General Red Sox General Yankees


With the season 40 percent done, here are where our teams rank in relation to each other and the league in some traditional and newer metrics. Feel free to comment on the interesting, surprising or frustrating:


  1. Adrian Gonzalez, .341
  2. David Ortiz, .325
  3. Jacoby Ellsbury, .318
  4. Robinson Cano, .285
  5. Alex Rodriguez, .284
  6. Marco Scutaro, .283
  7. Curtis Granderson, .278
  8. Jed Lowrie, .276
  9. Brett Gardner, .272
  10. Kevin Youkilis, .264
  11. Dustin Pedroia, .262
  12. Derek Jeter, .260
  13. League average — .254
  14. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, .252
  15. Mark Teixeira, .250
  16. Carl Crawford, .246
  17. Jason Varitek, .234
  18. Russell Martin, .232
  19. J.D. Drew, .227
  20. Jorge Posada, .226
  21. Nick Swisher, .221
  22. Andruw Jones, .215
  23. Eduardo Nunez, .214
  24. Francisco Cervelli, .191
  25. Mike Cameron, .156


  1. Adrian Gonzalez, 91
  2. Jacoby Ellsbury, 84
  3. David Ortiz, 77
  4. Robinson Cano, 70
  5. Curtis Granderson, 69
  6. Derek Jeter, 68
  7. Alex Rodriguez, 65
  8. Dustin Pedroia, 64
  9. Carl Crawford, 62
  10. 150-hit pace — 60
  11. Mark Teixeira, 58
  12. Kevin Youkilis, 56
  13. Jed Lowrie, 53
  14. Brett Gardner, 50
  15. Nick Swisher, 45
  16. Russell Martin, 39
  17. Jorge Posada, 38
  18. J.D. Drew, 37
  19. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, 34
  20. Marco Scutaro, 26
  21. Jason Varitek, 22
  22. Andruw Jones, 14
  23. Mike Cameron, 12
  24. Eduardo Nunez, 12
  25. Francisco Cervelli, 9


  1. Adrian Gonzalez, 22
  2. Jacoby Ellsbury, 21
  3. David Ortiz, 18
  4. Kevin Youkilis, 18
  5. Robinson Cano, 13
  6. Alex Rodriguez, 13
  7. Carl Crawford, 11
  8. Curtis Granderson, 11
  9. Jed Lowrie, 11
  10. Dustin Pedroia, 11
  11. Brett Gardner, 10
  12. Nick Swisher, 10
  13. Derek Jeter, 9
  14. Mark Teixeira, 9
  15. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, 8
  16. 20-double pace — 8
  17. Jorge Posada, 7
  18. Russell Martin, 6
  19. Marco Scutaro, 5
  20. J.D. Drew, 4
  21. Jason Varitek, 4
  22. Mike Cameron, 2
  23. Francisco Cervelli, 2
  24. Andruw Jones, 2
  25. Eduardo Nunez, 2


  1. Curtis Granderson, 5
  2. Carl Crawford, 4
  3. Brett Gardner, 4
  4. Jed Lowrie, 3
  5. Robinson Cano, 2
  6. Adrian Gonzalez, 2
  7. J.D. Drew, 1
  8. Derek Jeter, 1
  9. Eduardo Nunez, 1
  10. David Ortiz, 1
  11. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, 1
  12. Kevin Youkilis, 1


  1. Curtis Granderson, 20
  2. Mark Teixeira, 19
  3. David Ortiz, 17
  4. Adrian Gonzalez, 13
  5. Alex Rodriguez, 13
  6. Robinson Cano, 12
  7. Russell Martin, 9
  8. Kevin Youkilis, 9
  9. Jacoby Ellsbury, 7
  10. Carl Crawford, 6
  11. Jorge Posada, 6
  12. 15-homer pace — 6
  13. Dustin Pedroia, 5
  14. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, 5
  15. Nick Swisher, 5
  16. J.D. Drew, 4
  17. Andruw Jones, 4
  18. Mike Cameron, 3
  19. Brett Gardner, 3
  20. Jed Lowrie, 3
  21. Jason Varitek, 3
  22. Derek Jeter, 2
  23. Francisco Cervelli, 1
  24. Eduardo Nunez, 1
  25. Marco Scutaro, 1


  1. Adrian Gonzalez, 37
  2. Curtis Granderson, 36
  3. David Ortiz, 36
  4. Jacoby Ellsbury, 28
  5. Mark Teixeira, 28
  6. Kevin Youkilis, 28
  7. Robinson Cano, 27
  8. Alex Rodriguez, 26
  9. Carl Crawford, 21
  10. Brett Gardner, 17
  11. Jed Lowrie, 17
  12. Dustin Pedroia, 16
  13. Russell Martin, 15
  14. Nick Swisher, 15
  15. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, 14
  16. Jorge Posada, 13
  17. Derek Jeter, 12
  18. J.D. Drew, 9
  19. Jason Varitek, 7
  20. Andruw Jones, 6
  21. Marco Scutaro, 6
  22. Mike Cameron, 5
  23. Eduardo Nunez, 4
  24. Francisco Cervelli, 3


  1. Adrian Gonzalez, 156
  2. Curtis Granderson, 150
  3. David Ortiz, 148
  4. Jacoby Ellsbury, 126
  5. Mark Teixeira, 124
  6. Robinson Cano, 123
  7. Alex Rodriguez, 117
  8. Kevin Youkilis, 103
  9. Carl Crawford, 99
  10. Dustin Pedroia, 90
  11. Jorge Posada, 89
  12. Nick Swisher, 88
  13. Derek Jeter, 85
  14. Jed Lowrie, 79
  15. Brett Gardner, 77
  16. Russell Martin, 72
  17. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, 59
  18. J.D. Drew, 55
  19. Jason Varitek, 35
  20. Marco Scutaro, 34
  21. Andruw Jones, 28
  22. Mike Cameron, 23
  23. Eduardo Nunez, 19
  24. Francisco Cervelli, 14


