Start Breathing Again

While those of us in the Central time zone were on lunch break, the expected — but oh so tenuous — took place. The Red Sox and Daisuke Matsuzaka apparently reached an agreement.

“You can assume that a deal is done or close,” said one source with direct knowledge of the talks.

Team owner John W. Henry confirmed that Boras and Matsuzaka were flying back with the team, writing in an e-mail to the Associated Press: "They all took off together." Team president Larry Lucchino said shortly after noon EST that the plane was leaving California.

If the numbers the Herald quoted earlier are accurate, the Red Sox not only forced Boras to move further in negotiations than they did, they also forced him to accept their deadline. It seems to be a win for the Red Sox all the way around — not least of which because they’re going to have a starting rotation that will rank among the best in the league.

222 comments… add one
  • And to repost Lockland’s truly awesome find, it appears The Plane is about to cross into Colorado.
    http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N611JW

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 2:10 pm
  • Red Sox Strike Deal Daisuke Matsuzaka has reached a six-year, $52 million deal with the Red Sox, SI.com’s Jon Heyman has learned.
    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/
    If true, WOW.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2006, 2:16 pm
  • “…a six-year, $52 million deal…”
    NO WAY!
    If that’s true, the incentives must be crazy.

    Devine December 13, 2006, 2:18 pm
  • An amazing deal, if true. $8.67 million per year?? That’s an incredible bargain.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 2:19 pm
  • Do the Red Sox really have one of the best rotations in the AL? You are assuming that Beckett isn’t as bad as he was last year, Wakefield is healthy and able to reverse a declining trend, Schilling continues to be an above average pitcher as he passes 40, Papelbon is capable of throwing 180+ innings without injury problems and D-Mat is not the next Irabu.
    Conisdering all those question marks, its hard to argue that the Red Sox have a top staff.

    Will December 13, 2006, 2:20 pm
  • The rotation is better than it was 10 minutes ago Will, and that’s fine for me right now.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2006, 2:22 pm
  • Not if you use common sense and apply those same rigorous standards to every staff in the league, Will. I’m sure of course you were doing that before you made your knee-jerk reply.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 2:23 pm
  • OK, well who definately has a better staff? Toronto? Burnett and Halladay aren’t exactly horses, Chacin either sucks or has never been healthy, and we still don’t know who their 4th and 5th are. The A’s and Angels? Oakland’s looking iffy, given Harden’s health woes and Zito’s departure…though the Angels look pretty damn good. Lackey-Weaver-Escobar-Santana ain’t too shabby.
    But really, nobody else compares…and those that do have a ton of question marks themselves. The Angels have the best rotation on paper…but who besides Boston could be in second?
    PS: Douggie’s goin deep again! Not a huge fan of this move…

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 2:28 pm
  • Congrats SF’s
    …and here’s hoping he gives YF’s as much pleasure as Irabu undoubtedly gave you.

    Andrews December 13, 2006, 2:28 pm
  • Actually it says Mirabelli’s only a 1-year thing…I guess that’s not so bad…

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 2:29 pm
  • According to SI, the deal has escalators that could bring it to a toal $60M — which is still only $10M/year.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 2:31 pm
  • Fine with me. That’s the definition of fair-split the difference with performance-based incentives.

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 2:32 pm
  • Of course that would be Matsuzaka’s deal, not Mirabelli’s.
    Can’t say I hate the move. Who else is out there? Sandy Almoar Jr. I think not…

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 2:33 pm
  • Toby Hall. Though he’s not exactly Pudge with the bat, and we don’t know how well he’d handle the knuckler. He’d be a pretty good fit for New York, though.
    Rod Barajas is available too…but I think he wants a starting gig.

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 2:35 pm
  • thievery.
    kudos to theo epsteinbrenner.

    Yankee Fan In Boston December 13, 2006, 2:42 pm
  • Lockland…I’m glad you set such a low bar. The Sox are better than they were 10 minutes ago, but they need to be better than they have been since 2005.
    Paul…my reply was hardly knee-jerk, but apparently yours was. The Angels and Tigers clearly have the top-2 staffs in the league. The Cleveland staff is also better than Boston’s. Then, you have the Yankees, Twins and White Sox, all of whom rank alongside, if not better, than the Red Sox. That puts Boston in the middle of the pack and not at the top of the league. If you try to be objective, that should be rather evident.

    Will December 13, 2006, 2:44 pm
  • Will is teh killjoy.
    But it ain’t workin’ on THIS guy!
    *dances*
    Still rather skeptical that that’s the final contract number, but stoked that they’re close to actually having this thing done.

    Devine December 13, 2006, 2:46 pm
  • With our staff healthy and pitching to their ability, you’re dead wrong Will.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2006, 2:47 pm
  • > With our staff healthy and pitching to their ability
    There’s the nugget.

    attackgerbil December 13, 2006, 2:50 pm
  • “Then, you have the Yankees, Twins and White Sox, all of whom rank alongside, if not better, than the Red Sox.”
    So being tied for third makes the Sox middle of the pack? That’s certainly an interesting statement. Guess that makes the Yankees middle of the pack, too, then.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 2:52 pm
  • The Twins rank alongside Boston and those other teams? Is that a joke? Right now, Carlos Silva is their No. 2. Yeah, they’ve got the best pitcher in baseball in Santana…but not much else. They have the potential to have a solid staff…but on paper I don’t think it looks that great; we don’t know how much Bonser, Baker, and Garza will progress.
    White Sox? If you expect Buerhle to buck the trend and completely bounce back…then maybe they’ll be OK. But he and Garland both finished the season very poorly, we don’t know how good McCarthy will be, and it’s hard to say Vasquez is anything better then a No. 3 or 4 at this point.
    You have a point about the Indians; if Lee and Sowers pitch to their potential they’ll have a very solid rotation. But even if on paper you call Boston 3rd-best, or tied for 3rd-best with NY…I’m pretty sure that still qualifies as “one of the best.” On paper, of course, and assuming health and guys approximately reaching their potential.

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 2:53 pm
  • AG, that’s the nugget for every pitching staff in the league, not just the Red Sox. It applies especially to the Yankees and White Sox, as well, whose staffs also have issues with age, injuries and underperformance. The Angels are indeed quite good. The Indiand have Sabathia and I’m having trouble coming up with others — Westbrook and Byrd are in that rotation, right?

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 2:54 pm
  • All we can ask for is a team that’s constantly trying to improve, especially with pitching, that’s what we have going on here, so that makes me happy. Nothing is going to change that.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2006, 2:57 pm
  • between randy, moose, pettit, and mo, you have over 200 years of major league service. thats a good thing right?

    sf rod December 13, 2006, 2:58 pm
  • これはすばらしいニュースである! 祝う時間!
    If that 6/$52 figure is legit, this is an awesome deal for all sides. The Red Sox own his rights at a reasonable price for six years, Matsuzaka gets a good chunk of change and his chance to realize his dream and pitch on a big stage, plus job security, and Boras landed the biggest contract ever given to a posted Japanese player. What’s not to love?

    mouse December 13, 2006, 2:59 pm
  • Seth December 13, 2006, 3:04 pm
  • Hehe, I was just looking at that, Seth. Looks like Keith Law is the only one remotely close on contract AAV, and one of the few to say the Red Sox controlled the negotiations.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 3:08 pm
  • Stark was close, if you include incentives. And I actually agree with him when he says Matsuzaka was in control of the negotiations…

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 3:10 pm
  • Oops, missed that one. You’re right, d-1. Stark came the closest it seems like. Not surprising, considering he and Neyer are the best writers they have.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 3:13 pm
  • Lockland…you can be happy all you want. No one is telling you not to be. Happiness doesn’t excuse exaggerated assessments of your team, however.
    Paul…being anywhere from fourth to seventh does qualify as being in the middle of the pack of a 14 team league. And yes, the Yankees pitching staff is also in the middle of the pack at this point. Pettitte, Wang and Mussina are a solid top-3, but the Yankees have plenty of questions at the bottom of the rotation. The difference of course is that the Yankees have a better bullpen and offense than Boston does, so the need to have a top staff is mitigated.
    As for Cleveland, if you are having trouble coming up with pitchers beyond Sabathia, that probably explains yours overestimation of the Sox. The Indians also have Lee, Westbrook and Sowers, all of whom had an ERA+ over 100 in 2006.
    Finally, you can sell the Twins short if you’d like, but they still have Johan (who is the unquestioned best pitcher in the league) as well as very promising young arms in Baker, Bonser and Garza. The Sox rotation might be better than the Twins, but if Minnesota gets anything from the young guys, Santana more than makes up for the difference.

    Will December 13, 2006, 3:19 pm
  • “so the need to have a top staff is mitigated.”
    How did that work out in the playoffs last year?
    I’m also pretty sure the offensive gap will be a lot tighter this year.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2006, 3:22 pm
  • > AG, that’s the nugget for every pitching staff in the league, not just the Red Sox.
    Of course, I agree completely with that statement. I understand the optimism bubbling over in Sox fandom; I really do. If I were a Sox fan, I’d be happy with what the team has pulled off in the offseason so far. I’d also have durability concerns regarding Schilling and Wakefield (though he, after Julio Franco, will likely be baseball’s next Dick Clark). Beckett threw over 200 innings for the first time last season; that’s promising. Then there are the unknown quantities of Matsuzaka and Papelbon: everything we’ve seen so far leads me to think they will both be at least average and likely better than average starters, but the realist in me would want to see some results before I start setting my expectations so high. Boston’s team ERA was a full run higher than the Tigers last year.

    attackgerbil December 13, 2006, 3:23 pm
  • Lockland – what’s the difference in the Sox staff? One unproven player? How many games did they finish out of the playoffs last year?

