Wait For It… Wait For It… SURPRISE

Joe Torre is in Tampa.  Obvioiusly, this will likely end with him re-signed for at least one more year, making many fans very happy that he is the still the best option to mind the rudder, and certainly playing well to the players that love him so much.  Undoubtedly, many other fans see this as a missed opportunity and further sign that Torre has the Yankees by the short ones.

If you want to clickety-click reload and be one of the first to know when it officially happens, hit refresh on:

Mark Feinsand
Pete Abraham

Woohoo.  Fun way to spend the afternoon waiting for the Sox/Tribe, no?

Update 3:41p: Press conference scheduled for 4:00pm Eastern.

***Update 4:06p: Pete reports: “The Yankees just announced that Joe Torre will not return as manager. He turned down a $5 million deal that included $3 million on incentives.”

228 comments… add one
  • The Angry Puppy is saying the deal is one year with a team option for the second.

    Nick-YF October 18, 2007, 3:39 pm
  • as I said in the other thread, not realizing this had been created:
    Damn. I was really hoping the Yankees would shoot themselves in the foot on this one. Stupid Brian Cashman and his level-headed thinking.
    Things weere a lot more fun when George was in charge.

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 3:41 pm
  • And so begins the final year of Yankee Stadium with an All-Star game and the Joe Torre Farewell Tourâ„¢.
    If next year was already going to be month after month of Yankee hagiography, self-congratulation, and syrupy sentiment, this just ratcheted it up a notch. 2008 is going to be extremely painful for a non-hyperbolist Bostonian living in Yankeeland; the Bronx is going to be like a North Korean Mayday Parade, almost daily.

    SF October 18, 2007, 3:42 pm
  • “the Bronx is going to be like a North Korean Mayday Parade, almost daily.”
    line of the decade

    Nick-YF October 18, 2007, 3:43 pm
  • “the Bronx is going to be like a North Korean Mayday Parade, almost daily.”
    C’mon, wouldn’t it be just PERFECT if they won it all in the final year of the stadium?
    *gives SF a bucket*

    AndrewYF October 18, 2007, 3:43 pm
  • Based on next year’s confluence of events in the Bronx, I am setting the over/under on Yankee curtain calls next year at an astounding 77 (that’s just under one a game, for the non-math savvy), not including a possible post-season. Who wants to be the curtain call accountant?
    (There’s a YFSF tee-shirt in it for any takers…)

    SF October 18, 2007, 3:50 pm
  • I don’t want to be the accountant, but I will put a thundo on the over.

    LocklandSF October 18, 2007, 4:03 pm
  • Joe Torre TURNED DOWN THE OFFER!!!

    Nick-YF October 18, 2007, 4:05 pm
  • “making many fans very happy”
    Once again I am in the minority, LOL.
    SF, I think we should all take a field trip to your office (at least those of us in the tri-state area) and give YOU a curtain call. Were you not given the opportunity to curtain call as a child? There must be a deeper meaning to your hatred of such a silly tradition.

    John - YF (Trisk) October 18, 2007, 4:06 pm
  • Holy crap. Take that George.

    LocklandSF October 18, 2007, 4:10 pm
  • Is this just the biased Soxfan in me or is offering Joe a paycut and an incentive-based contract a MASSIVE “Fuck You!”?

    SF October 18, 2007, 4:10 pm
  • I think Joe took it that way.

    Nick-YF October 18, 2007, 4:11 pm
  • No, he would still be the highest paid manager in the game.

    John - YF (Trisk) October 18, 2007, 4:12 pm
  • And I’d say that Joe turning down that offer is a corresponding “Fuck You” back to Ownership, but for the fact that this offer, if accurate, seemed designed to get Joe to turn it down, thus getting the Yankee Front Office just what it wanted, like many accused the Sox’ front office of doing with Clemens this season.

    SF October 18, 2007, 4:12 pm
  • Joe Torre just walked into Tampa, a la “Half Baked,” and said:
    “F*ck you, f*ck you, f*ck you, you’re cool. F*ck you, f*ck you…”

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 4:12 pm
  • > a MASSIVE “Fuck You!”?
    He still would have been the best-paid manager in the bigs, but yeah, it’s pretty insulting to tell the manager whose team compiled the best record in the last 12 seasons (by 43 games over Atlanta IIRC) that he’s not living up to his wage.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 4:13 pm
  • it was an incentive-laden agreement that would have actually boosted his salary if he made it to the WS next year.
    I think the disrespect came in the waiting and public humiliation.

    Nick-YF October 18, 2007, 4:14 pm
  • Michael Kay just said Joe Torre could be headed to Boston, If Francona’s gets fired from his job. Redsox Fans loves Joe Torre..

    EvilSam_Yf October 18, 2007, 4:14 pm
  • Why would the Sox fire Francona? Michael Kay is reacting emotionally. Ignore him.

    Nick-YF October 18, 2007, 4:16 pm
  • In my mind, the 1-year offer is a much bigger fuck you.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 4:16 pm
  • Only way Torre’s heading to Boston is to replace DeMarlo Hale.

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 4:16 pm
  • What did Joe deserve a paycut for, what does he get from having an incentivized contract? He needed to be incentivized to manage better? What the fuck? The Yankees nickle and diming Torre smacks me as totally classless. Forget the dollar amounts (which are large) and confront the principles. This is an insult to Torre. Good for him and his own principles, though he’ll probably be far classier than the organization he worked for in speaking about what has just transpired.
    Just when people think the Sox have replaced the Yankees at the top of the hate-ometer the Bombers come back and stake their claim. The apples don’t fall far from the tree in the Steinbrenner family.
    Do the Yankees call Torre’s bluff, offer more, or is this really the end?

    SF October 18, 2007, 4:17 pm
  • There are 28 teams in the major leagues who would want Joe Torre as manager.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 4:18 pm
  • I think the disrespect came in the waiting and public humiliation.
    Every single aspect of this thing was insulting. Incentives. What a joke.
    The Yankees suck, indeed, at least with respect to this incident.
    And if Francona is fired I will be livid. He did a fine job this year, and he’s done an even better job in the playoffs. Coming from me, never one of his staunchest supporters, that says a great deal.

    SF October 18, 2007, 4:19 pm
  • SF: I am in complete agreement with you. Totally, 100%. I’m really pissed right now.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 4:19 pm
  • ag – really?
    I guess we’ll find out if Joe Torre can manage a team that isn’t full of superstars..

    Lar October 18, 2007, 4:20 pm
  • I mean, honestly. In most sectors of our society, it’s a slap in the face to simply not receive at least a small raise each year, or in a contract scenario, at least a moderate increase in the next contract. Even employees who are “below expectations” don’t get a pay cut.
    So yeah, the Yankees pretty much told Joe Torre that his 13 straight playoff appearances aren’t good enough to merit even the same level of compensation. I’d say that’s pretty insulting.

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 4:21 pm
  • There’s no way Francona is fired. Consider that he won the division despite half his lineup being injured or underperforming for much of the year.
    Kay, like usual, is talking out his butt.

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 4:22 pm
  • Why don’t we actually wait to hear what actually happened before assigning blame.
    Huge news. Often, the first reaction is not the best one.

    YF October 18, 2007, 4:23 pm
  • Lar, okay, maybe I exaggerated a bit, as there are a couple teams that I would guess are pretty happy with their current skipper, but i’m not exaggerating that much.
    Torre will be well-paid next year, but he will be in a booth, not a dugout, I’m guessing.
    The Yankees fucked this one up big time. At the least, they should have offered him his existing salary, for two years. That would have been honorable.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 4:24 pm
  • In other news: pigs have begun to fly.

    snowballa October 18, 2007, 4:24 pm
  • Mike Franscesa is reporting this like a nuclear bomb is about to go off somewhere.
    Meanwhile, did you hear that loud noise? It’s the sound of NoMaas experiencing a massive orgasm.

