They’re back. Great. Greaaaaat. Baseball in 2007. All about the dignitude.
70 comments… add one
What’s the over-under on both of them having monster years? How funny would that be? Imagine Sosa, some time removed now, bashing 54HR’s and 135RBI from the launching pad, consequently protecting, and pushing Mark Tex’s new contract somewhere into the atmosphere normally reserved for guys named Manny and A-Rod?
…that would be great…narrows the field of competition for us to pick him up…
MLB has rejected Barry Bonds’ contract.
“Complicating matters, the version of Bonds’ contract that was sent to the commissioner’s office by the Giants was not approved, Bonds’ agent, Jeff Borris, said late Tuesday. Borris said the team was redrafting the agreement to address the provisions in question and sending him a revised version by express mail for Bonds to review and sign. Borris wouldn’t specify what was at issue.”
In other News, Theo can be nominated for the “worst marriage location” award, and one must ask, what was the new Mrs. Epstein thinking when she approved the location?
BOSTON (AP) — Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein, known for his stealth in baseball deals, quietly got married this month, according to a published report.
The Boston Globe reported Wednesday that Epstein’s father, Leslie Epstein, confirmed his son married Marie Whitney in New York at the original Nathan’s Famous hot dog stand, built in 1916.
Well, when you gotta think of the most spontaneous spot AND least likely spot to get hounded by the paparazzi…
Congrats to him and the new Mrs., but I can’t help but chuckle at the location myself.
narrows the field of competition for us to pick him up…
It’s just too bad that it doesn’t narrow out the only competition the Yankees in the first place, dc. No matter what the contract is, you can believe that either team will be right there driving that cost through the roof for the other. With Manny most likely gone after this year, I see Boston making a huge push for Tex; essentially we’re both hoping that Texas is not going to pony up the loot for him, but nothing in Texas’ history should make us think that. If he wants twenty per, my guess is that he gets it.
From Texas, I mean.
Brad – I could be wrong (or at least things changed) but I remember reading that Texas doesn’t want to give him that huge contract (especially after last year’s slow start) so we might see him going somewhere after 2008..
Coincidentally, that’s when a certain Johan goes on the market.
What’s the payroll count at now?
Yeah, I can’t imagine either team would ever take on near 45-50mill year for two guys, no matter how good. I would imagine that who doesn’t get one has a great chance at the other.
Who knows, but it’s much to early for any of us to actually get into this. Both may have monster years, or terrible ones, but either way, we don’t know.
Actually, I’m still hoping for Helton.
I can see the Yankees making a run at both of them, especially if they can backload the contracts some.
The Yankees have significant payroll coming off over the next 2 years…
Mariano Rivera’s value could likely go down from his 2007 salary of 10.5 million.
Jason Giambi could come off the books clearing 21 million if they Yankees decline his 2009 option.
Andy Pettitte would be off the books after 2008 clearing 16 million
Bobby Abreau is done after 2007 for 15 million.
Ditto for Jorge Posada and his 12 million.
Not to mention the fact that the Yankees could choose to trade A-Rod after 2007, that would probably involve eating some of the salary, A-Rod can also void the contract after the season.
With New York on the hook for about 16 million per year for A-Rod and the Rangers paying the balance New York could clear 90.5 million from its yearly payroll by the end of 2008 making both those players very much available to the Yankees.
Again, anything could happen. We’ll just have to wait and see. I mean, FWIW, we could see Manny DHing in the Bronx two years from now.
When a team clears 4 or 5 albatross contracts like that, however, they still have to replace them with something. I can’t see the Yanks, or Sox for that matter, replacing four or five big contracts with two. With guys like Jones, Ichiro, and others available, the big contracts are going to be aplenty. That being said, none will be more valuable than those of Santana, Texiera, and Zambrano.
