete out the punishments, what with this whole classroom of kids dropping their pencils at the same time, but I don’t think the whole lot of them will, or should, get off scot-free, just because there’s so many of them.
    The players cheated, or something like that, and there weren’t enough regulations and restrictions and deterrents to keep them from doing so. But if all we take away from this long episode in Baseball is “so-and-so’s a cheater, and he got punished”, then I don’t think we’ve really learned anything.

    FenSheaParkway December 13, 2007, 2:11 pm
  • According to the report, most of this is hearsay. HOWEVER, it does say that there are written checks as a paper trail.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:12 pm
  • Kevin Brown is on there! YEAHHH!!!!

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 2:12 pm
  • Well, talking to a trainer who actually does the injecting isn’t hearsay. That’s testimony, allowable in court.
    Former Red Sox util infielder Manny Alexander is named.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 2:14 pm
  • “During the 2001-02 offseason, Pettitte asked him about HGH. Mcnamee discouraged Pettitte from using HGH at that time.
    From April 21 to June 14, 2002, Pettitte was on the disabled list with elbow 395
    tendonitis. McNamee said that Pettitte called him while Pettitte was rehabilitating his elbow in Tampa, where the Yankees have a facility, and asked again about human growth hormone. Pettitte stated that he wanted to speed his recovery and help his team.
    :-(

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:14 pm
  • Suck it, Gagne.

    Devine December 13, 2007, 2:16 pm
  • And there’s Donnelly. Heh, I remember Gregg Zaun picking on Pedroia earlier this year…have at ye, Zaun!

    Devine December 13, 2007, 2:17 pm
  • Sounds like that was the only time he’s gotten stuff from McNamee, no? At least there’s no other clear mention of AP injectiing anything…

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 2:17 pm
  • My list, from the PDF document:
    Roger Clemens
    Andy Pettitte
    Barry Bonds
    Bobby Estalella
    Jason Giambi
    Jeremy Giambi
    Benito Santiago
    Gary Sheffield
    Randy Velarde
    Lenny Dykstra
    David Segui
    Larry Bigbie
    Brian Roberts
    Jack Cust
    Tim Laker
    Josias Manzanillo
    MORE COMING!

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:18 pm
  • An Expos bullpen catcher admitted to giving steroids to eight players, but:
    “We made a number of attempts to contact Perez, all without success. Because
    neither I nor any member of my staff had the opportunity to make our own assessment of Perez’s credibility, or to otherwise corroborate his statements, I have not identified the players for whom
    Perez allegedly obtained steroids, with one exception discussed later in this report.”
    There seems to at least been a minimal attempt to get first-hand information and verification. Not quite the witch hunt it’s been cracked up to be.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 2:19 pm
  • Chuck Knobloch
    Eric Gagné

    (SF) Hudson December 13, 2007, 2:20 pm
  • So at a glance:
    Clemens
    Andy
    David Justice
    Knoublach
    Tejada
    Sheffield
    Bonds
    Giambi (both)
    Brian Roberts
    Lo Duca
    Kevin Brown
    Zaun
    Todd Pratt
    Mo Vaughn
    Donnelly
    Gagne
    Ron Villone (we can safely say steroids didn’t work there…)

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 2:20 pm
  • Todd Hundley
    Mark Carreon
    Hal Morris
    Matt Franco
    Rondell White
    Chuck Knoblauch
    Jason Grimsley
    Greg Zaun
    David Justice
    F.P. Santangelo
    Glenallen Hill
    Mo Vaughn
    Denny Neagle
    Ron Villone
    Ryan Franklin
    Chris Donnels
    Todd Williams
    Phil Hiatt
    Todd Pratt
    Kevin Young
    Mike Lansing

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:20 pm
  • Cody McKay
    Kent Mercker
    Adam Piatt
    Jason Christiansen
    Stephen Randolph
    Jerry Hairston Jr.
    Paul Lo Duca
    Adam Riggs
    Bart Miadich

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:22 pm
  • The problem here again is that only the few specific rings that he and others were able to uncover are going to be in this report. There are bound to be so many other rings that werent found. I mean Brett Boone isnt in this report !