    Nick-YF October 18, 2007, 4:25 pm
  • > Why don’t we actually wait to hear what actually happened before assigning blame.
    I understand your point, YF, but assuming the reporting is accurate, but one year, five million is an insult twice over.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 4:26 pm
  • I don’t agree, but I also don’t care enough to get into it too deep. He’s a legend, he did some wonderful things for this franchise. Unfortunately the time comes for all managers and if you are 100% honest with yourself there is no way to let someone go in a NICE way. No matter what the Yankees did here they were going to look bad in some people’s eyes.

    John - YF (Trisk) October 18, 2007, 4:26 pm
  • I think Francona has to seriously fear for his job. Afterall the main reason he was hired was to get Schilling to accept the trade to Boston, with Schilling gone after the season Francona and his idiocy is expendable.

    TJ October 18, 2007, 4:27 pm
  • one of the questions on the conference call: “Were you surprised that Joe rejected such a solid offer?”
    Maybe the press will report it as a solid offer.

    Nick-YF October 18, 2007, 4:28 pm
  • Torre’s old contract was totally out of line for what MLB managers get paid. It was more than double what the second highest manager was getting. I think the pay cut was a reasonable thing to offer. Im shocked he walked away personally.

    Sam-YF October 18, 2007, 4:29 pm
  • > “Were you surprised that Joe rejected such a solid offer?”
    What a malformed, leading question.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 4:29 pm
  • The only thing I can try to equate this with from my own professional standpoint is that if we had a marketing staff and someone on that staff consistently got us to very elite shortlists for projects which we ultimately did not get and then I asked that staff member to take a paycut. And that, from my standpoint, would be utterly insane and unfair. Getting to those shortlists (metaphorically, the “playoffs”) is extremely difficult, even with great resources (“player payroll”). Winning the job (a “World Championship”) is at that point on the partners (“the players”).
    A paycut might be in order if the shortlists weren’t being reached (or termination, for that matter), but getting the job is on me as a business owner, not on my employee. That’s not to say that employees shouldn’t be replaced, but simply not re-signing Joe in this case might have been a more dignified remedy than the route the Yankees went.
    I know this is a stretch, but if this reporting is accurate then Torre was being insulted, and in a big way. I know it is hard to look at the basic numbers (millions of dollars!) and say that, but on principle I see it no other way. I don’t think I could ever treat my employees this way.

    SF October 18, 2007, 4:29 pm
  • Michael Kay is broadcasting on EPSN news…
    Here’s Tony in Long Island: “Boo to Joe Torre” Tony thinks Joe Torre turning down/turning up his nose at the $ will hurt his legacy with Yankee fans. In closing Good Riddance says Tony.

    John - YF (Trisk) October 18, 2007, 4:30 pm
  • @Nick YF: I was thinking the same thing. The way Mike is repeating it, you would think the President was assassinated or a bomb went off. It’s so funny.

    snowballa October 18, 2007, 4:31 pm
  • Amen Sam, you are 100% right.

    John - YF (Trisk) October 18, 2007, 4:31 pm
  • if you are 100% honest with yourself there is no way to let someone go in a NICE way. No matter what the Yankees did here they were going to look bad in some people’s eyes.
    The latter is true, Trisk, but the former is most definitely not accurate. I say this as a business owner who employs 11 people. There are good ways to let people go and bad ways, from my standpoint. This, if the reporting is accurate (and I take YF’s point as a good one, about waiting for the full story), was not very dignified. The least you can do when you try to remove someone is do it with dignity.

    SF October 18, 2007, 4:32 pm
  • Michael Kay makes a great point…”You can’t give a 68 year old manager a 3 year deal, so calm down with the uproar over the length.”

    John - YF (Trisk) October 18, 2007, 4:33 pm
  • Why don’t we actually wait to hear what actually happened before assigning blame.
    I’m not sure what we need to wait on. The Yankees made the announcement during the press conference. I’m guessing it’ll take a little bit for details of the negotiations themselves to leak out, but I’m not sure we need those to 1. Know that the Yankees asked a championship-caliber to take a base-pay cut 2. after stringing him along for weeks. The Yankees tried to screw over Joe Torre, and Torre just flipped them a big ol’ bird. Good for him.

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 4:33 pm
  • > Torre’s old contract was totally out of line for what MLB managers get paid
    The Yankees are the richest, highest revenue, highest profile team in the majors, and lead the leagues in attendance.
    Top six 2007 managerial salaries:
    Joe Torre, NYY $7.5 million
    Lou Piniella, CHC $3.5 million
    Bobby Cox, ATL $3 million
    Tony La Russa, STL $2.8 million
    Mike Scioscia, LAA $2 million
    Jim Leyland, DET $2 million
    It’s farcical to think that he is overpaid in the Yankees business system.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 4:33 pm
  • This was a slap in the face, any way you cut it, and I’m certain the players will see it that way too.
    Interesting… The players…

    LocklandSF October 18, 2007, 4:34 pm
  • That’s my biggest concern, Lockland.

    Nick-YF October 18, 2007, 4:34 pm
  • Amen Gerb, you are 100% right.

    SF October 18, 2007, 4:35 pm
  • In this instance how do you do it with dignity, that’s where I am not following.

    John - YF (Trisk) October 18, 2007, 4:35 pm
  • > Michael Kay makes a great point…”You can’t give a 68 year old manager a 3 year deal, so calm down with the uproar over the length.”
    Why is that a great point?

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 4:35 pm
  • Goodbye Arod, goodbye Mo, goodbye JoPo…
    A guy can dream, right?

    LocklandSF October 18, 2007, 4:37 pm
  • Incentives are offered to a manager who can’t pitch or bat. That’s fair. Why not give Joe extra cash if the mean ocean temperature around the world goes down next year, as he’s got about as much control over that as he does over Derek Jeter’s Louisville Slugger with men on base.

    SF October 18, 2007, 4:37 pm
  • John, I’m not asking them to do it with dignity. I’m asking them not to be chickenshit. If you don’t want him back, don’t ask him back. This play by the Yankees brass is truly PATHETIC and strikes me as probably the WORST thing they could have done.
    If they announced they weren’t inviting him back, I would say they were making a mistake, because I think Torre’s done his job, but I wouldn’t think it was chickenshit.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 4:37 pm
  • SF: But if there was another marketer that would do the same thing at half the cost, I think you’d reconsider. And let’s remember, Joe’s not going to be able to manage forever. So from my understanding, the contract offered made him the highest paid manager in baseball, and i’m guessing the incentive ladder wasn’t that crazy. if no other manager is pulling more than 4 or 5 million, how can randy levine and lonn trust (i’m guessing these 2 money guys played a part here) justify giving him as much as 3 million more? it’s a business, and 3 million bucks is BIG money in any business. joe’s agent surely pushed his contract when he had leverage; now comes the push back. the end was going to come sooner or later…..l in the postgame conference after the final alds loss, it looked to me like torre wasn’t interested in continuing…..we’ll see!

    YF October 18, 2007, 4:38 pm
  • It’s a great point because it shows you that the 1 year deal was not the F You that you thought it was. If you want to get fired up over the $, go ahead, but the length that’s not something to get fired up about. How many managers in this day and age manage until they are 71?

    John - YF (Trisk) October 18, 2007, 4:38 pm
  • “That’s fair. Why not give Joe extra cash if the mean ocean temperature around the world goes down next year, as he’s got about as much control over that as he does over Derek Jeter’s Louisville Slugger with men on base.”
    Well, then does it make sense to pay a manager $7 million a year in the first place? Aren’t you paying a manager for results?

    Nick-YF October 18, 2007, 4:39 pm
  • In this instance how do you do it with dignity, that’s where I am not following.
    This one is easy, for even a Soxfan:
    “The Yankees organization would like to thank Joe Torre for his dedication and service to the team. Without him, we would not have had the best team in baseball for nearly a decade and a half. We wouldn’t have four additional World Championships. Our city wouldn’t have had an inspirational man as the face of the franchise these last thirteen years. But teams change and evolve, and this year’s influx of youth has prompted us to make a change in the dugout. To that end, we will begin a manager’s search for the 2008 Yankees.
    In recognition of Joe’s service to the team, we will be enshrining him in Memorial Park on Opening Day, 2008.”
    Not so hard, right?