  1. David Ortiz, .624
  2. Curtis Granderson, .605
  3. Adrian Gonzalez, .584
  4. Mark Teixeira, .534
  5. Alex Rodriguez, .511
  6. Robinson Cano, .500
  7. Kevin Youkilis, .486
  8. Jacoby Ellsbury, .477
  9. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, .437
  10. Andruw Jones, .431
  11. Russell Martin, .429
  12. Brett Gardner, .418
  13. Jed Lowrie, .411
  14. League average — .397
  15. Carl Crawford, .393
  16. Jorge Posada, .375
  17. Jason Varitek, .372
  18. Marco Scutaro, .370
  19. Dustin Pedroia, .369
  20. Nick Swisher, .343
  21. Eduardo Nunez, .339
  22. J.D. Drew, .337
  23. Derek Jeter, .324
  24. Mike Cameron, .299
  25. Francisco Cervelli, .298


  1. Curtis Granderson, .327
  2. David Ortiz, .300
  3. Mark Teixeira, .284
  4. Adrian Gonzalez, .243
  5. Alex Rodriguez, .227
  6. Kevin Youkilis, .222
  7. Robinson Cano, .215
  8. Andruw Jones, .215
  9. Russell Martin, .196
  10. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, .185
  11. Jacoby Ellsbury, .159
  12. Jorge Posada, .149
  13. Carl Crawford, .147
  14. Brett Gardner, .147
  15. Mike Cameron, .143
  16. Jed Lowrie, .142
  17. League average — .142
  18. Jason Varitek, .138
  19. Eduardo Nunez, .125
  20. Nick Swisher, .123
  21. J.D. Drew, .110
  22. Dustin Pedroia, .107
  23. Francisco Cervelli, .106
  24. Marco Scutaro, .087
  25. Derek Jeter, .065


  1. Dustin Pedroia, 45
  2. Nick Swisher, 39
  3. Kevin Youkilis, 39
  4. Mark Teixeira, 38
  5. Curtis Granderson, 27
  6. David Ortiz, 27
  7. Alex Rodriguez, 25
  8. J.D. Drew, 24
  9. Derek Jeter, 23
  10. Russell Martin, 23
  11. Jorge Posada, 23
  12. Brett Gardner, 22
  13. Adrian Gonzalez, 22
  14. Jacoby Ellsbury, 20
  15. 50-BB pace — 20
  16. Jed Lowrie, 14
  17. Jason Varitek, 12
  18. Robinson Cano, 11
  19. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, 10
  20. Carl Crawford, 9
  21. Marco Scutaro, 9
  22. Mike Cameron, 7
  23. Andruw Jones, 6
  24. Francisco Cervelli, 3
  25. Eduardo Nunez, 3


  1. David Ortiz, .395
  2. Adrian Gonzalez, .392
  3. Kevin Youkilis, .391
  4. Dustin Pedroia, .378
  5. Jacoby Ellsbury, .376
  6. Mark Teixeira, .368
  7. Alex Rodriguez, .362
  8. Brett Gardner, .351
  9. Curtis Granderson, .351
  10. Marco Scutaro, .347
  11. Nick Swisher, .344
  12. Russell Martin, .338
  13. J.D. Drew, .330
  14. Robinson Cano, .327
  15. Jason Varitek, .327
  16. Jed Lowrie, .325
  17. Derek Jeter, .324
  18. League average — .322
  19. Jorge Posada, .321
  20. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, .313
  21. Andruw Jones, .282
  22. Carl Crawford, .279
  23. Eduardo Nunez, .254
  24. Francisco Cervelli, .250
  25. Mike Cameron, .221


  1. Kevin Youkilis, .127
  2. Nick Swisher, .123
  3. Mark Teixeira, .118
  4. Dustin Pedroia, .116
  5. Russell Martin, .106
  6. J.D. Drew, .103
  7. Jorge Posada, .095
  8. Jason Varitek, .093
  9. Brett Gardner, .079
  10. Alex Rodriguez, .078
  11. Curtis Granderson, .073
  12. David Ortiz, .070
  13. League average — .068
  14. Andruw Jones, .067
  15. Mike Cameron, .065
  16. Derek Jeter, .064
  17. Marco Scutaro, .064
  18. Jarrod Saltalamachhia, .061
  19. Francsico Cervelli, .059
  20. Jacoby Ellsbury. .058
  21. Adrian Gonzalez, .051
  22. Jed Lowrie, .049
  23. Robinson Cano, .042
  24. Eduardo Nunez, .040
  25. Carl Crawford, .033


  1. David Ortiz, 1.019
  2. Adrian Gonzalez, .977
  3. Curtis Granderson, .956
  4. Mark Teixeira, .902
  5. Kevin Youkilis, .877
  6. Alex Rodriguez, .872
  7. Jacoby Ellsbury, .853
  8. Robinson Cano, .827
  9. Brett Gardner, .769
  10. Russell Martin, .767
  11. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, .750
  12. Dustin Pedroia, .747
  13. Jed Lowrie, .737
  14. League average — .718
  15. Marco Scutaro, .716
  16. Andruw Jones, .712
  17. Jason Varitek, .699
  18. Jorge Posada, .696
  19. Nick Swisher, .687
  20. Carl Crawford, .672
  21. J.D. Drew, .667
  22. Derek Jeter, .649
  23. Eduardo Nunez, .594
  24. Francisco Cervelli, .548
  25. Mike Cameron, .520


  1. David Ortiz, 175
  2. Adrian Gonzalez, 165
  3. Curtis Granderson, 154
  4. Mark Teixeira, 142
  5. Kevin Youkilis, 140
  6. Alex Rodriguez, 134
  7. Jacoby Ellsbury, 133
  8. Robinson Cano, 121
  9. Brett Gardner, 109
  10. Russell Martin, 107
  11. Dustin Pedroia, 107
  12. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, 104
  13. Jed Lowrie, 101
  14. Marco Scutaro, 98
  15. Jason Varitek, 92
  16. Andruw Jones, 91
  17. Jorge Posada, 89
  18. Nick Swisher, 88
  19. J.D. Drew, 84
  20. Carl Crawford, 83
  21. Derek Jeter, 77
  22. Eduardo Nunez, 60
  23. Francisco Cervelli, 48
  24. Mike Cameron, 42