Yes Brad, but lets say they lose A-Rod and Giambi, and replace them with Texiera and Santana, I dont see Texiera getting more then say 18 mil per season and Santana would prolly get 20-25 per year, thats right on par with A Rod and Giambis total and they have rteplaced both Giambi and Pettitte on the roster. That still leaves you 53.5 million to replace the other 5 guys. Lets assume they keep Melky Carera hes now a cost effective rteplacement for Abreau for a number of years. The Yankees will also probably bring back Rivera at a discount for atleast another 2 years plus they have aquired some pitching in the minors and also have Hughes. Its not totally out of the question to see the Yankees commit $40-45 million per season between 2 players, after all they have been doing that for some time now.
Good Points, TJ.
Still hoping for Helton!
tj’s got it right brad…i’ve been saying for some time now that the yanks will end up with both j santana and tex…you’re right when you say the yanks will have to replace the expiring contracts with something…they have some good youth that deserve consideration, or they are what i suspect…trading chips…i’m not ruling out a trade and sign for santana and tex…arod staying is 50/50 at this point [but only if he has a monster year and doesn’t flame out in the playoffs], but i’ve also said he would be foolish to give up that easy guaranteed money for 08-10 for a gamble at FA…look what [almost] happened to drew…not sure the sox have the stones to make a serious run at any of these guys unless they punt manny soon and take a pass on the unretired shilling, so i’m not worried about competition…they need to be careful of phony interest in players [“driving that cost through the roof”], lest they create a perception that they are not serious players at the upper payroll level…might get to the point where boras doesn’t return their phone calls…
I think something will happen in Spring Training for Helton.
I think ultimatly it could involve 3 teams..
The Rockies have interest in Rocko Baldelli, so lets send Crisp and Murphy to Tampa, Lowell to Colorado, Baldelli and a pitching prospect to Colroado from Tampa and Helton to Boston.
“i’ve been saying for some time now that the yanks will end up with both j santana and tex…”
Much like one Yank fan said at the beginning of this offseason that the Yanks would end up with both Zito and Matsuzaka?
If Teixiera has a huge 2007, why wouldn’t Tom Hicks change his mind and throw cash at him. What’s to keep the Mets from going all out for Santana? What if one or both those players simply has no desire to come to New York (like Zito)? What if *gasp* the Red Sox outmaneuver the Yanks for one of them? It once again smacks of the stereotypical Yankee-fan arrogance to flatly say, “We’ll get both of them.”
Well, to be fair Paul, the Yankees really didn’t want either of those players to begin with. If they did, they would be in Pinstripes right now, and you know that!
off topic but heres a slightly ammusing joke to get the morning rolling.
If you are sitting next to someone who irritates you on a plane – and let’s be honest, we’ve all been there……
1. Quietly and calmly open up your laptop case.
2. Remove your laptop.
3. Boot it.
4. Make sure the guy who won’t leave you alone can see the screen.
5. Close your eyes and tilt your head up to the sky.
6. Then hit this link: http://www.thecleverest.com/countdown.swf
…not sure what yank fan said that paul, but i never got the impression that the yanks were even interested in zito…did they submit an offer?…they did appear to want dm, and it wasn’t a stretch to think they might get him…i think we all underestimated the sox resolve [and generosity] on that one…we can’t win ’em all…
…you are right, i’m assuming that santana and tex want to win and have the courage to play in ny…if not, and they settle for less money somewhere else, so be it…you can all it the “arod syndrome”…
…so, when a yf boasts a little, it’s arrogant, but when an sf does it, it’s called what again?…yep call me arrogant, i prefer to call it a quiet confidence…
yep call me arrogant, i prefer to call it a quiet confidence
dc, there’s nothing quiet about it if you post it on this website. Quiet would mean that you think it, but aren’t quite audacious enough to put it out there for criticism!
want to win and have the courage to play in ny.
Like all the other FA’s who mustered up the “courage” to take the most money and “win” in the past five years?
Let’s not forget attacking the straw man is a logical fallacy.
If you’re going to go that way, keep in mind that one Red Sox fan also said DMat will be like Irabu. Meh.
BTW, the whole Helton thing (and kind of Tex by extension) seems odd to me – is it really a “hole” the Sox need to fill?