    SF October 18, 2007, 4:40 pm
  • Can’t see how that’s a bad or even unfair offer:
    2008: 5 million base (still highest in the game), 1 million each for winning ALDS, ALCS, and WS.
    2009: Option at 8 million guaranteed if they won in 2008.
    They were giving the man an great way to walk out, and at a great salary. Hard to see that as an insult, especially after his last contract.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 4:40 pm
  • Percentage of manager’s salary to the total team payroll:
    NYY: 3.9 percent
    CHC: 3.5 percent
    ATL: 3.4 percent
    STL: 3.1 percent
    LAA: 1.8 percent
    DET: 2.1 percent
    Assuming static payroll, the Yankees’ offer would have dropped Torre to 2.6 percent of payroll — or lower than Piniella, Cox and LaRussa.

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 4:40 pm
  • Now they risk losing Posada, Mo, Pettitte and A-Rod. I would say that this will most likely cause Posada to leave for sure. Will the Yankees really offer Posada $42m over the next 3 years? They are really going to have to overpay to keep all of these guys now.
    Joe’s basically was getting a $1 million pay cut because you assume we make the post-season….and could make MORE than he did last year. Why the f*ck should we pay our manager, who we all agree has many flaws, $5million more than ANY other manager in the league? Get real….nothing wrong was done by the Yankees and if you believe for two seconds that Brian Cashman was not in contact with Joe Torre throughout the entire process,. Joe Torre wasn’t left wondering what’s going on, Cashman repeatedly said he had been in contact with Torre.

    EvilSam-Yf October 18, 2007, 4:41 pm
  • > justify giving him as much as 3 million more?
    Because as a percentage of the revenue of the franchise, it’s a pittance. We’re talking about a team that pays luxury taxes treble the amount of the total payroll of some teams.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 4:42 pm
  • I don’t see it as they didn’t want him back. From everyone’s account, even the Red Sox own Peter Gammons, Levine and the Yankee brass wanted Torre back. They thought the offer they made was fair. If you listen to the press conference they seem shocked, I don’t think this was anything other then a genuine effort to bring him back. But I respect your opinion.

    John - YF (Trisk) October 18, 2007, 4:42 pm
  • Money talks –> Mariano, Jorge, A-Rod

    Pete October 18, 2007, 4:43 pm
  • > How many managers in this day and age manage until they are 71?
    How many teams have a better record in the last 12 seasons?

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 4:43 pm
  • The Yankees established their own payscale with Torre, so they made their bed. Cutting his pay, however big it was relative to the rest of the league (or the rest of the job pool), is irrelevant when dealing with a specific, previously retained employee on an individual level.
    As to YF, about “if there was someone available for half the price” the answer is no, and the business-related reasons are too numerous to get into. That’s hyper-simplification, but I don’t want to end up turning YFSF into a low-grade Wharton.

    SF October 18, 2007, 4:44 pm
  • Pete, good to see you apply the same principles to this that you did to the Sox with Clemens. You’re a raging hypocrite.

    SF October 18, 2007, 4:45 pm
  • I don’t understand how NOT asking him back is better then ASKING him back. I don’t think this ends nearly as badly as you are making it out to seem. This man will go into the HOF as a Yankee manager, he will end up in monument park. I don’t think this is going to put a damper on any of that.

    John - YF (Trisk) October 18, 2007, 4:45 pm
  • “The Yankees established their own payscale with Torre, so they made their bed.”
    George established the payscale. His sons are in power now.

    Nick-YF October 18, 2007, 4:45 pm
  • Has anyone considered that maybe the value wasnt why he said no. Maybe he didnt want to be back in this position next October not knowing whats gonna happen, having all the questions.
    Perhaps he said no because it wasnt a guaranteed multi year deal.

    TJ October 18, 2007, 4:46 pm
  • For the record, I agree with John.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 4:47 pm
  • I do think the Yankees did exactly what Pete was accusing the Red Sox of doing with Clemens — offering just enough to claim they were making a fair offer, and just enough to make sure they could get a new manager next season.
    “Levine and the Yankee brass” may have wanted Torre back, but as we all know, they aren’t the only ones making the decisions…

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 4:47 pm
  • AG you are missing the point, you are assuming that Joe wanted a 3 year deal and that by offering him a 1 year deal they slighted him. I can see the money being a slight, but not the length. I am not saying he couldn’t manage at 71, the real question is would he WANT to manage at 71. Joe is a baseball genius, I don’t think anyone would argue that. I just don’t see the uproar.

    John - YF (Trisk) October 18, 2007, 4:48 pm
  • Trisk:
    I guess I just have a different sense of this as a business owner. So I can understand exactly how an employee might react to an offer like this, in principle. I would imagine that were I to do what the Yankees did it would mean that I’d be ok with the employee coming back, but not at all surprised or unhappy if they didn’t. In fact, I’d expect the latter, which is why I might choose to offer something like this. This is the kind of offer, in principle, that you give to someone who fills space competently but not with accomplishment, someone who can be easily replaced.

    SF October 18, 2007, 4:48 pm
  • Paul, that’s an interesting post regarding managerial salary in reference to team payroll, but I don’t think it’s the right metric. I think it needs to be referenced against actual team revenue (or maybe profit, but that ain’t happening because the books are cooked..who believes the Yankees LOSE money?) but like SF said, it’s probably not a good idea to pretend this is business school.
    Bad play, Yankees.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 4:49 pm
  • Torre will tell the truth, too. He will say this wasn’t about the money (because in the end, millions are millions, and he’s already rich). But what he won’t say is that it was about what the money structure meant.

    SF October 18, 2007, 4:50 pm
  • Amazing drama. Good for Cashman et al for trying to make an offer that is within the realm of financial sensibility and still by far the highest salary in baseball managing circles.
    Good for Torre in turning down an offer and walking away from a great job when he feels he has been disespected. Incidentally, if Steinbrenner does not make his obnoxious crack last week followed by days of waiting, I am not sure Joe feels nearly as disrespected by the offer that was made to him.
    SF’s take on how the Yankees should announce this is spot on.
    Listening to Cashman talk about this on 660AM right now…

    IronHorse (yf) October 18, 2007, 4:51 pm
  • SF –
    What? The Sox offered less (prorated and total) than the Astros paid the previous year.
    The Yankees were keeping him installed as the highest paid in the game. And if the team performed as it’s expected, he ends up with a nice hefty raise.
    Hardly an insult to me. The cases couldn’t be more different.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 4:51 pm
  • AG, I’m not sure I agree with referencing team revenue to guage the fairness of an offer or not. Should a replacement-level player on the Yanks get double the money another replacement level player would make on another team? You do have to factor in performance and results. Now, I’m fine with the job Torre did. He’s a classy guy. But I can see the argument against him being the best manager or even an elite manager.

    Nick-YF October 18, 2007, 4:53 pm
  • He was still the highest paid manager in baseball. I don’t want to hear this shit that they didn’t offer him enough. They gave him more than enough of an offer and he said no. Its on him. Its not on the Yankees. He said no. The Yankees made a lucrative contract offer and he said no. They gave him way more than he deserved and he said no. Thats it.
    The Yankees did nothing wrong. It’s basically at least $6 million for this year and there’s no guarantee he’d be gone if he didn’t make it to the World Series. Just making it gives him a 2 year/$16 million contract. I think the Yankees did all they could. He would still be making almost twice what any manager in baseball made. If it’s about the money, good riddance and thanks for the memories.

    EvilSam-Yf October 18, 2007, 4:53 pm
  • SF: I just don’t think the parallels between your business and the multi-million dollar resigning of a NYY manager are strong enough to bare relevance here. Certainly Trost and Levine and Cashman have pretty solid business credentials. I think it’s kind of bogus. Torre turned down $5-plus million to manage the Yanks. Huge amount of money, not counting the incentives. The whole “percentage of payroll/revenue/value” issue is meaningless. It’s the hard dollar value in comparison with the market for that service. I’m really sorry to see Joe leave, but I’m not ready to cast stones either. I want to hear exactly what happened.