  1. Adrian Gonzalez, 60
  2. Curtis Granderson, 47
  3. Mark Teixeira, 47
  4. David Ortiz, 43
  5. Kevin Youkilis, 42
  6. Robinson Cano, 41
  7. Alex Rodriguez, 40
  8. Jacoby Ellsbury, 33
  9. Carl Crawford, 31
  10. 75-RBI pace — 30
  11. Dustin Pedroia, 28
  12. Russell Martin, 27
  13. Nick Swisher, 27
  14. Jed Lowrie, 25
  15. Derek Jeter, 20
  16. Jorge Posada, 20
  17. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, 19
  18. J.D. Drew, 16
  19. Brett Gardner, 15
  20. Jason Varitek, 13
  21. Francisco Cervelli, 10
  22. Andruw Jones, 10
  23. Marco Scutaro, 10
  24. Mike Cameron, 8
  25. Eduardo Nunez, 7


  1. Jacoby Ellsbury, 24/32
  2. Dustin Pedroia, 13/15
  3. Brett Gardner, 13/24
  4. Curtis Granderson, 10/14
  5. Carl Crawford, 8/12
  6. 20-SB pace — 8
  7. Derek Jeter, 7/9
  8. Russell Martin, 6/6
  9. Eduardo Nunez, 6/7
  10. Robinson Cano, 5/6
  11. Alex Rodriguez, 3/4
  12. Francisco Cervelli, 2/2
  13. Mark Teixeira, 2/3
  14. Adrian Gonzalez, 1/1
  15. Josh Reddick, 1/1
  16. Marco Scutaro, 1/1
  17. Kevin Youkilis, 1/1
  18. Darnell McDonald, 1/2
  19. Nick Swisher, 1/3
  20. J.D. Drew, 0/1
  21. Jed Lowrie, 0/1
  22. Jorge Posada, 0/2

wOBA (BB, HBP, ROE, 1B, 2B, 3B, HR weighted by run value of each event and scaled to OBP) 

  1. David Ortiz, .437
  2. Adrian Gonzalez, .419
  3. Curtis Granderson, .412
  4. Mark Teixeira, .391
  5. Kevin Youkilis, .387
  6. Jacoby Ellsbury, .385
  7. Alex Rodriguez, .383
  8. Robinson Cano, .360
  9. Russell Martin, .352
  10. Dustin Pedroia, .346
  11. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, .329
  12. Marco Scutaro, .326
  13. 2010 league average — .321
  14. Jed Lowrie, .318
  15. Jason Varitek, .317
  16. Andruw Jones, .315
  17. Nick Swisher, .311
  18. Jorge Posada, .308
  19. Derek Jeter, .298
  20. Carl Crawford, .296
  21. J.D. Drew, .295
  22. Eduardo Nunez, .281
  23. Francisco Cervelli, .257
  24. Mike Cameron, .233

wRC+ (wOBA plus SB/CS, adjusted for league and park, with 100 as average)

  1. David Ortiz, 178
  2. Adrian Gonzalez, 165
  3. Curtis Granderson, 162
  4. Mark Teixeira, 147
  5. Kevin Youkilis, 143
  6. Alex Rodriguez, 142
  7. Jacoby Ellsbury, 141
  8. Robinson Cano, 126
  9. Russell Martin, 120
  10. Dustin Pedroia, 114
  11. Brett Gardner, 110
  12. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, 103
  13. Marco Scutaro, 101
  14. Jed Lowrie, 96
  15. Andruw Jones, 95
  16. Jason Varitek, 95
  17. Nick Swisher, 92
  18. Jorge Posada, 90
  19. Derek Jeter, 83
  20. Carl Crawford, 80
  21. J.D. Drew, 79
  22. Eduardo Nunez, 71
  23. Francisco Cervelli, 55
  24. Mike Cameron, 37

UZR (in wins)

  1. Brett Gardner, 0.9
  2. Dustin Pedroia, 0.7
  3. Adrian Gonzalez, 0.7
  4. Alex Rodriguez, 0.6
  5. J.D. Drew, 0.3
  6. Nick Swisher, 0.2
  7. Marco Scutaro, 0.1
  8. Carl Crawford, 0.0
  9. Andruw Jones, 0.0
  10. Jacoby Ellsbury, -0.0
  11. Curtis Granderson, -0.0
  12. Jorge Posada, -0.0
  13. Mark Teixeira, -0.0
  14. Robinson Cano, -0.1
  15. Derek Jeter, -0.1
  16. Russell Martin, -0.1
  17. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, -0.1
  18. Jason Varitek, -0.1
  19. Francisco Cervelli, -0.2
  20. Kevin Youkilis, -0.3
  21. Mike Cameron, -0.3
  22. Jed Lowrie, -0.4
  23. Eduardo Nunez, -0.4


  1. Adrian Gonzalez, 3.3
  2. Curtis Granderson, 3.3
  3. Alex Rodriguez, 3.0
  4. Jacoby Ellsbury, 2.7
  5. Dustin Pedroia, 2.7
  6. David Ortiz, 2.5
  7. Mark Teixeira, 2.2
  8. Kevin Youkilis, 2.2
  9. 5-WAR pace — 2.0
  10. Robinson Cano, 1.9
  11. Brett Gardner, 1.9
  12. Russell Martin, 1.6
  13. 3-WAR pace — 1.2
  14. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, 0.7
  15. Marco Scutaro, 0.6
  16. Nick Swisher, 0.6
  17. Derek Jeter, 0.5
  18. Jed Lowrie, 0.5
  19. Jason Varitek, 0.4
  20. Carl Crawford, 0.1
  21. J.D. Drew, 0.1
  22. Andruw Jones, 0.0
  23. Francisco Cervelli, -0.2
  24. Eduardo Nunez, -0.3
  25. Jorge Posada, -0.4
  26. Mike Cameron, -0.7

rWAR defensive component

  1. Brett Gardner, 1.4
  2. Adrian Gonzalez, 1.0
  3. Nick Swisher, 0.9
  4. Dustin Pedroia, 0.7
  5. Jacoby Ellsbury, 0.4
  6. Alex Rodriguez, 0.4
  7. Kevin Youkilis, 0.4
  8. J.D. Drew, 0.2
  9. Robinson Cano, 0.0
  10. Russell Martin, -0.1
  11. Jorge Posada, -0.1
  12. Andruw Jones, -0.2
  13. Eduardo Nunez, -0.2
  14. Marco Scutaro, -0.2
  15. Jason Varitek, -0.2
  16. Francisco Cervelli, -0.3
  17. Carl Crawford, -0.3
  18. Curtis Granderson, -0.3
  19. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, -0.3
  20. Mark Teixeira, -0.3
  21. Mike Cameron, -0.4
  22. Derek Jeter, -0.4
  23. Jed Lowrie, -0.7

rWAR (oWAR + dWAR)

