The Bronx Zoo Returns

I think our YF brethren are a bit shell-shocked by the events of the past 24 to 48 hours. A lot of news has come through, so allow me to consolidate into one handy post:

  • Yankees to Joe Torre: "Screw you."
  • Joe Torre to Yankees: "Screw you."
  • Alex Rodriguez to Yankees: "Screw you."
  • Scott Boras to baseball: "Screw you."
  • Baseball to Scott Boras and Alex Rodriguez: "Screw you."
  • Dodgers to Grady Little: "Screw you."
  • Don Mattingly to Yankees: "Screw you."

I think that about covers it.

86 comments… add one

  • You left out Hank Steinbrenner: “If it wasn’t for Me and My Yankees, no one would be screwing anyone. And when we screw you, remember that it’s a privilege.”

    attackgerbil October 30, 2007, 2:10 am
  • piling on
    i think that about covers it

    dc October 30, 2007, 2:17 am
  • Personally, I’ve always preferred “Go f#$% yourself”.
    And, what, no credit for calling the YF shell-shockitude yesterday? :)
    Hang tight, YFs. Last year at this time we were still licking our wounds from having finished in third place. A lot can change in one year!

    Pete October 30, 2007, 7:17 am
  • “…A lot can change in one year!…”
    uh yeah it can, like we [yanks] finish in 3rd and out of the playoffs
    just being dramatic with that comment…actually, i don’t think the yanks are going to be so bad, despite the fact that they have some giant questions: some lingering waste-products, like giambi and pavano; pitching questions, like some are too old, and some may be too inexperienced; oufield questions: what to do with damon; dh questions: we don’t really have one; 3rd base and first base questions: what do we really have there?; and the uncertain status of mo, posada, and pettite…and last but not least a new manager…
    …it’s fun for some sf’s to pile on right now, and i’m ok with that…i had a great time messing with sf’s when dooket was the sox gm, then the sox went on to change ownership, the on-field manager, and sign the boy wonder to replace dookie…seems to have worked out ok…sometimes change is good…and it’s not always clean…
    as for arod’s “firing”, there’s no doubt it leaves a huge stat hole, but there’s no telling how good it might be for team chemistry, and while the media will cook up some other stressors to cause tension for the team, at least we won’t have that one to deal with anymore…

    dc October 30, 2007, 8:34 am
  • It’s good to be king I guess.
    Yesterday it was Pete, today it’s Paul. Nobody is shell-shocked. I know that would be the cherry on the top of the championship sundae, but it’s just not true. If you are referring to the YF’s not posting any stories, that’s out of respect to the Sox. We communicated via email and said we would only post the important issues, as YF did with the Alex issue.
    As for the “Bronx Zoo” comment, isn’t winning a WS enough pleasure for you right now? This team is not in turmoil, you and SF have been trying to sell that for the better part of 2 weeks now. The funny thing is you are getting people here to buy into it and I don’t know how. The sky isn’t falling folks…

    John - YF October 30, 2007, 9:38 am
  • I’m not that worried. We’re the Yankees for heavens sake! We’ll be fine. Hiring Girardi was a great move in my opinion. If Jorge and Mo leave, then they leave. I love them as much as anyone but they won’t be in pinstripes forever! Maybe it’s time for a seismic shift in the Bronx? Maybe it’s exactly what we need? I don’t know about the rest of you YF’s, but I’m pretty sick of losing in the ALDS…

    krueg October 30, 2007, 9:49 am
  • My wife is very close to giving birth to another little Sox Hater, so I don’t have the time to put together a story. But YF’s give this new regime some time. For the first time in a long time we have a core of young players mixed with some veterans that are proven winners, it’s a good mix. Jorge will be back, Mo will be back. Cashman will make some trades and this will all be a distant memory. Again there is no reason to panic.

    John - YF October 30, 2007, 10:02 am
  • Frankly, im enjoying all this quite alot. Big companies, sports teams, and most organizations shake things up all the time. In fact the Red Sox themselves did so after winning in 2004. Things change and if we are going to change lets change big. The sky most certainly is not falling, the bronx isnt burning, and there are no animals running around on the field. We still have the makings of a good team and the resources to be a great team with a few good moves.
    Not to rain on your parade SFs (literally i guess) but there are lots of questions facing the Sox this off season as well. Your team is in great shape but things could happen over the winter that could weaken it, not to mention the decline of older players…

    Sam-YF October 30, 2007, 10:14 am
  • John, you’re making a statement about yourself and applying it to everyone. If I simply follow the links Paul provided, many, many YF’s are all over the map in their reactions – see the comments at Bronx Banter for instance. And from the looks of things it isn’t just yesterday, but the last week or so. Is it surprising that the YF’s are “shell-shocked”? Absolutely not.
    In the span of about one week, they:
    a) “fired” their manager of twelve years and four rings
    b) interviewed three managerial contestants (with phone conferences after each day)
    c) Hired their new manager
    d) Essentially booted a Yankee icon
    e) Watched their closest rivals take another trophy
    f) Lost their best player AND the best player in the game
    That’s quite a week (or so) for a franchise! I’d say I was shell-shocked if it happened to my team.
    My point though is things can change very, very quickly, and with the Sox and Yankees, I expect them to. Nothing is outside of the realm of possibility, and that includes ending the off-season with A-Rod in red and Santana in stripes. It’s a Yankee-Sox (in that order) Universe and the rest of baseball is just living in it.