    Lar December 13, 2006, 3:24 pm
  • I am glad Sukasan is signed. I want to see the gyroball pitch where he can strike someone out on one pitch in person.

    Seth December 13, 2006, 3:24 pm
  • The Sox rotation is indeed impressive at this point, at least as impressive as any pitching staff can hope to be, given the many things that can go wrong with any rotation.
    It’s reasonable to expect Beckett to improve over last year, having gotten his jitters out; for Wakefield to be Wakefield, almost surely improving over ’06 assuming he gets better run support; and for Matsuzaka to win at least 14-15 games, maybe better.
    To me, the bigger question marks are (1) Schilling’s health and (2) whether Papelbon can make the transition from closer to starter.
    The good news is that Lester will likely be in the mix, able to move into the rotation if anyone goes down/disappoints; and if anything I’d rather see Tavarez do spot starts (where he was excellent, albeit with a small sample size) than go back to the pen (where he fully deserved his Orc nickname).
    Now the Sox need a closer, some middle relief, and maybe even a new setup man. Can’t expect much from Timlin, sad to say.

    Hudson December 13, 2006, 3:25 pm
  • But Will we’re discussing top staffs. If the Sox are ahead of the Yanks (no question marks at the bottom of their rotation) and ahead of the Twins (too many unproven youngsters), ahead of the White Sox (same problems as the Yankees), tied or just behind the Indians, and behind the Angels, being third in a league of 14 means they’re “one of the best rotations in the league.”

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 3:26 pm
  • Lar, pssstt…better offensive shortstop, better offensive right fielder (yeah yeah, if he’s healthy).

    Devine December 13, 2006, 3:26 pm
  • It doesn’t matter how things work out in the playoffs if you dont even get there. Besides, did St. Louis have a top staff (9th in the NL in ERA)? That seemed to work out well.
    As for the gap narrowing, I’m glad you are pretty sure, but do you have any reasoning behind your hunch? The Sox probably shoudl score more runs this season, but then again, so should the Yankees.

    Will December 13, 2006, 3:27 pm
  • Devine: I know I was being unfair, but you can’t expect me to take a low jab like that! =)

    Lar December 13, 2006, 3:28 pm
  • Lar, I wasn’t throwing that at you, it was at Will, for trying to piss on our cherios.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2006, 3:32 pm
  • Yeah, Lar, I wouldn’t expect you to. No harm, no foul.
    I fully acknowledge that this year’s rotation is full of question marks (each and every starter) and the bullpen is, ah, incomplete.
    But it’s still almost certain to be better than last year. There will still be excitement in September. Most likely no August of death in sight–I hope I never have to see anything like that again…everybody injured, losing every way possible. Oh God, that was…just…horrible.

    Devine December 13, 2006, 3:33 pm
  • Well, never mind. AG said it perfectly. I don’t deny the Sox’ question marks. I merely posit that every staff in the league has the same question marks, excepting Halladay and Santana.
    For the record, my take:
    Schilling — injury concerns, but likely to be very good.
    Matsuzaka — unproven, but likely to be very good.
    Beckett — improvement is reasonable to expect, and he also is likely to be very good.
    Wakefield — will be solid as usual. He was solid last year, but had no run support and pitched with an injury late, thus dooming his overall numbers.
    Papelbon — unproven, likely to be decent.
    There’s no reason to be unhappy. There’s no reason to say that, on paper, it’s not one of the best rotations in the league. I’m certainly hoping the Sox got all their bad injury mojo out of the way last year.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 3:33 pm
  • Paul…I know we are discussing staffs. I think the Red Sox are clearly behind LA and Detroit, very likely behind Cleveland and no better than the Yankees, Twins and White Sox. In other words, they are 4th at best and 8th at worst. If you average that out, you pretty much get the middle of the pack.
    If I was to apply the same optimism to the Yankees, I could argue that Moose, Wang and Pettitte will all repeat their 2006 performances, RJ will recover from his surgery and be above average, Kei Igawa will translate his success to the majors and Philip Hughes will step in and justify his ranking as one of the game’s top pitching prospects.
    Such a scenario is not out of the realm of possibility, but even fans need to temper their optimism with justifiable skepticism.

    Will December 13, 2006, 3:34 pm
  • So, Will, the Sox’ rotation is middle of the pack, then when we point out it has fewer question marks than the Yankees, you point out that to have a top staff is unnecessary. One argument at a time, please!

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 3:35 pm
  • > (no question marks at the bottom of their rotation)
    Even though Matsuzaka has never thrown a major-league start and Papelbon started, what, 3(?) games in 05, you don’t think there would even a tiny question mark?

    attackgerbil December 13, 2006, 3:37 pm
  • Illinois! (is where The Plane is over)

    Devine December 13, 2006, 3:37 pm
  • Sorry Paul, I see you replied after I made my last post. Disregard.

    attackgerbil December 13, 2006, 3:38 pm
  • It is far more realistic to expect good performances from Matsuzaka and Papelbon (the two big question marks) than from Johnson and Hughes, Will, and you know it.
    It is equally realistic to expect Schilling and Mussina to duplicate their years.
    It is equally realistic to list Beckett and Wang as question marks based on their past performance and what that means for future results, but to say it’s a good shot they each do very well.
    Pettite will probably outperform Wakefield.
    That still leaves the Sox in better shape than the Yanks.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 3:38 pm
  • December 13, 2006
    Henry: No deal yet
    By David Lefort, Boston.com Staff
    In an interview a few moments ago on Boston sports radio station WEEI 850 AM, Red Sox principal owner John W. Henry said that no deal between the Red Sox and pitcher Daisuke Matsuzaka had been struck, at least not before the parties boarded a plane bound for Boston earlier today.
    “Obviously we’re close enough that they’re all on a plane together,” Henry said, “but there’s been no deal.”
    “Unless it’s happened on the plane and they decided not to call me,” he joked.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2006, 3:39 pm
  • Paul…The Sox rotation does not have fewer question marks than the Yankees. While the bottom of the Yankees staff is pending the recovery of RJ, the signing of Igawa and promotion of Sanchez or Hughes, the top-3 are much more solid that the Sox top-3. On the whole, I think both teams have a near equal amount of uncertainty, and therefore both start the season in the middle of the pack.
    My point about the Yankees having more margin for error with their staff stems from having a better bullpen and offense. There are no contradictions in that argument. All that is required to understand it is an objective mind. Otherwise, you may as well just wave pom poms and become a cheerleader.

    Will December 13, 2006, 3:41 pm
  • i can understand the SFs’ optimism. whenever the yanks sign someone i’ve been coveting, i get all warm and fuzzy. i don’t talk to rainclouds on a sunny day.
    that said, i think both teams have their share of issues as far as pitching goes.

    Yankee Fan In Boston December 13, 2006, 3:42 pm
  • When I read the story I thought that Henry had pulled some kind of Black Op. and smuggled Matsusaka out of his hotel by cover of night.
    It will be interesting to see if the price is what people are saying, what the incentives actually are.
    It could be the normal stuff (win a Cy Young, win 15 games, pitch 200 innings, All Star game) but it could also be: Play over 100+ innings, Win 10 games, don’t make fun of JD Drew, Win one game against Yankees…

    walein December 13, 2006, 3:43 pm
  • …also, I think the Sox stink!

    walein December 13, 2006, 3:44 pm
  • was schilling banged up during the 2nd half last year? his ERA jumped a run, and his win/loss record wasn’t even close to the first.

    Yankee Fan In Boston December 13, 2006, 3:45 pm
  • “the top-3 are much more solid that the Sox top-3.”
    No arguments there, but the bottom two (Wakefield/Papelbon) is a much better bet than Johnson/Igawa/Hughes/Sanchez. The Sox are deeper 1-5, and the upside of the Top 3 is higher because of youth and health. Considering where they were last year, with no 4th or 5th starter, it’s a huge leap forward.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 3:45 pm
  • I’m surprised by the number of years (if true). Six! I would have assumed Boras would have tried to limit the length of contract to get D-Mats on the market as soon as possible. Instead, he’ll be making Matt Clement money for the next 6 years. Well-played by Theo and company.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2006, 3:47 pm
  • I think it’s fair to say most teams would love to have these “pitching problems” that the Yanks and Sox have.
    It’s all in fun anyhow, I mean, I can easily see DM go out and have a 5 ERA.. and I can also just as easily see him have a great 3 ERA season. That’s why they play them!

    Lar December 13, 2006, 3:48 pm
  • YFiB: He was. He missed a couple starts, I forget why. I want to say it was a strained side muscle. It’s why there’s some concern about his health going forward, though I think those concerns are minimal.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 3:48 pm
  • By the way, does anyone see the Sox have a chance with Clemens? How much would they be willing to offer Clemens if they haggle so much over a few mil to the “National Treasure”?

    Lar December 13, 2006, 3:49 pm
  • It is far more realistic to expect good performances from Matsuzaka and Papelbon (the two big question marks) than from Johnson and Hughes, Will, and you know it.
    **********
    Why is that? D-mat and Papelbon have started a combined 3 games between them. Hughes is Baseball America’s #1 rated pitching prospect and Johnson is a Hall of Famer one season removed from a very good year. What makes the Sox pair of question marks more certain the Yankees?
    It is equally realistic to expect Schilling and Mussina to duplicate their years.
    **********
    Here I agree. Of course, Mussina ranked 4th in ERA+, while Schilling didn’t even make the top-10, so that’s an advantage for the Yankees.
    It is equally realistic to list Beckett and Wang as question marks based on their past performance and what that means for future results, but to say it’s a good shot they each do very well.
    **********
    Why is Wang a question mark? He followed up an ERA+ of 111 in 2005 with 121 in 2006 (which was eigth in the league). Beckett, on the other hand, had an ERA+ of 92 in the AL. That’s a huge difference.
    Pettite will probably outperform Wakefield.
    **********
    That is probably likely.
    That still leaves the Sox in better shape than the Yanks.
    **********
    How so? If Wang is better than Beckett, Pettitte better than Wakefield and Mussina better than Schilling, then you really think the Papelbon/D-Mat duo are the much better than RJ/Igawa/Sanchez/Hughes?

