‘Pin-Strife at Camp Chaos’

Great headline in the NY Post today — if you’re not a Yankee fan, that is. For once, the Yankees sound like the Red Sox of when I was growing up — when Mo Vaughn and John Valentin weren’t getting contract extensions fast enough for their liking, Jose Canseco was ripping the front office and agitating for a trade, and Mike Greenwell was throwing firebombs at the team on his way out the door. To recap the Yankee season of discontent:

  • Gary Sheffield rips Joe Torre for his decisions during the playoffs against Detroit.
  • Bubba Crosby says the Yankee clubhouse didn’t have much comeraderie: "It felt like everyone would go their own separate ways." Have the Yankees become the Red Sox? That sounds suspiciously like "25 players, 25 cabs."
  • Of course, there’s the question of whether Jeter will let A-Rod play in the sandbox with him.
  • As YF noted below, Bernie Williams’ Yankee career is apparently over after many months of uncertainty.
  • And Mariano still wants his contract extended now, rather than later.
84 comments… add one
  • and yet somehow, i’m still excited and optomistic. i don’t care who gets along and who doesn’t. I don’t care if an aging, me-first player rips a manager who did everything he could to fit him into the lineup. I don’t care if a career utility outfielder rips a team who had better utility outfielders to use. I don’t care about contract extensions.
    All i care about is whether or not a good team is going to be fielded this year. I think this team has built upon last years, while also thinking ahead. there are weaknesses and question marks, but what team doesn’t have those. Overall, what I care about is that this team has a damn good chance to win the division again, and make a run at a championship. Playball..

    m.g. yanks fan February 21, 2007, 11:36 am
  • nice title, Paul. It’s funny to me that when this was the Red Sox, it’s all that Yankee fans could point out to us, but now, they don’t care. Not getting on you, m.g., but I’m sure you are able to recognize the double standard in place here this time around. In fact, I’m sure that you are genuine in your statements, but as a whole, I think it’s funny the flip-flop taking place here. I for one think clubhouse continuity is overrated, and teams can in fact thrive with components not being best friends, or even friends at all.

    Brad February 21, 2007, 11:52 am
  • Does anyone honestly care what Bubba Crosby and Gary Sheffield have to say about ANYTHING?
    – Sheff was obviously gonna start mouthing off about the Yankees this spring because he is Sheff and needs to have beef with someone.
    -Bubba Crosby complains about being cut? Please see Bubba’s stats in his few years in pinstripes if you dont undstand why this is laughable.

    sam YF February 21, 2007, 11:56 am
  • NESN will be televising Matsuzaka’s debut against BC. I can’t wait to see it. I’m sure he’s only going to go one or two innings, but I can’t wait regardless.

    Brad February 21, 2007, 11:56 am
  • no offense taken. i honestly don’t care. i also don’t care if the red sox get along or if they’re bitching and moaning. i wasn’t here for any of that discussion, but i honestly don’t care. what happens on the field (and trades, etc) are what matters. i’m excited for this season, and honestly think it’s going to be a very tight race. i can even see the blue jays causing some trouble.
    all this tabloid stuff is silly, and really is only good for ragging on friends who support other teams (my friends who are sox and mets fans have been sending me emails all week).
    other than that, who cares.

    m.g. yanks fan February 21, 2007, 11:59 am
  • Bubba loves the team chemistry on the Reds who with their happy-go-lucky attitude are going to rally to a second-to-last place finish in the NL Central. Again, why does this matter?

    Nick-YF February 21, 2007, 12:00 pm
  • Yeah, but the difference is while the Yankees have had all this ‘bad chemistry’, they still won. The Sox sucked back then, the Yankees are the best team in baseball. It’s hard to make fun of a team that’s had about a .600 winning percentage over the past however many years.
    Second of all, the players that are actually complaining are the players who didn’t ‘get the respect’ they deserve. Bubba doesn’t deserve any respect whatsoever, he was worse than most of the AAA roster. Gary Sheffield was an injured old man who couldn’t play the field anymore, well hey we already got one of those, but his contract was more palatable for other clubs. Would it have been great if Sheff had never gotten injured and put up another great season, probably leading the Yanks to win 100 games, and then been kept on this year instead of Abreu? Sure, but that’s not the way it happened.
    All I heard when the Yanks annihilated the Sox back in August was how great they were working together as a team and all that. Then four games vs. Detroit turns them into a petulant bunch who can’t do anything right? Please. This is all a bunch of nonsense. Maybe if the Yanks were putting up below .500 seasons we’d be bitter and look back on this time as regrettable, but that’s just not the case. Nice try.

    Andrew February 21, 2007, 12:00 pm
  • “I for one think clubhouse continuity is overrated, and teams can in fact thrive with components not being best friends, or even friends at all.”
    What’s the news here? Hasn’t the yankee clubhouse dynamic been called “corporate” for years?
    I agree Brad.
    All successful teams don’t have to have the Peter Pan syndrome – some can win when actually acting like adults.