    Pete October 30, 2007, 10:22 am
  • Bronx Zoo?
    C’mon, Paul. Really? In reading your posts, I know you are better than that.

    rz-yf October 30, 2007, 10:27 am
  • i thought this was funny, but i agree with pete. you can’t lose when you tell someone to “go %@*# yourself.” if you’re mining for comedy, that’s 24 karat, right there.
    there’s a whole lotta shakin’ goin’ on, but as long as the steinbrothers don’t over-react and trade away the top prospects in rush to get some positive back page ink, things should be fine in the bronx.
    hopefully.
    we might have a rebuilding year, and that’s alright with me so long as they avoid pricey long-term deals to aging players.
    that said, please pass the scotch.

    Yankee Fan In Boston October 30, 2007, 10:34 am
  • For this Yanks fan, it’s been a particularly difficult time. While you might argue that Torre’s departure will actually be good for the team, it still is sad that his tenure here has finished. He was there for a lot of good memories. He left in less than ideal circumstances. I don’t care who is to blame. And the A-Rod situation is rather hubling for me since I defended him throughout his stay with the Yanks. The manner in which he left–the timing, the bs excuses proferred by Boras, the refusal to meet face-to-face with Cashman–basically justifies a lot of the stuff said against him. And now I have to see Mattingly in a Dodgers uniform next season! I know it’s an emotional silly reaction but it depresses me. I guess I have taken it for granted that Mo and Jorge will come back, but after these two weeks I am a little less confident. You hear rumblings in the press of tension between Girardi and Jorge. Will Torre lure them away? The point is that I never thought there would be a period in this off-season during which I would be having these doubts.
    And yet I am not all doom and gloom. I think this is an exciting period in Yanks history. We get to find out about how creative and resourceful Cashman is. 2008 looks more and more like a rebuilding year, and that’s fine with me. I rooted for Bobby Meacham for godsakes! Young up-and-coming teams are fun to route for.

    Nick-YF October 30, 2007, 10:36 am
  • Hey, never said I wasn’t a sucker for the easy pun. I think I used it last year during the Torre ridiculousness, too…
    Like Pete said, there’s been a lot of stuff that’s happened over really just two days’ time, and I don’t think being stunned is an unreasonable reaction. Being shell-shocked isn’t the same as thinking the sky is falling, and at any rate, I was using it as a tongue-in-ceek way of guessing why we’d heard so little from the (comoderating) YFs here (I just figured everyone was busy, as happens from time to time).
    I do appreciate the gesture of holding off out of respect to the Sox. I didn’t know that. If only A-Rod and Boras were as classy as the people at YFSF!

    Paul SF October 30, 2007, 10:37 am
  • Also, I agree that using the f-word would have been funnier, but this is a family site, after all…

    Paul SF October 30, 2007, 10:39 am
  • After three years of being booted in the first round, only the most jaded of Yankees fans are ‘shell-shocked.’
    Those of us who are thinking more rationally are actually looking forward to a new era in Yankees baseball.
    I loved Torre as much as the next fan, but you know what? His allegiance to veterans and decisions made around those veterans was starting to take a toll. I think all of the “Torre can’t manage a bullpen” criticisms were bunk because he had no choice as his starting pitching from 2004-current was pretty lousy. But there were simple things like not running Damon when the Yankees had first and third with only one out in Game 4 of the Yanks/Cleveland series. You had Paul Freaking Byrd on the mound who couldn’t hit 90 on the radar if his life depended on it and Damon wasn’t running on the first pitch?
    Of course not. Because Derek Jeter was at the plate.
    I remember reading somewhere a discussion with some scouts who said that Torre is the perfect manager for a team that doesn’t really have holes. He can just keep them working together as a team, throw them out on the field and win games. They said it was a skill to do that and they said they didn’t think the Yankees would have won the World Series in 1999 or 2000 with Torre.
    But they also said that now the Yankees have some holes, there’s some real tactical managing that needs to be done and that’s not Torre’s strength. So Joe Girardi to me was the smart choice instead of the sentimental favorite. You have a guy in Girardi that is respected by the other players and as a catcher, will help immensely in cultivating the the young starters the Yanks will have next year.
    They’re moving back to a direction where big egos are going to be checked at the door, and looking to win where it really counts: on the pitching mound.
    I’ll happily trade not making the playoffs in 2008 to getting some more World Series wins in 2009 and beyond.

    Jay October 30, 2007, 10:44 am
  • This team is not in turmoil, you and SF have been trying to sell that for the better part of 2 weeks now.
    I am not sure I have ever tried to sell that, Trisk. In fact, I have been pretty much non-judgmental about the Yankees and their personnel situation these last few weeks. I have no idea where the Yankees will end up in a few weeks with their free agents, and despite the energetic debate about the managing situation my interest was not in the actual divorce from Torre itself but rather the process of the divorce. I stated that numerous times, apparently to no avail.
    But now I will try to sell it. As for the Yankees and “turmoil” (defined as a state of great commotion, confusion, or disturbance; tumult; agitation; disquiet”) this is semantic – you see turmoil as inherently bad, obviously, or at least feel like someone pointing out the flux is “piling on”. But to me this turmoil doesn’t necessarily mean bad things, and it doesn’t necessarily mean that there won’t be a positive improvement for the Bombers. But it seems to me that the Yankees are most definitely in turmoil: new manager, new control point at ownership level, all-world third baseman opts out of contract, all-world closer and all-star catcher are free agents, lots of young unproven pitchers on the horizon. It’s an exciting time, frankly, and this could all end with a strong, championship-caliber Yankees club. I refuse to make any judgment about whether all this is good or bad for the Yankees until I see how it plays out, and even then I might be wrong in my judgment. I also want to say that the Red Sox’ successes gain nothing from the Yankees’ situation; they are disconnected from each other – I celebrate the Sox’ brilliance, that is all that matters, at least pertaining to the Red Sox (if not this website).
    But turmoil there is in New York, at least by definition, I don’t think there’s any way around addressing that, particularly not at YFvSF.

