To Manny or Not To Manny

From Ken Rosenthal’s latest:

It was, to a degree; Manny mostly acts like a big kid who wouldn’t hurt anyone. Still, McCormick is 64, and when you come right down to it, there is little difference between Ramirez’s behavior and Shawn Chacon’s — except that Chacon is a journeyman while Ramirez is a future Hall of Famer.

To this point, I’ve thought it was a lock that the Red Sox would exercise Ramirez’s $20 million option for next season, but now I’m not so sure. Manny’s production no longer is otherworldly. The free-agent market would offer no clear-cut solution, but at worst the Sox could go with Jacoby Ellsbury, Coco Crisp and J.D. Drew in the outfield and David Ortiz at DH. Or, they could try to trade for a replacement such as the Rockies’ Matt Holliday.

The Sox have proven they can function without Ortiz, at least short-term. As long as they still had Ortiz, they could survive without Manny, too.

Discuss.

41 comments… add one
  • The free-agent market would offer no clear-cut solution, but at worst the Sox could go with Jacoby Ellsbury, Coco Crisp and J.D. Drew in the outfield and David Ortiz at DH.
    So at worst, the Red Sox could decimate their lineup. A winner of an idea there, Ken.
    Just because a team has a winning record for one month without David Ortiz (interchange Ramirez) does not 1. Guarantee a full season’s worth of similar results, or 2. Mean the team would not be doing even better with him.

    Paul SF July 1, 2008, 4:53 pm
  • > Manny’s production no longer is otherworldly.
    Instead it’s merely awesome for this world?
    > Holliday
    Does he mean the Matt Holliday whose batting average is 85 points lower and slugging percentage is 200 points lower away from Coors Field (Road split: .277/.340/.450)? Yeah that’s brilliant.

    attackgerbil July 1, 2008, 4:53 pm
  • Is the point of this discussion regarding Manny being on the team, or at that price? I might have some quibble with the $20M, but not with the player, the recent outburst/assault notwithstanding.

    FenSheaParkway July 1, 2008, 5:03 pm
  • Or is the point that Manny did something terrible but isn’t being punished, even though he may have been punished and we don’t know, or that he did something just like Shawn Chacon (who actually put his hands around someone’s neck, not to excuse Manny but this isn’t a black and white world, all things are not equal no matter how hard sportswriters want them to be), or that the Sox would ennoble themselves to the world if they took action, or that the Sox would be better off without Manny and his presence?
    Whichever it is, it is all blather.

    SF July 1, 2008, 5:08 pm
  • DS from today’s Globe:
    Shoving McCormick to the ground is not OK. Period. But the spineless Sox continue to enable their wacky outfielder. And most fans – the ones who welcomed Manny back like Charles Lindbergh in the spring of ’07 after he quit in the fall of ’06 – will excuse anything Manny does. Because he can hit. They’re the same people who called radio shows yesterday to make excuses for Manny. There’s nothing he can do to insult or offend the sycophants.

    Anonymous July 1, 2008, 10:22 pm
  • It’s a good thing that’s the CHB, otherwise I’d be offended. That man sure knows how to get people to like him.

    Atheose July 1, 2008, 10:39 pm
  • Shaughnessy, knowing nothing about what the team has or hasn’t done, breaks out the discredited “Manny quit on his team” libel to prove his point. Why again does the Globe give him the A1 billing for every significant Boston sports event?

    Paul SF July 1, 2008, 10:42 pm
  • Wait, I thought Manny actually did quit on the team in 2006. That wasn’t obvious? And wouldn’t the CHB know better than most?
    I can see where DS is hated by Boston sportsfans, esp in relation to a guy like Gammons used to be, but it seems like he’d get the very best info. After all, wasn’t he the guy that got LL’s version of events out into the world?