    Will December 13, 2006, 3:50 pm
  • thanks, paul. i guess if it was minor it might not be an issue at all come spring.

    Yankee Fan In Boston December 13, 2006, 3:50 pm
  • “It doesn’t matter how things work out in the playoffs if you dont even get there. Besides, did St. Louis have a top staff (9th in the NL in ERA)? That seemed to work out well.”
    Can we all just say that the St. Louis Cardinals were an anomaly, and mutually agree never to mention them in defense of a position in any argument, ever? (Unless that position involves the NL Central sucking in 2006)
    Seriously…they were the best of a crappy group of teams thanks to an early season jump, and were, in terms of record and logic, the worst WS team in recent history. Nothing they did proves anything, except that they played in a shit division and got hot in the playoffs.
    Anyway…I don’t get this argument. Nothing ever goes the way it looks like it will on paper. Boston’s ROTATION (not pen, we weren’t talking about overall pitching staffs) has the POTENTIAL to be ONE OF the best…but so does Detroit, LAA, and Cleveland. You might be able to include the Yanks on that list, but honestly, and I say this with as much impartiality as I can muster…I don’t think that’s terribly realistic. Boston needs 1 40+ to be a top of the rotation starter, and 3 <30's...I think that's more likely to happen given age and recent injury history then banking on Mussina, RJ, and Pettitte to all perform extremely well and stay healthy. Both rotations have questions, yes, and New York has the POTENTIAL to be near the top...I just don't see how anyone can argue that they're more likely, or even as likely as Boston or any of those other teams to pan out.
    PS: The NY top 3 is more solid then the Boston top 3? The way I see it, Wang-Mussina-Pettitte are likely to perform at around the level many of us expect: Mid-to-High-3's to Mid-4's. Injury woes surround Mussina and Pettitte. Out of Schilling, Beckett, and Matsuzaka, it's a reasonable prediction to make that Schilling will be around where he was last season: mid-to-high 3's to low 4's. As for Beckett and Matsuzaka...their ceilings are higher than NY's; either COULD end up posting a low-to-mid-3's ERA. But the risk involved means their floors are lower-either could end up in the mid-to-high 4's or 5's. Taking all this into consideration...I'd say the top 3's from the two staffs look pretty even, and the 4-5 edge does look to go to Boston. For now. I mean for all the talk about Papelbon being an unknown commodity...Hughes and Sanchez haven't been above AA.

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 3:56 pm
  • Papelbon has a year of experience in MLB; Hughes has none. You cannot simultaneously trash Papelbon’s experience while lifting up Hughes’ potential.
    Neither Matsuzaka nor Papelbon has just had back surgery, neither pitcher is coming off a simply horrible season. If you truly would rather have Johnson and Igawa/Hughes over Papelbon and Matsuzaka, then I’m not the one waving the pom poms in this discussion.
    We’ve had this convo about Wang outperforming his rates before. There is concern/question about whether he can sustain his success without striking out batters.
    We all agree each club has a ton of question marks. I’m just saying the Sox’ question marks are smaller than the Yanks’.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 3:57 pm
  • My bad…Sanchez was in AAA last year. But he wasn’t that spectacular.

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 3:59 pm
  • And I understand Matsuzaka has no MLB experience — but there’s a huge difference between NPB experience and AA experience, and another huge difference between Matsuzaka’s stuff and Igawa’s stuff.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 4:02 pm
  • YF’s let them have their moment. Mussina, Wang, Johnson, Pettitte and whoever fills in the 5 is NOTHING to be ashamed of. With an unproven 2Bman, a light hitting 1Bman, a fragile RF, a history of FA SS being busts and NO closer, I would say the Sox have more holes then the Yankees. But smile on RSN, you have your man.
    PS-Pettitte will “probably” outperform Wake? OK Sure.

    Triskaidekaphobia December 13, 2006, 4:03 pm
  • Light hitting 1B? It’s his job to get on base. Not slug. And this wasn’t a team-to-team comparison…just Will pissing on our rotation. (heh) Youk’s young and played hurt the entire second half last year. Look for an improvement.
    Heh, Youk’s one of my favorite Sox.

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 4:06 pm
  • Classy, Trisk. Classy.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 4:06 pm
  • man, Yankee fans are sure spewing the puke here. Not a fan I know didn’t want this kid, and now that Boston has him (and stole him at that), the staff is no better.
    Get over youselves.
    I’m not arguing, this is a great day to be a Sox fan.

    Brad December 13, 2006, 4:07 pm
  • The need of yfs here to make themselves feel better about the Sox getting Matsuzaka is indeed tiring.
    “Let them have their fun. Their team sucks and we know the Yanks will crush them, but go ahead, Sox fans — enjoy!”
    Insecurity has a funny way of expressing itself sometimes.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 4:08 pm
  • Agree, Brad. I’m gonna let the yfs sulk all they want, but I’m not responding anymore to their pissing contests.
    Back to Matsuzaka:
    WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-
    HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 4:10 pm
  • 5-3 1.76 ERA 86 k’s 71 inn. 10.5 k/9 for Erie
    5-3 3.86 ERA 43 k’s 51 inn. 7.5 k/9 for Toledo
    Yup pretty Pedestrian.

    Triskaidekaphobia December 13, 2006, 4:11 pm
  • http://yanksfansoxfan.typepad.com/ysfs/2006/12/meet_the_new_ya.html#comments
    Didn’t you guys “piss” all over Pettitte a few days ago? =P

    Lar December 13, 2006, 4:13 pm
  • Matsu’s in Ohio now.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 4:13 pm
  • Yanks are sending Farnsworth, Proctor and $50M cash to Sox for Matsuzaka.

    Seth December 13, 2006, 4:13 pm
  • That’s a very good point, every GM wanted this kid and we probably got him, so just suck on that a while.
    The Yankees did pay 26 million for the door prize though.
    WHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    LocklandSF December 13, 2006, 4:13 pm
  • whoa… hold on now… from what i’ve seen there are always biased views being expressed here. this isn’t baseball fan vs. baseball fan…
    as far as “insecurity” expressing itself, i’ve been in fenway while the sox were playing the royals and the majority of those in attendance were chanting about the vaccuous nature of the new york team.
    that is a blanket statement that doesn’t apply to everyone here, let alone the fanbases of either team as entities.
    i know plenty of unreasonable sox fans, but i know rational fans, too. same goes for yankees fans.

    Yankee Fan In Boston December 13, 2006, 4:14 pm
  • I guess in RSN, optimism trumps realism …at least in the off season. Just don’t start crying about how stupid Theo is when all of the question marks surface… we went through the same thing last year, but apparently, no lessons were learned (which, of course, is very good for the Yankees).

    Will December 13, 2006, 4:15 pm
  • “5-3 3.86 ERA 43 k’s 51 inn. 7.5 k/9 for Toledo”
    I said it wasn’t spectacular. Solid, but I don’t see how a 3.86 ERA in AAA and a 7.5 K/9 is anything to jump for joy about.
    And did you leave out his walks on purpose pal? 20 walks in AAA. And a 3.53 bb/9, 2.15 k/bb is not too good. Didn’t throw enough innings to conclusively say anything, but those stats aren’t great.

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 4:16 pm
  • a quick look at AL quality starts last year show beckett and schilling ranking 10th and 15th respectively with 19. tying them with bonderman, haren, rogers, and halladay. rj ranks 32nd and your ace wang comes in 23rd. if the sox bully is able to be somewhat better than they were last year, QS’s will turn into wins. hands down the sox starting 5 are better than the yanks, it’s up to the relief corps to decide weather that equates to wins.

    sf rod December 13, 2006, 4:16 pm
  • Seriously. And aren’t these the people who chant “Yankees Sucks” during the Patriot parade? Eh, inferiority complex much?
    Let’s not continue this.. =) Let’s just say that both the Yanks and the Sox have “one of the best pitching staff” in the league, and let it play on the field..

    Lar December 13, 2006, 4:17 pm
  • “I guess in RSN, optimism trumps realism …at least in the off season. Just don’t start crying about how stupid Theo is when all of the question marks surface… we went through the same thing last year, but apparently, no lessons were learned (which, of course, is very good for the Yankees).”
    Right, because it’s totally unrealistic for us to say “on paper, this could be one of the best rotations in the AL if everyone lives up to their potential.” Damn, we sure do need a reality check. Give me a fricken break…

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 4:18 pm
  • if the sox bully is able to be somewhat better than they were last year
    It appears the pen will be much worse than last year.

    Seth December 13, 2006, 4:18 pm
  • sf rod – just like how ERA probably turn to wins, eh? What are the numbers on that again?

    Lar December 13, 2006, 4:19 pm
  • would the sox still turn to hansen to close if it came to that? i know that was being thrown around last winter…

    Yankee Fan In Boston December 13, 2006, 4:20 pm
  • Was that a direct quote? How is what I said classless?? Because I stated facts?
    Less HR’s then Millar and Chris Shelton who played the last 1/3 of season in minors.
    Craig Wilson and Millar higher slg %.
    Doug Mientkiewicz had a higher avg last season and 20 pts lower in OB%.