    Andrews February 21, 2007, 12:03 pm
  • I agree, Brad. And I’m not trying to say that this means the Yanks are gonna wind up like the 1997 Sox (although that sure would be nice). But when you’ve got so many distractions, it certainly can’t help your chances success. I’m also on the record as saying I believe chemistry is overrated — when you win, you’re going to have great chemistry, and when you struggle, you generally will not. And most writers really have no idea what the team’s true chemistry is.
    As an example, all the questions last year were centered on how would the Sox be able to have any positive chemistry without Millar, Damon, Mueller, etc.? Yet when the team tanked, there was little-to-no griping, abckstabbing, etc. Yet in 2005, when the team struggled a bit but still tied for the division lead at the end, you had a lot of infighting and backstabbing. It’s just an unknown quantity that sportswriters tend to overemphasize.
    Still, how ’bout that ARod-Jeter relationship, eh?

    Paul SF February 21, 2007, 12:05 pm
  • the Yankees are the best team in baseball.
    I’ll assume you mean this statement as a historical reference as well, right?
    Also, the “nice try” ending is kind of rough to Paul, since all he’s stating are facts. Sheffield did say something, that whether you like it or not, is probably correct. Torre did make a mistake, and he called him out on it. Bubba, on the other hand, I can’t speak for. He expressed his opinion, and you have to take it at face value unless you know otherwise.
    And, Sam: I think what you mean to say when you mention “anybody care” is “do Yankee fans care”. The rest of us are in fact interested in hearing Sheffield rip Joe Torre. Again, can’t say as much about Bubba, but it’s pretty funny nonetheless.

    Brad February 21, 2007, 12:08 pm
  • “still tied for the division lead at the end”
    Minor point, but the record books see that differently.
    “And Mariano still wants his contract extended now, rather than later.”
    How is this different from Schilling’s grumblings?

    Andrews February 21, 2007, 12:12 pm
  • What’s the news here? Hasn’t the yankee clubhouse dynamic been called “corporate” for years?
    The news here is that it’s now not. The Yankee clubhouse couldn’t be further from what it has been over the past ten years. There are problems (media created or not) all over the place there. The news is, that in the past, say 1998 on, there was never this kind of distraction on this team. That core of Jeter, Posada, Mo, and others were all on the same page, and now it seems as if there is some kind of problems (again, probably more media than anything) to cause distraction.
    It’s been a very long time since NY has had this problem, so corporate, it’s not. Unless you want to include rumors and backstabbing, which are definitely part of the corporate world!
    I think we’re probably all in agreement here, so the argument is bound to go nowhere! ha.

    Brad February 21, 2007, 12:16 pm
  • How is this different from Schilling’s grumblings?
    It’s not. If you don’t look at the history of the clubs, which clearly points to the fact that NY has always given their staples the contracts they clearly deserved, while Boston has been more apt to let them grow old somewhere else. If you don’t look at it in that point of view, they’re exactly the same. Both deserve contracts, and both should get them.

    Brad February 21, 2007, 12:18 pm
  • “The Yankee clubhouse couldn’t be further from what it has been over the past ten years.”
    Based on what, sour grapes from 2 former yankees? Please. There have always been these kinds of things – David Well’s book, Bernie’s possible defection to the sox, Giambi’s “apology”, etc going on during ST.
    “include rumors and backstabbing”
    Examples, please? Are you talking about Mussina calling out Pavano? IMO, that doesn’t qualify as backstabbing.

    Andrews February 21, 2007, 12:25 pm
  • “NY has always given their staples the contracts they clearly deserved”
    And now, with Cashman empowered, things are different. IMO a more savvy approach.

    Andrews February 21, 2007, 12:28 pm
  • “Both deserve contracts, and both should get them.”
    At their age, don’t you think it’s wiser to wait until after the season to determine that? Don’t get me wrong, if they don’t resign Mo, I’ll grieve, but this approach is better for the team’s future.

    Andrews February 21, 2007, 12:30 pm
  • I agree, somewhat. By backstabbing, I meant A-Rod making sure that he got to the press first, said his piece, and kind of threw Jeter under the bus. Or, the examples you cite are just as effective for this argument.
    Both do deserve their contracts, and if they get them or not is not up to us. If Mo is closing games for another team, or if Schilling is winning games for another team, it’s going to suck for both of us. And while I agree that it’s fiscally responsible, why get all greedy now? Why is now the proper time to start hoarding the money? Because Cashman is in charge and NY has this new “philosophy”? Why? Because they did what they had to do and din’t overspend on Zito? We need to calm down with the money issue. NY has it, has always spent it (unwisely at times) and owes at least one year deals to Mo. But, if you’re comfortable with the idea of him leaving for the good of the “future”, more power to you. What is the future, by the way? Even when he loses a few steps, he’s better than anything out there, much less whatever the future is.
    Why am I arguing FOR Mariano? Jesus, I hope he leaves for greener pastures.