    YF October 18, 2007, 4:55 pm
  • John, perhaps I am missing the point of your argument. I am re-reading your comments because I’m not trying to dismiss what you are saying. However, this comes back to a point I made many days ago in another thread: if the Yankees want to make a change because he didn’t make it past the ALDS (this or previous years), I can respect that, but SAY SO. If the Yankees want to save money, I can respect that, but SAY SO. But if he managed his (broken-ass, out of his design, pitching staff) team to a record within two games of the best in the bigs, why ask him to take a 33% pay cut? Either look elsewhere or offer him a salary in continuance with his existing pay grade.
    And if it is about the money, that’s a pile of crap. True crap.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 4:56 pm
  • I’m not a Torre supporter as a manager, but I still have the utmost respect for him as a person. The guy exudes class and dignity and grace. My heart breaks for him. I do think it was time for a change, but it’s still bittersweet. The organization is losing a man who has meant so much to so many.
    Good luck Joe.

    EvilSam_yf October 18, 2007, 4:56 pm
  • No matter what else happens, it will be very very weird and hard not to see Joe in that dugout and in the post-game interviews next year. I’ll very much miss him.
    Next year is shaping up to feature a VERY different-looking Yankee team.
    The one thing I would have prefered to see the Yankees do is offer a couple years rather than one. You either want the guy or not. But I really don’t have much of a problem with what either the Yankees or Joe have done here, except Steinbrenner’s public slap in the face last week.

    IronHorse (yf) October 18, 2007, 4:57 pm
  • Pete, you are a hypocrite. End of story. You were on the case of the Sox for offering Clemens less than he made the prior season (which the Yankees just did with Torre). The Sox had still offered to make Clemens the highest paid pitcher in the game (like Torre with the Yanks). Yet the Sox FO is conniving, manipulative, while the Yankees FO did nothing wrong.
    Hypocrite. Get used to the tag.

    SF October 18, 2007, 4:57 pm
  • Exactly John.
    I have no doubt that Torre thinks he’s been disrespected. But I don’t think he’s in a position to complain, especially since he’ll cash in next year.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 4:57 pm
  • I respect your view point AG, SF and Paul, but I don’t agree. You make very good points, but I just don’t think this was a token offer, I think they genuinely wanted him back.

    John - YF (Trisk) October 18, 2007, 4:57 pm
  • USA TODAY with a nice cheeky headline:
    Report: Torre declines to lead Yankees to another glorious failure
    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/yankees/2007-10-18-torre_N.htm?csp=34

    SF October 18, 2007, 4:58 pm
  • My God, this is like a feeding frenzy. I agree with YF maybe the reasonable among us should wait until more details come out before passing such harsh judgement?

    Andrews October 18, 2007, 4:58 pm
  • *jawfloor*
    (Just read the news. Am unable to process/comment further at this time.)

    Jackie (SF) October 18, 2007, 4:59 pm
  • for all we know he could have walked away after a 20 minute tirade from the Boss that came before the offer came. Its hard to know what happened behind close doors.
    I think its also not accurate to say that the yankees knew that he would turn this offer down. They made them an offer based on a collective decision they made.

    Sam-YF October 18, 2007, 4:59 pm
  • Certainly Trost and Levine and Cashman have pretty solid business credentials. I think it’s kind of bogus.
    Oh, I agree, they knew exactly what they were doing. I stand by my earlier comment, this one:
    http://yanksfansoxfan.typepad.com/ysfs/2007/10/wait-for-it-wai.html#comment-86870898

    SF October 18, 2007, 5:00 pm
  • SF –
    So now you’re going ad hominen. Really, way to set the example.
    State you case man. Mine is:
    What will the market bear?
    Clemens was offered less than going rate. You’re telling me that Torre is going to get even 5 million/year any where else?

    Pete October 18, 2007, 5:00 pm
  • AG:
    -I don’t think the offer was a token offer. He was still the highest paid manager in the game. I think when it’s all said and done Torre will tell you that the money wasn’t the reason he said no. It was probably related more to the constant uncertainty of his job and feeling like he had to justify his accomplishments.
    -I don’t think the length is an issue either. I think at 68 a 1 year deal with options is the way to go. You lose your passion for this job very quickly and I don’t think Joe had beef with that, but I am sure he will elaborate eventually.
    That’s my point.

    John - YF (Trisk) October 18, 2007, 5:01 pm
  • Your wish is my command, AG:
    Managerial salary as percentage of team revenue:
    NYY: 2.5 percent
    CHC: 1.8 percent
    ATL: 1.6 percent
    STL: 1.5 percent
    LAA: 1.1 percent
    DET: 1.2 percent
    (BOS: 0.7 percent)
    Proposed 2008 Torre salary: 1.7 percent.

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 5:02 pm
  • Pete, this isn’t “ad hominem”. Your positions are hypocritical. Hence, you are a hypocrite.

    SF October 18, 2007, 5:02 pm
  • So then, Paul and AG, would you argue that it’s a good idea for the Yanks to pay above market value for all their players?

    Nick-YF October 18, 2007, 5:03 pm
  • > Should a replacement-level player on the Yanks get double the money another replacement level player would make on another team?
    Nick, that’s an interesting point, and a lot of anti-Torre pundits will take this tack. I just don’t see how you can equate a Joe Torre to a “replacement level player.”
    And if we are going into the business aspect, ask yourself honestly, if your company had a year of record-setting revenue,, yet asked you to lop 1/3 off your gross pay, would you accept?

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 5:03 pm
  • Hey SF, why don’t you play by your own rules and stop the name calling? It’s not cool.

    Andrews October 18, 2007, 5:04 pm
  • “I think its also not accurate to say that the yankees knew that he would turn this offer down. They made them an offer based on a collective decision they made.”
    Peter Gammons just made the same point on ESPN News. He is reporting that the Yankees indeed wanted Torre back.

    John - YF (Trisk) October 18, 2007, 5:04 pm
  • Good stuff Paul.. What’s the source?

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 5:04 pm
  • “So then, Paul and AG, would you argue that it’s a good idea for the Yanks to pay above market value for all their players?”
    Good question.

    Andrews October 18, 2007, 5:05 pm
  • let’s acknowledge one thing: George Steinbrenner is no longer making decisions. Gary Sheffield is not walking through that door (at the expense of Vlad not coming to NY). That said, Hal and Hank did not give Torre the $7 mil, which is way above the market value for managers everywhere. George did.

    Nick-YF October 18, 2007, 5:06 pm
  • These are not the October headlines/drama I had hoped for the Yankees to make.
    Aren’t we supposed to be focused on the Sox being down 3-1?

    John - YF (Trisk) October 18, 2007, 5:06 pm
  • How about this: if the Sox don’t offer Tito a raise this year, even if they lose the ALCS (or the Series), I will be extremely unhappy. If they offer him the same amount as this year, or less with incentives I will find it incredibly insulting. FORGET THE DOLLARS, just for a moment. I know this is very hard to do. But sometimes there are principles at stake, not just Benjamins. If the Sox come out and say “hey, you won us a Series, but you haven’t won one in a few years, and we want to incentivize you to do so”, if I were Tito, I’d tell them to screw off. And I wouldn’t blame Tito if that happens and he walks.
    I will remain consistent on this front. A reasonable offer, regardless of the total money, is not less money with incentives to accomplish difficult tasks, and as we have seen winning playoff series’ are not exactly foregone conclusions, so the idea that the incentives are “automatics” is absurd. They asked Torre to take a 30% paycut. If they wanted him back, they didn’t want him back very badly.