  1. Adrian Gonzalez, 3.6
  2. Jacoby Ellsbury, 3.0
  3. Kevin Youkilis, 2.9
  4. Dustin Pedroia, 2.5
  5. David Ortiz, 2.4
  6. Curtis Granderson, 2.3
  7. Alex Rodriguez, 2.2
  8. Brett Gardner, 2.1
  9. 5-WAR pace — 2.0
  10. Robinson Cano, 1.7
  11. Mark Teixeira, 1.5
  12. Nick Swisher, 1.2
  13. 3-WAR pace — 1.2
  14. Russell Martin, 0.8
  15. Jed Lowrie, 0.4
  16. Jarrod Saltalamacchia, 0.3
  17. J.D. Drew, 0.2
  18. Marco Scutaro, 0.2
  19. Jason Varitek, 0.2
  20. Carl Crawford, -0.1
  21. Derek Jeter, -0.1
  22. Francisco Cervelli, -0.2
  23. Eduardo Nunez, -0.2
  24. Andruw Jones, -0.3
  25. Jorge Posada, -0.4
  26. Mike Cameron, -0.8

53 replies on “Ranking”

Four things jumped out at me while I was compiling this:
1. The Red Sox have cost themselves a win already just by using Mike Cameron as little as they have. He’s been that bad. At least the Yankees have reciprocated with Nunez, Posada and Cervelli.
2. Robinson Cano is obviously having the better year at the plate, but Pedroia is rated the more valuable of the two by quite a bit, thanks to superior baserunning and defense. Cue the debate. Of course, Pedroia’s recent surge on offense has helped close the gap on that front, too, and you just don’t get quite as much publicity when you lead the two teams in walks either.
3. Russell Martin and Jarrod Saltalamacchia are having similar years at the plate. Martin’s been much more valuable because he’s played a lot more, and his on-base skills give him a strong advantage in wOBA and wRC+. Hard to imagine they have essentially the same OPS+, though.
4. Nick Swisher is having a dreadful year at the plate, right in the mix with the dreaded Crawford-Jeter-Drew-Posada black hole of death, but he sure knows how to take a walk, tied for second with Kevin Youkilis among the 24 starters/top reserves in the rivalry.

OPS+ is a meaningless stat outside of appearnaces. It’s like using ERA+ to compare a starter and a reliever. Martin has been twice as valuable as Salty, and 60% more valuable as Salty+Varitek. Just like Lowrie+Scutaro has been twice as valuable as Jeter.
Is Crawford the worst full-time player on both teams? Sure looks like it.
A-Rod has amazingly been better than Youkilis, and at defense too.

Youkilis has had an odd season; it doesn’t feel like he’s really found his groove yet. Defensive metrics seem to be split on him. Total Zone has him and A-Rod even with good marks. I’m skeptical of that. Youk is adequate at third, but I’m not sure he’s any better than average.
Given how they started, Martin 120, Salty 103 in wRC+ is still impressive from Salty’s perspective. Martin obviously has slumped the last month or so. Baseball-Reference says Red Sox catchers are basically even with Yankee catchers in value, whereas Fangraphs has Martin/Cervelli slightly ahead. That’s quite a turnaround.
Taking the Crawford bait, it’s clear he would still fight Jeter for that title, and they’re both a fair sight better than Posada, at this point.

“Taking the Crawford bait, it’s clear he would still fight Jeter for that title, and they’re both a fair sight better than Posada, at this point.”
10 rings > 0 rings.
Not much analysis needed for that stat.

You just can’t ding Martin as simply having more work when a function of having that more work has been playing hurt.
Is Youkilis really that bad? I haven’t watched him, and he’s never been full-time over there, but is he below average?
As for Crawford we could always compare him to Gardner – on offense and on defense! That feels like a comparison that’s going to look awfully good for the next few years. Gardner’s defense and OBP make him the clear winner. It’s sort of like Pedroia versus Cano.
Jeter edges ahead of Crawford with fWAR.
Posada isn’t full-time.

James, are you assuming that Papi is bringing up the contract without people asking him? It seems pretty obvious that people are trying to bait a juicy quote out of him, and he’s deflecting them by saying that he doesn’t want to discuss it because he doesn’t want to be a distraction.
Of course he probably wants a multi-year deal, but how is he “talking out of both sides of his mouth”?

Regarding Youk: he’s made a lot of poor throws to first, which has been negated by AGonz’ glove. But it hasn’t been terribly pretty.
Aside from that I can’t say much about how his defense has looked.

10 rings > 0 rings.
Not much analysis needed for that stat.

I couldn’t agree more. Feeling the need to use that “stat” provides its own analysis.

Dude, this is silly. We’re specifically talking about this year’s performance, so bringing out the rings argument is completely irrelevant. Is it really impossible to talk about Jeter’s poor season without YFs thinking we’re attacking his entire career?

“Is it really impossible to talk about Jeter’s poor season without YFs thinking we’re attacking his entire career?”
I won’t speak for K, but in my case it’s not about his entire career. That would be a foolish argument on anyone’s part. Fancy stats or not, the guy is a HOF’r and one of the best players of our generation, hype or no-hype. As for this season you have to remember that it’s constant. Turn on ESPN: Jeter is done. Look as yesterday’s NY papers: Yankees are better without Jeter. Turn on the radio: Trade Monetero, Banuelos, Betances and everyone we have for Reyes. Jeter hasn’t been great, but he isn’t the reason the Yankees are losing. There are far bigger fish to fry and yet everyday is Jeter, Jeter, Jeter…Try and see it from our view point.

