Ranking

Four things jumped out at me while I was compiling this:
1. The Red Sox have cost themselves a win already just by using Mike Cameron as little as they have. He’s been that bad. At least the Yankees have reciprocated with Nunez, Posada and Cervelli.
2. Robinson Cano is obviously having the better year at the plate, but Pedroia is rated the more valuable of the two by quite a bit, thanks to superior baserunning and defense. Cue the debate. Of course, Pedroia’s recent surge on offense has helped close the gap on that front, too, and you just don’t get quite as much publicity when you lead the two teams in walks either.
3. Russell Martin and Jarrod Saltalamacchia are having similar years at the plate. Martin’s been much more valuable because he’s played a lot more, and his on-base skills give him a strong advantage in wOBA and wRC+. Hard to imagine they have essentially the same OPS+, though.
4. Nick Swisher is having a dreadful year at the plate, right in the mix with the dreaded Crawford-Jeter-Drew-Posada black hole of death, but he sure knows how to take a walk, tied for second with Kevin Youkilis among the 24 starters/top reserves in the rivalry.

15-day DL for the Captain…

“Taking the Crawford bait, it’s clear he would still fight Jeter for that title, and they’re both a fair sight better than Posada, at this point.”
10 rings > 0 rings.
Not much analysis needed for that stat.

Why is this guy talking out of both sides of his mouth?:
http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=6661796
It’s obvious he wants a deal, and a multiyear offer, made before the season is out. Yet, I’m sure they also told him that’s not happening. So now he starts to play coy and talk about the potential distraction? Even as he talks about it?

Regarding Youk: he’s made a lot of poor throws to first, which has been negated by AGonz’ glove. But it hasn’t been terribly pretty.
Aside from that I can’t say much about how his defense has looked.

I know, I know…we cannot ever reference that fact. Even though you constantly bash Jeter. Truth hurts dude. Deal with it.

Why are you generalizing to YFs when it’s only one?

“…Is it really impossible to talk about Jeter’s poor season without YFs thinking we’re attacking his entire career?…”
no
ath, i think the problem for many yf’s is that we have had to defend this guy for his entire career, so it isn’t just about this year…while sf’s have slowly and grudgingly conceded that jeter has had a first ballot hall of fame career [a thought that just must be killing them], he just never quite measured up for them…and i say it’s solely because of his uniform and jealousy over the championship run he was a big part of making happen…i think that’s the source of krueg’s frustration…i know yfsf hasn’t been around that long, but i remember even at the beginning of his career, sox fans that i knew insisted that this skinny little punk was never going to make it…then there were the inevitable “well he’ll never be nomar” comparisons…in retrospect i say “good”, because the only way nomar is getting into the hall of fame is with a ticket, or an invite from jeter…even this site had a big discussion or 2 not all that long ago about how nomar was better, once or twice anyway, so there!…oy…we also got the power comparisons between arod, nomar, and jeter…that was back when rbi and hr’s were important to sf’s, because they proved that nomar and arod were better players, completely and conveniently ignoring the other things jeter did to help win games…when the yankees acquired arod, we got the snarky comments about how the yankees were so foolishly loyal to jeter, they put their best shortstop at third base…then we got the justifiably maligned defensive statistics trotted out to prove that what we all thought we were seeing with our own eyes was just a fantasy…players simply can’t make jump throws, or dive into the stands to make a catch, or make an out of position flip throw to save a playoff game…no, a few nerds in a lab somewhere decide whether batted balls “should” have been fielded or not…game saving plays and not making errors simply became less important than his zone rating…i won’t touch the gold glove thing, where so-called experts of the game are overruled by the stat-nerds…we even debated his cologne, which probably never sold bottle 1, and his choice of girlfriends, or his lack of choosing…at least he could play the field when it came to dating…ok, we get it, many sf’s have waited not so patiently for 17 seasons for the day jeter’s skills became so eroded with age and wear that he would become ordinary, and stop being a thorn in their side…’09 must have been a terrible year for them…’10 was much better, and collectively red sox nation began to salivate over the thought that this might be the beginning of the end…now in ’11 we get more over-exposure of his demise and the realization that ’10 was not an aberration…i would even go so far as to say some sf’s probably hope he comes up short of 3000 hits, which isn’t that big of a deal anyway because it’s just a numbers/counting thing and not a real stat…you asked if it’s impossible to talk about jeter’s poor season without us getting defensive…it shouldn’t be, but almost a day doesn’t go by without a snarky reminder that the guy is at the tail end of his career…for the millionth time, we get it…are {some of] you guys really that obsessed with him that you can’t let it go for a bit?…it’s ok, i don’t expect sf’s to root for jeter…i don’t root for sox players either…