    SF October 18, 2007, 5:07 pm
  • > market value
    Bigger pie, bigger helping for the players who are the product sold.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 5:07 pm
  • Convenient that you still haven’t stated your case.
    Besides, the Clemens deal was for less than one-year. Torre obviously wants something for many years.
    Clemens was offered less than market value. Torre was offered a contract that could get him double the next guy.
    Sox were competing against other teams. The Yanks had no competition.
    Sox would be bringing a guy back to end his career and break Cy Young’s record. Yanks were winding down a 12 year relationship.
    I frankly can’t fathom how you can see any similarlity.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 5:07 pm
  • Joe has made tons of money over the years, and a 2 million dollar paycut is insulting to the man? F*ck him.
    If you are a stock broker making 2 times more than any other stock broker in history and your company tanks for 4 straight years and they ask you to take a pay cut but still be the highest paid in the business, that’s an insult?
    Francessa needs to shut his mouth because he’s making a fool of himself. If I didn’t know the numbers of the contract and I just heard him talk, I’d think he got the offer of 1 year at $3 million with the stipulation that no world series means he’s gone

    EvilSam-Yf October 18, 2007, 5:08 pm
  • The Yankees in fact DO pay above market for a great deal of their top players, thus their high payroll. Is Torre not one of the top managers in the game? Saying he would still have been the highest-paid manager ignores the resources of his employer, which is a significant part of all negotiations.
    Forbes magazine’s annual baseball financial report is the source, AG. Well, that and my calculator at work to do the math from your list of managerial salaries.

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 5:09 pm
  • > Aren’t we supposed to be focused on the Sox being down 3-1?
    I look forward to watching tonight’s game. But that’s not until 5p my time. ;)

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 5:09 pm
  • I’m not sure the differences at 68 and 71 are huge amongst managers, and I doubt even Brian Cashman would tell you that that is the reason they offered only a 1-year contract.
    On the money issue, I’ll have to echo many previous sentiments. There’s no indication Joe Torre has become a lesser or better manager. Why should he be taking less money? The sons are in charge, but their father set Joe Torre’s pay rate, and asking him to take less makes them look like tremendous jackasses. Any executive in an organization would turn tail in a similar business situation.
    The Yankees have tanked for four years? They’ve made the postseason each of those years. Is it fair to blame Joe Torre for combinations of bad luck and poor performances from his players? Poor pitching staffs he’s handed?

    QuoSF October 18, 2007, 5:10 pm
  • > still be the highest paid in the business, that’s an insult?
    Yeah, I see it all clearly now the owners deserve to get the money.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 5:10 pm
  • Remember too that this situation is not happening in a vacuum.
    In other words, MESSAGE TO A-ROD & SCOTT BORAS:
    Reigning in our spending is a serious commitment of ours.
    We do not fear legends leaving. We do not fear public outcry. We are not going to negotiate with you if you opt out.
    You know our phone number.

    IronHorse (yf) October 18, 2007, 5:11 pm
  • and your company tanks for 4 straight years
    Wow, that’s a bit extreme.

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 5:11 pm
  • It’s all about the dollars! How can you even try to leave the dollars out?
    And Torre will get no more than 4 or 5 million from any other team. He’ll get more years, and that where he differs with what the Yankees wanted to do.
    Hard to fault them there. If anything, a comparison would be with Damon. And I bet if they could, the Sox would overpay for Torre. And there I might be a hypocrite!

    Anonymous October 18, 2007, 5:11 pm
  • SF the only part where I could see your point being true is the incentives. I don’t think the total $ amount is insulting, but I could see where Joe would feel insulted about the incentives. I still think it’s much deeper then this, but regardless let’s not make this out to be the death of Mother Theresa. Joe Torre was a good manager, he gave us a lot to be happy about over his time here. For that I am truly grateful, but he decided not to come back/was let go, time goes on.

    John - YF (Trisk) October 18, 2007, 5:11 pm
  • A big point is being missed here, and that’s about “market”. “Market” is something of an irrelevancy, in this case. That’s because Torre had a payscale that was established with the Yankees. And he continued to accomplish for the team, to excel. He had established a track record that had determined his pay-rate within the organization. And the organization told him he was no longer worth what he had established as his pay-rate within the organization. They asked him to accept a salary that implied that he was regressing as an employee, that his utility was reduced. That may, in fact, have been true. But to ignore this fact is ridiculous. The Yankees made an offer to Torre that devalued him, literally.

    SF October 18, 2007, 5:11 pm
  • Torre obviously wants something for many years.
    How do you know what Torre wanted? You only know what he didn’t want.
    And I apologize for the name-calling. Still, I find your position hypocritical, and I should have left it at that.

    SF October 18, 2007, 5:12 pm
  • “And if we are going into the business aspect, ask yourself honestly, if your company had a year of record-setting revenue,, yet asked you to lop 1/3 off your gross pay, would you accept?”
    good question.
    One that I’ll never be able to answer as a public school teacher unless somehow the privatizers in Washington totally reform the school system and make schools into product-producing plants.

    Nick-YF October 18, 2007, 5:13 pm
  • Reigning in our spending is a serious commitment of ours.
    We do not fear legends leaving. We do not fear public outcry. We are not going to negotiate with you if you opt out.

    That’s all well and good, IH, but if the Yankees begin 2008 with no Torre and no A-Rod, I will indeed be looking forward to next year’s AL East race. And so will everyone else in the AL East — except the Yankees.

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 5:13 pm
  • And by the way, the Yanks are making the statement that Torre’s performance is part of why they haven’t won in October. I think there’s something to that.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 5:14 pm
  • Quo, I am not saying they only offered him 1 year BECAUSE he’s 68. What I am saying is originally part of the outrage here was over the length of the deal. I don’t think JOE cared about length at 68, I think there were much more important factors.
    PS- I did not intend my comment to be “Snarky” (as AG would say) about the 3-1 thing. I in fact believe that this series will go 7, I just don’t like drama and the focus this puts on the Yankees that’s all.

    John - YF (Trisk) October 18, 2007, 5:15 pm
  • What? The Market is the only thing that matters. If you’re going to overpay your competitors, you better have a damn good reason. And in this case, the Yanks don’t think it’s necessary. I agree with IH (shocking!) that if they stick to that principle, A-Rod is getting a signal too.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 5:17 pm
  • To be honest, Trisk, I don’t think you can say with confidence either way in terms of whether Torre wanted multiple years or not. Under the terms of what they offered, I think he still would have walked away if given 3 years guaranteed of that.
    Had he been offered $10M for one season, I’m not sure he would’ve taken that either. I get the sense he’s extremely tired of being under the gun. In that organization, I’m not sure a multi-year deal would even help you from feeling that way. But it’s a start.

    Anonymous October 18, 2007, 5:18 pm
  • Cripes. Typekey sucks. -QuoSF.
    Aka: Anon to Trisk is me.

    Anonymous October 18, 2007, 5:18 pm
  • What? The Market is the only thing that matters.
    That’s true if you consider his current salary and recent performance as part of the market. If that’s the case, then the market should have stayed the same or risen slightly for Torre, not been slashed.

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 5:19 pm
  • SF –
    Apology accepted. But you still haven’t stated your case for why there’s even a semblance of similarity to the Clemens deal. Damon, though, I’d take that, but obviously at a much smaller scale, even though the dollar percentage is probably the same. Would the Sox, or any team, sign Torre for 4 years at 6 million?

    Pete October 18, 2007, 5:21 pm
  • Purely speculation on my part Quo, but as you say there was a bigger reason why he said no other then length.

    John - YF (Trisk) October 18, 2007, 5:21 pm
  • To repeat: the Yankees made an offer to Torre that devalued him, literally.
    They made him an offer, now public to some extent, that both devalued him within the organization and on the free market.
    The Yankee front office knew EXACTLY what it was doing.

    Anonymous October 18, 2007, 5:23 pm
  • “That’s true if you consider his current salary and recent performance as part of the market.”
    Why does considering his current salary necessarily mean he should keep his salary at the same rate or go higher? Older players take pay cuts all the time (Wake, Mussina for instance). And his recent performance according to some has not been as good as his earlier one (when his teams won 4 world series).

    Nick-YF October 18, 2007, 5:23 pm
  • Torre doesn’t have a market tested salary. This year he will. What will that be?

    Pete October 18, 2007, 5:23 pm
  • Pete:
    One team makes offer to potential employee that a fan deems as a foregone conclusion of rejection. Fan attacks team for making insincere effort at signing player, despite the fact that signing would make player highest paid at his position in all of baseball, even though it is a paycut.
    Second team makes offer to manager that is a paycut from prior year, though it would make said manager highest paid at position in the league. Fan lauds offer as “fair”, justified. No criticism of insincerity of front office.