“…Is it really impossible to talk about Jeter’s poor season without YFs thinking we’re attacking his entire career?…”
ath, i think the problem for many yf’s is that we have had to defend this guy for his entire career, so it isn’t just about this year…while sf’s have slowly and grudgingly conceded that jeter has had a first ballot hall of fame career [a thought that just must be killing them], he just never quite measured up for them…and i say it’s solely because of his uniform and jealousy over the championship run he was a big part of making happen…i think that’s the source of krueg’s frustration…i know yfsf hasn’t been around that long, but i remember even at the beginning of his career, sox fans that i knew insisted that this skinny little punk was never going to make it…then there were the inevitable “well he’ll never be nomar” comparisons…in retrospect i say “good”, because the only way nomar is getting into the hall of fame is with a ticket, or an invite from jeter…even this site had a big discussion or 2 not all that long ago about how nomar was better, once or twice anyway, so there!…oy…we also got the power comparisons between arod, nomar, and jeter…that was back when rbi and hr’s were important to sf’s, because they proved that nomar and arod were better players, completely and conveniently ignoring the other things jeter did to help win games…when the yankees acquired arod, we got the snarky comments about how the yankees were so foolishly loyal to jeter, they put their best shortstop at third base…then we got the justifiably maligned defensive statistics trotted out to prove that what we all thought we were seeing with our own eyes was just a fantasy…players simply can’t make jump throws, or dive into the stands to make a catch, or make an out of position flip throw to save a playoff game…no, a few nerds in a lab somewhere decide whether batted balls “should” have been fielded or not…game saving plays and not making errors simply became less important than his zone rating…i won’t touch the gold glove thing, where so-called experts of the game are overruled by the stat-nerds…we even debated his cologne, which probably never sold bottle 1, and his choice of girlfriends, or his lack of choosing…at least he could play the field when it came to dating…ok, we get it, many sf’s have waited not so patiently for 17 seasons for the day jeter’s skills became so eroded with age and wear that he would become ordinary, and stop being a thorn in their side…’09 must have been a terrible year for them…’10 was much better, and collectively red sox nation began to salivate over the thought that this might be the beginning of the end…now in ’11 we get more over-exposure of his demise and the realization that ’10 was not an aberration…i would even go so far as to say some sf’s probably hope he comes up short of 3000 hits, which isn’t that big of a deal anyway because it’s just a numbers/counting thing and not a real stat…you asked if it’s impossible to talk about jeter’s poor season without us getting defensive…it shouldn’t be, but almost a day doesn’t go by without a snarky reminder that the guy is at the tail end of his career…for the millionth time, we get it…are {some of] you guys really that obsessed with him that you can’t let it go for a bit?…it’s ok, i don’t expect sf’s to root for jeter…i don’t root for sox players either…

John –
Jeter’s .324 OBP with the most plate appearances on the team is certainly not helping and likely hurting if we simply compare him to Gardner. Over 300 PAs, the difference is Gardner reaching base 12 more times. Even if he only scores two or three more runs, that’s one win.
Overall, Jeter is hurting more than he’s helping. It’s very fair to ask whether he is done.

If there’s one good thing about Jeter’s contract/presence, it pretty much assures that the Yankees won’t spend $200+M on Reyes. Decent player having a career year, always over-hyped to be better than he really is based on ‘promise’.
I’m personally hoping they can buy ‘low’ on Hanley once he starts earning double-digit millions. Maybe that’s what they’re saving Montero for.

A. I didn’t say he was or wasn’t “done”.
B. I said “We have bigger fish to fry”.
C. My comment was not in defense of the 2011 version of Jeter or any version for that matter, but rather to tell Ath where we as Yankee fans are coming from.

I find much of what dc wrote re: the history of Jeter-attacks spot-on frankly and well-said, which is not to paint all SFs at this site as having partaken in the anti-jeter obsession, but I appreciate him laying it out so clearly.
So if we want to focus on Jeter THIS year, why don’t we compare apples to apples? Not Jeter to Gardner, but Jeter to other SSs.
If Jeter finishes the season with his current rate stats it will be the worst season of his career (discounting his partial ’95 break-in season).
Of the 30 major league SS’s who have played at least 30 games, this is where Jeter ranks on a number of offensive stats:
OBP: .324 (15th)
BA: .260 (18th)
Hits: 68 (10th)
SB: 7 (11th)
RBI: 20 (T-17th)
BB: 23 (8th)
SO: 31 (T-11th — only Jose Reyes and Jimmy Rollins have lower K’s per PA than Jeter)
Age: 37 (T-oldest with Renteria & Carroll)
So only Jeter’s BA is worse than middle of the pack right now. And again, if he stays on track with these stats, it will be – by far – his worst season.
Like every other fan and detractor I can see that Jeter is not the player he was in his prime. Then again, his prime was so superlative compared to others at his position, and he held his performance for so many years, that alot of people have simply been spoiled.
Would I like to have one of the best SSs in the league rather than one who is simply “above average” in 2011? Sure. But even those who want to focus on 2011 need to stop acting as if he is an anchor around this team’s neck.
As for defense, the metrics stink for single-season analysis, but of course the guy doesn’t have much range, though he is as sure-handed as anyone.

“So only Jeter’s BA…” and RBIs.
And for the record, I would rather Gardner leadoff than Jeter – which I understand to be your main point James. But wanting to see Jeter bat 6th or 7th in the order is different from wanting him somehow pushed off the stage entirely.

I’m realistic. They’re not going to DFA him. The best we can hope for is 2nd. 9th is correct but out of the question this year.
The one problem you leave out is his defense. It’s what makes him a net negative according to bWAR. fWAR has him at half a win. But your points are well-taken and it’s what I was arguing here a few weeks back when the photos of toast and porridge were posted. As a SS, Jeter still has value. The question for me is whether Nunez and yes, Reyes (being a free agent), have more value. I think they do.
Any one else notice that Lowrie’s defense is awful at SS?

Is 9th really correct when either Cervelli or Posada are in the line-up virtually every night? I don’t think so personally. Perhaps 8th. Lowrie’s def numbers did surprise me but I sort of ignored the defensive stats because I don’t really understand how relevant they are when analyzing a single season, let alone a partial season…

Posada still has pop. He should be higher when he plays.
As for Cervelli, he sucks. He shouldn’t be playing. Not with Montero in the system.
By the way, Ryan Lavarnway is in AAA for the Sox after crushing AA (.284/.360/.510). And his defense has been solid too. He may be the best catcher in the Sox system right now, majors included.