If there’s one good thing about Jeter’s contract/presence, it pretty much assures that the Yankees won’t spend $200+M on Reyes. Decent player having a career year, always over-hyped to be better than he really is based on ‘promise’.
I’m personally hoping they can buy ‘low’ on Hanley once he starts earning double-digit millions. Maybe that’s what they’re saving Montero for.

I find much of what dc wrote re: the history of Jeter-attacks spot-on frankly and well-said, which is not to paint all SFs at this site as having partaken in the anti-jeter obsession, but I appreciate him laying it out so clearly.
So if we want to focus on Jeter THIS year, why don’t we compare apples to apples? Not Jeter to Gardner, but Jeter to other SSs.
If Jeter finishes the season with his current rate stats it will be the worst season of his career (discounting his partial ’95 break-in season).
Of the 30 major league SS’s who have played at least 30 games, this is where Jeter ranks on a number of offensive stats:
OBP: .324 (15th)
BA: .260 (18th)
Hits: 68 (10th)
SB: 7 (11th)
RBI: 20 (T-17th)
BB: 23 (8th)
SO: 31 (T-11th — only Jose Reyes and Jimmy Rollins have lower K’s per PA than Jeter)
Age: 37 (T-oldest with Renteria & Carroll)
So only Jeter’s BA is worse than middle of the pack right now. And again, if he stays on track with these stats, it will be – by far – his worst season.
Like every other fan and detractor I can see that Jeter is not the player he was in his prime. Then again, his prime was so superlative compared to others at his position, and he held his performance for so many years, that alot of people have simply been spoiled.
Would I like to have one of the best SSs in the league rather than one who is simply “above average” in 2011? Sure. But even those who want to focus on 2011 need to stop acting as if he is an anchor around this team’s neck.
As for defense, the metrics stink for single-season analysis, but of course the guy doesn’t have much range, though he is as sure-handed as anyone.

I’m realistic. They’re not going to DFA him. The best we can hope for is 2nd. 9th is correct but out of the question this year.
The one problem you leave out is his defense. It’s what makes him a net negative according to bWAR. fWAR has him at half a win. But your points are well-taken and it’s what I was arguing here a few weeks back when the photos of toast and porridge were posted. As a SS, Jeter still has value. The question for me is whether Nunez and yes, Reyes (being a free agent), have more value. I think they do.
Any one else notice that Lowrie’s defense is awful at SS?

Posada still has pop. He should be higher when he plays.
As for Cervelli, he sucks. He shouldn’t be playing. Not with Montero in the system.
By the way, Ryan Lavarnway is in AAA for the Sox after crushing AA (.284/.360/.510). And his defense has been solid too. He may be the best catcher in the Sox system right now, majors included.

Paul, your dislike of Jeter comes entirely from the fact that he’s a Yankee. Let’s be honest. You’re a good Red Sox fan. I mean that in the nicest way possible, but the above monologue would be a love sonnet to Jeter if he had the same career as a Sock.

This is a great discusion and I appreciate the comprehensive and relatively dispassionate and self-reflective summary of your Jeter-hatred Paul.
A couple points:
1. “it’s no shame to be third-best of three HOF talents” – is Nomar a HOF’er in your view Paul? That is honestly not a dig. It’s a genuine question.
2. The comment about Jeter sleeping with tons of women is at least as out of bounds as the double standard you point to if indeed he were sleeping with tons of women. Do you know how many women he has slept with? Really??? He has dated several celebrity women so he has slept with all of them? It is more respectful to those women, and women in general, not to mention to Jeter, to assume they all had sx with him? I’m sorry bit I find that line of argument really bizarre. And I am someone who agrees completely re: the problem of double standards in society when it comes to gender and diversity. But you’re acting as if Jeter is Wilt Chamberlain, making bold claims about having slept with 1,000+ women. Jeter has been as discrete in his personal life as he has been in the clubhouse.
3. Jeter’s hand in the umpire’s face. It’s not really in his face and umpire’s don’t seem to have any problem with Jeter – on the contrary in fact.
I – respectfully – feel like interpreting Jeter’s AB-ritual as in any way disrespectful of umpires or the game – just as the take on Jeter and women – is much more reflective of your anti-jeter bias than anything real.

