Unintended Guilt?

Nomah chimes in with an odd take on the 103 names:

"It's just this list that was supposed to be anonymous," Garciaparra
said. "And if that was a mess and it's not anonymous, then how much can
you believe it? It was a joke, if you really know the way we went
through it. It was supposed to be anonymous, and now it's not? Then
what is and what isn't? It's unfortunate."

The infielder, who
spent seven and a half years with the Red Sox between 1996 and 2003,
expressed extreme dissatisfaction with the idea that names from the
list are slowly but surely being leaked.

Garciaparra cast doubt
on the method employed to obtain the 103 names on the list, suggesting
that some players opted not to take the test in order to purposely fail
the test. The players assumed that doing so would increase the number
of positive tests and therefore require PED testing throughout

"There were literally guys who said, 'I'm not taking
it. Go ahead and put me positive because I want the number to be above
[the requirement to warrant steroid testing in baseball],' because they
wanted steroid testing," he said.

He said that now, those
players will look like they tested positive for steroid when, in fact,
they essentially lied in order to implement steroid testing where it
was needed.

I spent all of ninth grade not doing homework because I wanted my teachers to implement a stricter homework policy. I played Warrant really loud in my room because I wanted everyone outside to hear it so they would spread the word about how awful Warrant was. I stand in the doorway of subway cars because I want to emphasize how dickish a move that is so that others will not follow my lead. I have severe coffee breath because I want others to know that halitosis is a serious problem that affects those close to them.

Who knows? Maybe this is true. And maybe we should move on. The Truth is not coming out anytime soon.

h/t rootbeerfloat for the link

29 replies on “Unintended Guilt?”

Yes this explains it perfectly. Papi and Manny were simply crusaders who were simply trying to clean the game up. Any spikes in numbers were a result of the wheel of karma spinning around and rewarding them for their valiant acts!

So there you have it: Papi isn’t a cheater, he’s a hero! The man deserves a parade and you guys are throwing him to the lions.
For shame.

Nick, interesting that Nomar says this. Curt Schilling posted at SoSH yesterday afternoon and stated the following, in a thread about Papi and Manny:
In thinking back on this, hindsight being the wonderful thing it is, here is what I should have done instead of standing up and asking the team to NOT take the test.
I should have refused, and immediately afterwards, through the union or agents, found out the others that wanted to do the same, and then issued a statement saying we would ‘test positive’ by denying to take the test. In doing so we would be attempting to trigger the 5% threshold to implement testing to clean the game up.
How fucking naive was I? Sure I thought people were using, thought I might know of some, but man, it seems like it’s a shit ton more than 20-30% no?
When we hit, I think, something like 7% I was relieved, surprised too, that we’d have testing and that so few players got hit. I didn’t know at the time or didn’t care to look at the fact that HGH was untraceable really.
I am starting to think many MANY players I competed against, that beat me, really didn’t. That sucks.

I realize that many non-Sox fans will try to tear Curt’s statement apart just because he is Curt, but the whole “stand up and refuse the test” idea isn’t unique to Nomar. Curt admittedly did NOT do this, but clearly that idea is something that has come up. I do not post this to imply that Papi was some sort of conscientious objector (rationally this cannot be the case), but rather to point out the possibility that some players did, in fact, do this. Curt posted a number of items in that thread, they are worth looking at if only because he was a member of the 2004 Sox.

If that was truly a possibility that players refused to be tested, therefore be marked as testing positive by MLB, I would think that information would be available. Even though the whole testing in 2003 and the subsequent clusterf**K by MLB with the results that occurred I hope that they recorded WHAT they tested positive for. If they did, what did they put down for those that may have refused to be tested???

If the list is truly just a list of players who “failed” the drug tests in 2003 without a reason, then it very well could include players who decided not to take it out of a desire to get a testing policy implemented. Though, if I were a player who did that, you can bet I’d be calling a press conference ASAP. Heck, even if I wasn’t, I’d be calling a press conference and saying that anyway. Who’s going to say it’s not true?
Really, this whole thing was so screwed up by the union, who had a yearslong window to destoy the list and inexplicably never did so.

The I failed refused a test story is noble in principle but the players as a whole (along with basically everyone else) have ZERO credibility on this issue. The more I hear someone like Schilling sound-off on this topic the more I suspect that player of doing something. His writings could easily be construed by a cynical person as someone trying “to get ahead of the story” preempting any claims made against him. This is not said as a personal attack against Schilling as Id apply to anyone, he just appears to be among the most vocal here. As Shakespeare wrote “Methinks the lady doth protest too much”
Furthermore, Nomar’s comments were made to help sow at least some element of doubt about any future names (such as his own) that come out. I find it noteworthy that in that same set of comments, Nomar refused to say if he personally refused the test. At this point I dont believe a thing that any player says about PED use in baseball, especially guys currently playing.