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 2:22 pm
  • Fernando Vina
    Kevin Brown
    Eric Gagne
    Mike Bell
    Matt Herges
    Gary Bennett Jr.
    Jim Parque
    Brendan Donnelly (I was right!)
    Chad Allen
    Jeff Williams
    Howie Clark

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:23 pm
  • Oh yeah, I’m totally in agreement that this is not the final word at all, but I am relieved to be able to dislike Gagne a little more.

    Devine December 13, 2007, 2:24 pm
  • So the upshot is… without the ability to subpoena anything or force anyone to talk to them, they have a list that spans pretty much every team, includes most positions, and has some really good players and some that you’ve never heard of. Not sure what this changes. Maybe all the people howling for an asterisk next to Bonds’ name howl a little softer?

    rootbeerfloat December 13, 2007, 2:24 pm
  • I can’t believe John Rocker is in there. I mean, he _never_ had any rage issues…

    (SF) Hudson December 13, 2007, 2:24 pm
  • The following purchased steroids VIA THE INTERNET:
    Nook Logan
    Rick Ankiel
    David Bell
    Paul Byrd
    Jose Canseco
    Jay Gibbons
    Troy Glaus
    Jason Grimsley
    Jose Guillen
    Daren Holmes
    Gary Matthews Jr.
    John ROcker
    Scott Schoeneweis
    Ismael Valdez
    Matt Williams
    Steve Woodard

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:25 pm
  • interesting thing in here about the sox looking into acquiring Gagne. Theo asks one of his scouts if he is a steroid guy. I guess it didnt deter them…

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 2:26 pm
  • I totally got Mike Lansing right!

    FenSheaParkway December 13, 2007, 2:27 pm
  • Yeah, definitely Sam. Apparently the scout said the following:
    Some digging on Gagne and steroids IS the issue. Has had a
    checkered medical past throughout career including minor leagues.
    Lacks the poise and commitment to stay healthy, maintain body
    and re invent self. What made him a tenacious closer was the max
    effort plus stuff . . . Mentality without the plus weapons and
    without steroid help probably creates a large risk in bounce back
    durability and ability to throw average while allowing the change-
    up to play as it once did . . . Personally, durability (or lack of) will
    426
    follow Gagne

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:29 pm
  • My favorite part of the report so far is seeing the actual checks that players used. Denny Neagle, that fancy-pants font isn’t fooling anyone!

    FenSheaParkway December 13, 2007, 2:29 pm
  • So the scouts recommended AGAINST getting Gagne? VERY interesting.
    Theo, why? Why?

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:30 pm
  • Just wanted to add my $0.02 that it’s pointless to say “so and so juiced, which invalidates this or that game.” It’s fairly clear that every team had a player or two who used, and you just can’t say that a particular play was the result of steroids.
    Baseball is too complex a game, too dependent on probability and causality… even the best algorithms can only determine about 60% of a player’s performance over the course of a SEASON. Predicting a player’s performance in a single game or at bat is impossible, and it’s ridiculous to pretend like we know what a player would or wouldn’t have done in a single AB if they were/n’t on steroids, or HGH, or horse tranquilizers, or whatever.
    In other news, Mitchell just compared the MLB to Northern Ireland. Steroids: SERIOUS BUSINESS. Just like the IRA.

    Jackie (SF) December 13, 2007, 2:30 pm
  • Considering the buildup, I am slightly disappointed…there was no bomb dropped, and aside from a few marginal names, we pretty much knew/guessed about the others.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 2:33 pm
  • So, here’s a question. Will Pettitte’s name showing up have any real effect on the level of near-worship love most YFs have for him?
    My prediction is no. YFs, what say you?

    ponch - sf December 13, 2007, 2:34 pm
  • I can’t decide whether to be relieved or annoyed that there aren’t any high-ish profile recent Sox on the list. Obviously, I’m happy that our recent titles are “clean” for now, but it makes the allegations of pro-Sox bias by Mitchell seem more valid somehow.