    A YF July 1, 2008, 10:50 pm
  • > Shoving McCormick to the ground is not OK
    Wow, I got so confused. I thought it was just fine. But now I understand that of course it is not OK. Thank _God_ DS is there to draw the curtains back from my shuttered eyes so I might understand the gravity of person on person violence. Period fucking Period. What the fucking fuck does Charles Lindbergh have to do with anything? Was Manny the guy that kidnapped his baby? The Sox should beat him with reeds. And suspend him without pay. Then cut him while filing a union grievance just to spite their face.
    People get in fights. People do stupid things. McCormick says it is over. I’m guessing that some would say (DS: “good career move”) McCormick is in an impossible position as he would be blackballed from the league if he were to raise a fuss. Maybe you can take a man at his word when he says it is over.
    > There’s nothing he can do to insult or offend the sycophants.
    Am I insulted? No, it was reported immediately. Am I offended? Over what — that Manny acted a jackass, apologized, and is getting lambasted in the press? None of that is offensive. What is offensive is this constant raising of ire, that “someone should DO SOMETHING”. SOMEONE’S GOTTA PAY/GET FIRED. Fortunately, DS provided an articulate and specific solution: “it gets you a suspension at the very least.” And the admonishment, “There are times when it’s OK to tell the world you’re punishing Manny Ramírez.”
    Thanks for that, and thanks for telling us.

    attackgerbil July 1, 2008, 10:55 pm
  • I had typed up like 3 paragraphs, but AG sums it up better than I did. Thanks ;-)

    Atheose July 1, 2008, 11:02 pm
  • Sorry, AG, but I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at.
    Simple question: Should Manny get a suspension from the team?
    Another question: How would the opinion of those here change had it been a Yankee pushing a 64 yo employee to the ground?
    By the way, I think DS has at least one good point: The employee has every incentive to let it go (unless he wanted a bigger payday). Still, that shouldn’t stop people from clamoring for justice. It’s a pretty appalling thing. Didn’t Kenny Rogers get suspended for pushing a cameraman to the ground? That was 20 games (and later reduced to 13). Why isn’t that appropriate for Manny?

    A YF July 1, 2008, 11:17 pm
  • Didn’t Kenny Rogers get suspended for pushing a cameraman to the ground?
    Cameraman was suing both Rogers and Major League Baseball, Rogers being suspended was part of the deal they made to get him to drop the case.
    Also, that incident was caught on camera and played about 10,000 times on TV before Rogers was suspended. Manny’s incident happened behind closed doors and has only been described as “pushing”. Whether or not you agree with it, there’s a huge difference in the way it’s perceived because of that.

    Atheose July 1, 2008, 11:22 pm
  • “Cameraman was suing both Rogers and Major League Baseball, Rogers being suspended was part of the deal they made to get him to drop the case.”
    Sorry, but I’d like to see a link on that. He was suspended within a day or two. I fail to see how a lawsuit is related one way or another.
    And I have a very hard time believing the same folks would be saying “it is all blather” if it had been a Yankee.

    A YF July 1, 2008, 11:25 pm
  • “Manny’s incident happened behind closed doors and has only been described as “pushing”…”
    Yeah, “pushing” an old man to the ground and a member of the same organization. If baseball can suspend Rogers for 13 games, the team can suspend Manny for at least 5 games.
    There seems to be a lot of excusing going on in RSN and right after the same individual slapped one of his teammates. Sad, really…I actually like Manny.

    A YF July 1, 2008, 11:29 pm
  • Sorry, but I’d like to see a link on that. He was suspended within a day or two. I fail to see how a lawsuit is related one way or another.
    Go prove me wrong if you don’t believe me.
    And I have a very hard time believing the same folks would be saying “it is all blather” if it had been a Yankee.
    Aww poor Yankees always getting picked on. It’s okay AYF, we’ve got tissues.

    Atheose July 1, 2008, 11:31 pm
  • If baseball can suspend Rogers for 13 games, the team can suspend Manny for at least 5 games.
    They can, but they don’t have to. Their opinion is the only one that matters, and I’m sure they’ve discussed all options. But of course the opinion of a “public figure” weighs far more than the actual organization itself, which includes the only people who were present for the incident.
    Nothing to see here, move along.

    Atheose July 1, 2008, 11:34 pm
  • “Go prove me wrong if you don’t believe me.”
    Ummm, it’s impossible to “prove” a negative. You made a claim. The “proof” is required on your side.
    “Aww poor Yankees always getting picked on.”
    No, just that I’ve seen enough sanctimony from RSN to know when it’s missing. The silence is deafening.

    A YF July 1, 2008, 11:34 pm
  • “Their opinion is the only one that matters, and I’m sure they’ve discussed all options.”
    Well, at least they keep their players in line about Japan trip complaints! Good work, Theo! That’s a tight ship!
    “Nothing to see here, move along.”
    I’m not surprised, in the least, by this attitude.