Lowrie’s been much worse at SS than I expected; I figured he’d be league average, based on the small samples from his previous seasons. Might still be a SSS thing, or he might just not be that good. Which is why I thought the Sox had the perfect opportunity in Ortiz’s free agency this offseason to move Youkilis to DH and Lowrie to 3B with Iglesias being called up.
Obviously, Ortiz’s incredible season thus far complicates that, though it’s a nice complication to have.
I disagree that DC’s “history” of the Jeter debate is well said, or even accurate.
1. I don’t believe SFs here were “slow” to acknowledge Jeter is a first-ballot Hall of Famer. In fact, that’s often a caveat we make while we criticize the often-fawning coverage he received for intangibles or defense or something else that was simply not accurate.
2. Jeter was the third-best of the ARod-Nomar-Jeter shortstop trio in the late 1990s/early 2000s. Nomar washed out, ARod shifted positions, and that makes Jeter the best of the three for his career. But moving ARod, the better hitter and defender, to third was a mistake for the Yankees that cost them wins. That being said, it’s no shame to be third-best of three HOF talents, and it baffles me why it continues to be such a problem for many YFs to acknowledge this.
3. The idea that Jeter plays good defense has been hashed and rehashed. We’re not going to come to an agreement, but let me say that making great-looking plays on occasion does not actually mean someone is a good defender. Great hands and arm, which Jeter has/had, help make up for poor range, but range is the most important factor in shortstop defense, and it’s also the hardest to see with the naked (or televised) eye.
4. What is the overexposure of Jeter’s failures this season on this site? The current discussion was started by a jab at Carl Crawford, with the ultimate conclusion that in fact Jorge Posada has been the worst regular of the rivalry thus far in 2011. Just a few days ago, I posted a completely non-critical piece about Jeter and Tim Wakefield’s shared history that DC himself complimented. There was the toast/porridge post. Way back in April, Nick (a YF, by the way) did a long post about the declines of Jeter and Posada. That’s all I can find with a brief search, and really all I can remember either.
SFs don’t like Jeter. I don’t like him. I don’t like how he’s given tons of credit for “intangibles” and leadership, especially when the only evidence of them was to refuse to move for the good of the team when A-Rod came in and then left A-Rod out to dry for the New York media to the extent that Brian Cashman of all people had to tell him to get over it and protect the team’s star player. I don’t like how he stands in the batter’s box with his hand in the umpire’s face. I don’t like how he’s considered an excellent defensive shortstop when the wide consensus among sabermetric fans, including Yankee sabermetric fans, is that he has never been better than average on defense. And I don’t like the double standard that exists when he (and pretty much any other guy) sleeps with tons of women and its perceived as a mark of pride, while if a woman did the same thing, she would be trashed in the tabloids as a slut.
And I suspect all (or at least most) of that was born from the fact that I didn’t like how he was a Yankee and winning all those rings and getting all this credit despite the fact that he wasn’t as good as Nomar. Hey, I was 13 when Jeter debuted and 14 when Nomar did. It’s not exactly rational.
Some of it is the distaste I have for the “intangibles” argument with any player, and some of it is the disgusting double standard that exists in society concerning the sexual escapades of men and women.
So I’ll say this again: Jeter is a first-ballot Hall of Famer. He’s an amazing hitter regardless of position, and he plays at a position where hitting of any kind is valuable, and his defense has been adequate enough to allow him to provide that immense offensive value. He’s likely a good leader in a clubhouse where leadership under that kind of media pressure is very important, and that provides value, too. He helped lead the Yankees to a series of championships, which enhances his value and his status as a Hall of Famer. He’s made some iconic defensive plays that burnish his status and make for great storytelling, which has historical value in a game that loves its history (though their on-field value depends greatly on the context of the play).
But he’s not perfect. He’s not the best shortstop ever. He’s not a great defender (and simply mocking those who say so does not constitute a refutation, just as mocking scientists who advocate global warming does not make it any less a reality). He’s made some fairly obvious mistakes on the leadership front, especially when it comes to the Rodriguez situation. He’s given a deference by the team that is understandable but costly, particularly in leaving him at short in 2004, leaving him in the leadoff spot in recent years, and re-signing him for so much money this winter.
That’s the most balanced take I can muster on a player I don’t particularly like, but whose on-field play and off-field demeanor (absent his personal relationships) I generally respect.

Paul, your dislike of Jeter comes entirely from the fact that he’s a Yankee. Let’s be honest. You’re a good Red Sox fan. I mean that in the nicest way possible, but the above monologue would be a love sonnet to Jeter if he had the same career as a Sock.

The problem with Iglesias is his wet noodle of a bat. I’m not sure if it will ever come around. His plate discipline is horrid. You also kill Youk’s value at DH. He’s an average fielder at 3B and above average at 1B. Better to trade him than DH him.
As for Jeter, I think you assume those iconic plays are luck or whatnot. I’d bet most would connect them with his “intangibles”. Nomar and A-Rod never made any plays like Jeter’s best. As for Nomar, he was better, but for a very short window (1998-2000). Even then, Jeter was his equal in 1999 and that string was buried amidst a string of three straight championships. It’s a stretch to say Jeter was third-best. Staying healthy is a big part of the game and two seasons do not make a career. Of course, Nomar was also pouting on the bench when Jeter made one of his iconic plays.
As for A-Rod and Jeter, I agree and more should have been made of the switch (and lack thereof) at the time.
As for the best of all-time, Jeter will go down as the best of a 20 year stretch. He’s top 5, easily.
As for the sexual nonsense, in this day and age, we’ve never heard one woman complain about Jeter. Not one. That itself deserves an award.