    Brad February 21, 2007, 12:38 pm
  • It has been frustrating that Yankee ST has been such an opera thus far. I’m sure Jeter wasn’t thrilled about Alex adding grist to the mill. But, truly, this is all nothing, and hopefully will be forgotten by week 2 of March. The Yankees don’t even have a roster yet, so carping about the chemistry now is premature. Sheffield can gripe about Joe all he wants: he’s still the gold standard, or one of them out there, despite the occassional issue some might have. Bubba Crosby: honestly, I feel bad for the guy. He never did get the shot to play, and his career permanently stalled. Doesn’t make his obnoxious comments any more acceptable, though. And, frankly, he never deserved much time. So, too bad for him. The contract stuff will all be resolved–and if not, the Yanks will move on. Fine. And Bernie will eventually have his 51 retired. So. Let’s get to the guys actually playing on the field. PLEASE! Because there’s so much to be excited about in Yankeeland this year. It’s a great roster, there are some great stories, and there’s a youth movement we haven’t seen for decades. It’s a great time to be a Yankee fan. Don’t be fooled by the tabs or distracted by extraneous bs.

    YF February 21, 2007, 12:40 pm
  • It has been frustrating that Yankee ST has been such an opera thus far. I’m sure Jeter wasn’t thrilled about Alex adding grist to the mill. But, truly, this is all nothing, and hopefully will be forgotten by week 2 of March. The Yankees don’t even have a roster yet, so carping about the chemistry now is premature. Sheffield can gripe about Joe all he wants: he’s still the gold standard, or one of them out there, despite the occassional issue some might have. Bubba Crosby: honestly, I feel bad for the guy. He never did get the shot to play, and his career permanently stalled. Doesn’t make his obnoxious comments any more acceptable, though. And, frankly, he never deserved much time. So, too bad for him. The contract stuff will all be resolved–and if not, the Yanks will move on. Fine. And Bernie will eventually have his 51 retired. So. Let’s get to the guys actually playing on the field. PLEASE! Because there’s so much to be excited about in Yankeeland this year. It’s a great roster, there are some great stories, and there’s a youth movement we haven’t seen for decades. It’s a great time to be a Yankee fan. Don’t be fooled by the tabs or distracted by extraneous bs.

    YF February 21, 2007, 12:40 pm
  • “A-Rod making sure that he got to the press first, said his piece, and kind of threw Jeter under the bus.”
    If you listen to the interview, you’ll find that your statement is entirely inaccurate; he didn’t “throw Jeter under the bus” in any way, shape or form. I think it’s on LoHud.
    “NY has this new “philosophy”? Why?”
    Because Cashman has avoided overpriced free agents and made wise trades and signings, which have protected and replenished the farm.
    “if you’re comfortable with the idea of him leaving for the good of the “future” ”
    At this point, no, but waiting until after the season is the smart choice. I’m relatively sure that Mo will remain a Yankee for the rest of his career.
    “I hope he leaves for greener pastures.”
    Hilarious!!

    Andrews February 21, 2007, 12:48 pm
  • Again, not to say it’s completely the Yankees’ fault, but the pinstripes have become the image of Major League Baseball’s core deficiencies — a corporation structured behind the ideals of the Republican party where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.
    It’s 2007 thinking spreading nationwide. And the Yankees are to blame. It’s alwasy the Yankees Fault not the Redsox or Cubs and Mets
    In 1998, the year the Yankees won 114 regular season games and the first of three straight World Series, it was the Orioles, not the Yankees, who had the highest opening day salary. In 1999 and 2000, the payroll disparity between the Yankees and the other top teams was minimal. Those Yankees teams won more because of heart and determination than money. Since passing the $100 million mark in 2001, the Yankees have not won a World Series. From 1982-1995,the Yankees had plenty of resourses and yet they won nothing during those years.
    Ofcourse, having a higher payroll puts them at an advantage over some teams. But, there are many other wealthy teams such as the Angles, Cubs, Dodgers, Mets, White Sox and Red Sox, just to name a few.
    People look at the Yankees wealth as the cause of all that is wrong with the world. They assume that the Yankees money is the only reason for their success. Yet they fail to recognize that perhaps it could be the other way around – that their wealth is a byproduct of a nearly a century’s worth of dominance. Why shouldn’t their sustained success be rewarded? Why should the Yankees have to share their money, which they earn, with the Pittsburgh’s and Tampa Bays of the world? Why is it the Yankee’s fault that the Pirates or the Brewers dont win?
    The fact is that they are a scapegoat for fans of other teams who blame the Yankees for the failures of their own teams.
    The worst New York fans are the Mets fans, not the Yankee fans. The Mets fans act like they are some power house in baseball when they haven’t won in forever. Look at their payroll as well, they can’t buy a championship either.

    AngryYankeeFan February 21, 2007, 12:52 pm
  • BFD. Red Sox Nation wishful-thinking schadenfreude is nothing new. AYF may be right about payroll — and Cash is trying to deal with that. But YF makes it clear that SFs care about this more than YFs.

    john February 21, 2007, 1:00 pm
  • The Yankees are the worst in all of sports when they win and the worst in all of sports when they lose. When they win it’s because they’re supposed to and when they lose it’s because there is no way all of that high-priced talent can come together as a team. I guess you’re damned if you do and damned it you don’t. That’s a pretty rough standard to be held to.
    The Yankees won four World Series in five years behind homegrown talent, including Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Bernie Williams, Jorge Posada and Andy Pettitte.