    SF October 30, 2007, 10:52 am
  • Look at it this way, YF’s: The Sox had to take two steps backward to get to where they are right now. By finishing in third and allowing their kids to mature without trading them away (save the Gagne utter waste), they got stronger. If the Yanks do the same, they’ll be fine especially because they have a strong farm that has only gotten much better in the last year. It’s crazy how much things can change in one year. And Joba, Kennedy and Hughes are very easy to put your hopes on after the glimpses we saw.
    By the way, shell-shocked, to me, simply means “rattled” or “discombobulated”. It’s a crazy time but I certainly don’t think the sky is falling on the Yankees. They’re a strong, wealthy organization and what would make things worse (spend a lot of money AND trade youngsters) is exactly what they seem to be avoiding. If anything, I very excited because I thought the last four or five years was great baseball in the AL East. Now both clubs are transitioning to a new generation that could propel this level of play for another ten years. That’s something we call all look forward to.

    Pete October 30, 2007, 10:58 am
  • Bronx Zoo is way over the top – especially for Day 2 of the Hot Stove season.
    Joe Torre not being asked back – A huge disappointment but it can’t come as a shell shocking surprise given that so many Yankee fans called for him to go all season.
    A-Rod opting out – again, this shouldn’t come as a surprise given that it was the assumption all season long. Opting out of his contract does not mean that he won’t be coming back to the Yankees/does not want to play in NY
    Grady Little? – That’s your nightmare redux Paul
    Matttingly bailing – Why on earth would he stay and work for Girardi?
    As for Yankee fans freaking out, they are probably the same a-holes that booed ARod in 06 and called for Torre’s resignation all year long.
    I think this is all called TRANSITION and not the Bronx Zoo, even though the Steinbrothers’ inexperience in media relations is the source many back-page headlines.

    lp October 30, 2007, 11:12 am
  • Paul, I don’t care how long you’ve been writing for, but ‘turmoil’ has a negative connotation. Don’t try and act like it’s a neutral term and YFs are reading into your so-called objective analysis. Please.

    lp October 30, 2007, 11:15 am
  • I’m surprised at the talk that next year is the rebuilding year. I always thought this year was the Yanks’ rebuilding year, most akin to the Sox’ 2006 (forced to play a lot of rookies as the vets broke down), and the Yanks managed to make the playoffs despite that.

    Paul SF October 30, 2007, 11:16 am
  • Wrong guy, LP. Read again.

    Paul SF October 30, 2007, 11:16 am
  • You guys are all starting to sound alike. Sorry.

    lp October 30, 2007, 11:21 am
  • Paul never used the term “turmoil”. John used it first. Then SF provided the exposition on it’s meaning.
    Me, I can admit that “turmoil” or “shell-shocked” both have negative connotations but only in the sense that no one is ever pleased to be experiencing them. Still, that’s the connotation. The denotation seems pretty clear that they describe a state analogous to what’s happening in Yankeeland. What’s the fans are experiencing is up to them to describe. But the comments on all the blogs give us some sense that negativity is in the air.

    Pete October 30, 2007, 11:23 am
  • lp, technically, torre was indeed asked back, he just didn’t like the offer.
    rodriguez opting out might have been something of a surprise to some, given the “i couldn’t imagine playing anywhere else” statements at the end of the season. but i think most people were surprised with the timing of his announcement, which was staggeringly awful.
    there is a lot going on, but i agree that this is a transition. people will call it what they will, but it is early days. the dust will start to settle soon.

    Yankee Fan In Boston October 30, 2007, 11:25 am
  • i prefer the term flux to turmoil.

    Sam-YF October 30, 2007, 11:32 am
  • No doubt there are lots of SFs (and fans of many other teams as well, we shouldn’t forget) that are enjoying what is going on in New York, without question. But I think, at this site in particular, we should guard against blanket generalizations, and even more so we should guard against accusing specific posters of having said or felt certain things when the words published and archived don’t necessarily corroborate the accusations. I for one am interested in what is going on in New York, but that interest should not be confused with a judgment that it is bad for the Yankees, or a sensation that I am enjoying the “flux”. Right now I care quite a tiny bit, I am still giddy about a championship. My interest will grow every day, I imagine, it’s hot stove time.
    As for “turmoil”, I honestly don’t care what word people use. Flux works for me too. The situation is, uh, developing. Let’s just leave it at “many things are changing”?

    SF October 30, 2007, 11:38 am
  • flux is indeed fun to say.
    flux.
    go flux yourself.
    yeah.
    flux.
    that’s what i’m going with.
    thanks, sam.

    Yankee Fan In Boston October 30, 2007, 11:41 am
  • flux = rad
    anyone?

    Nick-YF October 30, 2007, 11:44 am
  • SF October 30, 2007, 11:47 am
  • > flux
    Cool. Now I can get past the naughty word filters when I write, “The management cabal in Tampa are a bunch of custerflux.”

    attackgerbil October 30, 2007, 11:53 am
  • Flux = a material used in soldering copper pipe.