    Jackie (SF) December 13, 2007, 2:35 pm
  • Exactly, Jackie. Steroids are exactly like thousands of innocent women and children dying over religion in Northern Ireland.
    As someone with 50% Irish blood, I’m offended. Isn’t that kinda like the college football coach comparing his loss to the Haulocaust and Pearl Harbour?

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:36 pm
  • agreed YM, this report is basically worthless except the juicy details about Roger Clemens assuming we believe a 30 year old bat boy.

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 2:36 pm
  • Yeah, Pujols would have been a major bombshell. But Clemens I think has always had some suspicions around him.
    Apparently Vaughn used HGH with the Mets in 2001, after his Red Sox time, hoping to recover from an ankle injury faster.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 2:38 pm
  • Maybe BBTN will get Fernando Vina to analyze the report. ;-)
    “Uh, Fernando, I’m having a little trouble understanding Page 213. Explain that for our viewers…”

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 2:40 pm
  • Isn’t Kevin Young on BBTN as well? That’s a high percentage of the staff who are implicated!

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 2:41 pm
  • That’s Eric Young on BBTN

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 2:44 pm
  • I thought it was Eric Young on BBTN. I could be wrong.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 2:44 pm
  • I have to say Theo has some explaining to do, making that trade. The scouts said he likely was a bounce-back risk, and had mental concerns along with the fact that he wouldn’t have “steroid help.” And then to try to take him out of the closer’s role? Ugh. That’s officially a bad trade, at the time it was made, not just in results. The Sox knew it might turn out poorly, and it did.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 2:46 pm
  • doh! Who’s Kevin Young?

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 2:46 pm
  • I am consoled by the fact that Pettitte “only” used HGH, not steroids, and only in 2002 to help him recover from an elbow injury. Before HGH was even illegal.
    /spinning so furiously head is dizzy

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 2:46 pm
  • Yeah, now that this information has come out Theo definitely fucked up. There was a lot of pressure to make a move after nothing was done at the deadline in 2006, but still this was a horrible trigger to pull.
    Goddamn you Gagne.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:47 pm
  • at the same, great scouting work by the Sox. Spot-on.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 2:47 pm
  • Also, I don’t think this list is exhaustive – I didn’t see Rincon or Mota on there.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 2:48 pm
  • “Before HGH was even illegal”
    if that’s true, then what did Pettitte do wrong? I ask this sincerely. Was the matter in which he obtained HGH the problem (ie. it needs to be prescribed by a doctor)?

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 2:49 pm
  • I agree Yankeemonkey. I’m happy to see that Pettitte turned down HGH when originally offered it, and only started using in order to recover.
    You’re a much better man than Clemens.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:50 pm
  • Also, on Donnelly:
    In an email to vice president of player personnel Ben Charington dated December 13, 2006, Zack Scott of the Red Sox baseball operations staff wrote of Donnelly: “He was a juice guy but his velocity hasn’t changed a lot over the years . . . If he was a juice guy, he could be a breakdown candidate.” Kyle Evans of the baseball operations staff agreed with these oncerns, responding in an email that “I haven’t heard many good things about him, w[ith] significant steroid rumors.”428
    I guess this shows that GMs know a lot more about steroid use among their players than we’d like to believe — and that they choose to ignore much of it, probably because it’d be too hard to field a competitive, all-clean team.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 2:50 pm
  • I manually extracted the list, sorted alpha by last. Double checking my work and will make additions/corrections as necessary, but the file is available here.

    attackgerbil December 13, 2007, 2:51 pm
  • at the same, great scouting work by the Sox. Spot-on
    Yeah Nick! The scouting was AMAZING. It’s a shame Theo didn’t listen… we could be trading Kason Gabbard for Santana!