    Triskaidekaphobia December 13, 2006, 4:22 pm
  • “It appears the pen will be much worse than last year.”
    Are you on crack? I don’t think that’s even possible.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2006, 4:23 pm
  • locklandsf, you could have pavano in your pen…

    Yankee Fan In Boston December 13, 2006, 4:24 pm
  • But the Yankees really do suck.
    Hehe.
    I’m talking about specifically here on this thread, in which clearly some yfs have decided that the proper response to Matsuzaka’s signing is to bash the Sox’ rotation.
    And, Will, if optimism and realism are mutually exclusive, as you posit, I assume you figure Boston fans can only be pessimistic about their rotation? (“Apparently optimism trumps realism …”)That tells me all I need to know right there about how realistic you’re really interested in being.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 4:25 pm
  • Are you on crack? I don’t think that’s even possible.
    Who is going to replace the 35 saves with 0.9 ERA? In 60 games you got one of the best relief performances ever. That does not just fall form a tree.

    Seth December 13, 2006, 4:26 pm
  • Ideally I think Boston would like Hansen to close all year in Pawtuckett.
    I think a deal for Otsuka from Texas is likely or perhaps Hansack will get a chance to close

    TJ Sox Fan December 13, 2006, 4:26 pm
  • personally, I think the Sox pitching staff looks good on paper. I also think the yanks staff looks good. My sense is that the Sox pitching staff has a higher level of volatility in either direction. I think it has the potential to be on the level of the Tigers because of the potential of Papelbon and DMats and..err….Beckett (still the most overrated player in baseball over the lasty 20 years:)). But we’ve never seen any of these pitchers actually be a front-line starter in the AL East. You could argue that four of the Yanks starters have actually been successful in this division as starters, and as #1 or #2 guys, at that. Two of those guys, Johnson and Pettitte, have seen better days, but they are not so far from decent years. Their potential going forward is a lot lower than young guys such as Paps and D-Mats, but they also aren’t slouches.

    Nick-YF December 13, 2006, 4:27 pm
  • True, Paps will be tough to replace, but I think the hope will be far less saves needed.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2006, 4:28 pm
  • Flying along the shore of Lake Erie now.
    For the record, how is it a case of “optimism trumping realism” to say: “I don’t deny the Sox’ question marks.”
    Anyone? Hello?

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 4:29 pm
  • Do not lump me in, the things I say are fact based.

    Triskaidekaphobia December 13, 2006, 4:30 pm
  • What’s your name mean, Triskaidekaphobia?

    Devine December 13, 2006, 4:32 pm
  • Nick’s the most overrated commenter on this issue:)
    Lay off it buddy, it’s sour grapes at this point.

    Brad December 13, 2006, 4:33 pm
  • LOL I love Sox fans.
    Fear of the number 13….Big A-Rod fan.

    Triskaidekaphobia December 13, 2006, 4:35 pm
  • lol, Nick. By Opening Day, Beckett’s going to be the most overrated pitcher in the history of baseball and the worst human being since Jack the Ripper. Which, you know, might actually help him out. Would YOU dare hit a homer against Jack the Ripper?

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 4:35 pm
  • Ah…fear of the number 13. Cool.
    Is it an A-Rod reference?

    Devine December 13, 2006, 4:35 pm
  • If RJ can even walk, can he pitch?
    If he was on my team I wouldn’t even factor him in the rotation until I actually see him toe the rubber.
    The man has no knees.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2006, 4:36 pm
  • it means that he’s been watching “that third baseman”.

    Yankee Fan In Boston December 13, 2006, 4:36 pm
  • Dang…one step behind…

    Devine December 13, 2006, 4:36 pm
  • Trisk…you bashed Boston’s SS because Boston has had a bad recent history of SS. That isn’t fact-based, and you know it; that’s a shot at Boston, and that’s all it is.
    You bashed 1B because he got outslugged by Millar and Shelton, then brought up Mientkiewicz, who’s as irrelevant as humanly possible considering he only had 314 ab’s. And you ignored the fact that Youkilis is only 28, played hurt last season, and was one of the best leadoff men in baseball in terms of getting on base.

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 4:37 pm
  • I’m going to repeat this: It’s something I said when it was revealed that Matsuzaka’s rights were won by the Red Sox, and two days later JD Drew opted out of his contract –
    There’s something fishy between Matsuzaka, Boras, Drew, and the Red Sox.
    Give more to us here, and we’ll take a little less there. It’s the only logical explanation to a very low contract on Matsuzuaka contract. All this stuff was just posturing, and both sides knew it all too well.

    Brad December 13, 2006, 4:37 pm
  • locklandsf, should we not assume that papi will be in the lineup until he digs in because his heartbeat can sound like a bjork remix?
    i think that’s an exaggeration.
    pavano is closer to the level of mystery you offer up.

    Yankee Fan In Boston December 13, 2006, 4:39 pm
  • Bashed? Saying you have a poor track record is bashing?? Sensitive.
    He owns his skill set, HR’s dont magically appear.

    Triskaidekaphobia December 13, 2006, 4:39 pm
  • “Bashed? Saying you have a poor track record is bashing?? Sensitive.
    He owns his skill set, HR’s dont magically appear.”
    Players never hit for more power as they enter their prime and get healthy? That’s news to me…

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 4:42 pm
  • man, there sure is a common theme on this thread:
    YANKEE FANS ARE PISSED!
    Why? Because we got a front line starter for fourth starter money? Because Theo has once again proved to be untouchable in negotiations? Why all the anger here? It’s good for baseball, the Red Sox, and the Yakees. It lights a fire with both clubs. Why so mad?
    I think it’s becuase they know if the shoe had been on NY’s shoes, Boras would have raked them over the coals for what would have resulted in a much larger contract for the kid.
    I heart Theo.
    Oh, Wakefield is just as good as Pettitte at this time. Both are quality, middle of the road starters who happen to lay eggs or dominate from time to time. The comparisons are pretty good between them.
    Oh Nevermind! I forgot Pettite was an ace now that he’s back in the AL:)

    Brad December 13, 2006, 4:42 pm
  • Trisk, you said Julio Lugo was a hole because Edgar Renteria and Alex Gonzalez were failures — despite the fact that Alex Gonzalez was not a failure! That’s illogical to the extreme.
    How is that NOT bashing?

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 4:43 pm
  • Not pissed here.

    attackgerbil December 13, 2006, 4:45 pm
  • “Oh, Wakefield is just as good as Pettitte at this time. Both are quality, middle of the road starters who happen to lay eggs or dominate from time to time. The comparisons are pretty good between them.”
    I don’t really agree with that…I think Pettitte could well be a solid No. 3, as I’ve said, while Wake really isn’t much more than a 4-5 at this point. But there’s a chance Pettitte underperforms or gets hurt, just like there’s a chance Wake exceeds expectations or gets hurt…why are we comparing them again?

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 4:45 pm
  • grasping….at….st…raws…
    need..something…to…shit…on….
    ha. The story here is that the Red Sox offense is significantly better, and so is their rotation. Why is that a question. And, since we don’t play NY 162 times per year, I could care less about the “holes” the Red Sox have and the Yankees don’t.
    Both sides of the ball are now dangerous. Period. Get a closer, and let’s start playing!

    Brad December 13, 2006, 4:47 pm
  • someone above said that Pettite was worlds ahead of Wake, when in reality, he isn’t. A slot in a rotation, yes. Worlds, no.

    Brad December 13, 2006, 4:48 pm
  • “I think it’s becuase they know if the shoe had been on NY’s shoes, Boras would have raked them over the coals for what would have resulted in a much larger contract for the kid.”
    what is that based upon?
    there’s no way of knowing what would’ve happened if the yankees had won the bidding…
    …except that their bid would’ve been lower, which could be an indication that the yankees might not have overspent.

    Yankee Fan In Boston December 13, 2006, 4:48 pm
  • 4th starter money if you somehow missed the 51 mil it takes to sign him..

    Lar December 13, 2006, 4:49 pm
  • I’d still place my bets on the Yankees winning the division. Like the last 9 years.
    You absolutely need a bullpen when you have two 40-year-olds in your rotation, and a closer-to-unproven-starter who had elbow trouble at the end of last year.
    The Sox have made absolutely no progress in this area, arguably their worst hole last year. In fact, with Papelbon in the rotation, it is now one of the worst bullpens in the major leagues, bar maybe, maybe, the Royals. Maybe.
    This is what keeps me optimistic as a Yankees fan that Theo Epstein, armed though he is with a seemingly bottomless pit of Papa John’s money, still just doesn’t get it.

    Andrew December 13, 2006, 4:49 pm
  • Do we have to go over this every time?
    None of us will ever know what the other teams bid on Matsuzaka.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2006, 4:50 pm
  • I agree with Brad (even though I raised the possibility first, even before Drew was signed *cough*) that for whatever reason, the Sox got a bonus on Matsu in return for taking the extra year on Drew.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 4:50 pm
  • I like the possibility of getting Mike Gonzalez for closer, though apparently the Sox and Yanks are both fighting for that one.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 4:51 pm
  • I said “a history of FA SS being busts” never did I say failure. Was E-Rent NOT a bust, did he meet your expectations? Were you really happy with Gonzo’s offense last season? I am not bashing, only stating facts.
    I can HONESTLY say on all things holy, I am not pissed, why should we be? You outbid both the Yankees and all the other ML teams. Why would I or any Yankees fan care how much you signed him for? Do we have a history of being penny pinchers? I wouldn’t care if he was making .10 cents. Enjoy your day, that’s why I said smile on.
    Wakefield’s BPV is 35
    Pettitte’s BPV is 64
    A single value that describes a player’s overall raw skill level. This is more useful than any traditional statistical gauge to track player performance trends and project future statistical output. The actual BPV formula combines and weights several BPIs. For Pitchers, the formula combines the individual raw skills of power, command, the ability to keep batters from reaching base, and the ability to prevent long hits, all characteristics that are unaffected by most external team factors.
    Right again!