    Andrews October 30, 2007, 12:51 pm
  • i was going for this definition:
    Flux, n.
    Definition: state of constant change
    But Yes, Id also say that the yankees right now are a material used in soldering copper pipe…

    Sam-YF October 30, 2007, 12:58 pm
  • “lp, technically, torre was indeed asked back, he just didn’t like the offer.”
    Yes, but that’s being very technical, which is what H&H want Yankee fans to walk away with. Realistically, if your employer offered you a 30% pay cut on a one year contract, would you stick around? Who would?
    And I still maintain that opting out of a contract doesn’t mean that A-Rod will be leaving for sure. It just means he wants more $$. And he certainly deserves more than the 5 year deal @ 25-30 mil per that the Yankees were reportedly dangling in front of him.

    lp October 30, 2007, 1:14 pm
  • Keep dreaming, lp. If he simply wanted more money, he would have negotiated first with the Yankees, driven their price as high as possible right to the deadline, then opted out. Dude wants no part of the Yankees, and his giant “Go %$&* yourself” was loud and clear to anyone without fanboy affection.

    Pete October 30, 2007, 1:26 pm
  • i disagree Pete. if the yankees get back into this negotation and offer the most money A-Rod will come back without blinking an eye. He won the fans over this year anyhow. This move is about money, power, and ego nothing else.

    Sam-YF October 30, 2007, 1:30 pm
  • Sam –
    Why didn’t he negotiate then? He knew the Yankees were going to offer a lot of cash. If that’s all he cares about, he would have seen how high the pile was before walking away from the table.
    And when you blow off the owners of the team in the process? Nah, no chance in hell he comes back. Like I said, the fanboy affection thing again.

    Pete October 30, 2007, 1:36 pm
  • there are many reasons for him to not negotiate. For starters, Boras has always been about pitting multiple bidders against each other. This clearly couldnt be done it this situation. Second, he could have opted out listening to Boras’ numbers as to what he imagined the market could bare. Third, Boras sees this free agency as A-Rod’s devine right basically. He is his biggest client and wants to set the bar even higher as far as record contracts go. No extension would accomplish this.
    For the record, Im not a “fanboy” of A-Rod, I have the ability to step away from a situation and analyze it. Id see your insistance that this was all about him wanting out of NY as you being whatever the opposite of a “fanboy” is. Perhaps a haterboy?

    Sam-YF October 30, 2007, 1:43 pm
  • Omniscient Pete,
    In case you missed it, which you did, Boras and A-Rod did talk to the Yankees who offered him a 5 year deal at 25-30 mil per year – which is a joke of an offer. A-Rod is seeking and will get a long term deal closer to 8-10 years.
    And I’ll take the ‘fanboy affection’ tag, which you’ve liberally applied to others as well, with a grain of salt. You are clearly partisan and far from any objective reality.
    I don’t even like A-Rod personally.
    PS, why are you so riled up about what you think the Yankees are going to do about ARod when you should be sucking on your new WS ring? Typical.

    lp October 30, 2007, 1:44 pm
  • “In case you missed it, which you did, Boras and A-Rod did talk to the Yankees who offered him a 5 year deal at 25-30 mil per year – which is a joke of an offer.”
    When did this happen? I thought the claims were that no one talked? Numbers were leaked by the press, but was a formal offer discussed?

    Nick-YF October 30, 2007, 1:46 pm
  • Those were the parameters that I read in a Yahoo (maybe originally AP) piece yesterday early evening. I don’t think it was a formal offer. I should have said ‘would be a joke of an offer’.
    But, those were the terms that lead ARod to opt out. Not very attractive for a player of his caliber.

    lp October 30, 2007, 1:50 pm
  • lp –
    You’re failing to grasp a few things:
    1) The owner said that offer was a starting point for negotiations.
    2) That offer was an extension to an existing contract where the Yankees were saving over 20 million. No doubt they were prepared to pay close to 20 million more than any other team.
    3) Those negotiations never happened because A-Rod opted out, even after the owner called him personally to the table.
    4) Yankees have consistently said they would not negotiate after he opted out. To do so now, they would lose all credibility.
    See, I’m happy to say I do have an objective view on things. And I can’t believe any YF would be holding out any hope for A-Rod on your team, unless it’s fanboy optimism talking.
    Otherwise, you still have to explain why A-Rod didn’t even feign a negotiation. Problem is, you got nuthin’.

    Pete October 30, 2007, 1:52 pm
  • Those terms were base on hearsay and rumors, no? Boras ensured that there was no communication between A-Rod and the Yanks in order to control the market from the get-go. If the leaked numbers were $40 mil/year, I still think A-Rod was opting out. In this way, I think the Yanks’ management is blameless for pushing him out.

    Nick-YF October 30, 2007, 1:54 pm
  • Ah, yes. lp’s take is that A-Rod felt insulted by a non-offer. Hilarious! Dude, wanted no part of the Yankees. He couldn’t get out of that contract fast enough. But yeah, keep believing all the Yankees have to do is offer a lot of money. Paul had it exactly right in the post.

    Pete October 30, 2007, 1:54 pm
  • In case you missed it, which you did, Boras and A-Rod did talk to the Yankees who offered him a 5 year deal at 25-30 mil per year
    I didn’t see anywhere that Boras and the Yankees talked numbers. Boras said quite clearly he wasn’t ready at all to talk numbers. The Yankees have indicated they were ready to start with 5 year extension and you can bet that it would have been at least $30 million per.
    How much does anybody want to bet that the $25-28 million per year for five years blather came from a Boras plant to begin with? It’s a lot easier PR for opting out if it looks like the Yankees were going to lowball A-Rod.