His writings could easily be construed by a cynical person as someone trying “to get ahead of the story” preempting any claims made against him.
Don’t mistake your own cynicism for someone else’s.

I fully admit that its my cynicism…i still dont believe it to be that unlikely of a scenario given all of the crap that has come out over the years on this subject.

Complete radio silence (unless Ive missed something) since Ortiz’s initial lie about the PED story…guess he is still “blindsided” about the news he has known about for 5 years.

Yeah, Sam, I was just wondering when the press conference is. Seems like the Gammons interview should have been last night.
Of course, there’s also that nagging problem that no one’s managed to ask Manny if he ever stopped using estrogen drugs from 2003 to 2009.

Of course, where’s the breathless coverage from the Boston mediots? has a singular column from Bob Ryan about the “game” and the other 100 names. The Herald hasn’t had anything since Saturday and that was about Ortiz waiting for information from the Union.
Impeccable journalism right there. Really, good to see there’s no bias in their coverage.

There’s an angle here that you both, intentionally or not, are missing. Ortiz is now quite far down the line of big-name players to be outed for positive tests or widely assumed to have used steroids.
We already had, in roughly chronological order:
Plus the Mitchell Report, with its numerous semistars — Pettitte, Gagne, etc.
Ortiz is somewhere between eighth and 10th on the list, depending on where you draw the “big name” cutoff. By the 10th time, it’s simply not as newsworthy anymore. Like suicide bombings in Baghdad, shark attacks off Florida and white blonde girls being abducted. They’re all things the media jumped on the first five times they happened. Now the furor has died down because the more things happen, the less they become news. That’s just the way it goes.
Now add to that A-Rod’s status entering the revelation as the future home run king, the man predestined to retake the title for cleanness, the highest-paid player in the game, the biggest name in the sport, and it’s easy to see why he received the most scrutiny. David Ortiz simply isn’t Alex Rodriguez. The fact that he comes several revelations behind A-Rod and numerous revelations behind the BALCO boys, Bonds and Sheffield and Giambi, is Ortiz’s good fortune.

Sorry, Paul, but after your very eloquent post (with a obviously conflicted ending) this is just re-direction.
Ortiz calls into question everything the 2003 to 2007 Sox accomplished. As a diehard baseball fan, this story is killing me. I was barely able to watch baseball this weekend and instead chose third-runs of Lost. This is the first time we’re truly forced to question entire baseball seasons for the entire sport. It’s no longer about individual players. You can’t deny this. The equivalent for the Yankees and baseball history would be Jeter and Mo.
This is a huge story that’s being suppressed because it shows how much the media fail to do their job. It’s easy to pick one guy as a target and paint him as the villian. But A-Rod never fit because his involvement and use just fit the mold of previous cases (singular star on irrelevant team). What we have now is the PED Sox. They’re the team that shows just how rotten the sport was to it’s core. Exactly like the Black Sox. And that’s a HUGE story. The games we watched and cared about are now rendered meaningless. We were cheated in not just homeruns – single season or career. We were cheated in the most meaningful games possible.
Today, I hate MLB baseball. I’m not sure if it will ever be the same for me again.

“David Ortiz simply isn’t Alex Rodriguez. ”
Paul, this is of course true but Ortiz’s revered position in the one of the two largest fanbases in the entire sport should make it a bigger story than it currently is. He was THE central figure in the biggest storyline of the sport post-2001. I am willing to agree that the story is not as big as A-Rod but i believe that the he has skated by so far without any repercussions which is not acceptable. He isnt being asked/hounded about it and i feel this is a failing of the journalists covering the story. Where are the questions for the GM, the president, and the manager? These are all standard line of questioning for these stories. I realize that there is some degree of fatigue on the story but he hasnt been put on the spot yet like basically every other player has. Fatigue or not, the questions still need to be asked of him and an answer of simple “im blindsided by this news” is not enough. Just because he is the 10th big name to get caught it doesnt mean he should skate by for free.

What were the “repurcussions” for Rodriguez? Serious question.
I am trying to understand what is supposed to happen to Ortiz beyond:
– legacy tarnished
– name forever linked as symbol of “say one thing, do another” attitude
– team’s World Series titles opened up to discussion of legitimacy, fair or not.
All I hear from a lot of non-Sox fans is what sounds like a desire for vengeance. I can’t resolve what Rodriguez has suffered, beyond a deserved hit to his clean reputation He’s still lauded as a great player. He’s not considered as negatively like Bonds. He’s got a huge contract. What has he suffered differently than Ortiz, other than greater media attention at the time of the story? And if these calls for “fairness” are over more hits on Lexis/Nexis, well that seems petty.

