No More Years! No More Years! No More Years!

Egg, meet face. Yikes. It’s not like I waited for the Weekly World News to report that Theo was returning. So much for trusting mainstream news sources, for anything.  Was the Globe was relying on "Official A" for their story, for f**k’s sake?  In any case, this is, in the immediate present and on the surface, terrible news for the Sox and us Sox fans. First, Josh Byrnes, Epstein’s reliable second, heads to Arizona. Now, Theo leaves town, history.  We will just have to trust that John Henry (and/or Lucchino, that a**hole) has something intelligent planned, because it sure looks like he/they botched this one, at least until we know who will be replacing Epstein.  Obviously John Henry values Lucchino more than Epstein, or else Lucky would have been the one heading into the sunset, and that should tell us quite a bit about how he views the Sox, as both a baseball organization and as a business.   Who knows what’s next.  Brian Sabean? How about Lou Gorman?  Blech.

(On the other hand, perhaps ownership can send Curt to ask W for some suggestions, since he’s so good at picking judges…)

28 comments… add one
  • (Still grousing about the election?)
    Well, all I can say at this point is that this ship is sinking fast. What other options are out there for the Sox? How will this affect the free-agency filings?
    HOW SCREWED ARE WE?!?!?!?!?!

    sithkhan October 31, 2005, 7:18 pm
  • Come on, we’re not that screwed. We’re not in good shape, seemingly, but we’re not that screwed either. The Red Sox still have to sign a GM before we can completely abandon ship, har har.
    Seriously, if Lucchino wields this much power and has as much of Henry’s ear as this incident seems to imply, then we ought to be questioning how much latitude Theo had over the last three years. I am certain he had great influence (as has James), I have, like many Sox fans, been a huge Theo fan. In fact, I thought he would be the man who made the move that made the difference this year. And he wasn’t, and perhaps now we can see why. So this hurts. But remember that Theo and James were Henry’s hires. So we have to at least wait it out and see who Epstein’s replacement is before we start panicking. I am not entirely optimistic, but it’s totally premature to get the lifeboats ready.

    SF October 31, 2005, 7:29 pm
  • Dear oh dear. I feel for you guys, I really do. Clearly a clash of personalities, and the Sox’s best interests have not been served.
    What next? Any despondent Sox fans wanna wager on DePo being the new guy?

    Sam Mamudi October 31, 2005, 7:30 pm
  • PS – let’s not forget: this is the man who signed a so-so shortstop for 4yrs/$40m when you have good prospects coming through, stuck with a non-hitting 2B far too long, and let two of his best pitchers leave through free-agency last year.
    Not saying Theo won’t be missed, but I always thought that the esteem RSN held him in was a little hysterical.

    Sam October 31, 2005, 7:36 pm
  • DePo…DePo…DePo… :)
    But does anyone want to wager that Theo ends up in Dodgerland? I can’t imagine Philly or anyone else paying him anywhere near the 4.5 for 3 that he reportedly turned down in Beantown. Tom Hicks is always good for a retarded contract, but I think the Rangers already have a brash, young GM.

    Spidey October 31, 2005, 7:49 pm
  • Absolutely, positively not DePodesta- did you see what he did to the Dodgers?!!
    If he was in Boston his “signature trade” would’ve gone something like this: Tek, Timlin, and Trot for Aubrey Huff, Mark Hendrickson and a box of donuts. Fuck that guy.
    Towers, on the other hand… guy’s done a good job with a limited payroll in SD (although he is prone to the dreaded “albatross contract”- see Brian Giles, Ryan Klesko, Phil Nevin) and you know he’s itching to get out from under Sandy Alderson’s thumb. Does he want to get under Luccino’s though? Does anyone?
    I say if Larry thinks he’s such a hot shit baseball mind, maybe HE should be the GM.
    Wait- scratch that…

    NV in SD October 31, 2005, 7:49 pm
  • Oooh – Theo in Philly. That could work…

    Sam October 31, 2005, 7:52 pm
  • I think Depo did a fine job for the Dodgers. Most of his moves were positive. As a Yanks fan, I hope the Sox steer clear of hiring that guy.

    Nick October 31, 2005, 8:06 pm
  • SF, I’m scared.
    Hold me.

    sithkhan October 31, 2005, 8:30 pm
  • Um, replacing Beltre with Jose Valentin? JD “DL” Drew signed for five years and $55M?? Kent worked out at the plate, but he’s hardly the guy everyone loves in the clubhouse, and couple him with Milton “He Got Game” Bradley, and all you’re missing is Everett for the Clubhouse Cancer Trifecta. And when your ace is Jeff Weaver, well…’nuff said. You have a $100M payroll and you finish 20 games under .500, I think you have to take a hard look at the guy signing the players. I mean, I think he was as much at fault as Tracy was for the Dodgers’ dismal performance, but who knows. Maybe DePo would lead the Sox to another championship. Hire him!