    Jay October 30, 2007, 1:55 pm
  • SF October 30, 2007, 1:58 pm
  • Omniscient Pete,
    Sam has pretty well broken it down for you as to why ARod would opt out and still want to sign with the Yankees. But I’ll try further.
    1. As a starting point, that offer is just retarded for a player like ARod. Opting out would put things on the free market and the bidding will open significantly higher and will be a reflection of a true starting point of negatiations.
    2. Yes, the offer was a 5 year extension. Why the F would one accept a 5 year deal when they can command 8-10 years on the free market, especially given that that term could and probably will come from the Yankees?
    3. You are finally correct about something. But none of it matters. You’re acting like people are going to make multi-million dollar decisions on the basis of whether or not their feelings were hurt. If the Yankees have a chance to sign Arod, they will because it is in their long-term financial interest to do so.
    4.The Yankees HAVE NOT consistently said they would not negotiate. That’s the problem with H&H and their lack of experience. There have been many conflicting messages about that over the last week or two. And in terms of credibility, the Steinbrothers have none. They are rookies driving daddy’s car with a learner’s permit.
    The real problem is that you have a major ax to grind with ARod and delight in seeing Yankee fans turn on him. Others might buy what you’re trying to sell but not me. So relax with the aboslutes. I don’t know who sounds dumber these days, you or Hank Steinbrenner.

    lp October 30, 2007, 2:09 pm
  • “and his giant “Go %$&* yourself”
    Funny, while his refusal to even talk to the yanks, the voicemail notification, etc was indeed a “go f yourself”, the timing of the announcement I took as a shot at the sox as well – he, to some degree, upstaged one of the team’s finest hours. A double whammy from someone who turned out to be a real dirtbag.
    I must admit I feel like a fool for getting into numerous heated arguments with fans booing him at yankee stadium in ’06.
    Good riddance.

    Andrews October 30, 2007, 2:13 pm
  • “Ah, yes. lp’s take is that A-Rod felt insulted by a non-offer.”
    Wow you are high on who knows what. I have no idea where you would pick that up from.
    “But yeah, keep believing all the Yankees have to do is offer a lot of money.”
    Ah, this is what it’s really about. Spoken like only a Red Sox fan could put it. Don’t you have a car to overturn, friends to bail out of jail, a copy of Fever Pitch to watch?

    lp October 30, 2007, 2:19 pm
  • Look, I do wonder if Boras will win this round.
    1) Folks remember that the Texas contract was twice what anybody else offered. He’s going to have a hard time convincing any team that A-Rod should get 30 million/year, even with his requisite “other” offers.
    2) Will any other team sign an eight year contract to then give the option of him opting out again?
    I’m guessing, but the final deal is going to be a choice of years, average annual salary, total dollars, and the assorted other clauses (opt out, no- trade, etc). I can’t see any team giving all of that especially since the Yankees won’t be at the final table.
    That said, sooner or later A-Rod is going to have to answer why he didn’t negotiate with the Yankees. Either he’s learned something from his time there, and fesses to never feeling comfortable, or he hasn’t, and tries to spin some lame excuse (wanted to be a free agent, the team was in “flux”, etc).

    Pete October 30, 2007, 2:20 pm
  • “That said, sooner or later A-Rod is going to have to answer why he didn’t negotiate with the Yankees.”
    Again, you are warping things to fit into your RSN perspective. I have never heard of a ballplayer explaining why he didn’t negotiate with a particular team. Now who’s dreaming?

    lp October 30, 2007, 2:23 pm
  • Pete and lp, please play nice. FIrst things first-The offer was never made to A-Rod. Boras and A-Rod did not want to enter even initial negotiations with the Yanks. My guess is that they wanted to have as many players as possible involved before numbers started to be leaked. So in other words, there was no leaked offer the Yanks could have made that would have led to A-Rod not opting out (double negative much?). On this point, I think I am disagreeing with lp. At the same time, I don’t find it likely, but it certainly is possible the Yanks could actually end up with A-Rod. This is a negotiation, this is Boras, this the wealthiest team in the world, and anything could happen.

    Nick-YF October 30, 2007, 2:28 pm
  • “He’s going to have a hard time convincing any team that A-Rod should get 30 million/year, even with his requisite “other” offers.”
    Perhaps. But if one were to try, it’s not hard to see what Boras would say:
    1. Arod has a chance to break Bonds’ HR record in your team’s uniform over the next decade. Think about the revenue Bonds generated for the Giants. That could be yours, and more, given that A-Rod has yet to be linked to roids.
    2. ARod is healthy and shows no signs of slowing down in the near future. He has yet to endure any serious injury that has compromised his statistical potential.
    3. In his time in NY, the Yankees broke attendence records every year, even though they won nothing beyond two division titles. Fans weren’t lining up to see Wang or Melky play and the likes of Jeter alone weren’t enough to break the BO each year.
    And I’m sure you’ve seen the headline “Can the Cubs pay 300 mil for Arod?” Far cry from the 5 yr, 30 mil per numbers that the Yanks were talking.

    lp October 30, 2007, 2:32 pm
  • Sam and his fanboy lp –
    It was in their interests to negotiate with the Yankees. They had absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain. He doesn’t want to be a Yankee. I’d guess that’s clear to about 90% of observers right now.
    lp –
    1. So you guess. We shall say see. But what they don’t have is the starting point the Yankees would have offered. All they have is their own guesses or maybe Boras has an offer already.
    2. Again, so you guess. I have no problem seeing him get an 8 year deal. But that’s exactly equivalent to the 3 years on the contract plus 5 in an extension. The only difference is the money and the Yankees were never given a chance to negotiate.
    3. The Yankees had their chance, and he ignore them.
    4. Are you high? Cashman said it. Hank said said it. Hank said it again. Cashman said goodbye. Hank said fuck off. Show me one report where they were inconsistent, cause that’s one more than I’ve seen. They qualified their remarks on Sunday night with an “If”, but that’s far from saying they’s negotiate. No, they’re done. They’ve said so and it’s in their interests now. It affects every other possible free agent decision they could ever make if their word is worth nothing.
    Further, you bet I’ve got a problem with A-Rod but it has nothing to do with the Yankees. I’m calling it exactly as I see it, and funny, it aligns with what the vast majority in the Yankee and media universe see. You’re the outlier. Mark my words – there is no way you hear the Yankees in the discussion. And that will become crystal clear when they sign or acquire a third baseman before A-Rod signs (since that will happen in December or January).