    AngryYankeeFan February 21, 2007, 1:01 pm
  • The Yankees are the worst in all of sports when they win and the worst in all of sports when they lose. When they win it’s because they’re supposed to and when they lose it’s because there is no way all of that high-priced talent can come together as a team. I guess you’re damned if you do and damned it you don’t. That’s a pretty rough standard to be held to.
    The Yankees won four World Series in five years behind homegrown talent, including Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera, Bernie Williams, Jorge Posada and Andy Pettitte.

    AngryYankeeFan February 21, 2007, 1:02 pm
  • I think the interview, which I did listen to, is open to opinion. You don’t want to think this was A-Rod’s agenda, so you interpret it one way, while the rest of the world went the other. If it wasn’t a big deal, and it didn’t seem as if A-Rod was calling both himself and Jeter liars, the media (including all the NY ones) would not have run with it to the extreme they did. Much less, Jeter offering quiet rebuttle.
    I mean, even our host (YF) mentions this in his post by saying Jeter could not have appreciated A-Rod’s comments.
    I honestly believe Mo and Schill are cut from the same cloth. They are both very, very proud athletes. Both are deserved all the praise they get, and both are probably more genuine in the “respect” category they both passed out there. I have no qualms in believing Schilling will leave if he feels as if he’s not being respected. Mo, I feel is the same way. What’s one year contracts to these two teams? Again, why get all stingy now? It’s not a risk I’m willing to accept as “fiscally responsible” or “plan for the future”. Both are going to be productive this year, and there is a good chance, for the year following this one. Why risk upsetting the calm water by making that player feel as if the team believes they can’t do it anymore, when the rest of the world thinks they can.
    Clearly it’s a risk, but I think a good one. I think your arguement that Mo “will be a Yankee for life” is overrated if you take into account his own pride. You think that because you are a fan. If he does leave, you’ll be absolutely fired up after the fact. If, next year the Yankees are holding auditions for closer because Mo felt disrespected by Cashman (which by the way will be hilarious), I think your view of the situation will be slightly different.
    Okay, rebut then let’s move on. This is never going anywhere.
    ha.

    Brad February 21, 2007, 1:02 pm
  • BFD. Red Sox Nation wishful- thinking schadenfreude is nothing new. AYF may be right about payroll — and Cash is trying to deal with that. But YF makes it clear that SFs care about this more than YFs.

    john February 21, 2007, 1:05 pm
  • I won’t downplay team chemistry, but I can’t say I am too worried. The media has a job, let them do it. Happy Yankee camps don’t sell papers or magazines.
    As for Bubba and Sheff, they are gone and really don’t matter. Sheff is a blowhard and loves to hear himself speak. I disliked him as a Yankee, I hate him as a Tiger. Bubba Crosby? We talkin ’bout Bubba Crosby? Bubba Crosby? Sorry I was channeling AI there for a minute. He should focus on making the Reds, that will be more then enough work for him. If only these 2 loud mouths could have focused on catching that ball in Anaheim like they are focusing on the Yankees team unity.

    Triskaidekaphobia February 21, 2007, 1:07 pm
  • “I honestly believe Mo and Schill are cut from the same cloth.”
    No
    blasphemy

    Nick-YF February 21, 2007, 1:08 pm
  • But YF makes it clear that SFs care about this more than YFs.
    Of course we do. It’s something negative (no matter the extent) about NY. It’s safe to assume that NY fans just want it to go away and could care less. Just like I don’t care about Manny being late, but it seems to be a hot topic, again, on ESPN and the like.
    Angry: The fact that NY AND Boston share the wealth is a good think for baseball. It allows teams with a very limited following like Tampa and KC to pick up players that they couldn’t very well afford otherwise. Harping on the money issue is not only old, but boring. Those who have it and spend it are required to share it for a reason – so other teams can in fact compete. Having a 200mill a year payroll is much, much different than a 45 or 50mill per year. Those teams, that aren’t afforded the luxury of living in NY or Boston, or LA can’t really generate full stadiums every single night. What is your suggestion? Let them flounder and wither away, just leaving a handfull of teams to battle it out every year unchallenged?
    That will make for very, very boring baseball. But, it would however eliminate teams like Florida, Tampa, and others from actively competing for a championship every year. I happen to like the fact that teams are forced to share much more than I like the idea of a salary cap, which is the only viable alternative. You wanna do that?

    Brad February 21, 2007, 1:13 pm
  • good thing, I mean.

    Brad February 21, 2007, 1:14 pm
  • There is no rule against spending the most to get back the most on your product, save luxury tax.
    So people bitching that the Yankees can unfairly spend money are dead wrong. The owners of SEVERAL TEAMS have plenty of money but don’t want to spend it.
    And after what the Sox did this offseason, no Boston fan can ever bring this argument up again.