Even if Tex isn’t on the market, I don’t want the Yanks to take on Helton, so I don’t see why the Sox would – Helton’s getting old, and while he might rebound, I can see him only be good for a year or two. Of course, I’ve been seeing the demise of Schilling for awhile, and look how that went.
But I also think that with the projection of ~95 wins as is, the few extra win Helton might bring might be a bit of an overkill, especially at that price..
and he might, but that doesn’t change the issues of this conversation whatsoever. I think we’ve all been shown that the casual idea of the Yankees outbidding all comers is not so much of a sure thing as it used to be. Both teams, and moreso the Yankees, have forced other teams to make that bid, so in the end, there are quite a few teams that can and will offer lucrative contracts to big-time players.
I think we all hold some kind of bias towards the thought that all players want to play in our respective cities, but in reality, there are a bunch that do not. The Yankees and the Red Sox have one advantage – money. Outside of that, any team can (and has) bounced either of our teams very early in the process of “winning”.
Brad – I’m a fan of DMat (as much as I can as a Yank fan anyhow) but I just meant to attack Paul’s statement of “Much like one Yank fan said at the beginning of this offseason that the Yanks would end up with both Zito and Matsuzaka?” which I don’t believe furthers the conversation.
especially at that price
Lar, I think you’re guaging this on the worst case scenario; the Sox give up a prospect and two ML available guys and eat a huge chunk of the salary, but in reality, if the Sox end up paying less than 60mill for the duration, it can’t be considered bad in this market.
Also, thinking of what Helton brings now, it has to outweigh what he’ll bring in three years from now, if only at 12/per. He rakes, and that’s the bottom line. If he only hits 15-18 homeruns but still averages a .300BA for the next three years, I’m all for it. I would rather have Helton at that cost production ratio than Tex at his predicted one.
Also, I think I’m just convinced that when inserted into the middle of this lineup, especially if after Manny, he is going to do some pretty special things. Just like I think that, if healthy, JD Drew in the two slot will have a monster year in front of Ortiz.
“stereotypical Yankee-fan arrogance…”
C’mon, Paul, blanket statements about a fanbase aren’t cool.
“the Yankees outbidding all comers is not so much of a sure thing as it used to be.”
Based on what, losing out to the sox in one blind auction?
I think the Yankees will still outbid everybody on the big ticket items (Johan, maybe Tex) but the question is whether they’ll come..
Based on what, losing out to the sox in one blind auction?
No. This is just my own opinion, and it’s based on the outrageous contracts given out this year by teams other than the Yankees or Red Sox. When you look at the numbers some of these guys, even mediocre ones, were given, one has to come to the conclusion that teams other than NY and Boston are going to release some of the money. Of course, some of this will be hindered when each team stops getting some of Steinbrenner’s free money (as if that’ll ever happen), but for now, Boston and NY are not the only players in the race for names.
“…who mustered up the “courage” to take the most money…” …brad, your comment makes my case…when the yankees want someone [and that player isn’t against playing in ny, which some are], they usually get that player…that’s confidence, not arrogance…i don’t think i’m either audacious, or arrogant, for posting my opinions here…what does that say for the rest of the posters, including you?…hee
Dc, let’s be serious here. I wasn’t calling you audacious, but rather the idea of you calling it a “quiet” confidence.
But, by saying the simple statement of “when the Yankees…”, it’s just not correct. I’m sure the Yanks have lost the war behind closed doors before, and I’m not exactly how much courage it takes to accept the most money. That’s not courage, it’s self interest. Johnson, Brown, Pavano, Wright and countless others took no consideration to being successful in NY or Boston when they accepted their deals. In the end, there are a ton of players, a list which may include Texiera and Santana, that want absolutely no part of the big markets.