If Nomar is better than Jeter, then Marino is better than Brady. Which I’ve said all along so…cool.

Someone here should prove that Jeter didn’t sleep with Margaret Thatcher. Seriously, prove that he didn’t.
He’s a total bed-hopping cad.
More seriously, I can’t talk for Paul but my guess is that he’s referring to peak Nomar vs. peak Jeter, and that at that juncture Nomar was better. This isn’t a grand statement, though many fans will argue about it.
But Nomar is simply not a Hall-of-Famer in my book (or any book, for that matter). His career flamed out. If Bagwell isn’t a HoFer then how can Nomar be one?

“Seriously, prove that he didn’t”
Seeing as the Iron Lady and I have been dating on an exclusive basis since long before Jeter broke into the league, I am fairly confident he hasn’t.
Don’t tell my wife.

I think SF wrote that with tongue firmly in cheek Andrew.
Paul on the other hand has stepped firmly outside his Spock-like analytical persona on this subject!

“I actually shook her hand in Bermuda.”
I don’t even know where to begin. Krueg, you amaze me. Were you in your snorkelling gear at the time?

krueg, I assume you and Maggie hit it off because you were both wearing your Gilbert Perreault shirts and punching down beer bongs, right?

By the way, Jeter has won a bunch of gold gloves. Now we all know the award is bs, but do players know that? Managers vote on that, so I assume the award reflects the prevailing opinion of people who play the game. This is to say that if Jeter won a bunch of these awards before A-Rod got here, why would he think he needed to move for A-Rod? The noise over his fielding, especially among the mainstream, is very recent.
Andrew, Paul’s jeremiad against Jeter is about as irrational as it gets for Paul. If I were to articulate what I thought of Pedroia and his supposed dazzling sense of humor, I would come across as equally irrational. It’s fandom. Again, Paul is a very good Red Sox fan.

I think you mean bongs SF…just bongs…
And yes, Maggie is a HUGE Sabres fan. Isn’t everyone???

“she said something to the effect of ‘my, aren’t you a tall young man…'”
A Prime Ministerial come-on line if I ever heard one.