    Triskaidekaphobia December 13, 2006, 4:52 pm
  • I’d still place my bets on the Yankees winning the division. Like the last 9 years
    ya think? Breaking News: A Yankee fan has bet that the Yankees win the AL East. He bases this on the current bullpen situation of the Red Sox, who at the current time, still know that it’s only DECEMBER.
    Guys, the season isn’t starting tomorrow. There is still lots of time to get all these “holes” filled. You guy’s crack me up with your projections based on December lineups. When was the last time there were absolutely no moves made between December and April?

    Brad December 13, 2006, 4:53 pm
  • We have to keep going over this because Brad keeps baiting..
    d1 – I’m a fan of Youk (who I consider the same mold of a player as Nick Johnson, who I liked quite a bit) but even if he doubles his 13 HR he will “only” have 26 HR. That’s light hitting for a 1B, the “power” position. Not that they’re short on it..

    Lar December 13, 2006, 4:54 pm
  • “Because Theo has once again proved to be untouchable in negotiations?”
    theo epsteinbrenner has been inflating his team’s payroll to steinbrennerian heights.
    brian cashman made moves to slash payroll and acquire young power arms. he cut payroll by $15M, then signed a pitcher who has had success in NY, is above league average, and supposedly will help school the youngsters later in the season for $16M.

    Yankee Fan In Boston December 13, 2006, 4:54 pm
  • A-Gonw as not a bust, and it still makes no sense to say that because two other players at the same position were busts, this one also will be a bust and/or hole. Completely illogical and, um, wrong … again.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 4:54 pm
  • Oh really Brad? Tell me, where is this magical bullpen the Sox will suddenly have come April?
    Will Craig Hansen go back in time and learn how to pitch in the Major Leagues before making his debut? Will they clone Jonathan Papelbon 5 times?
    Face it. When you’re looking to trade for Mike Gonzalez as your last resort to even start making a major league bullpen, you’re grasping at straws. The Sox bullpen sucks, plain and simple.

    Andrew December 13, 2006, 4:56 pm
  • Right again!
    Except Wakefield has absolutely been nothing but reliable (up till this year, when he broke a rib), wins 10-15 games every single year and absolutely dominates the New York Yankees.
    Like I said, Pettite doens’t really have anything on him. Both are good. Neither is great less a few times a year.
    Why is this an argument? Should I pull some anomoly stat out of the BP book to back up my argument? Jeez.

    Brad December 13, 2006, 4:56 pm
  • Everybody…
    Ice cream
    Friday
    A cool breeze on a summer day
    Friends and loved ones
    Roy Hobbs’s homer hitting the lights
    Puppies and kittens playing together
    Shhh, it’ll be all right. Don’t worry, there’s gonna be a baseball season and we’ll all have good pitchers and good position players.

    Devine December 13, 2006, 4:57 pm
  • Doesn’t Pettitte also “absolutely dominates” the Sox? Someone posted the vs team stats a few days back..
    But you got to be kidding me if you rather have Wakefield over AP..

    Lar December 13, 2006, 4:58 pm
  • He hit .255 with an OBP of .298 with 1 SB and 50 RBI’s…..that’s what you expected? I don’t care how good your defense is you cannot tell me as a fan that you are happy with that.
    In addition NOBODY is saying Lugo will be a bust, I am only saying that Apparently playing SS in BOSTON is pretty difficult if the past 2 have not lived up to expectations.
    Yeah, I am wrong.

    Triskaidekaphobia December 13, 2006, 4:59 pm
  • “That’s light hitting for a 1B, the “power” position. Not that they’re short on it..”
    I know…but my point was that they haven’t really expected the prototypical 1B performance out of him. If his job is to get on base, and you’re getting Manny-Ortiz in the heart of the lineup already anyway…who cares if his slg. is a little down?

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 4:59 pm
  • Oh really Brad? Tell me, where is this magical bullpen the Sox will suddenly have come April?
    Dude, how the fuck should I know? It’s December! Can you see into the future? Are you saying that the Red Sox don’t have the ability to trade for bullpen pieces? Really? Are you thinking before spewing today? There are still plenty of moves to be made for all the teams. Jesus, the winter meeting just friggin ended.
    I don’t actually think they need a “magical” bullpen, although one would be nice, but why so harsh on the possibility that the Red Sox don’t make moves to improve it? Oh right, I forgot you can see the future.
    Give me a mother-fecking break, Andrews. You’ve done nothing but shit on the whole day today, and troll around looking for fight to pick. Grow up. Magical Bullpen indeed. How the fuck do we know what’s happening?

    Brad December 13, 2006, 5:00 pm
  • Just a comment, the Yankees don’t exactly have a ‘power-hitting’ first baseman at this time. Recall that Giambi will be manning DH full-time because yes, he’s that horrendous at defense.

    Andrew December 13, 2006, 5:00 pm
  • Brad – when you gamble, you gamble with what you know, and reasonable “implied odds” on what’s going to happen.. that’s the point.
    The Sox can easily get Saito + a bunch of random bullpen dudes. And they can easily not.

    Lar December 13, 2006, 5:02 pm
  • There’s something fishy between Matsuzaka, Boras, Drew, and the Red Sox.
    I agree. The holdout, the waiting to the last minute, the dramatic plane ride (where is the video of Boras and DM speeding to catch the plane as the engines are starting). It was all a show for people to think Boras was doing his job. Well he failed in my mind. He did not do what was best for his client , something he always has done in the past.
    And for the closer issue, I think the cardinals released an outfield Rick Ankiel.

    Seth December 13, 2006, 5:02 pm
  • But you got to be kidding me if you rather have Wakefield over AP
    Did you pull that out of thin air? Where did I say that?

    Brad December 13, 2006, 5:05 pm
  • As far as Youkilis is concerned, let’s all remember that he was born and raised a third baseman, an OBP machine, and both Jewish and Greek. Well. The third baseman part is what’s most important to my argument. Honestly, could the Red Sox get more power from the 1B position? Maybe. Could they get it this offseason? Could the Yankees? Look at who’s out there. Rich Aurillia could have had(of course he’s signed now) a legitimate claim to being the best 1B option on the market in terms of offensive power. That, if you’re just tuning in, is sad.
    Anyway, my guess is that the Red Sox will move Youkilis back to 3B after Lowell leaves anyway, where his .280/15-20HR/75-80 RBI + .400 OBP will at least make him middle of the pack for his position, if not better. I don’t know. I hate positional arguments. Wily Mo, Manny, Papi, and Drew to a lesser extent are going to come up with plenty of power. I don’t give a %$*& where it comes from.

    QuoSF December 13, 2006, 5:05 pm
  • Is this not a site for Yankees fans and Sox fans, why is discussing both of their rosters picking fights? Yes you signed a pitcher today, that’s fantastic, so that means we can only say things that paint your team in a positive light. I have not ONCE been confontational nor have I been mean spirited. I am only stating facts.
    Yes, you are right the Yankees are without a 1B, BUT they don’t have OFFENSIVE holes eslewhere. Everything is is a given. My point was the Sox have some unknowns (See above). Relax deep breath.

    Triskaidekaphobia December 13, 2006, 5:06 pm
  • And for the closer issue, I think the cardinals released an outfield Rick Ankiel.
    ————–
    We dont need a 9th inning merry-go-round

    TJ Sox Fan December 13, 2006, 5:07 pm
  • This is the perfect place to imagine a Sox bull pen. Why not?
    I hope it will be Timlin, Taverez and Byoung Kim. Brad, I am sure you have some ideas as well.

    Seth December 13, 2006, 5:08 pm
  • Back to topic,
    MATSUZAKA HAS ENTERED MASSACHUSETTS!!!!

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 5:09 pm
  • I think its still highly probable that Boston could end up with Adrian Gonzalez from SD or Loney or LaRoche from Los Angeles before spring training if they add GOnzalez or Loney Youk moves back to third if its LaRoche Youk stays at 1st. Either way I see Lowell going elsewhere if the a Manny deal ever gets done returning a 1B or 3B to them.

    TJ Sox Fan December 13, 2006, 5:10 pm
  • Brad, I’ve commented about…twice. My name’s Andrew.
    There’s enough joy of Sox fans to satisfy you, I’m simply being the usual antagonistic Yankee fan. I don’t know why you’re so worked up about this, unless you know I’m right. Tell me who the Sox can trade for. Tell me who the Sox even have that they can trade for actual bullpen help.
    You know why they haven’t made moves for bullpen help, their most gaping hole? They can’t. Or well, they could, but apparently they’re being their usual schizophrenic selves, way overspending on guys like Lugo and Drew and penny-pinching on Gagne, and Dotel. While it’s true that rarely good bullpen help arises through free agency, you’d think the Sox would have jumped at the chance to get closers who have had dominating seasons, and are raring to go after coming back from injury. Guess not.
    The other thing is, most teams actually have a base bullpen to work on. Most teams people pay attention to, anyway. The Sox have absolutely, absolutely nothing. The only glimmer of hope is that Craig Hansen proves that, in fact, he’s not actually a crappy douchebag who tries and fails to intimidate hitters by raising his head slowly and glaring at them (I laughed so hard when I saw him do that, who is he kidding). Or maybe Mike Timlin forgets he is in his 40s for one more year. I think that’s it. Lots of teams build off proven, reliable guys. The Sox don’t have anyone like that at all. I seriously wouldn’t be surprised at all for the Sox’s bullpen to post another 5.00+ ERA next season. C’mon, you know it’s true.