    SF October 18, 2007, 5:26 pm
  • I’m going to come out sounding possibly like a journalist here Nick, but what they were really asking him to take was a ‘respect cut’.
    I’m embarassed to have typed that.

    QuoSF October 18, 2007, 5:26 pm
  • again, the thing that I worry about is how Jorge, Andy and Mo perceive this situation.

    Nick-YF October 18, 2007, 5:27 pm
  • AG: I understand your point re: the Yankees having a separate scale for things since they are in a separate league in terms of income, but this is also exacly what Cashman has been trying to rectify. So even if they have a larger collection of high-paid players, they can say they are not paying any one of them well above what that player (or manager in this case) could get with another team. If they don’t establish at least a semblance of that reputation, they can simply be fleeced forever. As I noted above, this negotiation with Torre and every other negotiation is done both in itself and as a message to all future negotiation partners that this is how the Yankees are doing business. The only truly crappy part in my view is the George-crack during the ALDS.
    On a larger point about Torre’s greatness, just as Clemens got his first ring with NY on a team that frankly did not need him to win that year (unlike his second year, when they relied much more on him), Torre was a WORSE THAN MEDIOCRE manager until he arrived in NY and inherited this team. Did he do great managing them? Yes. But the appreciation for what individual players and managers bring to this particular Yankee team needs to be tempered by an understanding that every one of them has also benefited from joining a Yankee team with this owner and management and each of them has been given as good an opportunity to succeed as any other players or managers in the game.

    IronHorse (yf) October 18, 2007, 5:27 pm
  • By the way, I have no doubt that the Yanks are taking a Sox in 2004 approach. The difference is they didn’t just win the Series. And that’s a little different for me – keeping a championship club together versus trying to fix something that wasn’t working they way they wanted.
    Yanks will offer their determined market value to A-Rod, Jorge, and Mo. I’m sure they’re prepared to let them walk and rebuild around the youngsters. It’s not a bad way to go as they profit from the guaranteed attendance at closing Yankee Stadium and opening the new park. And obviously the Yankees will thinking about a transition, regardless.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 5:29 pm
  • > his recent performance according to some has not been as good as his earlier one (when his teams won 4 world series)
    Again, referencing earlier posts I’ve made, if that’s part of the job description, so be it. If his job is to make sure that the team is in the post, I think he has fulfilled that qualification.
    I hated Shaughnessy’s article regarding “where to assign blame” (Francona’s fault?!) when maybe the only thing that can be said is that the Tribe is _on_ right now, and in a short series, you can’t wave your magic wand and guarantee victory.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 5:31 pm
  • And his recent performance according to some has not been as good as his earlier one (when his teams won 4 world series).
    And that’s the crux of the debate, isn’t it? Is it Torre’s fault the Yankees haven’t won a World Series since 2001? But by the same token, is there any manager who’s taken his team to the playoffs every single year since 2001?
    If Torre is still the most successful manager in the game, which he is by far, lowering his salary makes no sense, unless maybe you’re wanting him to reject your offer.
    In fact, one could argue — I’m sure he would — that his success since 2001 alone entitles him to be the highest-paid manager in the game. The Yankees’ offer, relative to the market they’ve set for their own employees, was not only a pay cut, it was dropping him out of that spot as highest-paid in the game.

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 5:32 pm
  • Pete, re: you and I agreeing – haven’t you and I clashed only once, though admittedly rather recently and nastily? I’m glad you are not a YF only because you bash your own team alot, but other than that and the last game blog, I don’t have any beef with you.

    IronHorse (yf) October 18, 2007, 5:32 pm
  • The guy turns down a $5 million offer for the best job in the world, and it’s the Yankees’ fault?
    The team is not named the Joe Torres. Torre is a member – a respected member, true, which is why he would still be the best-paid manager in the game, and why they offered him the job – of the Yankees, but he is not the entirety of the team. I would have been far more insulting if they didn’t even offer him a job. And it’s funny seeing the Sox fans hem and haw over ‘penny-pinching’, considering the team they root for.

    AndrewYF October 18, 2007, 5:32 pm
  • Sorry, SF, I just don’t see the similarity at all. Besides all the reasons I’ve stated, the Sox knew they were going to get outbid. The Yankees set the constraints for walking away.
    The Sox had absolutely no intention of signing Clemens. The Yankees were willing to re-sign Torre under a fair contract, after he hasn’t met expectations for 7 years.
    Like I said, a better similarity is the Damon negotiations. Lots of differences still, but more similar than Clemens.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 5:35 pm
  • I agree with Andrews. The yankees assigned a value to what they currrently see for Joe’s services. Joe didnt agree that was the value he was worth to them. Thats the way it goes. I dont blame either party in this situation. I think pinning it all on either one really doesnt represent the story fully. This was a split that was destined to come at some point and that point is now today.

    Sam-YF October 18, 2007, 5:36 pm
  • And that’s a little different for me – keeping a championship club together versus trying to fix something that wasn’t working they way they wanted.
    Here we go again. The Sox abandoned their philosophy before the 2004 season and went after Schilling because they knew ’04 was likely that club’s last chance to win it all. They were aging and peaking, about to collectively begin the decline that occurred in the second half of 2005. Dismantling the team was prudent and in hindsight correct (Damon’s been hurt and ineffective, Pedro’s missed a full season, Mueller and Foulke have retired, Nixon and Millar are bench players).
    Ripping on the Sox for “dismantling” a team that won it all but then had significant problems with age and injury the very next year and whose players have continued those trends every year since just makes no sense to me. At all.

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 5:37 pm
  • “was not only a pay cut, it was dropping him out of that spot as highest-paid in the game.”
    At the base 5 mil amount, he would still have been the highest paid in the game.
    If you’re so concerned about this issue, where is the outrage over the relatively small amount the sox, the team with the 2nd highest payroll, pay Francona – the man who led the team to its first WS crown in 86 years? 1.65 million from a team with a 148 million dollar payroll?

    Andrews October 18, 2007, 5:39 pm
  • Steve Phillips is siding with the Sox fans here.
    I feel very comfortable with my opinions.

    AndrewYF October 18, 2007, 5:40 pm
  • Much more importantly than all of the above:
    LaRussa or Mattingly? Or another?
    I strongly feel they will go for LaRussa, feeling Mattingly isn’t ready yet and following Mattingly’s own “I am not ready yet”. Know that rankles many YFs here. Compelling stuff.

    IronHorse (yf) October 18, 2007, 5:40 pm
  • Paul, you’re forgetting that Matt Clement started the Sox last game in 2005. And Cabrera. Pedro would have been similar to the contract the Yankees gave Torre for the last three years.
    Lowe and Damon are more debatable, and there, for me, emotion overcomes reason.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 5:40 pm
  • > they are in a separate league in terms of income, but this is also exacly what Cashman has been trying to rectify
    No. Cashman and the ownership that pay/direct him are trying to rectify the fact that they can make more money. The Yankees can, through natural attrition and through paying “just enough” can maximize their profits. THAT is what this is about. It is not about winning championships, it is not about satisfying fan base. It is about providing “enough” to keep the paying populace and advertisers happy to the point that the coffers continue to fill. Maybe they are right.
    Another manager can come in, win 94 games, at many dollars less, and the ownership keeps more of the revenue. Yankee fans who think that this is about winning championships, understand it is not. It is about maximizing the profitability of the corporation. Torre stood in the way of this, not as much as by way of salary but by way of loyalty from players who command admittedly phenomenal compensation. This is profiteering by the engine that drives the Yankee machine, and it is their duty to the stockholders.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 5:43 pm
  • Andrews, I think it’s pretty well agreed by every Sox fan that the Sox are overdue to give Francona a pretty hefty raise if and when they do this offseason (assuming they continue the trend of re-upping the contract before it enters its final year).
    Don’t worry, if the Sox ask Francona to take a pay cut, I will be outraged. As it is, I’m more bemused by this situation. It’s not my team, but I do think the Yanks screwed Torre, and he decided not to take it.