Apart from how large a story this should or shouldn’t be, the Nomar/Schilling/etc. suggestion that some people did (or should have) refused testing to trigger a positive and therefore get league-wide testing imposed is totally unbelievable. And saying so is not indicative of cynicism so much as it indicates the use of ones’ faculties – or, in other words, common sense.
To say that because Schilling now says the same as Nomar is totally irrelevant. I’m having trouble finding an analogy so sorry to take one from the world of politics but a lot of people also said that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 9/11. So many people said it in fact that more than half the country apparenly believed it though many who were the most vocal about it and in positions of authority KNEW it to be false and the most cursory investigative journalism would have shown it to be so.
I don’t care if Schilling or anyone else backs Nomar’s ridiculous assertion. If you wanted testing imposed you would have advocated for it vocally. Nick’s post is beautiful for this reason and spot on.
Even if you were to grant the cockamamie explanation that some are shown to test positive because they refused testing because they so wanted testing imposed (followed that so far??) it simply does not jibe with Ortiz’s expressed surprise at “learning” that he tested positive. If he had gone the conscientious objector route what possible reason would he have for not simply stating that right away upon this story breaking? Did he forget that this is what he in fact did back in 2003?
The combination of this story breaking and Ortiz’s implausible production leap from MIN to Boston makes it very clear to all but the most rose-tinted-glass-wearing among us that the guy cheated.
You can argue whether the story about it should get more play, but to give any credence to Nomar’s “possible explanation” for it is the opposite of cynicicm – it is naive head-in-the-sand willful ignorance in the face of all indicators pointing in the opposite direction.

Your point is well taken SF, my frustration mainly stems from the fact that he and the team really havent had to deal with the same level of distraction that this type of story has traditionally caused. I will reiterate that while this is not the same level as A-rod, there hasnt been the seemingly constant stories, national media, etc that other players have experienced. To me this level of distraction to the team is one of the main repercussions that PED users have faced. I feel like Ortiz and his teammates have been largely sheltered from this. You may feel this is about vengeance for YFs and that may be partially true. However, there have been many vocal people from other teams dumping on our own for PED use for years. While you were not part of this, a little bit of schadenfreude is only natural.

Three days ago, SF, you intimated that the media coverage would come. You also tried to defend differences between the two individuals. Now this discussion is “petty” because you don’t like where it’s going? So it’s easier to dismiss?
What is most galling to me is that the stories, a mere five months ago, were about a player but quickly became about a team, even though the team had little to do with the evidence. The New York, Boston, and national media made good money talking about both – player and team. Except the team was largely irrelevant. It was easy (and lazy) to follow that story. Yes, it was the first the broke that nailed a well-known player during his active career. And yes, it was a Yankee. But the problem is that the Yankee identity has never been tied to A-Rod. Why? For the exact reason many YFs haven’t “accepted” him – they’ve never won a championship with him.
With Ortiz, we’re now dealing with a player whose very identity is tied to a team. His core identity to their core identity. Specifically your team. A team whose story was the story for multiple MLB seasons. A team whose 86 year history of underachievement hung like an anchor around their baseball neck. A team who found an unlikely “hero” who sported a goofy grin while killing their greatest nemesis.
A story too good to be true.
Now we’ve got a sympathetic player and a sympathetic fanbase. No matter how much the media fail to do their job today, history won’t be so sympathetic. Either way, that sucks. We cheered for a fiction. And the sport filled its pockets. To this day.
Fuck MLB.

the stories, a mere five months ago, were about a player but quickly became about a team
This is completely untrue beyond the usual morons who tried to pretend the Yankees were the only dirty team in baseball.
Come on. The revelation was when he was on the Rangers, for goodness’ sake. This wasn’t — and isn’t — about the Yankees vs. the Red Sox.

“You can argue whether the story about it should get more play, but to give any credence to Nomar’s “possible explanation” for it is the opposite of cynicicm – it is naive head-in-the-sand willful ignorance in the face of all indicators pointing in the opposite direction.”
I think IH has the tone of my post down. I’ll put it like this. Nomar’s and Schillings’ assertions basically cannot be proven true or false unless some third party says that some of the positive tests were the result of players’ abstaining from the test. Frankly, that seems unbelievable. The cynic in me sees these comments as obviously self-serving revisionist crap. The hopeful optimist sees this as an interesting moral choice made by a few cherubs of justice (“in living color” anyone?). The point to me is that these comments shed no light on the truth of the matter. They just further cynicism and naivete of the skeptic and believer alike.