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:51 pm
  • so far, Paul, this is the most interesting part of the report. I guess it would naive to be surprised by the fact that GM’s are very much in the know.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 2:52 pm
  • “So, here’s a question. Will Pettitte’s name showing up have any real effect on the level of near-worship love most YFs have for him?
    My prediction is no. YFs, what say you?”
    Unless Andy Pettitte himself calls a press conference and tells us he took steroids, I see no reason why any Yankee fans would stop rooting for him. As for your “Near-Worship” comment, you have to be kidding me? Like Sox fans don’t worship players, please.
    “I can’t decide whether to be relieved or annoyed that there aren’t any high-ish profile recent Sox on the list. Obviously, I’m happy that our recent titles are “clean” for now, but it makes the allegations of pro-Sox bias by Mitchell seem more valid somehow.”
    I said earlier this wouldn’t be a Sox-Yankees thing, but for Pete’s sake you are telling me that Mitchell couldn’t find ANYTHING on any current/recent Red Sox? I find that very hard to believe.
    This whole thing is garbage.

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 2:53 pm
  • So, since Gagne was on the list, does this mean we get to add four wins to our 2007 record?

    Jackie (SF) December 13, 2007, 2:53 pm
  • Did baseball ban steroids or all performance-enhancing drugs in the early 1990s? If it just said steroids, then Pettitte did nothing legally wrong (and using HGH to recover from an injury doesn’t seem like cheating to me), but if all PEDs were banned, then Pettitte was violating baseball rules — even if there was no testing system or penalthy structure in place.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 2:53 pm
  • Great point and it underlies how much the blame should be spread around.

    sam-YF December 13, 2007, 2:53 pm
  • Hahahahah! Mitchell says there was no conflict of interest, compares this to a peace agreement in Northern Ireland and claims “you will not find any evidence of special treatment of the Red Sox.” Umm, not to say I don’t believe him, but how exactly *would* we find evidence of special treatment in the report? It’s what *not* in the report that counts!

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 2:53 pm
  • As for your “Near-Worship” comment, you have to be kidding me? Like Sox fans don’t worship players, please.
    I don’t think he meant that phrase in a bad way–it just seems that Pettitte is a player that most fans hold in extremely high regard. Like Ortiz or Pedro.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 2:54 pm
  • Manny Alexander, gerb. They found stuff in the trunk of his SUV, case later thrown out of court.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 2:55 pm
  • Page 97 on the Alexander reference.

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 2:56 pm
  • I have to say Theo has some explaining to do, making that trade. The scouts said he likely was a bounce-back risk, and had mental concerns along with the fact that he wouldn’t have “steroid help.” And then to try to take him out of the closer’s role? Ugh. That’s officially a bad trade, at the time it was made, not just in results. The Sox knew it might turn out poorly, and it did.
    So Pete was right after all. Who would’ve thunk it. Now watch Engel Beltre turn into Hanley Ramirez.

    Tyrel SF December 13, 2007, 2:58 pm
  • Well, work beckons. It’s been fun. I’m glad Gagne and Mo Vaughn are the only Sox names of note, but I imagine the LoHud guys are going NUTS about no Ortiz.
    All told, I think both our teams did pretty well in the final accounting. Better than the Orioles (Brian Roberts) or Astros (Miguel Tejada. Oops.)…

    Paul SF December 13, 2007, 2:59 pm
  • I feel bad for Jack Cust. He owns a Baseball Academy here in NJ that a ton of HS kids go to. He is obviously going to pay the price for this. Unfortunate.

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 2:59 pm
  • I’m trying to find info regarding legality of HGH but a superficial google hasn’t turned up anything helpful so far.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 3:01 pm
  • Too busy at work to follow or comment much right now, but the list of names is honestly not the most interesting aspect to me.
    I wanted to see it, but the larger picture of how openly this stuff is discussed, how trainers deal with it (even administer or encourage it if they do???) how much there is looking the other way vs. active encouragement and supply vs. discouragement from all the various stakeholders in the MLB – that’s all more interesting to me than which players bought or used the stuff. I want to read the report to get some of that insight frankly.
    By the way, not to be overly macho or anything, but if you needed to shoot something in you butt-cheek, wouldn’t you prefer to just do it yourself rather than drop your pants for your workout partner and have him do it for you? This will clearly not be the central debate sparked by this report, but it did give me pause…

    IronHorse (yf) December 13, 2007, 3:05 pm
  • I’m looking around as well. Best I can tell, HGH was banned in baseball before the 2005 season. So, what exactly did Pettitte do wrong?