    Andrew December 13, 2006, 5:10 pm
  • I won’t try to argue the Sox bullpen, as it stands, has holes, question marks, and unproven talent. Timlin, Tavarez, Delcarmen, Hansen, Okajima, Breslow, et al, are not exactly what dreams(dreams of championships) are made of. This would have been a difficult area to improve in a prudent way.
    Example: It’s been reported that Matsuzaka’s contract pays him $8M/yr. Danys Baez signed a contract for $6M/yr. to pitch for our misguided friends in Baltimore. We need a bullpen, but we don’t need mediocrity at those prices.

    QuoSF December 13, 2006, 5:11 pm
  • please don’t forget lester, who now moves into to middle relief role and spot starter.

    sf rod December 13, 2006, 5:11 pm
  • “I have not ONCE been confontational nor have I been mean spirited. I am only stating facts.”
    “YF’s let them have their moment. Mussina, Wang, Johnson, Pettitte and whoever fills in the 5 is NOTHING to be ashamed of. With an unproven 2Bman, a light hitting 1Bman, a fragile RF, a history of FA SS being busts and NO closer, I would say the Sox have more holes then the Yankees. But smile on RSN, you have your man.”
    OK I see what you were trying to say, but that was pretty fricken confrontational, and fairly mean-spirited. You did call our 1B a hole and criticize the SS because (one of) his predecessors tanked. Maybe you didn’t mean it that way, but that’s the way it came out…

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 5:11 pm
  • “Like I said, Pettite doens’t really have anything on him. Both are good. Neither is great less a few times a year.”
    So err, what does this mean?

    Lar December 13, 2006, 5:11 pm
  • We have a light hitting first baseman because he’s NOT a first baseman, he moved there to fill a need and filled it very well.
    Also, I think we are pretty set with power next year assuming we keep Manny.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2006, 5:12 pm
  • Tell me who the Sox can trade for. Tell me who the Sox even have that they can trade for actual bullpen help.
    Youre right. A terrible young pitching staff, a great (AAA) second baseman. Coco crisp. WMP. All parts they could very well move. But, I’m sure you’re right about them not making a move because they can’t. Or, and I’m going to go out on a limb here, they’ve been busy for the past month locking up the prize of the offseason.

    Brad December 13, 2006, 5:13 pm
  • Andrew, I’ll agree with you as far as Gagne goes. I thought he was worth the risk. Dotel was a failure as a closer in Houston. He was not dominant. He was an A+ setup man, but could not handle the closer role as well for whatever reason. Glad they passed on Dotel/got out-bid by the Royals. Kinda wish they had put up the money for Gagne.

    QuoSF December 13, 2006, 5:14 pm
  • Henrys plane is scheduled to leave for FLorida this evening probably to bring Henry to Boston for the forthcoming presentation of Matsuzaka to the local media.
    Also not sure if this was mentioned here, but has anyone noticed that Henrys plane was diverted to California the other day from an initial course that put them in Houston?

    TJ Sox Fan December 13, 2006, 5:14 pm
  • So what’s wrong with an A+ setup man? I would think they’d be trying to muster all the help they can get.

    Andrew December 13, 2006, 5:15 pm
  • I would take Wake over AP every time and twice on Sunday, an AL East vet vs. an AL East refugee returning from 3 years in the NL.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2006, 5:16 pm
  • Gagne, and Dotel
    Guy, I know you’re joking here. Two guys with exactly twenty or so appearances in the last 250 games? Yeah, they’d be great pickups.
    Again, don’t you think Boston has been pretty busy with other stuff? Shady deal with Boras? Lugo? Flying to California?:)

    Brad December 13, 2006, 5:16 pm
  • “they’ve been busy for the past month locking up the prize of the offseason”
    Funny, they seemed to have enough free time to sign a starting right fielder and shortstop to long-term deals.

    Andrew December 13, 2006, 5:17 pm
  • Nothing wrong with an A+ setup man. All reports pointed to him wanting a team’s assurance that he would have first crack at their closer job. No thanks.

    QuoSF December 13, 2006, 5:17 pm
  • starting RFer was no doubt part of the process with Boras and Matsuzaka. Lugo was a given, and easy to do.

    Brad December 13, 2006, 5:19 pm
  • Why is stating that we should be proud of our 5 mean spirited? As for pointing out holes, that was a counterpoint to the comments made on your dominant starting rotation. Point being you have the edge in rotation (even though we are no slouch) and we have the (Yes I see the comments now) advantage on offense. Varitek or Posada, tie. A-Rod or Lowell, A-Rod. Jeter or Lugo, Jeter. Cano or Pedroia, Cano. Youk or Phillips, Youk. Manny or Matsui, Manny. Damon or Crisp, Damon. Drew or Abreu, Abreu. Ortiz or Giambi, Ortiz.

    Triskaidekaphobia December 13, 2006, 5:21 pm
  • “Tell me who the Sox can trade for. Tell me who the Sox even have that they can trade for actual bullpen help.”
    Otsuka, Chad Cordero, Gonzalez, and Torres are the best known possibilities. X-Factors include guys like Taylor Tankersley, Travis Bowyer, and Kameron Loe.
    Crisp, Dave Murphy, and WMP have been mentioned as possible centers for a trade for those guys. But no, you’re totally right, it’s almost impossible for Boston to find bullpen help…
    Also impossible: That Edgar Martinez, Devern Hansack, Manny Delcarmen, Kyle Snyder, Craig Hansen, Danny Bard, Bryce Cox, or Clay Buchholz will either improve from last year or join the bullpen this season and produce. Truth is, you can never really tell before the season starts who in the minors is going to step up.
    PS: Dotel has always had a lot of trouble against lefties and sucked for NY last year; he will not be a top-tier closer this year. I also thought Gagne was a good risk, but $8MM for a guy who hasn’t been healthy for 2 years and won’t throw off a mound for you? That’s retarded.

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 5:21 pm
  • Lockland – enjoy your 40 year old coming off a rib injury!

    Lar December 13, 2006, 5:21 pm
  • Schilling likely to be very good? Wakefield? Yeah, okay. Paul, not only are you a complete blind shill for the Sox and everything the front office does, your attitude when people disagree with you is horrible. Loved your little dig at Pinto yesterday for saying Boras was playing the Sox like a violin too, you really got him there. The Sox scored a nice player at a nice price. They’re still not as good as the Yankees–I would guess by about ten wins–so I don’t really care too much, save for the excitement of seeing what the guy can do.

    jm December 13, 2006, 5:22 pm
  • Ribs heal and knucklers age well.
    AP’s no sping chicken and he’s been pitching in AAAA ball for 3 years.
    I still take Wake.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2006, 5:25 pm
  • Earlier I was called out for not being factual, where are the facts that support Tim Wakfield being better then AP? Are only Sox fans allowed to make statements that don’t require backing?

    Triskaidekaphobia December 13, 2006, 5:27 pm
  • jm, you did an excellent job discrediting yourself with your first two sentences. Did my job for me. Thanks.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 5:28 pm
  • I would take Pettitte over Wakefield, but I will always like Wake better than Pettitte.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 5:30 pm
  • “Earlier I was called out for not being factual, where are the facts that support Tim Wakfield being better then AP? Are only Sox fans allowed to make statements that don’t require backing?”
    For the record…we don’t all feel that way. Anyway, here’s something to laugh about…according to Edes, someone told Nick Cafardo that during the Matsuzaka negotiations Boras tried to convince Theo and Co. that they should sign Chan Ho Park to close for them. Comedy, yes?

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 5:31 pm
  • “For the record…we don’t all feel that way.” I meant that we don’t all think Wake will be better then Pettitte. I agree with Paul on this one.

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 5:31 pm
  • sorry i’m late…how come i wasn’t invited to the pissing contest…
    both teams will be good this year, just like they always are…i think we’ve learned that it doesn’t matter as much who you start the season with, it’s how you make the mid-season adjustments to non-performance, injury, matchups…both teams had some injury issues last year that tested their ability to bring in replacements that could perform at the necessary level…this year probably won’t be any different…
    both teams have holes they need to focus on now…yep, the sox don’t have a closer, but i’m more than a little worried about mo’s inability to finish the season…
    both teams need a backup catcher, but i’m wondering why the sox wouldn’t just pick up the best backup available without regard to catching wake’s knuckler…varitek is a gg-er, let him catch wake, and just give him the day off when one of the other guys pitches…
    i also want to congratulate the sox fans on the [apparent] dm signing…it took less than i thought, and less than all the hoopla and drama suggested, but i’m not sure i buy brad’s conspiracy theory…anyway, enjoy…

    dc December 13, 2006, 5:32 pm
  • jm spewing some of his predictions as well. Why again isn’t Schilling going to be good? His track record? Nope. His age? Look around, buddy. Mussina? Johnson? We’re both getting old where it really matters.
    Also, I don’t think anyone said Wakefield is better than AP, just that they’re basically the same guy. Neither is a dominant force, and both are privy to laying an egg every now and then. No reason to shit on Wake though, he’s been pretty damn good for pretty damn long.

    Brad December 13, 2006, 5:32 pm
  • Does anyone know where to get a list of the complete non-tendered players can be found? Not ESPN, it’s incomplete.