    AngryYankeeFan February 21, 2007, 1:16 pm
  • so you interpret it one way, while the rest of the world went the other.
    So, you speak for the whole world now? Look, I’m no ARod fan, I obviously want him to succeed because he’s a Yankee, but I was also hoping he would get traded this offseason. That being said, I took his intentions in this interview at face value – IMO he wanted to try and put the friendship issue to rest by confronting it head on. Whether or not this was smart remains to be seen, but I don’t think he was going after Jeter. And I must add that I don’t agree with everything YF says, even though he’s one of the illustrious founders of this site, and the “leader” of the yankee side of things. :)
    “I honestly believe Mo and Schill are cut from the same cloth.”
    Wow, that’s a SERIOUS stretch!!!

    Andrews February 21, 2007, 1:18 pm
  • Nick, you know what I mean. They are both very proud, very serious athletes who feel they deserve to get what they want. Mo’s been on this team for years watching guys all around him, who mean much less to the success of NY than he does, make far more money than he does. I think it would wear on all of us.
    It reminds me of the Seinfeld when George’s secretary got the raise that put her above him in salary. The boss deserves to make more – especially when his name is Mariano Rivera. But, maybe I’m fanning the flames. If I were Cashman, I’d be embarrassed that it even came to this point with Mo. He should have been afforded this chance years ago. Long before RJ, Pavano, Brown, and others ate up reputaion and salary, Mo should have been awarded for his, well, everything.

    Brad February 21, 2007, 1:18 pm
  • And after what the Sox did this offseason, no Boston fan can ever bring this argument up again.
    Why? Has Boston caught NY, and I did not know about it? The fact that Boston did in fact spend what they did, while NY not only didn’t add, but subtracted and STILL were not approached should tell you something about the balance of the situation. Now, imagine you’re the owner of the Devil Rays tring to compete without the luxury of the tax enforced on the two clubs. I’m still waiting for your alternative to what you have such a problem with. What should baseball do?

    Brad February 21, 2007, 1:22 pm
  • So, you speak for the whole world now?
    No, and I didn’t mean to insinuate such. But, on the whole, which way did the media and general public take this? If you suggest anything other than what I’ve said on the issue, then I’ll have to assume that the only media outlets you read re: the press conference were Yankee blogs. If you’d like the links to some of the major publications from Tuesday, I’ll send them to you.

    Brad February 21, 2007, 1:24 pm
  • There is no salary cap in baseball and there never will be thanks to the strongest union in the world. That is the only way to even out the playing field (just like the NFL), but don’t hold your breath. It ain’t gonna happen, baseball has gone on strike for less.
    As for the Red Sox, if the Yankees are the worst in all of sports the Red Sox are not far behind. This is a team that spent $222 million this offseason behind only the Chicago Cubs. (The Yankees rank ninth in offseason spending this year.)
    Sorry if my math is a little off, but as best as I can tell the Yankees’ payroll will be roughly $45 million more than Boston’s this year (and that doesn’t include the posting bids for any of the import pitchers on either team), compared to last season when New York’s payroll was close to $75 million more. Boston is catching up and doing it quickly.
    Look in the mirror. The playing field is slowly but surely being leveled in baseball.
    If the Yanks are the worst in all of sports because they will do whatever it takes, again within the rules, then why even pick a team and devote your time to it?

    AngryYankeeFan February 21, 2007, 1:27 pm
  • The playing field is slowly but surely being leveled in baseball.
    Thank you. Argument over.

    Brad February 21, 2007, 1:31 pm
  • The whole money argument is old and tired. The Sox aren’t the Royals or D-Rays, they spend money too and a great deal of it. They are in the top 2 in spending as they should be. Why are we discussing payroll? Both teams spend an make a ton of money, until there is a cap (and that’s never) there is no point in arguing. I am glad the Yankees are spending my $700 I spent on tickets on a pretty good product.

    Triskaidekaphobia February 21, 2007, 1:34 pm
  • Dude, you’re the only person here who is suggesting that the Yankees are the worst thing in sports. This isn’t LoHud or Bronx Banter. There is some level of respect, albeit somewhat hidden at times, of each team in the title of the page itself. We’re not here to do that, but rather, I think, have valid arguements about valid issues, not call each other names. Although, it does sometime come to that as a last resort!

    Brad February 21, 2007, 1:35 pm
  • all of this fabricated “drama” is pointless. i doubt it will effect the play on the field. these guys are professionals after all.
    i could, off the top of my head, come up with a handful of ridiculous sox storylines that could just as easily be blown out of proportion.
    when is manny showing up? has jd drew actually signed his deal yet? who is closing for the sox this year? (they were kidding about piniero, right?) schilling looks especially plump, doesn’t he? …even for him?
    all of this is so painfully boring. wake me up in april.