Exactly Paul but go back and read all the stories, and books, about his effect on the team. Where’s that deluge on Ortiz – a guy who has been so much more central to his team?
Who said it was Yankees vs. Red Sox? It’s about the sport and its history. This is no longer denying certain players from entering the HOF. That was the A-Rod story – same as it ever was. The story has now metastasized before our eyes. And the drive-by mediots don’t know how to handle that. There’s no template for showing how they covered their eyes and ears and mouths for at least a decade and just printed propaganda.

FYI: The 2003 results list the reasons why each player failed. Presumably not giving a sample is listed, or at the very least a specific substance won’t be. Remember, A-Rod was informed which substance they found and that’s the one he copped to.
I’m guessing they didn’t find boli in Ortiz.

I don’t think it is unreasonable Rob to point out as Paul does that a. the more “bombshells” come out that are along the same line (“x tested positive in 2003”), the less each successive bomblet will reverberate and b. A-Rod has been a bigger story both pre-steroids and post-steroids than Ortiz because he has been a (by-far) better all around player/bigger star/higher-paid player/annointed future “clean” HR king/etc.
This does not say anything about whether A-Rod has been unfairly targeted before and after his personal PED-related story broke as you have noted. I don’t think for example that journalists would necessarily have run with a “look at x walking into a hotel with a floosie” story the way they did with A-Rod for example.
I do think the Manny/Ortiz revelations go to the heart of the Red Sox championships in a way that no revelations TO-DATE go to the heart of the Yankee dynasty years. Yes, Pettitte hurt. As for Roger, he came in late in the dynasty and was of very questionable contirbution to the first of the two rings he won with them.
Manny and Ortiz (together with Schilling) were THE story of the Sox championship teams. It really would be equivalent to 2 of Jeter, Mo, O’Neil, Bernie, Posada being outed.
To be clear this to me is not a reason for Ortiz to be any more of a national story as it is reason for a (likely temporary) tilting of the YF-SF scheudenfreude game.
Of course, before YFs get too carried away with the pain of SFs right now, we should remember that a. 2 or more of the Yankee icons noted above might still be fingered and b. if the Yankee success had coincided with the stepping up of testing the way that the Sox success did, is it not just as likely that some of the most central Yankee components to those teams might have already been snared? By peaking just before this whole thing blew up – and then reaching mediocrity as it did (with guys like O’Neill, Cone, etc. retiring in the meantime) – some of the Yankees who were critical to their dynasty-run may simply have escaped the outing.
Pettitte still hurts (me anyway)…

Believe me, I understand the schadenfreude. Who involved in this rivalry wouldn’t? And I also, to an extent, understand the concept of diminishing focus, though in this case (and to my eyes, surfing the web, watching ESPN a good deal these past few days), there has been barely a Sox-related game note or story that hasn’t called attention to Ortiz and Manny, along with numerous references to “tainted championships”. The press coverage has been substantial.
In the end, I don’t really understand what is raising so much ire. It can’t be that the Sox are “escaping”, that their reputation is remaining unsullied amongst this uncovering of dirt. Ortiz’ reputation is irreparably harmed. So is whatever imputed “purity” the Sox’ 2004 and 2007 titles had (to me, a realist, they had no more or no less than any other title for any other team, they were surely “tainted” by drug use), that is all over for all but the dumbest or naive fan.
The damage is substantial. The damage, in fact, is more substantial to Ortiz and the Sox than it is to Major League Baseball, that is what I find so odd about the anger at this site. If anything, the only things left to be damaged are the reputations of individuals and perhaps their teams’ accomplishment. The sport as a whole has little left to lose. The Sox are now lesser, in the eyes of many.

I do think the Manny/Ortiz revelations go to the heart of the Red Sox championships in a way that no revelations TO-DATE go to the heart of the Yankee dynasty years. Yes, Pettitte hurt. As for Roger, he came in late in the dynasty and was of very questionable contirbution to the first of the two rings he won with them.
I remember a rather important double during the 2003 ALCS, one that helped change a season, and ruin a year for a lot of people. Seems like you are forgetting that it’s not just about the World Series, but also how you get there. Maybe if Giambi hadn’t contributed to that win in 2003, the Sox would have gotten their ring (aided by Ortiz and Ramirez, in the year of their failing) a season earlier. It’s all just a treadmill at this point.

I get your point, but all I am going at is championships. Thanks largely to your team (and an only slightly less annoying team of gnats from LA…and literal gnats from Cleveland) the Yankees haven’t done that since 2000. And if I look at the ’96, ’98, ’99, and ’00 Yankees, the core of those teams has not (YET) been hit with as direct a blow as Manny/Ortiz is to the Sox ’04 and ’07 championship teams.
Again, this is not to say they won’t be and even if they never are, I am acknowledging that it might have more to do with timing (Sox rise just as MLB testing rises) than with cleanliness, but I still think it is true.

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