    A YF July 1, 2008, 11:38 pm
  • Ummm, it’s impossible to “prove” a negative.
    You can do better than that. Go do a bit of research–it’s not my fault you don’t remember things correctly.
    Plus, YOU’RE the one always making outlandish claims and then resting the burden of proof on other people to prove you wrong.
    Now there IS a metric often that advertisers use. It’s called a “Q score” or “Q rating”. The number is based on a random sampling of how well known a given celebrity is. I can’t find the numbers for 2007, but I’m very certain that A-Rod has a higher Q than Papi. Feel free to prove me wrong.
    Posted by: A YF | Friday, May 23, 2008 at 05:52 PM

    I’m sure there are dozens of other examples, but I’m too lazy to look now. But feel free to prove me wrong!

    Atheose July 1, 2008, 11:41 pm
  • Well, at least they keep their players in line about Japan trip complaints! Good work, Theo! That’s a tight ship!
    That’s the best you’ve got? Gotta fall back on that again? You sound just like the CHB himself!
    So THAT’S what you meant when you said you were a “public figure”. Everything’s starting to make sense! Though which is a better nickname: True Scotsman or CHB?

    Atheose July 1, 2008, 11:44 pm
  • “Ummm, it’s impossible to “prove” a negative.”
    You do understand what that means, right? If I think something doesn’t exist, no matter how much research I do, it won’t matter. That’s the point. You made a suspect claim where I can’t even fathom what your evidence consists of. I think the Rogers lawsuit story is BS especially with regard to a suspension leading to the lawsuit being dropped.
    As for the Q-score – that’s a easy example where proving me right or wrong is very straight-forward. The numbers are published every year. Furthermore, there’s no denying it’s existence. Didn’t someone in that same thread allude to it as well? Was it AG?

    A YF July 1, 2008, 11:48 pm
  • Good night, Atheose. I fear I have nothing to ever learn from you.

    A YF July 1, 2008, 11:49 pm
  • > Sorry, AG, but I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at.
    I do get wordy sometimes. I’ll be direct. This article by Dan Shaughnessy is a pile of shit.
    > Simple question: Should Manny get a suspension from the team?
    Depends on the circumstance as witnessed by those indirectly involved and the statements of the principle participants. My WMD (Wild-ass Management Decision) _might_ be a substantial fine payable to a charitable foundation and a set of mandated conflict resolution sessions, but I don’t know enough detail about the actual situation to answer your question with any more specifics. Suspending a person at this (or any) wage scale from their job doesn’t necessarily teach anyone anything except “I’m not working and I’m losing money that I may not really need.”
    > How would the opinion of those here change had it been a Yankee pushing a 64 yo employee to the ground?
    That question is completely irrelevant. However, my opinion would not change. My nickname is attackgerbil exactly because of this kind of circumstance.
    > DS has at least one good point: The employee has every incentive to let it go (unless he wanted a bigger payday)
    That is a speculation by DS, not a statement of fact. He made an incredibly accurate point when he said that Manny Ramirez plays for the Boston Red Sox.
    > Why isn’t that appropriate for Manny?
    It might be.

    attackgerbil July 1, 2008, 11:49 pm
  • Although no one was hit in the penis today, the fact still remains:
    We are both losing to the Tampa Bay Rays.

    IronHorse (yf) July 1, 2008, 11:51 pm
  • If I think something doesn’t exist, no matter how much research I do, it won’t matter.
    Seriously, that’s the best you’ve got? Go do a quick bit of research on the events that unfolded leading to Roger’s suspension in 2005. Google News makes it easy. It’s really simple.
    But hey, if you’d rather play ignorance that’s cool too. Classic CHB style.

    Atheose July 1, 2008, 11:53 pm
  • Thanks AG. I’m happy that I continue to have things to learn from you.
    In response two quick points:
    1) For as much as CHB is a detestable writer, I think the chances are good he’ll always have better info than anyone here and probably outside of Boston. Not sure how the information flow runs inside the city however. Still, I understand that it’s very questionable how he puts that knowledge to use.
    2) This is probably a very good example why the commissioner’s office needs to get involved in every incident where a crime has been committed. And here, the player involved has now committed two assaults in the span of a few weeks. I can’t see why it’s in Baseball’s interest to let the team’s police their own in situations like this. They’re setting themselves up for a much worse story.