This is a great discusion and I appreciate the comprehensive and relatively dispassionate and self-reflective summary of your Jeter-hatred Paul.
A couple points:
1. “it’s no shame to be third-best of three HOF talents” – is Nomar a HOF’er in your view Paul? That is honestly not a dig. It’s a genuine question.
2. The comment about Jeter sleeping with tons of women is at least as out of bounds as the double standard you point to if indeed he were sleeping with tons of women. Do you know how many women he has slept with? Really??? He has dated several celebrity women so he has slept with all of them? It is more respectful to those women, and women in general, not to mention to Jeter, to assume they all had sx with him? I’m sorry bit I find that line of argument really bizarre. And I am someone who agrees completely re: the problem of double standards in society when it comes to gender and diversity. But you’re acting as if Jeter is Wilt Chamberlain, making bold claims about having slept with 1,000+ women. Jeter has been as discrete in his personal life as he has been in the clubhouse.
3. Jeter’s hand in the umpire’s face. It’s not really in his face and umpire’s don’t seem to have any problem with Jeter – on the contrary in fact.
I – respectfully – feel like interpreting Jeter’s AB-ritual as in any way disrespectful of umpires or the game – just as the take on Jeter and women – is much more reflective of your anti-jeter bias than anything real.

Was that really you Paul?
“sexual escapades” Did I miss something? He’s unmarried. He dates regularly and he dates famous women (mostly) in NYC, the media capital of the world. Did I miss a sex tape or something? Was he caught with two women at once? I think “sexual escapades” is a off base and way to strong. Tiger Woods has “sexual escapades” not Jeter.
His hand in the umpire’s face is a gesture that most guys with a “checklist” pre-swing approach do. It’s not disrespectful, it’s him asking for a second to get set, if his hands not up, he doesn’t get the time he needs to set up his hitting approach.
I am not going to try and sell you on him, that ship has obviously sailed, but he’s an athlete (at a time there aren’t many) that if your child insisted on looking up to, you’d be OK with as a parent. I don’t think athletes should be role models, but Jeter comes as close to acceptable as anyone in his generation. In NY, on predominantly winning teams, with 5 WS rings…I think you are failing to give him the credit he deserves.

I gotta say I think the YFs are coming off well to me here, Paul. I pretty much agree with them, but I don’t have a burning stake in Nomar (my fandom came too late for that) and all that.

Someone here should prove that Jeter didn’t sleep with Margaret Thatcher. Seriously, prove that he didn’t.
He’s a total bed-hopping cad.
More seriously, I can’t talk for Paul but my guess is that he’s referring to peak Nomar vs. peak Jeter, and that at that juncture Nomar was better. This isn’t a grand statement, though many fans will argue about it.
But Nomar is simply not a Hall-of-Famer in my book (or any book, for that matter). His career flamed out. If Bagwell isn’t a HoFer then how can Nomar be one?

A ton of players do the ‘hand behind them while setting up thing’. I have a hard time believing Jeter is the only player in baseball history to do something like that in a set-up ritual. At least he doesn’t yell and whine every single time he gets a third strike call against him, which is infinitely more disrespectful.

“Seriously, prove that he didn’t”
Seeing as the Iron Lady and I have been dating on an exclusive basis since long before Jeter broke into the league, I am fairly confident he hasn’t.
Don’t tell my wife.

Wait, Jeter dating a lot of famous actresses means he’s a ‘cad’? Holy shit, guys. These are PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES. Are you really that jealous of Jeter being able to date a lot of hot women that you try and bring him down because of it? And this isn’t me being ‘a guy I root for has more sex than a guy you root for’, I genuinely don’t give a rat’s ass about someone’s sex life, plentiful or arid, and neither should you.

“I actually shook her hand in Bermuda.”
I don’t even know where to begin. Krueg, you amaze me. Were you in your snorkelling gear at the time?

krueg, I assume you and Maggie hit it off because you were both wearing your Gilbert Perreault shirts and punching down beer bongs, right?

Okay, I can’t believe I didn’t realize the sarcasm.
But about Paul’s post – I think he’s making Jeter responsible for a lot of things he can’t control, i.e. other people’s opinions of his defense, sex life, way he plays the game, etc. Jeter has pride as a baseball player, and you can’t fault him for that. But I dare you to find a single instance where he displayed ‘pride’ in the number of hot women he’s slept with, or talked about how great he is defensively or intangibly.
What is Jeter supposed to do? Is he supposed to tell the media “Look, guys, the fact of the matter is that I really kind of suck at defense. Always have, always will. I am hereby giving all my gold gloves to all the fielders who really deserved them. And that intangibles stuff? What is that? You guys totally made that up. Stop saying good things about me that probably aren’t true!”

By the way, Jeter has won a bunch of gold gloves. Now we all know the award is bs, but do players know that? Managers vote on that, so I assume the award reflects the prevailing opinion of people who play the game. This is to say that if Jeter won a bunch of these awards before A-Rod got here, why would he think he needed to move for A-Rod? The noise over his fielding, especially among the mainstream, is very recent.
Andrew, Paul’s jeremiad against Jeter is about as irrational as it gets for Paul. If I were to articulate what I thought of Pedroia and his supposed dazzling sense of humor, I would come across as equally irrational. It’s fandom. Again, Paul is a very good Red Sox fan.

There is a thing called the Peppercorn Ceremony in Bermuda…a bunch of pomp and circumstance over a ceremonial peppercorn that was presented to the crown when it was a colony or something…ANYWAYS…I walked down to it from our condo and stood in crowd that was lining a street and she was walking down the line, shaking hands and greeting people. Being that I was much taller/bigger than everyone else, even at age 15 (i think this was 1990?)i just muscled through the crowd and was able to shake her hand and say “hello”…she said something to the effect of “my, aren’t you a tall young man…”
It was awesome.