    Pete October 30, 2007, 2:33 pm
  • when did the yankees have their chance?
    enough with the name calling buddy thats not what this site is about. sorry you cant respect that someone has an opinion that differs from your own

    Sam-YF October 30, 2007, 2:37 pm
  • Nick, I’ve conceded that there was no formal offer. However, I do think that someone like Boras knows where his adversaries are coming from. That being said, I don’t see a scenario where Arod would opt-in after a career year from a certain hall-of-famer – this exact scenario is why the clause was negotiated for in the first place.
    Also, I’ve never said it’s a certainty that Arod will sign with the Yankees. It is a possibility – around the 50-50 point.

    lp October 30, 2007, 2:37 pm
  • lp –
    You’re telling me that no reporter, not one, is going to ask him why he opted out so soon without negotiating first with the Yankees? It boils down to why he left the Yankees. And lots of folks will be asking those questions until he provides some semblance of an answer.
    Sure, those will be the Boras arguments. But then he can explain too why A-Rod’s never led his team to winning anything.
    And you keep talking about the measly offer. I have no doubt, based on all the reports, that the Yankees were prepared to offer ~250 million over 8 years (90 million in the current contract plus another 160 million over five years). But again, A-Rod never got that or any offer cause he walked away from the table well before he had to.

    Pete October 30, 2007, 2:40 pm
  • Pete, I’m not even going to try to respond to your Psychic Hotline post. Really, there is a side-show tent waiting for you somewhere on the county fair circuit.
    If you can accurately predict what teams will sign what players and when, you are wasting your talents on this site.

    lp October 30, 2007, 2:41 pm
  • “You’re telling me that no reporter, not one, is going to ask him why he opted out so soon without negotiating first with the Yankees?”
    No. I’m telling you that ballplayers don’t respond to those questions. ARod’s response will be like most everyone else’s:
    “I don’t comment on contract negotiations.”
    Please provide examples of ballplayers (any sport) re-hashing past contract disputes in the media.

    lp October 30, 2007, 2:44 pm
  • lp –
    You mostly certainly are high. And I can’t believe there are actually YF’s like you. It’s not a surprise, but you’re completely and utterly grasping at air. You’ll see soon enough.
    I can’t predict many things. But A-Rod saying “Go %$#& yourself” to the Yankees and him getting the same in return says everything I need to know.
    And he will be asked why he left the Yankees. Cause that’s exactly how it will be played. It wasn’t about the negotiation – it was about leaving a team he was “happy” with.

    Pete October 30, 2007, 2:47 pm
  • And A-Rod can never say it was about the money with the Yankees, cause no one would ever believe him. He better stick to the “team in flux” story.

    Pete October 30, 2007, 2:49 pm
  • Guys, the compensation is not the factor. If it was, he most definitely would have at least sat down the Yankees and said, “This is what I want.”
    He didn’t do that. And he didn’t do it for one obvious reason:
    He no longer wanted to play for the NY Yankees.
    Remember, he was willing to take money off his contract in order to get the deal done with the Red Sox (wasn’t it like a total of $50 million or something?), and he knows that no other team can pay what the Yankees would pay. That’s why he opted out so fast. If he gets a huge extension offer and still opts out, he gets accused of just being ‘greedy’ and caring only about the money.

    Jay October 30, 2007, 2:51 pm
  • Pete, you still haven’t provided examples of ballplayers that have rehashed contract negotiations in the media. But, then, that’s no surprise.
    You clearly have some serious RSN issues. On a day when you should be celebrating you team’s second championship in four years, you are here arguing over speculative issues that you have no direct knowledge of nor any control over. I’ll bet that you’ve also complained that A-Rod upstaged the Sox with his announcement, and yet now, you fuel the flames.
    You need help. How many championships will it take to erase the scars of past Red Sox frustration? Either way, even though your team has won, you have personally lost by pursuing your A-Rod speculation on this message board.
    A-Rod wins!

    lp October 30, 2007, 3:20 pm
  • That’s enough now, lp. You’re making a mockery of your own intelligence. What was your point again?

    Pete October 30, 2007, 3:36 pm
  • I’m guardedly hopeful that Boras may get his comeuppance as a result of all this.
    Boras succeeds by playing teams off one another, using actual or phantom bids to drive the price of a player up, up, up.
    But in this case, he and his client have (it would appear) knocked the team with the most money to spend out of the contest — that would be the Yankees.
    And by intruding into Game 4 the way he did, Boras irritated the management and the fans base of the likely second highest bidder — that would be the Red Sox.
    By bringing condemnation down upon themselves from MLB, and almost universal disdain from the media, Boras and ARod have thus tarnished what the agent was touting as his client’s biggest asset — his star power, his ability to sell tickets.
    Now, I don’t doubt that there are plenty of people in baseball management (and that might even include Henry, Lucchino, Werner & Theo) who will put all non-statistical and non-monetary factors aside when deciding whether to pursue ARod.
    That said, Boras has created a situation where it is not inconceivable that ARod gets *less* money than his declined New York option was worth.