    Yankee Fan In Boston February 21, 2007, 1:35 pm
  • Triskaidekaphobia February 21, 2007, 1:44 pm
  • 1) “Sheffield mouthing off?” He was mouthing off before he got here, while he was here, and will continue to mouth off far into retirement. I liked Sheffield here but I doubt this is an issue.
    2) Bubba Crosby? Seriously? We didn’t take Chad Curtis seriously when he made his silly “Jeter/baseball brawl” comments while Chad was ON the team; and Curtis was twice the player for the Yankees that Bubba ever was.
    3) ARod and Jeter is something that people enjoy writing about and has been there since the article with Alex years ago. It’s not new news nor is it “different” news than the Yankees have been dealing with since ARod got here.
    4) the Bernie thing is a bummer; but as a friend of mine said…it’s like a breakup where neither side is willing to say the things that need to be said.
    Here’s a question:
    How disturbing is it for Sox fans that Julian Tavarez is the friend/diplomat for Manny this year? Ouch!

    walein February 21, 2007, 1:47 pm
  • But YF makes it clear that SFs care about this more than YFs.
    Of course we do. It’s something negative (no matter the extent) about NY
    This is the part that a lot of Yankee fans just don’t get.
    Of course we do”?

    john February 21, 2007, 1:47 pm
  • Of course SFs see a chink in the armor and aim straight for it. Much like YFs like to take aim at our closing situation. This is the essense of arguing about baseball (as opposed to talking about things that happened last century). And if you didn’t like arguing about baseball, you probably wouldn’t be here.

    tommy February 21, 2007, 1:58 pm
  • ugh. I hate I did that. typing tooooooo much on this thread. good catch, john. Now I have to cut off a finger.

    Brad February 21, 2007, 1:59 pm
  • “Curtis was twice the player for the Yankees that Bubba ever was”
    Ouch.

    YF February 21, 2007, 2:02 pm
  • “when is manny showing up? has jd drew actually signed his deal yet? who is closing for the sox this year? (they were kidding about piniero, right?) schilling looks especially plump, doesn’t he?”
    YFiB, let me answer those for you, quickly:
    –Drew: Yes.
    — Schilling: No.
    That leaves closer and Manny as the two big issues in Sox camp, and one of those is actually a bona fide position battle that has nothing to do with drama and everything to do with actual baseball performance. So the only question in Sox camp remotely resembling the tumultuous nature of Yanks camp is Manny — and since he’s done this before, no one cares anymore.
    Meanwhile, walein, Tavarez and Manny are good friends. Tavarez has been used as a source for how Manny’s feeling since last season, so this isn’t really surprising or otherwise painful.

    Paul SF February 21, 2007, 2:12 pm
  • YF-
    In 10 years Bubba will be on that Joel Skinner, Rick Cerone, Wayne Tollison list that baseball fans throw out to talk about “lean years.”
    Paul-
    Having Tavarez as your go-to-guy in the clubhouse is like having a less talented Kevin Brown be your go-to-guy in the clubhouse.

    walein February 21, 2007, 3:14 pm
  • “But, on the whole, which way did the media and general public take this? If you suggest anything other than what I’ve said on the issue, then I’ll have to assume that the only media outlets you read re: the press conference were Yankee blogs”
    Since I had access to the recording of the press conference, I drew my own conclusions -I don’t really care how the media and the general public took it. The media is looking for a story when all they’re hearing is:
    ” ____ is hitting his spots”, etc; and as far as the general public is concerned, well, let’s just say they have questionable judgement (presidential choice, etc)
    I assume you’re talking about mainstream media? If so, it seems strange to me to co-sign their assessment of this matter, when so many on this site have such a low opinion of their journalistic worth.
    Paul, if, by your logic, the “only question in Sox camp… is Manny — and since he’s done this before, no one cares anymore.” what constitutes this “tumultuous nature” of Yanks camp?
    Mo’s contract issue = Schilling’s contract issue
    Mussina/Pavano = old issue, only difference now is that it was stated in public
    Arod/Jeter = old, old issue; been there done that
    Sheffield/Bubba = no longer on the team, who cares? That’s like Douggie M talking trash about the sox in ’05 – how detremental was that, in your opinion?
    Bernie = Trot

    Andrews February 21, 2007, 3:27 pm
  • UPDATE:
    Julian Tavarez is now a Red Sox clubhouse leader. This is all you need to know about Boston’s 2006 offseason.

    walein February 21, 2007, 3:30 pm
  • Andews-
    Except Bernie’s better than Trot and much more meaningful to the Yankees. But otherwise you are right, they both play baseball and they both played in the outfield and they both wear baseball caps during the season.

    walein February 21, 2007, 3:32 pm
  • Also,
    Mo’s contract issue = Schilling’s contract issue.
    No.

    walein February 21, 2007, 3:33 pm
  • walein,
    I didn’t mean to diss Bernie – he’s one of my favorites.

    Andrews February 21, 2007, 3:37 pm
  • “Also,
    Mo’s contract issue = Schilling’s contract issue. No.”
    Explain the difference, then.