    Triskaidekaphobia December 13, 2006, 5:33 pm
  • 2004-06
    Pettitte (National League)
    37-26 3.55 ERA
    Wakefield (American League)
    35-33 4.68 ERA
    now some notable NL to AL pitchers from 2005 to 2006
    Beckett +1.63 era +1 win
    Burnett +.54 era -2 wins
    Lidle +.40 era
    Brazelton +4.39 era -1 win
    Byrd +1.14 era -2 wins
    Loaiza +1.12 era -1 win
    This probably puts Pettitte in equal standing with Wakefield in the AL in 2007.

    TJ Sox Fan December 13, 2006, 5:33 pm
  • I’ve been accused as being a Sox apologist/fan in a Yankees jersey before, and I will likely again after this post. So be it.
    The Sox rotation, ON PAPER, is formidable. Epstein has made many good moves so far to make that happen, and he’s managed to improve the offense at the same time. I have a hard time questioning any of them, though I think there is more general optimism about JD Drew than I think is warranted, and the Damon comparisons made on both sides of the argument are non-sensical to me, as fashionable as it seems to be to try to draw corollaries. However, outside of that move, it’s difficult for me to fault anything so far. Matsuzaka? Brilliant maneuver. Lugo? Ignoring off-field issues, a solid signing. Fan fave Doug Mirabelli? Bring him back, sure. Just without the ridiculous high-speed escort theatrics, thank you very much.
    There’s no reason to believe the Sox FO won’t cover the closer situation. Who, outside of the diehards, knew anything about Papelbon prior to ’06? I think you have to give Theo the benefit of the doubt. Middle relief is a tough one, but it’s tough for every team. It’s the toughest segment of any team’s pitching staff to have a good handle on prior to the season, and there is a dearth of talent available this year, but that’s just like every year regarding that role.
    I’m trying to stay out of the comparison debate that is going on regarding relative worth of starters between NY and Boston. It’s quite pointless, as good as navel-scratching can feel. I will say that the biggest concern I have as a Yankees fan regarding the rotation is that there is exactly one pitcher in the rotation in whom I have faith in as a big-game post-season starter, and he’s years removed from that success: Andy Pettitte. Wang’s victory against Detroit is too small a sample set.

    attackgerbil December 13, 2006, 5:34 pm
  • Damn, dc, I agree with every word you said.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 5:34 pm
  • The 28 players who became free agents when their teams did not offer 2007 contracts before Tuesday’s midnight EST deadline:
    American League
    Angels: Jason Bulger, RHP.
    A’s: Jerome Williams, RHP.
    Mariners: Joel Pineiro, RHP.
    Orioles: David Newman, OF; Aaron Rakers, RHP; Todd Williams, RHP.
    Rangers: Mike Wood, RHP.
    Rays: Damon Hollins, OF.
    Royals: Scott Dohmann, RHP; Brandon Duckworth, RHP.
    Tigers: Alexis Gomez, OF.
    Twins: Luis Rodriguez, INF; Willie Eyre, RHP.
    White Sox: Eduardo Sierra, RHP.
    Yankees: Aaron Guiel, OF.
    National League
    Braves: Marcus Giles, 2B; Chris Reitsma, RHP.
    Cardinals: Rick Ankiel, OF; Jorge Sosa, RHP.
    Cubs: Jose Reyes, C; Adam Harben, RHP.
    Dodgers: Toby Hall, C; Jayson Werth, OF.
    Mets: Victor Zambrano, RHP.
    Padres: Jon Knott, OF.
    Reds: Brandon Claussen, LHP; Miguel Perez, C.
    Rockies: Chin-hui Tsao, RHP

    TJ Sox Fan December 13, 2006, 5:35 pm
  • Trisk, look at their career stats, they are pretty close in most of the important things, BAA against favors Wake by a good margin, WHIP is even, ERA as AP ahead a bit…
    BB is tough because he’s a knuckler, they walk more people.
    Wake also got NO run support last year.
    Regardless, AP has had 3 years of NL time, while during the same 3 years Wake has been in the AL East.
    I’m still going Wake.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2006, 5:35 pm
  • BEDFORD, Mass. — The plane carrying Daisuke Matsuzaka, Scott Boras, and the Red Sox contingent has landed at Hanscom Air Force base.
    Tom Werner, Scott Boras, Theo Epstein, Larry Lucchino, and Daisuke Matsuzaka were all seen leaving the plane and getting into trucks.
    The caravan is going by police escort to Mass. General Hospital, presumably for Matsuzaka’s physical, which is required before any deal is finalized.

    TJ Sox Fan December 13, 2006, 5:37 pm
  • Correction, edit out “by a good margin”
    “BAA against favors Wake”

    LocklandSF December 13, 2006, 5:38 pm
  • Hahaha, another police escort. I love it.

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 5:39 pm
  • wait, all those pitcher were non-tendered? Where the hell are the Red Sox going to get pitching help? Anyone? Are there any pitcher available who may be good bullpen guys? Any trades available anywhere? DAMMIT! The season is starting! Hurry!

    Brad December 13, 2006, 5:39 pm
  • Why won’t Schilling be good? Maybe because he’s DECLINING at this age. Mussina just had one of his best years in a long time. Barring 2005, Schilling just had his worst year since 1994. A strong factor in determining whether a pitcher is going to be good again is looking at trends. Trends say that Schilling has a much lesser chance of being good next year than Mussina.
    And Wakefield is, seriously, not the ‘same guy’ as Andy Pettitte at all. Pettitte has in him the potential to flat-out dominate. Wakefield? Meh. He’s a mediocre pitcher with a slightly above-average ceiling. True, he’s gonna pitch till he dies of old-age, but we’re talking about single-season performance here. Pettitte is much more than that.

    Andrew December 13, 2006, 5:39 pm
  • And I think that’s all most of the sfs here were saying, AG. We were trying to have our fun with DM — mentioning that the Sox had one of the best rotations in the league with the addition of Matsuzaka — and BAM! The rotation sucks, it’s worse than the Yanks, they have holes in the pen and all over the offense, they do’nt have a closer.
    Hey, we took the bait, so be it. But it still doesn’t change the fact that this is a great day for the Red Sox, with huge promise, one we could look back on years from now and say, “That was the moment they put the final pirce of their core in place.”
    I still remember the day the Sox traded for and signed Pedro. I don’t want to make unfair comparisons or set expectations too high, but I view the impact Matsuzaka COULD have as similar to the one that Pedro did have. And that is exciting.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 5:40 pm
  • Thanks for the list.
    Yankees – Hall ?
    Sox – Tsao ? He could close until Hansen is ready. Cheap option.
    You guys can say what you want about the NL, you are right it’s a weaker hitting league, with one fewer hitter, but it’s still pitching. I am done arguing about AP, he is a favorite of mine and I have zero reason to believe come season’s end he won’t have better numbers then Wake. Think of it this way if hell froze over and Cash called Theo and said I will give you AP for Wake…..Do you honestly ( I mean look into your heart, gun to your head) think Theo would turn that deal down? That’s my point.

    Triskaidekaphobia December 13, 2006, 5:41 pm
  • the most likely target to close will be Otsuka from Texas he had 32 saves last year and would fit well in the new Japan theme we have going, Texas would jump at Coco Crisp but I would think after locking up Kenny Lofton they would prolly prefer David Murphy who they can ease in then put him in CF full time next season.

    TJ Sox Fan December 13, 2006, 5:42 pm
  • Yeah, D1. The Sox certainly have a flair for the dramatic. Now that Sheff is gone, the Yankees off-season is like some stoned sixth year english major beat-poet reading to bongos, where the Sox plays out like a Greek drama, complete with deus ex machina.

    attackgerbil December 13, 2006, 5:43 pm
  • Lockland – Wake’s been average at best the last three years – so you can compare their careers before that (and it’s comparable in length).
    Of course, that doesn’t help predicting next year, since we’re took out 3 years, but if you’re going by history..

    Lar December 13, 2006, 5:43 pm
  • Maybe because he’s DECLINING at this age.
    Best big game pitcher on either staff, and you know it. If he’s healthy, he’s as dominant as anyone in the leauge, so there’s no sense in speculation, here.
    Pettitte is much more than that.
    When? Half a year for the past four years? Guy, you have to come with more than that. Look at the numbers, they are very, very similar. You can’t just say that guys like Mussina and Pettite are going to be so much better because of trends or bias. Schilling is a machine of a pitcher, and Wake is good. Pettitte is good, and so is Mussina (the best on the NY staff, hands down). All, barring injury, are not pitchers anyone wants to face.
    Also, why is the trend argument good for Schilling, and not good for Wang?

    Brad December 13, 2006, 5:43 pm
  • <-----Never said Sox rotation sucks, I will say at this moment it's better and has more upside.

    Triskaidekaphobia December 13, 2006, 5:43 pm
  • “Trends say that Schilling has a much lesser chance of being good next year than Mussina.”
    Much lesser huh?
    2006 K/9= 8.07, compared to career 8.73
    2006 K/bb = 6.54, career = 4.38
    2006 WHIP = 1.22, career = 1.13
    Two stats got worse last year: H/9 and HR/9. In terms of HR’s, Schilling was slightly unlucky, giving up a hr/f of %13.1. In terms of hits…I don’t really know how to tell how many he should have given up, but his gb% is higher then it was in 04, and his ld% is lower; looks like he got a little unlucky.
    Yeah, it was one of the worst ERA’s he’s ever had…but there’s a lot more going on then that.

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 5:45 pm
  • Trisk: re: Hall, hell yes.

    attackgerbil December 13, 2006, 5:45 pm
  • TJ Sox Fan December 13, 2006, 5:45 pm
  • Trends say that Schilling has a much lesser chance of being good next year than Mussina.
    What trends? What are you comparing this to? What data did you get when researching this? What likeables did you use? I need names, teams, and ages in this trend spreadsheet you’re using.