    Hudson October 30, 2007, 4:11 pm
  • No problem with anything you say Hudson, except the Yankees never really made an offer nor had a chance to negotiate. Had they, I have no doubt they would have ended up giving A-Rod between 250 and 275 million over the next eight years.
    The question for me is whether another team will really pay $300 million or more. And I just don’t see it. But then no one saw 250 million either.
    At the very least it will be entertaining. Too bad I want both of the scumbags to just go away already.

    Pete October 30, 2007, 4:30 pm
  • Pete, I’ve been listening to WFAN and ESPN a lot the last couple of days, and I thought the Yankees had fleshed out at least an impression of what they would likely offer to Boras, without meeting or putting anything in writing. Is that wrong?

    Hudson October 30, 2007, 4:43 pm
  • I am honestly lost. Boras thinks A-Rod can get more on the open market than simply extending with the Yankees? Or A-Rod wanted out of New York, no ifs/ands/buts? Or A-Rod doesn’t want out of NYC, but thinks the Yankees are bluffing? Or Hank Steinbrenner is bluffing by insulting A-Rod and thus feigning a door-closed policy to Boras? What negotiating ju-jitsu we have here!
    We always say that Boras is only interested in the biggest contract value, with good reason. But we also know that A-Rod is something of an enigma. Is there any room in this discussion for the possibility that A-Rod simply wants to play elsewhere, but that his PR skills, already established as, um, poor, got the best of him, with an assist to Boras? Is there any room in the discussion for the possibility that the Yankees supposed offer was a complete crock, that they never offered him the biggest contract in the history of baseball, information leaked so that their fans think A-Rod is the villain? I certainly have no clue what happened – unlike with the Torre situation neither the team nor the player in question have revealed the terms of the offer or spoken in public about the dealings.
    I don’t see how anyone can know what the intentions were behind this, other than “A-Rod wanted to be a free agent and handled it really poorly”.

    SF October 30, 2007, 4:46 pm
  • Hudson –
    No, no, but just from what I’ve read that was the starting point. I was just trying to preempt an argument about A-Rod getting “more” on the open market. It’s hard to know that baseline for the Yankees cause A-Rod never gave them a chance.
    SF-
    I have no doubt that the Yankees would have paid more than any one else. Not only because they could but because they had a 20 million head start.
    But I also have no doubt that A-Rod was finished in NY. Otherwise, there’s absolutely no reason to short circuit the Yankees ability to bid. It was in their interests to get the Yankees as high as possible, then shop that offer around. A-Rod didn’t even want to feign interest when he could have become a free agent with a monster offer already in hand from the Yankees. Indeed, by completely blowing them and their owners off, he completely burned the bridge on the way to raping and pillaging the MLB village. If he was interested he could have easily led them on to the last minute, drove up the price, then walked away based on the possibility of getting a better deal, but with no hard feelings. It didn’t happen. Instead, it was the exact polar opposite.
    Really, is this that difficult for people?

    Pete October 30, 2007, 5:04 pm
  • If he was interested he could have easily led them on to the last minute
    Unless you are willing to admit that somehow the Yankees knew he had no interest in coming back to New York, that this was all damage control on both sides: the Yankees “preparing a massive offer”, A-Rod clumsily opting out.
    I am not sure this affair wasn’t a product of Boras knowing the Yankees knew they weren’t an option, handled hideously.
    How can anyone know, though?

    SF October 30, 2007, 5:13 pm
  • I dont think that Boras believes that he has necessarily burned the bridge of the yankees. He could easily believe that they will jump back in on this at a later point. Also, he may also just “know” that another is ready to offer more than the yankees were ever willing to offer. As SF said we have no idea what is intent is and reason for opting out of this contract. Only 2 people know that him and his agent.
    There could be many other rationals for not letting the yankees come to the table in an exclusive fashion other than “I want out” If your hatred for the yankees blinds you to that so be it.

    Sam-YF October 30, 2007, 5:19 pm
  • SF –
    Why ever would the Yankees think that A-Rod wanted to leave? What would ever make you think that? Point to one report, just one.
    Sam –
    The other offer I can believe, but no one is going to pay more than the Yankees would have offered. I can never, ever, see that. Indeed, name the last time a free agent got more from another team when the Yankees were seriously in the bidding. It just doesn’t happen, and not for a player that thrived this year in NY (except the post-season, again) and at a critical position where they have no one else.
    Sorry if you don’t see it, but his intent is perfectly clear. The Yankees were never, ever in this thing. And nothing they said, did, or offer was going to change that. How do we know? Because nothing they said, did, or offered changed that.

    Pete October 30, 2007, 8:05 pm
  • SF –
    Why ever would the Yankees think that A-Rod wanted to leave? What would ever make you think that? Point to one report, just one.
    Sam –
    The other offer I can believe, but no one is going to pay more than the Yankees would have offered. I can never, ever, see that. Indeed, name the last time a free agent got more from another team when the Yankees were seriously in the bidding. It just doesn’t happen, and not for a player that thrived this year in NY (except the post-season, again) and at a critical position where they have no one else.
    Sorry if you don’t see it, but his intent is perfectly clear. The Yankees were never, ever in this thing. And nothing they said, did, or offer was going to change that. How do we know? Because nothing they said, did, or offered changed that.