    A YF July 1, 2008, 11:55 pm
  • My nickname is attackgerbil exactly because of this kind of circumstance.
    You mean it has nothing to do with the rubber sheets and tubes of KY?

    Atheose July 1, 2008, 11:55 pm
  • Good night, Atheose. I fear I have nothing to ever learn from you.
    Thanks AG. I’m happy that I continue to have things to learn from you.
    YFSF: Existing for the sole purpose of teaching AYF since 2007!

    Atheose July 1, 2008, 11:56 pm
  • > Didn’t someone in that same thread allude to it as well? Was it AG?
    You mentioned the existence of Q when discussing the Ortiz promotion at the ASG. I said that it is not a single score but actually a multi-faceted metric that is indeed used to determine name recognition, but also positive and negative reaction regarding public perception across multiple demographics.

    attackgerbil July 1, 2008, 11:58 pm
  • > You mean it has nothing to do with the rubber sheets and tubes of KY?
    Well, yeah. That too.

    attackgerbil July 1, 2008, 11:59 pm
  • For as much as CHB is a detestable writer, I think the chances are good he’ll always have better info than anyone here and probably outside of Boston.
    Except, you know, the team itself. The team–and everyone involved–has said that everyone has moved on. Their statements are worth far more than CHB’s ratings-driven speculation.
    I can’t see why it’s in Baseball’s interest to let the team’s police their own in situations like this.
    If Manny was throwing around Quincy hookers or Don Zimmer, I’d agree with you completely. But both of the events you’ve mentioned happened between two players within the organization. Unless somebody presses charges there’s no reason to have the commish step in.

    Atheose July 2, 2008, 12:01 am
  • “He made an incredibly accurate point when he said that Manny Ramirez plays for the Boston Red Sox.”
    My favorite line of the thread.

    Nick-YF July 2, 2008, 9:56 am
  • AG drinks your milkshake!

    Atheose July 2, 2008, 9:58 am
  • IH said:
    “Although no one was hit in the penis today,”
    Chris Snyder might want to disagree (close enough):
    Diamondbacks placed catcher Chris Snyder on the disabled list with a left testicular fracture. Snyder was injured when he was hit by a foul tip last night.
    somebody ought to arrest that baseball!

    dw (sf) July 2, 2008, 10:27 am
  • the testicle can be fractured? Sometimes life is just not worth living.

    Nick-YF July 2, 2008, 10:32 am
  • AG drinks your milkshake!
    The new best line of the thread. Dan Shaughnessy’s only information comes from Gordon Edes, who wrote an unsourced piece full of logical fallacies that was debunked (easily) both here and across the blogosphere. That Edes piece, abetted by Shaughnessy, has grown into some sort of accepted truth among those who weren’t bothering to pay attention in 2006 to the fact that when Manny did play in the last month of the season, he couldn’t hit a traveling secretary (too soon?)…

    Paul SF July 2, 2008, 10:35 am
  • “a left testicular fracture”
    If this is true, I feel physically ill.

    IronHorse (yf) July 2, 2008, 10:37 am
  • Chris Snyder (somehow) just wrested “worst injury ever” away from Kazuo Matsui (Mr. Anal Fissure)…

    Paul SF July 2, 2008, 10:39 am
  • Really? Did Manny have surgery that off-season? Seriously…
    I’m not trying to start something, but I just seem to remember the impression that Manny quit on his team right after the 5-game sweep. I thought that was common knowledge.
    Again, I’m a big Manny fan because of what he does (or did) with the bat. But it’s obvious he’s become a world-class ass in every other way.

    A YF July 2, 2008, 10:39 am
  • “Sometimes life is just not worth living.”
    LOL.
    I had “torsion” once. Look it up. Not fun or funny. The pain killers were nice though.

    A YF July 2, 2008, 10:42 am
  • A YF said:
    “Really? Did Manny have surgery that off-season? Seriously…
    I’m not trying to start something, but I just seem to remember the impression that Manny quit on his team right after the 5-game sweep. I thought that was common knowledge.”
    No, I don’t believe he did, but many times rest is the best course for Patellar Tendinitis (what they said he had). If people have read “Dynasty” by Massarotti of the Herald he calls out Manny for quiting on the team as well. It may appear that way, but it’s unfair to a person without direct knowledge to make accusations. In the quitting case, or in the “shoving” case (was first reported by ProJo, but I don’t think Sean was an eye witness either)

    dw (sf) July 2, 2008, 10:55 am

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