    Brad December 13, 2006, 5:46 pm
  • I think you guys are hoping to get the AP you remember and I think you’re going to be let down.
    At least we know what we get with Wake and accept for what it is.
    He gets even a little run support last year and things look totally different.

    LocklandSF December 13, 2006, 5:46 pm
  • prefer David Murphy
    absolutely, positively, no way. I saw Murphy play a lot, and his upside is huge. Of course I’m bias, but I’m never of the ilk that you give away top prospects for bullpen guys – they’re too flaky.

    Brad December 13, 2006, 5:48 pm
  • Brad – I think it just needs a downgrade from “likely to be very good” to “have a shot to be very good”.
    Age does things to people.. just look at RJ, who actually came off a very good season, finishing 2nd in Cy Young (to one Roger Clemens) right before the Yanks. Sure, a change AL East can’t help his numbers, but he was simply not as dominating.
    And presumably, Schilling’s stuff isn’t going to get any better, while Wang’s ceiling is (in theory) not reached yet – he could learn new pitches and work on them, etc.

    Lar December 13, 2006, 5:49 pm
  • Toby Hall would be an excellent pickup for either team. Does he want to sit though? Being a backup catcher may not appeal to him too much, but I know this: He, along with Lugo, have killed Curt Schilling.
    Lugo has seven HR’s against Schilling.

    Brad December 13, 2006, 5:50 pm
  • all team loyalties aside, i have tickets for the sox 2nd game of the season and i’m hoping that matsuzaka gets slotted into the #2 spot in the order…
    is that wrong?

    Yankee Fan In Boston December 13, 2006, 5:51 pm
  • Okay, I’m out. I’ll be back later, after dinner.
    Have at it guys.

    Brad December 13, 2006, 5:51 pm
  • Lockland – would run support save his 4.6 ERA?

    Lar December 13, 2006, 5:52 pm
  • “Best big game pitcher on either staff, and you know it.”
    Oh please. Randy Johnson used to be a ‘big game pitcher’ too. That doesn’t mean jack shit, and YOU know it.
    “Also, why is the trend argument good for Schilling, and not good for Wang?”
    What, you mean how Wang improved from last year to this? Are you trying to give our pitcher a compliment? :)
    “At least we know what we get with Wake and accept for what it is.”
    Funny, I’d rather have the potential for 3.50 ERA and maybe get a 4.50 ERA than a definite ERA in the 4s. Not to mention age differences. Wake’s arm might be healthier than mine, but he’s still getting to be an old man. Those ribs don’t hold up like they used to.
    Re: the trend thing. You guys seem to forget that Schilling was all but toast in 2005. Then he finally comes back from injury and has a sub-par year. Meanwhile Mussina was middling around being mediocre, then suddenly has a great year. And you’re telling me their situations are all but equal? Puh-lease. Don’t need stat-heads to figure that one out.

    Andrew December 13, 2006, 5:52 pm
  • Lockland, yeah, that was my concern when they signed Pettitte. Still is. However, I’m hoping NY gets the post July Pettitte from last year as opposed to the pre-July. I am quickly warming to the idea. I think my trepidation is mostly because of the sour taste left in my mouth when he left, though looking at the stats over the past couple years, it’s no slam dunk.

    attackgerbil December 13, 2006, 5:52 pm
  • “And presumably, Schilling’s stuff isn’t going to get any better, while Wang’s ceiling is (in theory) not reached yet – he could learn new pitches and work on them, etc.”
    So could Beckett…heh. (I forget if you’re one of the ones who just plain thinks he sucks or not…)
    And to Brad, Dave Murphy is projected by most to become a solid 4th OF at best, and he is already 25 years old. Ellsbury’s the CF of the future, and if he excells this year in CF, could replace Crisp very quickly…Murphy’s pretty expendable at this point.

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 5:54 pm
  • YFIB: Of course it’s not wrong. It’s going to be the most-covered, hyped, and anticipated MLB game of the season until Bonds starts sniffing around Aaron.

    attackgerbil December 13, 2006, 5:55 pm
  • Lar, Wake’s ERA spiked in the two starts he pitched before going on the DL and the two starts immediately after returning. Take out those, and his ERA is much lower.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 5:56 pm
  • “Then he finally comes back from injury and has a sub-par year.”
    How the fuck is a sub-4 ERA in the AL-east sub-par? Or is it only sub-par for him? Christ…and look at the peripherals; Mussina’s were absolutely fantastic too, but Schilling’s ERA could have just as easily been in the mid-3’s.

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 5:56 pm
  • well Boston would want more then just the pitcher for Murphy but theres a logjam in the OF. Crisp and Drew are signed longterm and the Sox control Pena for a few more years, add in that Ellsbury is in the wings at AAA and theres not much room for Murphy.
    His playing time in September was to showcase his talents in the big leagues to use as trade bait this winter.
    I rather see him staring somewhere else then rotting away at AAA here.

    TJ Sox Fan December 13, 2006, 5:56 pm
  • I was saying sub-par for him, sorry desturbd. Just talking trends.

    Andrew December 13, 2006, 5:58 pm
  • d1 – I think that he’s above average, and that he has the talent – but the rest is up to him, meaning usually being adaptive. Meaning if he tries as hard as people think he should be, he’ll learn and adjust. The upside is there, but hard to ignore a fat 5 ERA last year. He didn’t make those adjustments that he needed (as he was throwing too many fastballs, as far as I know).
    Basically the same analysis for Wang – he had a great year, and while people say he’ll regress toward the norm because of his low K rate – he has a 95 mph fastball, so he can adjust and adapt if/when players adapt to his sinker. I think that he’ll remain a sinkerballer *if it works for him*. If it doesn’t, he’ll evolve.

    Lar December 13, 2006, 5:59 pm
  • “I was saying sub-par for him, sorry desturbd. Just talking trends.”
    Fair enough. That makes sense, then.
    And yeah, Lar, I’m inclined to agree with all of that…except for Boston’s sake, I’m hoping Wang has lots of trouble ‘evolving.’

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 6:02 pm
  • I am not dilussional, I know the AP we have NOW is NOT the AP from the yester years, but he is better than what we had before we signed him.

    Triskaidekaphobia December 13, 2006, 6:04 pm
  • Paul – I stand corrected then. But ya, as others have pointed out, the post-July Andy, and not the “nostaglia Andy” is what (at least rational) YF’s are excited about.
    I personally think it’s moot anyhow, since Wake is 4th or 5th, but unless RJ comes around, AP is probably 3rd. I would love to have Wake feel that #5 spot for the Yanks, but it’s a bit irrational to say that Wake is a better shot than AP.
    By the way, why do they only pay him 4 mil a year?

    Lar December 13, 2006, 6:05 pm
  • Wakefield worked a deal with the Sox in which it is essentially a $4M/year lifetime contract — a series of one-year club opions extending into perpetuity, if I remember the details right from when it was signed before last season.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 6:11 pm
  • “By the way, why do they only pay him 4 mil a year?”
    Because Wake’s the man and never wanted to leave Boston. They basically have him signed to a lifetime contract; he gets $4MM a year for as long as long as Boston wants him to pitch, unless he decides to retire. It’s a succession of 1-year, $4MM team options, and each time one is exercised, another one is automatically added.

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 6:12 pm
  • It’s another reason why Wake is so cool. He obviously was sacrificing future paydays to play with the Sox for as long as they’d have him. Of course Arroyo did the same thing and got screwed. Unlike Arroyo, however, Wakefield has proven that he can win 12-14 games every season until he’s 83. Or thereabouts.

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 6:13 pm
  • Gotta run, myself. Have fun!

    Paul SF December 13, 2006, 6:17 pm
  • why are we arguing wake vs. ap. wake might not even be in the starting 5.
    the thing i take most from todays events, is that the sox FO beat boris at his own game.

    sf rod December 13, 2006, 6:18 pm
  • When’s it official? Tell me when it’s official.

    Devine December 13, 2006, 6:20 pm
  • sf rod: I agree. Direct comparisons in the rotation just don’t make any sense to me. Rosters taken as a whole, sure, but outside of salary negotiations, pitchers are independent of one another, but it’s still fun to do such things, when there’s no ball to actually watch.
    Regarding Boras “getting beaten at his own game”, the math is still a couple years out on that one, in my opinion.

    attackgerbil December 13, 2006, 6:25 pm
  • I’ll backpedal a bit. Direct comparison is interesting when you are actually looking at a scheduled series and can evaluate the actual batter/pitcher match-ups; it is not in the slotting of the rotation.

    attackgerbil December 13, 2006, 6:28 pm
  • i agree ag. pitcher vs. pitcher vs. lineups is fun. but none of us have any idea of what thats gonna look like at this point in time.

    sf rod December 13, 2006, 6:36 pm
  • 220 posts: You’d think this was a late-September game in Fenway with NY.
    Nice indeed.

    Brad December 13, 2006, 7:10 pm
  • 221: I pray to god Theo didn’t drop a roofie in Boras’s coffee, because that is the only way he would give up his prized agent for less than 10 figures a year. This must’ve been brought up before, but is there any news that Seibu has or can give a Matsu-son a care package of, let’s say $10-15MM? Toss me an earfull.

    zrsahai (YF) December 13, 2006, 8:35 pm
  • An mlb official already shot that idea down; if Seibu does toss Matsuzaka anything, it’ll be completely under the table and we’ll probably never hear about it.

    desturbd1 December 13, 2006, 8:38 pm

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