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 3:06 pm
  • Easy there, John. I just meant that Pettitte is beloved by YFs and hailed as a ‘True Yankee,’ so the question I posed isn’t meant to enrage, but is just a legitimate query.

    ponch - sf December 13, 2007, 3:10 pm
  • Yeah, that’s the sense that I got too, Nick. I *guess* his infraction was getting it from a non-prescrption non-doctor person.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 3:10 pm
  • Thanks, Paul. Corrected.. a few more added that I missed in transcript.

    attackgerbil December 13, 2007, 3:10 pm
  • Hasn’t HGH been illegal in the US without a valid prescription for quite some time? And a prescription wouldn’t be valid if it were for something other than acromegaly or otehr deficiency diseases.

    rootbeerfloat December 13, 2007, 3:11 pm
  • Yeah, it must have been a controlled substance. He did do wrong. It is shady. But, hey, I once did ritalin to write a final paper.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 3:15 pm
  • Clemens just dropped off the earth.

    Brad December 13, 2007, 3:15 pm
  • Yeah, I thought HGH has been illegal in the United States since a year after it was created. Baseball, however, did not have an HGH policy until afterwards.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 3:15 pm
  • Oh, I’m not absolving him of anything. But to lump him in with Clemens who sounds like he’s no better than Bonds seems somewhat unfair.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 3:16 pm
  • Pettitte should not have done steroids. However, he should get credit for turning down offers of HGH on several occasions before finally succumbing to it after injuring his elbow.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 3:18 pm
  • “Yeah, it must have been a controlled substance. He did do wrong. It is shady. But, hey, I once did ritalin to write a final paper.”
    Great example, Nick. It’s the same exact thing.

    Mike YF December 13, 2007, 3:20 pm
  • “I just meant that Pettitte is beloved by YFs and hailed as a ‘True Yankee,’ so the question I posed isn’t meant to enrage, but is just a legitimate query.”
    Ok 2 questions. #1, What do these revelations have to do with him being a “True Yankee” (a term usually used to enrage “True” Yankee fans). #2, If David Ortiz was linked to HGH would his fan base shrink? I doubt it. So forgive me if I am don’t believe that you weren’t trying to flame a little.

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 3:21 pm
  • HGH != steroids as far as I know.
    Also, about 95% players named were in some shape or form connected to the Yankees or the Mets. So obviously a ton of people is breathing easier even though they’re just as guilty.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 3:21 pm
  • Mike, I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic, but that paper I wrote was pretty spectacular. Dostoevsky, man, that guy had a gambling problem!

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 3:21 pm
  • Glad Mo is not on this list though I know not being on this list doesn’t prove anything…but at least for now, I can go on with the belief that he really is a freak of nature…and that Clemens perhaps isn’t so much of one.

    IronHorse (yf) December 13, 2007, 3:23 pm
  • I think the Pettitte – Clemens comparison is a perfect example of the wide gray area there has been for the last few years. Who did? Who didn’t? Who only did them a few times because of an injury? Who did them until MLB started testing? Who did them but was smart enough not to order them off the internet? It’s just impossible to know and to start adjusting anyone’s records or stats based on perceived steroid use.

    rootbeerfloat December 13, 2007, 3:24 pm
  • That’s what Mitchell doesn’t seem to grasp. Sure they named players from every team, but by relying on only two trainers (themselves under criminal investigation) plus the BALCO testimony, he’s produced a very warped report.