    Spidey October 31, 2005, 8:38 pm
  • “I think Depo did a fine job for the Dodgers.”
    What- like the time he brought the team from division champs to 20 games under .500 in a year? Yes- fine job indeed…
    *sarcasm off*

    NV in SD October 31, 2005, 8:48 pm
  • He didn’t replace Beltre with Valentin. He signed Drew in lieu of signing Beltre. Drew was cheaper, and was putting up solid numbers when he suffered a freakish injury (getting hit by a pitch). Beltre, in the first year of a ridiculously expensive and long contract, reverted to his pre-2004 numbers. Kent was a good signing. Sorry, but sometimes assholes help teams win. Witness Barry Bonds and Jeff Kent during SF’s late 90’s, early 2000’s run. Other moves by Depo. He made a gutsy trade that proved to be a steal last year. Lo Duca (who proceeded to bat .250 with 0 homruns the remainder of the season), Mota (who has stunk for the fish) and Encarnacion for Penny and Choi. Also, during the stretch run he acquired Steve Finley who, if memory serves me correctly, won a couple of important games for the the Dodgers. Meanwhile, he sacrificed nothing of the team’s stellar minor league system. Also, he bolstered the team’s future by acquiring Navarro and prospects from the D-Backs for an overpaid Shawn Green. For the next couple of years the Dodgers will be competitive, that is if the next management team doesn’t squander what Depo has done.

    Nick October 31, 2005, 8:57 pm
  • here’s a link about the pluses and minuses of Depo’s tenure with the Dodgers.

    Nick October 31, 2005, 9:07 pm
  • Nick, acquiring Penny and Choi was a steal? A light-hitting firstbaseman and a third starter who went 7-9 and racked up almost a 4.00 NL ERA? Seems more like a wash to me. Drew’s solid year in Hotlanta sure seems like the outlier of his career, and his contract has albatross written all over it (then again, they managed to get rid of Kevin Brown, so maybe they’ll figure out a way to dump JD, too). And the last time I checked, Finley, who did have a couple of big hits for LA was getting hits for the playoff-caliber Angels team that beat our beloved Bombers. Can’t say I know anything about the Dodgers farm system, so you may be right there, but certainly there is some substantial pudding proof in the Dodgers’ last place finish and 71-91 record this year. And yeah, sometimes assholes help teams win. Happens in the NFL every week. But sometimes they just rack up numbers as their teams finish in last place. And please, re your Barry/Kent example with the Giants, I think we can both agree on which player of that particular duo was doing the lion’s share of team-carrying.

    Spidey November 1, 2005, 1:12 am
  • Finley’s a perfect example of the good work of Depo. Firstly, he didn’t get big hits for the Angels, so let’s squash that one off the bat. Actually, he was one of the worst free-agent signings of the off-season, receiving $9 million per year for the next two and batting a lousy .210. Depo, who it should be noted was pressured by media and fans alike to re-sign the popular Finley, didn’t buckle.
    Spidey, if Depo has kept the status quo, in other words if he had resigned Beltre and Finley, and not traded Green, would the team have been a winning one? Based on their seasons, I’d say no. Meanwhile, pickings on the market were slim (we both know that as yanks fans), so what alternative did he have? He picks up Lowe who logs over 200 innings and is a solid 2. Drew’s season ends in a freakish way. Kent hits well while alienating some players on his team. Is is telling that most blogging dodger fans are really upset abut his firing.

    Nick November 1, 2005, 9:37 am
  • Whether or not you think DePo did a good or bad job this year, it would seem that barely two seasons (and one draft) wouldn’t be enough to judge someone’s abilities. Epstein in his three years was able to participate in 3 amateur drafts and three trading deadlines and offseasons, so you have some idea of his skills. DePo wasn’t given that chance, and basing the quality of the Lowe or Drew moves after 1 year of their multi-year contracts is a tad premature. I’d say the verdict on DePo is (and will remain) out.

    SF November 1, 2005, 9:46 am
  • SF, I disagree. You can judge a gm’s reasoning based on each decision he makes. Whether these decisions pan out is always subject to a certain degree of luck and unforeseen changes. But, to me, Depo made reasoned choices, as opposed to the Yankee front office this past off-season who signed Wright and Womack. Perhaps, both will turn around their performances in 2005, but if they do, the Yanks would just be lucky fools.