    Pete October 30, 2007, 8:06 pm
  • Pete, I never said I thought that. I said there are tons of possibilities, including that.
    And seeing a report in the sports page does not mean something is true. Conversely, NOT hearing something doesn’t mean that something hasn’t happened.

    SF October 30, 2007, 8:13 pm
  • So you got nothing to go on? We might as well speculate that A-Rod is going to play in Japan as an owner.
    Look, the simplest explanation here is obvious. And unless he gets $350 – 400 million over 10 years from the Giants, no one can say the Yankees weren’t going to come close, if he gave them a chance (which he didn’t). He didn’t want to stay in NY. He’s made it obvious by running out the door. I know it. You know it. He knows it. The Yankees certainly know it. And most YF’s and baseball fans know it. Case closed.
    P.s. The same thing happened when he left Seattle. He expressed interest throughout the season then never looked back, not even for negotiations.

    Pete October 30, 2007, 8:29 pm
  • Pete- I am done with this conversation. I had no idea you had a conduit into the minds of Alex Rodriguez and Scott Boras. You have decided there is only one way to read this situation and there are no plausible other explainations. That is your perogative.
    In my mind, along with that of many others, there are a variety of reasons any or all of which contributed to this decision being made, one of which is wanting out of NY. If you want to close the others out go for it. At this point I really dont care why A-Rod left. We will never know. (except you, who knows without a doubt exactly what happened)

    Sam-YF October 30, 2007, 8:51 pm
  • Except you’ve offered no other plausible explanations that fit the facts, Sam.

    Pete October 30, 2007, 9:42 pm
  • yes pete and your explaination of “its so obvious to me” makes it true.
    I and others did offer multiple plausible explainations above, just because your hatred blinds you to the possibity of them being true doesnt make them untrue.

    Sam-YF October 30, 2007, 11:04 pm
  • Or your fanboy perspective colors your opinion.
    Look, I see two open questions:
    1) Do the Yankees enter this thing?
    2) Did A-Rod want to come back to NY?
    I think the answer to both is two blatantly obvious no’s.
    lp, imagines a Yes to #1
    You, Sam, are just vacillating around about the answer to #2.
    Some day, we’ll have definitive answers to both. #1 in the next two months, and #2 some time in the next year (or longer if all we get is lame excuses).
    But this certainly isn’t that difficult to read.

    Pete October 31, 2007, 5:25 am
  • Guys, I’m with Pete on this one. If A-Rod had any notion that he wanted to come back to NY, he would have sat down with them and at least talked. The way he did it allows him to attempt to spin the story the way he wants and doesn’t make it look like he’s the ‘greed’ man when some owner decides to give him that 10yr/$30 million deal.

    Jay-YF October 31, 2007, 8:21 am
  • ha! The fanboy response again. There is the evidence I was looking for name calling. The funny thing is that I acknowledge that he may just have wanted out, my only point is that it is not the only reason and your certitude is unfounded. Maybe your fanboy biases just cant let you see that.

    Sam-YF October 31, 2007, 8:26 am
  • Actually, that of course would be 10yr/$300 million deal…..

    Jay-YF October 31, 2007, 8:27 am
  • Let’s scale back the name-calling, OK?
    It might be time to put a ban on “fanboy” on this site, it’s really unnecessary.
    As for the reasons behind A-Rod’s opting out, I tend towards the Occam’s Razor theory which Pete articulates. The simplest answer: A-Rod/Boras wanted to be a free agent, test the market, see his options.
    BUT: there is still room, Pete, for other explanations. I imagine that there were several factors in his decision. I see no reason why those can’t be considered.

    SF October 31, 2007, 8:34 am
  • SF. I dont think thats the reason that Pete is giving. I agree that he just wanted to be a free agent and i what i have been arguing for. Its not a simply an “I want out of NY” thing to punish the yankees and their fans, etc. Alex would be happy to play for the yankees again if they ponied up $300 mil over 10 years.

    Sam-YF October 31, 2007, 8:59 am
  • Sam, you are right – Pete seems to be saying that A-Rod wanted nothing to do with the Yankees, end of story, and that was perhaps a stupid move.
    I am not sure I disagree with him on A-Rod’s desire to be in New York — there are a lot of reasons, non-monetary, for him to want out. On the other hand, I don’t think Boras would advise A-Rod to ignore an offer from the Yankees, and I imagine he thinks there is still a chance to use them as leverage, whether they are truly in the mix or not. He did that with Damon, spouting that he had several teams interested for crazy dollars, driving the price up (remember the 7-year offer Johnny supposedly received?). I think Pete has some valid points, but he’s being far too extreme in his position.

    SF October 31, 2007, 9:21 am
  • I have no doubt that Bor-Rod would use the Yankees to drive up his price, but only on their terms. The Yankees rightly saw that would it be dumb to lose 20 million AND be forced to compete. Simply, the Yankees aren’t going to let that happen and good on them (unless you agree with lp).
    You guys keep saying there *could* be other reasons but have offered nothing more compelling than simply “He wanted to be a free agent”. D’uh. I’m saying that AND he had no interest in returning to the Yankees. There’s been nothing to dispute that opinion and every fact in how the opt-out was handled point directly to that interpretation. Occam’s Mach 3 Razor, if you’d like.

    Pete October 31, 2007, 2:44 pm
  • By the way, Boras did ignore any semblance of an offer from the Yankees. He might be thinking the Yankees could get involved, but I suspect he doesn’t care one way or another. He thinks they’ll get their money regardless, and he’s probably right. I think we all hope he’s wrong just for the sheer Schedenfreud.

    Pete October 31, 2007, 2:47 pm

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