    Andrews February 21, 2007, 3:39 pm
  • I know Andrews. I just had a shot of espresso and took a break from work and started flying away there.
    Update:
    “‘Face of the Red Sox’ Julian Tavarez says “Manny Ramirez is awesome!”

    walein February 21, 2007, 3:42 pm
  • Mariano Rivera is arguably the most important component of the Yankee dynasty. If there is anything close in the Red Sox history it might be Roger Clemens. Barring some kind of scary injury this season to Mariano’s arm I doubt there is any Yankee fan that feels that Mariano Rivera won’t be a dominant closer for as long as he thinks he can be.
    He may not be THE dominant closer in baseball for the next few years, but there is a very short list of closers any of our teams would want to have.
    Also, Curt Schilling has been injured and bad the past two years.
    Mariano has been slightly injured and great his entire career.

    walein February 21, 2007, 3:47 pm
  • walein, what’s with the obsession of Tavarez and Manny being friends? Isn’t being the friend of a teammate a good thing?
    Also, you guys are taking the Mo comparison to friggin far, as usual. All I said was the two were both proud athletes who deserve to be obliged with a contract by the front office.

    Brad February 21, 2007, 3:54 pm
  • I’m not arguing the relative worth of the two players; I’m merely saying that Mo’s contract issue is no more of a distraction in yanks camp than Schilling’s is in sox camp.

    Andrews February 21, 2007, 3:55 pm
  • Yankee fan that feels that Mariano Rivera won’t be a dominant closer for as long as he thinks he can be.
    but where? Are you sure of what you’d like to believe? Are you sure that Mo won’t be offended by not being offered a contract and set out to prove people stupid?

    Brad February 21, 2007, 3:56 pm
  • ” what’s with the obsession of Tavarez and Manny being friends? Isn’t being the friend of a teammate a good thing?”
    What’s that old saying about lying down with dogs? :)

    Andrews February 21, 2007, 3:57 pm
  • I’m merely saying that Mo’s contract issue is no more of a distraction in yanks camp than Schilling’s is in sox camp.
    ______
    Who said it was?

    Brad February 21, 2007, 3:58 pm
  • yeah, I’ve always said the same thing about, you know, Giambi and his buddies. That whole dog thing is a bit overrated, but I’m sure the Yanks would not have minded having a “dog” who could do what Manny does. Okay, okay. A-Rod. :)

    Brad February 21, 2007, 4:02 pm
  • “Are you sure that Mo won’t be offended by not being offered a contract and set out to prove people stupid?”
    I know this possibility makes sf’s quake with excitement, and nothing is a sure thing in baseball, but I’m not really worried about Mo leaving. Based on what I’ve seen from him over the past 11 seasons, I don’t think he’s a vindictive person, and I also think that he wants to finish his career with the yanks.

    Andrews February 21, 2007, 4:02 pm
  • The difference is that Schilling’s extension issue and Manny are the ONLY issues in Sox camp, and Manny’s situation has been barely covered and has apparently been barely mentioned in Sox camp.
    Schilling, meanwhile, said he’d never go to the Yankees. Rivera said he might go to the Sox. This makes Rivera’s issue suddenly a bigger deal than Schilling’s.
    This is really silly, though. Media coverage is how we determine these things, and thus far the NY media have jumped all over what they think are “distractions” and have turned them into, well, distractions. The Boston media are absorbed primarily with Matsuzaka and have thus pushed the few potential distractions well into the background.
    I’m just glad the problems — however real they actually are — are in Tampa, not Fort Myers.

    Paul SF February 21, 2007, 4:04 pm
  • “Who said it was?”
    I was responding to walein, see above.
    “Yanks would not have minded having a “dog” who could do what Manny does.”
    The dog I was refering to is Tavarez

    Andrews February 21, 2007, 4:05 pm
  • “This is really silly, though”
    You’re right. Can’t they get some friggin’ games going already??? This “hitting spots” nonsense is boring.

    Andrews February 21, 2007, 4:10 pm
  • gotcha.

    Brad February 21, 2007, 4:13 pm
  • Newsflash:
    The Red Sox’s clubhouse hero, Julian Tavarez, released a statement today concerning dogs and Manny Ramirez and how dogs are dogs and Manny Ramirez is a super great right-hand hitting baseball player.

    walein February 21, 2007, 4:26 pm
  • … and take care when punching dugout walls – if you break your hand it hurts like hell the next time you have to field a hot shot…

    Andrews February 21, 2007, 4:45 pm
  • Wow, this is silly. Does any Sox fan really think that Gary Sheffield and Bubba Crosby, both ex-Yankees with clear grudges against the team are any kind of barometer of clubhouse sentiment? How stupid would YFs look if Adam Stern issued a statement about how he was frozen out, how Tito was an ass, and then spent countless posts using this as evidence of real problems for our team?
    As for using the idea that Tavarez relayed information about Manny (which he had because they are friends) to crap on the Sox, that’s similarly shallow.

    SF February 21, 2007, 5:54 pm
  • How terrible to behold, these lightning bolts from Olympus!!