    Nick November 1, 2005, 9:56 am
  • OK, to clarify: It might be reasonable to assess a GM’s perfomance, or at least speculate to the wisdom of their vision, based on some of their initial free agent signings. But the “building a system” part of the assessment (and it’s a very important part, in my opinion) takes more than a single amateur draft. In this way, I think it’s unfair to say that DePo was a failure or a success, in toto.

    SF November 1, 2005, 10:03 am
  • I don’t understand Sox fans. Theo is gone, and the thread becomes Let’s Dump On DePodesta. It started with Oh Woe Is Us!
    I think letting Theo go was a mistake. But Lucchino has money, Bill James and the number guys who worked for James and Theo and he’ll find someone good, just as he found Theo.
    This is Red Sox Nation Karma. When the Sox are in first and everything’s going well, spend a lot of negative energy hating the Yankee GM — and lose your own guy. Buy into the Evil Empire crap, only to find out that Larry’s the New Emperor.
    Henry and Lucchino are going to make sure that in the middle of next season they’re not looking like assholes. They’ll get a good GM and they’ll spend money, which they’ve got plenty of, making sure that the Sox are one of the best teams in the majors.

    john yf November 1, 2005, 10:16 am
  • John, your post is undermined by two facts. First, Spidey is a big-time Yankees fan, and the main discussion about DePo is between Nick (also a YF), Spidey, and myself. The second is that my take is clearly that DePo wasn’t given a long enough look for us to be able to judge. Not sure that qualifies as “dumping” on him. It would probably qualify under the “unfair firing” category, instead.
    So, nice reflexive dumping on Sox fans. You know the saying about the pot and the kettle, don’t you?

    SF November 1, 2005, 10:20 am
  • Well- When Boston won two years ago I was still shocked they they defeated my beloved Yankees. Boston deserved to win- the Yanks took it for granted and paid the price.I was telling a Red Sox fan who is always emailing me and busting my chops about how they won. I explained to him that in order to be great you must win again and again. He found out it was easier said than done. Baseball is not what it used to be- it is about control, making money. Theo, made some rather odd moves I thought with the players he selected- but each one turned out to be an excellent fit for their team. Allowing him to get away- was not only stupid- but a monumental blunder. Larry Lucchino may have given Theo his start- but the guy knew what he was doing. Being a Yankee fan- I applaud the stupidity of the Sox- trust me Red Sox fans- you will not win for a long long time. To my friend Josiewales08

    Frank November 1, 2005, 12:27 pm
  • SF, Doesn’t it strike you as odd that I’m more optimistic about the post-Theo future than you?

    john yf November 1, 2005, 1:37 pm
  • John, see the second comment in this thread. I don’t think I am unreasonable, and I am certainly not that pessimistic. Yet.
    (On the other hand, this isn’t a good situation, so I don’t see any reason why we should just drink the Kool Aid and act as if everything is just peachy.)

    SF November 1, 2005, 1:44 pm
  • I think Sox fans have lost a significant part of their growth as an organization for a long time to come. Not only did he bring them a world series but he made the right choices in building up a floundering farm system. Hmmmwonder where that leaves Francona

    Blooge9 November 1, 2005, 4:22 pm
  • Blooge9 hits the biggest nail on the head. What will the Sox’ organizational ethos towards drafting and the minor leagues be without Epstein? If they keep the focus on development that Epstein brought (and do a good job selecting and coaching the youngsters), then Theo’s departure is much less significant. If they turn into the Yankees of the last 5 years, then we are sunk.
    Who has John Schuerholz’ number?

    SF November 1, 2005, 4:32 pm
  • One thing being missed here: The Sox had the second highest payroll in baseball, and pitching inadequate to advance in the playoffs. That’s a blot on Theo’s record.
    (Note to Sox Fan(s): Saying Yankee pitching sucked worse doesn’t actually make the situation or Theo’s performance any better.)

    john yf November 2, 2005, 11:10 am
  • On the other hand, if Foulke and Embree were in ’04 form and Schilling was even 2/3 of what he was in ’04 then this wouldn’t be close to a discussion. Not really Theo’s fault, John. It was not a buyer’s market at the deadline either.

    SF November 2, 2005, 11:20 am
  • “Cheers” to Theo Epstein for standing up & walking out on the Boston Red Sox’ front office brASS. (Coach would be proud)
    -Backwards K @Baseball Banter

    Backwards K November 5, 2005, 1:24 am

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