Of course, there are those players (mentioned above) who could care less about the city, fans or orgainization and just want the money. All I’m saying is that the Yanks are not the sole player in this game of big contracts. They could very well be outdone by other teams, or equaled by other teams, in which case, how is the advantage to NY? Because it’s NY? I can’t see the logic in that argument. If LAA offers close to or equal money, what’s the deal breaker? Winning? Well, one of our teams has to get back to doing that before I can count that as the most important factor, because as it stands now, neither of us have a winning leg to stand on.
You seem to be basing your view on the yanks’ inactivity in a very weak FA year, though. Baseball is financially healthy right now; obviously the price of players is going up, so yes, other teams are going to spend.
“Johnson, Brown, Pavano, Wright and countless others took no consideration to being successful in NY or Boston when they accepted their deals.”
C’mon Brad, how do you know this?
” neither of us have a winning leg to stand on.”
The yanks won 101,95,and 97 games in the last 3 yrs.
yanks’ inactivity in a very weak FA year
maybe so, Andrews. I also base it on the high level of activity for other teams in a weak FA year. How does that project for a stong FA year? I still stand by the idea that the Yanks not being into it is because they really didn’t have the need to be. The craziness can only go so far, and they knew they had to get some guys off the books, which they did (kudos to that).
If MT, Santana, and Zambrano have any sense of worth, they’re going to look at the contracts given this year, and make adjustments accordingly. This will eliminate most teams, but there are still some (Boston, LAA, LA, Mets, Cards…) who will offer the big money. The Yanks inactiveness this year is not the factor, and in fact, made sense for the most part, but it’s not going to change the plan of attack for the other teams wanting to sign these players.
Yeah, I’m assuming that those players will always hang their hats on the records that the team posted over that time.
I mean, I nearly always look back to the Big East baseball championships in college, and even though we lost, I take more pride in the fact that we had a good record getting there. That win loss record makes all the difference in terms of resume when teams get bounced in the playoffs year after year.
In fact, I just heard Peyton Manning say that he’s not upset over his playoff record because his team consistently wins 13 or 14 games a year, and in his mind (along with Marino), that’s all that really matters.
I don’t think the Mets and Cards belong in the same list with the yanks, boston and LAA. There is a limit to what Wilpon is willing to spend. My guess is that you will not see the Mets continue their spree of ’05 – ’06.
“it’s not going to change the plan of attack for the other teams wanting to sign these players.”
Of course not, but the yanks have a history of not being outspent on players they feel they must have.
On another, more interesting note, EEI is reporting that Matsuzaka will be working out in California on Friday. I’m sure that workout is going to be all over the place. I’m really hoping that he goes a couple innings in that last set of ST games in Philly this year. Last year, Clement was the starter for the Friday night game, which should be the slot Matsuzaka is in this year.
but the yanks have a history of not being outspent on players they feel they must have.
Or, other teams have a history of refusing getting into that next level of spending, which some now have. Who would have thought the Cubs would go where they did? Toronto?
My point is that until the yanks are actually outspent, you should hold off with your assumption.
“offers close to or equal money, what’s the deal breaker? Winning? ”
Safe to say that 4 WS titles since ’96 means a winning tradition.
Okay, I’m out. Nice points, Andrews. I gotta go to class, which (and this is cool), the professor is the cousin of Dave McNally, who was a 20 game winner for the orioles a few times.
I gotta go to work too. Have a good one.
ah, the 4 WS titles since 96 argument. I know sooner or later you’d get there, A. Just you and those memories alone in the dark. The glory days. Today means nothing; getting bounced from the playoffs for years there after, making it less and less further along each time makes no difference whatsoever. A winning tradition it does make, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and not winning in the fashion which they have, it creates it’s own nice little tradition.
You sound a little like Jacque Clouseau :)
I’ll take what we’ve had. Got to get there to win it…
…i never thought we’d be having the discussion where sf’s are suggesting that other teams might be getting as evil as the original evil empire…
“…not winning in the fashion which they have, it creates it’s own nice little tradition….”
brad, i know this conversation has been mostly in jest, but re. your comment here, do you really want to go there?…
“which I don’t believe furthers the conversation.”