    Andrews February 21, 2007, 6:49 pm
  • Talk about much ado about nothing.
    Hey Paul, how come every time Shaughnessy or Chass or some other writer pens an unflattering piece about the Sox, you come unglued and can’t believe the inept, total horseshit that passes for journalism and then do a major league character assassination of said writer, BUT, when some other douchebag trying to suck readers in with a catchy headline to go along with a bunch of mostly irrelevant tripe that happens to be about the Yankees, trots out an article it’s suddenly some kind of gospel truth, Pulitzer Prize winning gold?
    This Alex-Derek thing is so stupid it’s unreal. You’ve got all these journalistic jackals down in Florida trying to sniff out a story and preferably a story that will pique the interest of their readers, so they go so far as to ask these leading questions to try to get a reaction, and then it just goes on from there. Arod and Jeter both tried to say the right things but writers can read just about anything they want into any comment, and then put it in print.
    Ya know, as far as clubhouse chemistry goes, and some here that would suggest that it’s a big deal, the Oakland A’s of the early ’70s used to get along like cats and dogs but won 3 straight World Series. I was living in the Bay Area at the time. The Yankees of the late ’70s, you know, the Bronx Zoo crowd? Reggie Jackson came to town and promptly said, “I’m the straw that stirs the drink, Munson doesn’t really enter into it,” inciting a feud that went on till Munson was killed in that plane crash. Graig Nettles once decked Reggie at a party being attended by some Yankee players. Reggie hated Nettles and vice-versa. And then there was Billy Martin. Who could forget that game on National TV when Billy pulled Reggie in the middle of an inning for not hustling and when Reggie came off the field, he voiced his displeasure resulting in Billy coming unhinged and having to be restrained by about 4 guys from attacking Jackson. And these are just a couple of instances of the flareups that team had. Meanwhile, they won back to back World Series in ’77-78.
    Imagine if today’s journalists had fodder like this for their stories. They’d think they’d died and gone to journalistic heaven.
    But they have to come up with something so they write all this overblown, he said-she said crap.
    Personally, I’m looking forward to at least the start of the exhibition games, as maybe the results and performances of the players on the field will give the writers and the bloggers something else to debate.

    Whatever February 21, 2007, 6:53 pm
  • … but SF, you’re absolutely right.
    and whatever: well said.

    Andrews February 21, 2007, 7:08 pm
  • WE:
    You are right for the most part. Now you have to promise to not chime in if Manny becomes a topic of controversy for everyone but his team. Promise?
    P.S. The Bronx Zoo was one of my favorite books growing up, so much so that when I moved to NYC I searched out a first printing of it for my library. I loved it even despite the team it was about.

    SF February 21, 2007, 7:18 pm
  • SF, Who cares what Manny does if he continues to hit like he has in the past? I was once again this off season hoping the Sox would trade him. No such luck.

    Whatever February 21, 2007, 7:28 pm
  • zzzzzzzzz

    dc February 21, 2007, 7:36 pm
  • The man touted as “The embodiment of all things great and pure in the Red Sox organization”, Julian Tavarez, says that Manny’s got some cars to auction off in N E W Jerz where many muders occurz. He’ll report to spring training when he’s “feelin it.”

    walein February 21, 2007, 9:22 pm
  • WE, I didn’t realize the New York Post was in need of calling out as a pseudojournalistic publication. Figured this was common knowledge.

    Paul SF February 21, 2007, 11:25 pm
  • The Globe’s Sox coverage is much better and more extensive than the Time’s Yankee coverage. The Sox get more coverage in the Globe than the Mets and Yanks combined get in the Times.
    The Post is a rag. Their sports coverage used to be better than it is now, when it seems their primary interest is in saying provocative or controversial things.
    Reading the Chicago Tribune the last few weeks, I can say they also have better and more extensive baseball coverage than the Times. What a drag.
    There is no Yankee site like SoSH. There are no Yankee blogs as good as BostonDirtDogs and Soxaholix.
    Fenway is better than the brain-dead version of the Stadium we were given after the redo in 1973.
    But we have Mo, Cano and the guys and 26 rings. We’re happy.

    john February 22, 2007, 10:33 am
  • “There are no Yankee blogs as good as BostonDirtDogs and Soxaholix.”
    Hey john! What about us?!

    Nick-YF February 22, 2007, 10:35 am
  • And in my opinion, Bronx Banter, Waswatching and the Pinstriped Blog/Bible are better than those two.

    Nick-YF February 22, 2007, 10:36 am
  • Nick-YF — this isn’t a Yankee blog. Obviously it’s a Yankee – Red Sox blog.
    I don’t want to comment on any particular Yankee blog. I think BDD and Soxaholix are better.

    john February 22, 2007, 10:51 am
  • There are no Yankee blogs similar to Soxaholix and BDD, but I think both are significantly overrated — and I like Soxaholix.

    Paul SF February 22, 2007, 11:13 am
  • BTW, Soxaholix makes the point today that if Manny stopped being Manny the press would have more time to find other problems in Red Sox camp.

    john February 22, 2007, 11:25 am

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