I don’t see anywhere where I “grudgingly admitted” anything. The man’s a Hall of Famer. I can not like Hall of Famers. Not to compare Jeter to Ty Cobb, who was genuinely a despicable person, but I don’t “grudgingly” admit that Cobb is a Hall of Famer, despite not liking anything about him, his game or his persona.
Anyway, IH, in response to your question, Nomar is not a HOFer. He was a HOF talent whose HOF-track career was derailed by injuries. He has a peak-level argument for the Hall that makes him much closer to borderline than many might realize, but in the end he falls short in my book (and most others’), and it’s not particularly close.
So, as SF said, at their peaks, which conveniently was about the same time for all of them, A-Rod was the best shortstop, Nomar was the second-best, and Jeter was the third-best. They would all be wrapping up HOF careers today were it not for injuries to Nomar (and possibly the steroid thing for ARod).
By the way, I don’t claim the hand-plate thing is anything more than my own irrational dislike. It confirms everything I want to believe about Jeter (which may or may not be true). That’s why I didn’t try defending it.
You all are probably right about the private-life stuff. It’s clearly none of my (or anyone else’s) business, and it’s wrong to assume he’s having sex if he’s dating someone.
I also think Andrew is right that Jeter can’t really control and isn’t responsible for the inaccurate or overheated things said about him. He didn’t generate a media campaign to give him credit for intangibles and leadership, nor did he decide to do the jump-throw thing or dive into the stands because he knew it would win him lots of Gold Gloves and cover over his average-to-poor range. Athletes to an extent simply can’t control what things the baseball writers get it into their minds to say about them, whether good or bad.
And there’s always a seed of truth to them, so I have no problems believing Jeter is a good clubhouse leader; so many current and former teammates say so, it would be stupid to deny it. Does that leadership add many wins to the Yankees and bring championships they otherwise wouldn’t have, as the baseball media would argue? I’m doubtful, just as I accept that Jason Varitek calls a very good game and exhibits quality clubhouse leadership but am doubtful that he possesses such amazing catching and leadership powers that it makes up for his otherwise degraded skills in other facets of his game. And I accept that Jeter has hand-eye coordination, instincts, solid hands and a strong arm, all of which combine to allow him to make great plays on occasion and mitigate somewhat the fact that his legs just don’t take him to the ball very quickly.
It’s not his fault the media ignore the seeds of truth in favor of the myth surrounding them. But it is frustrating to watch. I get annoyed about that when it’s done to players on my own team. Jason Varitek was a great player in his own right during his prime; we don’t need to beatify him. Dustin Pedroia is a legitimate MVP-quality player; let’s tone down the small white guy “scrappiness/grittiness” language, however true those may or may not be.
But obviously I find it more annoying when Yankee players are the focus of this misguided adulation. Which I think is appropriate. I don’t like the Yankees, after all. It would be one thing to be pleased when media underrate the Yankees or their players, or when media accurately assess a Yankee’s contributions. That would be pretty dumb.
So I try to keep separate the rational and irrational parts of my dislike for Jeter. I dislike him more than most Yankees and want to see him fail more than most Yankees. That’s mostly irrational, caused by outside forces he cannot control. I would say that is true for every fan. How many Yankee fans hate Kevin Youkilis for his style of play yet loved Paul O’Neill? Hate Dustin Pedroia despite the fact that he hustles, runs out every ball, doesn’t usually complain about bad calls, plays through pain and gives the proverbial 110 percent every play? I know many Yankee fans would probably call these players their least favorite members of the Red Sox for reasons equally irrational. Fandom is not always rational.
My rational dislike for Jeter, then, is that he’s good and he’s a member of the Yankees. For a long time, I’ve said I’d be happy to have him playing shortstop for the Red Sox. That has changed the past two years as he has declined and players like Marco Scutaro and Jed Lowrie have matched or exceeded his value, but it doesn’t mean I don’t respect him as a ballplayer, don’t respect what he’s done for the game and the franchise, and it doesn’t mean I have to “grudgingly” admit he’s an all-time great. I can respect him and congratulate him and put him in his rightful spot in history all while hoping he grounds out weakly to shortstop every time he steps to the plate.

See, I know too many decent, intelligent, and generous Yankee fans to hate the base. I hate that arrogant, despicable team.

“I hate that arrogant, despicable team”.
I would be willing to bet that a poll of opposing teams, players, owners, and fanbases would reflect that much of the above assessment of the Yankee organization and its fanbase (though I know YOU were not describing the fanbase SF) is now felt around baseball in equal measure vis-a-vis the Sox. With perhaps added distaste for the hypocritical “little-engine-that-could” mythology that some in that organization (“they’re an Evil Empire!!!!”) and in its fanbase continue to perpetuate to conveniently look past the fact that they’ve pretty much become what they said for all these decades that they hated.
This is how I feel about the Red Sox organization and so many of their fans who I meet outside of this forum.

Saying Nomar was clearly second-best requires a certain amount of hubris. Nomar had two years where he was better than Jeter. I’m not sure I’d even call that a better peak. Two years could have been flukey. Nomar was also playing at Fenway those years (career at Fenway: .338/.384/.572).
In this light, Nomar looks a lot like Mattingly. An excellent few years followed by injuries and a rapid fall. Still, who’s to say Nomar didn’t juice? Wasn’t he on one of the lists? And this Nomar:
http://news.wbru.com/2010/03/sports-rundown-uri-is-in-pc-is-out-nomar-retires-with-the-red-sox-and-crazy-recruitment-efforts/
Looks very different from this Nomar:
http://rumorsandrants.com/2010/02/no-more-nomar.html
A-Rod clearly would have been the best SS of all-time, if not for Jeter. Amazing to think what the rivalry would have been in 2004 to the present had the Sox opened their wallets to get him. It’s hard to imagine the rivalry more charged, but at a time when Jeter couldn’t stand A-Rod, it wold have been interesting. And A-Rod would still be playing short for the Sox. That’s utterly amazing to me.