    Mike YF December 13, 2007, 3:24 pm
  • If David Ortiz was linked to HGH would his fan base shrink? I doubt it. So forgive me if I am don’t believe that you weren’t trying to flame a little.
    John, I lived in Dallas until I was 12. Rafael Palmiero was my HERO, and when he tested positive for steroids I was devastated. Raffy is now dead to me.
    If Ortiz tested positive, I would be MORE devastated. I would still love him, because I love his personality and not just his skill, but I would never feel the same about him.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 3:24 pm
  • Very well put, RBF.

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 3:26 pm
  • RBF, in fairness to Mitchell, I think the report does a good job of detailing the context of use.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 3:26 pm
  • No, no, I’m not being sarcastic, Nick, and I did the same thing once in college too. The point is we obtained a prescription drug (“controlled substance”) which we shouldn’t have had. It’s the exact same “crime” that Pettitte committed.

    Mike YF December 13, 2007, 3:27 pm
  • By my count:
    17 Yankees (Past/Present)
    9 Mets (Past/Present)

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 3:27 pm
  • Nick-YF – The report might detail the context of the use that they have proof of but the guy didn’t have any legal authority to pursue investigations and the report is probably woefully incomplete. I’m not saying he did a bad job but his hands were tied.

    rootbeerfloat December 13, 2007, 3:28 pm
  • John – #1 – take up ‘Pettitte’ as a ‘True Yankee’ with Michael Kay, since he refers to him as one all the time.
    #2 – I wouldn’t be offended or think you were trying to flame me if Ortiz was the subject. i think it’s a legit question. But that’s me. ::shrug::

    ponch - sf December 13, 2007, 3:30 pm
  • RBF, definitely agree with that. It does seem like a skimming of the surface, not very comprehensive–more like vignettes of steroid/HGH use designed to suggest the larger whole. Almost Poetic like Pessoa’s stuff.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 3:31 pm
  • Sorry Ponch, you lost me at “Michael Kay.”

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 3:31 pm
  • Looks like:
    14 Red Sox (Past/Present)

    Devine December 13, 2007, 3:31 pm
  • Absolutely, the context is well-described. But then they should have redacted names because they knew they weren’t going to be able to identify everyone and without a doubt. I agree with whoever said it earlier – If I’m Pettitte I sue in civil court. He broke no laws (because HGH wasn’t FDA regulated then, I think) nor rules of the sport. But this report is giving a strong impression that he did both.

    Mike YF December 13, 2007, 3:31 pm
  • “But then they should have redacted names because they knew they weren’t going to be able to identify everyone and without a doubt.”
    This is an interesting point. The only compelling argument to me for keeping the names in is that it might act as a deterrent for future use. I know that people would think not having names would weaken the report but I’m not drawn to that argument.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 3:33 pm
  • The point is we obtained a prescription drug (“controlled substance”) which we shouldn’t have had. It’s the exact same “crime” that Pettitte committed.
    Except for the fact that taking HGH was a Federal crime? Just because it’s not against MLB policy doesn’t mean it’s not illegal.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 3:33 pm
  • Yeah, if I’m not mistaken I might have committed a federal crime for taking ritalin. (By the way, I was only writing before of a hypothetical past).

    Nick-YF December 13, 2007, 3:38 pm
  • “Senator Mitchell is lucky that Kirk Radomski was facing prison and was willing to rats guys out to get some time taken off his sentence. Otherwise the Mitchell Report would have been the size of a comic book.”
    -Pete Abe
    “I don’t know how much that report costs but I hope Bud Selig kept the receipt. He should get some money back.”
    -Pete Abe
    I thought both were pretty good.

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 3:44 pm
  • If I’m Pettitte I sue in civil court. He broke no laws (because HGH wasn’t FDA regulated then, I think) nor rules of the sport. But this report is giving a strong impression that he did both.
    Under what grounds? All this report did was collect information; it never accuses Pettitte of doing anything illegal or against MLB rules. You destroyed your own argument with the phrase “giving a strong impression”
    Sure Civil Courts only need a preponderance of the evidence, but this would be a huge waste of time and there’s no way Pettitte would win.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 3:45 pm
  • // Hasn’t HGH been illegal in the US without a valid prescription for quite some time? //
    Why doesn’t MLB make commission of Federal crimes grounds for suspension/expulsion?