It makes the point that yfs for a long time have been saying, “When we get (certain players) …” Sometimes that doesn’t happen. It’s just a reminder that going into this offseason, some thought the Yanks were locks to get Zito and/or Matsuzaka. They got neither. Assuming that two years from now, they’ll just pick up Santana and Teixiera is equally fallacious. Consideering how much further the conversation’s come since I posted that, I guess I did all right, logical fallacies aside. ;-)
“C’mon, Paul, blanket statements about a fanbase aren’t cool.”
I agree, Andrews, which is why I listed it as the “stereotypical” arrogance, ie. a reaction that upholds the stereotypes of the fanbase. If I wanted to generalize about all yfs, I would have just said, “Yankee-fan arrogance.”
“but the yanks have a history of not being outspent on players they feel they must have.”
Except Carlos Beltran. And Daisuke Matsuzaka.
“My point is that until the yanks are actually outspent, you should hold off with your assumption.”
This gets it exactly backwards. The initial point was, and still is: Until the Yanks actually win the bidding, everyone should hold off all their assumptions. Stop reinforcing the fat-cat Yankee stereotype by smugly (or “quietly,” to use dc’s characterization) asserting that WHEN the Yanks sign the top two players on the market 18 months from now, etc. Doesn’t look good and isn’t at all a reflection of the current state of baseball’s finances.
ugh, now i’m smug [and a poet]
“stereotypical” arrogance, ie. a reaction that upholds the stereotypes of the fanbase. If I wanted to generalize about all yfs, I would have just said, “Yankee-fan arrogance.”
Paul, that’s so weak. Semantic hair- splitting aside, you ARE generalizing about all YF’s. Please. When a YF on this site makes a blanket statement about RSN, there is typically a whole chorus of SF’s shouting him down.Let’s not have a double standard, OK?
“Except Carlos Beltran. And Daisuke Matsuzaka.”
These are not good examples: If you remember, Beltran was offered to the Yanks at a huge discount, and they passed. Obviously he doesn’t qualify as a “player they had to have”, and as I said earlier, D Mat was won in a blind auction – no chance for a counterbid.
“This gets it exactly backwards. The initial point was, and still is: Until the Yanks actually win the bidding, everyone should hold off all their assumptions”
What? I was responding to Brad’s assumption that: ” the Yankees outbidding all comers is not so much of a sure thing as it used to be.” Until the Yanks are actually outspent in the FA market, it’s not off the mark to believe they will get what they really want. That’s not the ” the fat-cat Yankee stereotype”, just a reasonable belief based on the history of these matters…
“Paul, that’s so weak. Semantic hair- splitting aside, you ARE generalizing about all YF’s”
The only thing I was generalizing was that there is a stereotype of the Yankees and their fans as arrogant, and that the comment in question played into those stereotypes. I specifically stopped and added that word to make it clear that I was not tarring all yfs with that brush. That you took it wrong is regrettable, and I tried to clarigy; that you refuse to believe me for whatever reason is not my problem.
My refusal to believe you is based not just on this post but your history in this matter.
Stereotypes are oftentimes ugly things, don’t you agree? They’re assumptions that all members of a particular group share the (usually bad) qualities of a few.Please resist the urge to use them.
I’ll ignore the condescending tone of your post to agree that stereotypes are ugly things, and that we should avoid using them, and to add that we should try to break away from the stereotypes that are already tagged to our respective fanbases — which was the subtext of my original point, though inartfully stated.
” the condescending tone”
That was not intended, sorry.
“Much like one Yank fan said at the beginning of this offseason that the Yanks would end up with both Zito and Matsuzaka?”
I would love to have taken a poll on how many YF’s A: Wanted Zito and B: Thought we would get both. I for one will say I never wanted Zito, ever. As for Dice-K, can’t say I wasn’t intriuged.
“Except Carlos Beltran. And Daisuke Matsuzaka.”
The Yankees didn’t lose out on the Beltran sweepstakes, they passed.
Dice-K was a blind bid. The Mets lost out too coming in 2nd. The Sox bid was over the top and they won. I wouldn’t call that getting beat.