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 5:45 pm
  • By the way, my bitterness towards the Sox 2004 decisions, is that I thought they could have won in 2005 by keeping the team together. And that same team (with Cabrera, Damon, Pedro, Lowe) would have been better than last year’s version too. So they probably would have overpaid in 2005-06 but they would have had a better team. It’s this year and next year that would have been questionable. But the way the spent the money, it’s not clear things are better either. Damon’s still a better bat than Crisp. Cabrera would have been a great SS. Lowe would have pitched on Wednesday night.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 5:46 pm
  • SF – technically that is ad hominem, because whether he is a hypocrite or not has no bearing on the veracity of what he’s saying.
    There might be a slight, implied or otherwise, but if you had told me the details without the outcome, I would’ve expected him to take it. So in that light, to me, it doesn’t appear that it’s overly offensive..
    My bigger issue is, now who are you going to replace him with? I’m not sure I like Mattingly or the other Joe..

    Lar October 18, 2007, 5:46 pm
  • One thing I’ve learned in managing staff and running an organization: People RARELY leave for the money, even if that is the reason. People leave because tehy feel they are being under-appreciated, under-valued, under-utilized. The money is sometimes one of the indicators of that, but much more often it is the interactions in the office – particualrly with their superiors (i.e. “you either win this series of you’re out”; “we know you love Zimmer but he’s out”, etc. etc.); the responsibilities they get and don’t get (i.e. “here’s this great pitcher, but we’re going to let the whole world that we don’t trust you enough to use him judiciously so you get him with rules set by us”); and other such factors; the positive reinforcement they get vs. the negative reinforcement (I’d cite an example, but can’t think of a sinlge example of “positive reinforcement” for Joe).
    It really is rarely the money alone or even primarily the money.

    IronHorse (yf) October 18, 2007, 5:47 pm
  • Under this offer, he would continue to be the highest-paid manager in major league baseball,” team president Randy Levine said. “We thought that we need to go to a performance-based model, having nothing to do with Joe Torre’s character, integrity or ability. We just think it’s important to motivate people.”
    So it has nothing to do with Torre’s ability, except for the fact that it has everything to do with Torre’s ability.

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 5:47 pm
  • Andrews, I commented earlier:
    How about this: if the Sox don’t offer Tito a raise this year, even if they lose the ALCS (or the Series), I will be extremely unhappy. If they offer him the same amount as this year, or less with incentives I will find it incredibly insulting. FORGET THE DOLLARS, just for a moment. I know this is very hard to do. But sometimes there are principles at stake, not just Benjamins. If the Sox come out and say “hey, you won us a Series, but you haven’t won one in a few years, and we want to incentivize you to do so”, if I were Tito, I’d tell them to screw off. And I wouldn’t blame Tito if that happens and he walks.

    SF October 18, 2007, 5:48 pm
  • That first sentence was meant to read:
    “People RARELY leave for the money, even if that is the *stated* reason”

    IronHorse (yf) October 18, 2007, 5:48 pm
  • The Yankee front office has not showered itself in any glory, and Randy Levine is doing nothing to help with statements like that. It makes it sound like they are treating Torre like a new associate just out of law school.
    Glad to have the good old hateable Yankees back, frankly, I was getting tired of them doing reasonably admirable things.

    SF October 18, 2007, 5:50 pm
  • As for how others will take the news, here’s how the AP is reporting it:
    It appeared to be an offer designed to be rejected. Scott Boras, the agent for Yankees star Alex Rodriguez, said players would have interpreted an acceptance by Torre as weakness.
    “It is difficult, near impossible, to accept a salary cut,” Boras said. “Successful people can afford their principles. They understand if they accept the position, there is a great risk the message to all under him is dissatisfaction.”

    Boras will say whatever he thinks will get A-Rod the most money, but the fact that the AP story — which will be the most widely circulated — says straight out, “It appeared to be an offer designed to be rejected,” is telling indeed.

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 5:51 pm
  • > Levine: We just think it’s important to motivate people.
    God, I think I am going to be sick.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 5:51 pm
  • Yeah, Torre sure looked like a slacker leading the Yankees to the postseason those 12 straight years.

    Paul SF October 18, 2007, 5:52 pm
  • AG: I think your analysis ignores the fact that he would have made more money if they won the WS than he did this year. Sure, they want the corporation to make more money. What’s the problem with that? In NY, unlike, for instance, Chicago, this profit will only come with winning. I think it would be dumb to ignore the profit-motive. But I also think it is naive for a fan-base to want it not to be a factor and for the ownership to over-pay for everythign just because it can.

    IronHorse (yf) October 18, 2007, 5:53 pm
  • I agree again, IH.
    The Yankees made the decision to move. And so did Joe.
    And I agree exactly, AG. Furthermore, they chose the perfect time for a transition – when their profits are guaranteed even without the same level of performance. They’re cutting payroll, while putting their payroll tax into a new stadium that will pump in even more money. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Steinbrenners buy Goldman Sachs out of their YES percentage.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 5:56 pm
  • > would have made more money if they won the WS than he did this year
    Sure. He got them there, AGAIN, despite everyone writing it off. Maybe somebody else who cost 1% less of reported gross could have done the same, and will do so for their whole career.
    > over-pay for everythign just because it can.
    Yeah, the owners should keep the money.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 5:58 pm
  • Great class quotes from Francona talking about how classy and popular Torre has been over the years. Tip of the hat to Tito

    Sam-YF October 18, 2007, 5:58 pm
  • “It appeared to be an offer designed to be rejected,”
    Yeah, that’s it.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 5:59 pm
  • First:
    I grant the Yankees every right to make this offer to Torre. Any company has every right to offer their employees not under contract whatever they choose. I do not think the Yankees should be required to offer Torre a raise just because. I don’t want that misinterpreted.
    However:
    If they decided that they were, in fact, going to offer him a new contract, the Yankee brass is no doubt smart enough and experienced enough to understand what an offer like the one that is being reported was submitted is likely to lead to and, more importantly, what it means to an employee. They are bright, shrewd businesspeople who know exactly what an incentive-laden contract with a base-pay reduction means. Arguing that this is a “fair” offer is missing the point, in my opinion.

    SF October 18, 2007, 6:00 pm
  • > He got them there
    should read “He got them in reach”

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 6:00 pm
  • That wasn’t the expectation, Paul. Torre has failed to meet expectations, and I think they feel his performance was part of the problem.
    We’ll see if the next manager gets them tot he ALDS. If they sign the trinity, it will be very surprising if they don’t. If they don’t sign the big boys, they’ll take a huge profit. Exactly like the Sox in 2005.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 6:01 pm
  • One question: What’s Torre’s next contract? (SF and Paul, I’m looking right at you.)

    Pete October 18, 2007, 6:03 pm
  • The Yankees also just told Tony LaRussa not to expect any more than $5M in base pay, effectively.

    SF October 18, 2007, 6:03 pm
  • If you are going to cut someone’s pay by 33% you have to offer years. A one year deal with incentives that don’t amount to much of a pay increase is disrespectful. I agree with SF on pretty much all accounts. This was a calculated fuck off from management.
    The size of the contract is set up to hopefully garner support from a working-class fanbase.

    walein October 18, 2007, 6:03 pm
  • AG: Why exactly is it that the owners should NOT keep the money? Why is it enough for you to just state that as if it in itself is an argument? Seriously.
    When NY paid him 7.5 mill a year, they could have afforded to pay him 40 million. Should they have done that just because owners don’t deserve to make money.
    If the Yankees were run by Wayne Huizinga or Peter Angelos and they were not putting enough into the team to keep them winning, I’d agree with you. But to accuse this ownership and management with being chincy is kid of strange to me.
    But on the owners keeping money, so what? Who exactly are they under-paying? Who are they not giving enough money to to get them into the organization or to keep them there? The guy to whom they just offered the largest salaray in the major leagues?