    Anonymous December 13, 2007, 3:46 pm
  • http://www.beliefnet.com/story/167/story_16732_1.html
    Everything explained away through attribution of purpose to a higher power. There’s no accountability in a world such as this. It is amazingly arrogant.
    He’s no Clemens, fine. Whatever.

    SF December 13, 2007, 3:50 pm
  • SF, where’s your list? Unseal the envelope!

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 3:52 pm
  • I also don’t think “true Yankee” was used to inflame. I know a lot of people don’t like the expression (prob. because the whole “A-Rod: Is he a Real Yankee?!?!” thing comes up so much and is so stupid), but to me it is not a negative expression. Just means someone most YFs think of as being talented, high-profile, classy, a face/name that you think of when you think of the Yankees, usually-but-not-always associated with the 1996-2001 team. Bernie, O’Neill, Jeter, Pettite… those guys.
    I admit I occasionally use the term sardonically, but in Pettite’s case I would apply it genuinely.

    Jackie (SF) December 13, 2007, 3:52 pm
  • “I admit I occasionally use the term sardonically…”
    As do most around here. See where I am coming from.

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 3:56 pm
  • Yeah John, but in the context used it seemed like nothing of the sort. Relax man ;-)
    I hope Gagne’s penis falls off.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 4:01 pm
  • Hard to relax Atheose when a good portion of my top 10 were linked to PED’s today, LOL.

    John - YF December 13, 2007, 4:03 pm
  • Understandable, John. Understandable.
    And I apologize for wishing random genital mutilation upon Gagne.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 4:06 pm
  • Atheose – didn’t you feel that way after he blew all those games? The ‘roid thing can’t make me hate him more than I already do…

    rootbeerfloat December 13, 2007, 4:07 pm
  • John – not sure it makes you feel any better but I don’t think any Sox fans are sitting around thinking this proves none of our top 10 did PEDs.

    rootbeerfloat December 13, 2007, 4:09 pm
  • I did, and I thought that my hate for Gagne was at max capacity, but this just makes me hate him more. He sucks AND he was on steroids? That’s DOUBLE suckage, by my math.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 4:10 pm
  • but I don’t think any Sox fans are sitting around thinking this proves none of our top 10 did PEDs.
    Right. I don’t find any pleasure in this report, at all, though I do feel like some of my suspicions about Clemens were on the money. And Dan Duquette must be, if not smiling, feeling vindicated to an extent.

    SF December 13, 2007, 4:11 pm
  • The envelope has been unsealed, and is at the top of the site.

    SF December 13, 2007, 4:14 pm
  • I think it will be interesting to see how much, if any, difference there will be in the way Clemens gets treated compared to Bonds. Dan Wetzel over at Yahoo Sports is already going there.

    rootbeerfloat December 13, 2007, 4:14 pm
  • My list of the greatest living pitchers:
    Roger Clemens*
    Pedro Martinez
    Nolan Ryan
    Randy Johnson
    *-doesn’t count; steroids.
    I know he had an amazing career BEFORE the steroids, but right now I feel nothing but hate.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 4:15 pm
  • Jackie (SF) December 13, 2007, 4:20 pm
  • HAHAHA thanks for that Jackie.

    Atheose December 13, 2007, 4:22 pm
  • Jackie, that is awesome!

    yankeemonkey December 13, 2007, 4:26 pm
  • Heh, thanks guys, I couldn’t resist.

    Jackie (SF) December 13, 2007, 4:27 pm
  • AH ha ha ha, thanks Jackie, that’s now my desktop wallpaper.

    Devine December 13, 2007, 4:33 pm
  • I’ve posted it elsewhere too, Jackie. Gotta share the wealth.

    Devine December 13, 2007, 4:54 pm
  • woohoo, I can be famous on the internets

    Jackie (SF) December 13, 2007, 5:56 pm

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