I am sorry Andrews if this sounds like repitition, but I get so angry. Not all Yankee fans have the “fat cat” mentality.
Hear, Hear, Trisk
As I remember it, Beltran offered to take less money to play with the Yankees. All they had to do was say ‘yes’…but they were idiots.
Wonder how different things would be with 3 ultra-superstars on the same team? Or would Beltran fade more into the ‘background’ ala Giambi?
Either way, I can’t really remember a time when the Yankees were legitimately ‘outbid’. And that’s not exactly a good thing.
Beltran or RJ. Ya, doesn’t look so good anymore. Of course, Beltran also had that bad year, but then batting in that lineup it’s hard to have a bad year..
SI.com is reporting Bernie Williams has been invited to Spring training with the yanks as a non guaranteed non roster player.
Barry Bonds according to his agent is refusing to sign the revised contract sent to him by the Giants after the inital contract was rejected by MLB.
…stereotyping aside, what about my comment was arrogant?…i simply made the statement that i believe that the yanks will end up with santana and tex, either through FA or a trade…i’m making some big assumptions that the yanks will continue to be major players in FA, that they can deal with the teams involved if necessary, that the players will want to play in ny, and that the yanks will want both of them [don’t know why not, but you never know]…why is that arrogant?…i’d be offended except that i’m used to this kind of treatment from SOME [no stereotyping] sf’s, especially on this site, and i don’t happen to be particularly sensitive [like SOME sf’s]…revising history like citing the beltran case as an example of yankee failure is tiring, just as the other sf double-standards are on this site: joking, hyping prospects, measuring success, and so on…i may have a bit of a rep on this site, partly deserved, but some of the charges that get leveled at times approach being extremely unfair…
…that was me…not sure why it’s anon, i’m using a different desktop today…
that the players will want to play in ny
This may not be arrogance, but it is presumptuous. Many players do NOT want to play in New York, or at least want control over no-trade clauses which allow them to prevent a move to New York if they so feel.
…i agree it’s presumptuous sf, but why am i criticized for that, and called arrogant?…isn’t half of what were doing in these conversations conjecture about what we think might happen, and the other half comment about what has happened?…are you guys being presumptuous and arrogant about how your rebuilt lineup and pitching staff will do?…why have the conversations at all if we have to dodge the [non-kidding] insults?…
I wasn’t attacking you. In fact, I was pretty much defending you against a charge of arrogance.
On the other hand (there’s always an other hand, right?), it’s always seemed to me that Yankees fans are the ones who talk about “if we want a player, we’ll get him”, more than fans of any other team, without considering whether a player even has interest in the team itself. It’s like the pinstripes are some sort of irresistable tractor beam. This is different than your typical conjecture, and that’s the context in which I think you were called arrogant, perhaps unfairly.
…thanks for the defense and the explanation sf…the arrogance was unintended, but like i say, the presumption by all of us is part of the normal character of these conversations we have…the yankees lost out on a number of premier players who made it clear they wouldn’t play for ny…some have it in their contracts…at least they’re up front about it, and won’t just take the money…
“…stereotyping aside, what about my comment was arrogant?…i simply made the statement that i believe that the yanks will end up with santana and tex, either through FA or a trade.”
If you had said that, DC, I wouldn’t have said anything about it. I also believe the Yanks will probably wind up with one or both of them somehow.
What you said, however, was:
“i’ve been saying for some time now that the yanks will end up with both j santana and tex…”
Which struck me at the time as basically saying, “The Yanks will get em. No worries.” Strangely, it strikes me less so now. Maybe I was just in a bad mood yesterday. Meh…
no sweat buddy…we all have ’em…in re-reading my 2 comments i honestly don’t see the difference, but then again, i had the advantage of knowing my intent…which is to be confident that all things considered the yanks do have to be considered the frontrunner for most free agents…other teams have stepped up, but the yanks willingness to vastly overpay for the guys they think they want [at the time] is unequaled…hee
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