“…I disagree that DC’s “history” of the Jeter debate is well said, or even accurate….”
well paul, i think you may not realize it, but from your comments, you agree more with my recollections of past jeter discussions on this site and elsewhere, much more than you think…in fact you unwittingly confirmed my point dead on: some sox fans have an irrational obsession and dislike for jeter, while grudgingly accepting the fact that he’s a HOF shoe-in…in fact, i’m convinced that your jeter-hate is far more intense than my jeter-love…and if you re-read what i said, forgetting for a minute that it’s me, you’ll realize that i did not paint all sox fans with the same brush, nor did i say that all sox fans at this site see things the same way as you, or at least not with the same intensity…your long, tortured, contrived response suggests that you saw yourself in my comments…

I don’t see anywhere where I “grudgingly admitted” anything. The man’s a Hall of Famer. I can not like Hall of Famers. Not to compare Jeter to Ty Cobb, who was genuinely a despicable person, but I don’t “grudgingly” admit that Cobb is a Hall of Famer, despite not liking anything about him, his game or his persona.
Anyway, IH, in response to your question, Nomar is not a HOFer. He was a HOF talent whose HOF-track career was derailed by injuries. He has a peak-level argument for the Hall that makes him much closer to borderline than many might realize, but in the end he falls short in my book (and most others’), and it’s not particularly close.
So, as SF said, at their peaks, which conveniently was about the same time for all of them, A-Rod was the best shortstop, Nomar was the second-best, and Jeter was the third-best. They would all be wrapping up HOF careers today were it not for injuries to Nomar (and possibly the steroid thing for ARod).
By the way, I don’t claim the hand-plate thing is anything more than my own irrational dislike. It confirms everything I want to believe about Jeter (which may or may not be true). That’s why I didn’t try defending it.
You all are probably right about the private-life stuff. It’s clearly none of my (or anyone else’s) business, and it’s wrong to assume he’s having sex if he’s dating someone.
I also think Andrew is right that Jeter can’t really control and isn’t responsible for the inaccurate or overheated things said about him. He didn’t generate a media campaign to give him credit for intangibles and leadership, nor did he decide to do the jump-throw thing or dive into the stands because he knew it would win him lots of Gold Gloves and cover over his average-to-poor range. Athletes to an extent simply can’t control what things the baseball writers get it into their minds to say about them, whether good or bad.
And there’s always a seed of truth to them, so I have no problems believing Jeter is a good clubhouse leader; so many current and former teammates say so, it would be stupid to deny it. Does that leadership add many wins to the Yankees and bring championships they otherwise wouldn’t have, as the baseball media would argue? I’m doubtful, just as I accept that Jason Varitek calls a very good game and exhibits quality clubhouse leadership but am doubtful that he possesses such amazing catching and leadership powers that it makes up for his otherwise degraded skills in other facets of his game. And I accept that Jeter has hand-eye coordination, instincts, solid hands and a strong arm, all of which combine to allow him to make great plays on occasion and mitigate somewhat the fact that his legs just don’t take him to the ball very quickly.
It’s not his fault the media ignore the seeds of truth in favor of the myth surrounding them. But it is frustrating to watch. I get annoyed about that when it’s done to players on my own team. Jason Varitek was a great player in his own right during his prime; we don’t need to beatify him. Dustin Pedroia is a legitimate MVP-quality player; let’s tone down the small white guy “scrappiness/grittiness” language, however true those may or may not be.
But obviously I find it more annoying when Yankee players are the focus of this misguided adulation. Which I think is appropriate. I don’t like the Yankees, after all. It would be one thing to be pleased when media underrate the Yankees or their players, or when media accurately assess a Yankee’s contributions. That would be pretty dumb.
So I try to keep separate the rational and irrational parts of my dislike for Jeter. I dislike him more than most Yankees and want to see him fail more than most Yankees. That’s mostly irrational, caused by outside forces he cannot control. I would say that is true for every fan. How many Yankee fans hate Kevin Youkilis for his style of play yet loved Paul O’Neill? Hate Dustin Pedroia despite the fact that he hustles, runs out every ball, doesn’t usually complain about bad calls, plays through pain and gives the proverbial 110 percent every play? I know many Yankee fans would probably call these players their least favorite members of the Red Sox for reasons equally irrational. Fandom is not always rational.
My rational dislike for Jeter, then, is that he’s good and he’s a member of the Yankees. For a long time, I’ve said I’d be happy to have him playing shortstop for the Red Sox. That has changed the past two years as he has declined and players like Marco Scutaro and Jed Lowrie have matched or exceeded his value, but it doesn’t mean I don’t respect him as a ballplayer, don’t respect what he’s done for the game and the franchise, and it doesn’t mean I have to “grudgingly” admit he’s an all-time great. I can respect him and congratulate him and put him in his rightful spot in history all while hoping he grounds out weakly to shortstop every time he steps to the plate.

See, I know too many decent, intelligent, and generous Yankee fans to hate the base. I hate that arrogant, despicable team.

Nice SF…
It is weird how the fanbases hate each other more than the players do. I wish I would have been older in the 70’s for those rivalry games. It seems like the Fisk Sox vs the Munson Yanks were epic. I mean, fights??? Awesome.

“I hate that arrogant, despicable team”.
I would be willing to bet that a poll of opposing teams, players, owners, and fanbases would reflect that much of the above assessment of the Yankee organization and its fanbase (though I know YOU were not describing the fanbase SF) is now felt around baseball in equal measure vis-a-vis the Sox. With perhaps added distaste for the hypocritical “little-engine-that-could” mythology that some in that organization (“they’re an Evil Empire!!!!”) and in its fanbase continue to perpetuate to conveniently look past the fact that they’ve pretty much become what they said for all these decades that they hated.
This is how I feel about the Red Sox organization and so many of their fans who I meet outside of this forum.

“This is how I feel about the Red Sox organization and so many of their fans who I meet outside of this forum.”
This is what I’ve been saying all along. It seems like pre-2004, SF’s became everything that they hate…and I have certainly seen my share of asshole YF’s.

Saying Nomar was clearly second-best requires a certain amount of hubris. Nomar had two years where he was better than Jeter. I’m not sure I’d even call that a better peak. Two years could have been flukey. Nomar was also playing at Fenway those years (career at Fenway: .338/.384/.572).
In this light, Nomar looks a lot like Mattingly. An excellent few years followed by injuries and a rapid fall. Still, who’s to say Nomar didn’t juice? Wasn’t he on one of the lists? And this Nomar:
Looks very different from this Nomar:
A-Rod clearly would have been the best SS of all-time, if not for Jeter. Amazing to think what the rivalry would have been in 2004 to the present had the Sox opened their wallets to get him. It’s hard to imagine the rivalry more charged, but at a time when Jeter couldn’t stand A-Rod, it wold have been interesting. And A-Rod would still be playing short for the Sox. That’s utterly amazing to me.

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