    IronHorse (yf) October 18, 2007, 6:04 pm
  • One question: What’s Torre’s next contract? (SF and Paul, I’m looking right at you.)
    How the hell do I know? Honestly, I don’t even really care.
    The Mets? For whatever the Yanks were paying him plus a buck, just as a snipe at the Bombers? Posada follows? Willie, canned, joins the Yanks as skip?
    I suggested this a week ago, to not much response.

    SF October 18, 2007, 6:05 pm
  • “The Yankees also just told Tony LaRussa not to expect any more than $5M in base pay, effectively.”
    Since no manager will receive that much, I don’t think it will be too upsetting to him.

    IronHorse (yf) October 18, 2007, 6:06 pm
  • One place where I disagree with AG: The Yanks realize that they can cut payroll and have the same shot a World Series. Maximize profits and win. Same thing the Sox did in 2004-05.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 6:08 pm
  • SF –
    I’m simply asking to see if you (and Paul) are consistent on what you think Torre is worth. You know, I wouldn’t want you to be a hypocrite or anything. :)

    Pete October 18, 2007, 6:09 pm
  • Pete, your arguments are disingenuous. If the Yankees were interested in “cutting” their payrole with Torre’s contract and still interested in keeping Torre as manager they would have given serious incentive bonuses (based on the enormous amount of money the Yankees get if they make it to a World Series and/or win a world series) and offered Torre more years.
    Torre will be given a longer contract by any other team trying to sign him at at least 5 million dollars (before incentives).

    walein October 18, 2007, 6:09 pm
  • Let’s distill this even more:
    The Yankees were content with Torre managing at a lesser sum, and also content with him walking away, which was an extremely likely scenario with this offer, more likely than his return. That’s something that one would learn in remedial business management 101. And that also telegraphs intent.
    To crap on Joe for not accepting a “fair” offer is just not right.

    SF October 18, 2007, 6:11 pm
  • Again, Joe Toree pre-Yankees: mediocre-to-crappy reputation.
    Joe post-Yankees: genius HoF’er.
    Joe should be as grateful to the Yankees as we YFs are to him.
    I love Torre and will miss him. But the Yankees with this ownership and management made him as much as he made the Yankees.

    IronHorse (yf) October 18, 2007, 6:11 pm
  • Obviously the Yankees wanted to move on and thought they could do better. But, they were willing to have Torre come back.
    Does Torre get 4 years and $20 from another team? I don’t think so.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 6:13 pm
  • LaRussa made 2.8M this year (he signed an extension before the championship). He’s got to be looking for a raise, I don’t know what the metric might be. I’d have to imagine that until today he would have been asking for somewhere around 5-7M, maybe more, considering what Torre was getting.
    So effectively the Yankees, if they were/are interested in LaRussa, just pre-negotiated him downward. Good business, if you ask me.

    SF October 18, 2007, 6:15 pm
  • SF –
    What does Torre get anywhere else? Seriously. That then tell us if this was a fair offer. I agree with someone else above – I hear he agrees to this contract and I’m not surprised.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 6:15 pm
  • But, they were willing to have Torre come back.
    Yes, and the Sox were willing to have Clemens at whatever they offered. Both fall into the “wasn’t gonna happen” category, in retrospect.
    Why can’t you see the contradiction in your position, Pete?

    SF October 18, 2007, 6:16 pm
  • I hear he agrees to this contract and I’m not surprised.
    Then I have to assume you don’t understand employer/employee dynamics, at least not philosophically. If someone told me this was the offer on the table yesterday, I would have said he’d be a goner. Honest.

    SF October 18, 2007, 6:18 pm
  • What does Torre get anywhere else?
    I have no idea, Pete. No clue. That isn’t the point of anything I have been commenting about with regards to Torre and the Yankees. Not sure why you are putting me on the spot for this: it’s irrelevant to the principles I have been focused on.

    SF October 18, 2007, 6:19 pm
  • What does Torre get anywhere else? Seriously.
    Well, he probably doesn’t get called out for not winning a WS every year. He probably doesn’t have his job threatened if the club he helms is down 0-2 in the LDS, or goes 11-18 in May.
    Some things you can’t put a price tag on, you know?

    Jackie (SF) October 18, 2007, 6:20 pm
  • Francesca just pointed out that once Torre speaks and gives his version of what happened, the overall atmosphere could swing (even more) hugely pro-Torre. Looking forward to hearing what he says.
    I hope Torre writes a book about his years with the Yankees. Given his discretion and trusting relationships, he will keep much close to the vest even if he writes a book, but there would a lot of good stuff in such a book anyway I would think.

    IronHorse (yf) October 18, 2007, 6:21 pm
  • SF –
    In order to acknowledge a contradiction, I have to recognize some similarity. I see none. Those cases are different on every level.
    Damon, the Sox will willing to have back, but they didn’t want to overpay. They haven’t. The Yankees don’t want to overpay for their manager. And they won’t.
    What’s the likelihood the next manager gets the team to the ALDS? If they do, they were overpaying.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 6:23 pm
  • “I hope Torre writes a book about his years with the Yankees.”
    Can Steve Swindal be a co-author of that book? Now THAT would be good readin’!

    FenSheaParkway October 18, 2007, 6:25 pm
  • If you’re indeed talking about “employer/employee dynamics” and “principles” then we’re talking the same language. It’s a bad principle for an organization to overpay for performance. If I’m in management, and I see across the board, we’re significantly overpaying than our competitions, I’m going to make a lot of noise about cutting expenditures.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 6:29 pm
  • I love this section:
    “Under this offer, he would continue to be the highest-paid manager in major-league baseball,” team president Randy Levine said. “We thought that we need to go to a performance-based model, having nothing to do with Joe Torre’s character, integrity or ability. We just think it’s important to motivate people.”
    And the understatement of the year by the article’s writer:
    “It appeared to be an offer designed to be rejected.”
    In my opinion, it isn’t the money that its important. We are all trained to pay attention to money and to all that it implies, but the important stipulation in this deal was the strings that this deal created.
    Joe obviously felt belittled by this deal. Bonuses based on performance is one thing, but the idea that he would basically be managing for his job all year. Beyond the assault on an old man’s pride, there is the obvious lack of desire to have him stick around. There is a results-oriented job market and then there is being the elderly handyman shunted to the side.
    Joe didn’t say no because it was less money. He said no because he was being treated like a nobody, as someone who “needs motivation.” If I show up to work tomorrow, and after being told that although i have been a great worker the last decade and an integral part of what has defined my company, the last year has seen a downturn. Because of this, i will be employed next year, as a favor, and after that “well, we’ll see how it goes.”
    I’d walk out to, because there is understanding that situations change and being told to my face that I’m not respected.
    For some reason this reminds me of my first job out of college. It was a call center. I worked there for three years and everything was wonderful. Except at review time when there was much shuffling of feet and furrowed brows. I was a wonderful employee and they loved me, and I brought in alot, but really they couldn’t offer me more than a pittance, because well the numbers just didn’t add up right. I would go from a hard-working, valued member of the team to a set of averaged numbers.
    In the end, the Yankees didn’t want to commit to Torre as the manager, offered him a contract they knew he wouldn’t sign (maybe he would sign a pay-cut with some security and vows of support, but less money, no security and a “we’re doing you a favor” attitude?), and are now trying to play the “Well, we offered it to him and he said no” card.
    It may be a good PR move, but I’m thinking every one smells the spin and sees it for what it is: they just got rid of Joe Torre.

    Carlos (YF) October 18, 2007, 6:50 pm
  • That’s all very fair, Carlos. If the employee feels mistreated, they should walk away. But if the employer thinks they can be replaced cheaply, then they have an obligation not to overpay.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 6:58 pm
  • Pete,
    It isn’t the money, like I said. The real mistreatment is the lack of security of the deal overall. Managers are not hired on a year to year basis unless they are not wanted.
    Of course, over time we can change the standards of what managers “deserve” or “get.” But I really don’t think Yankee management is about to embark on a baseball culture-wide paradigm shift in terms of management compensation philosophy. I doubt they are looking to set policy for the next age.
    In the end, the Yankee management didn’t feel comfortable with Joe Torre as their coach, even semi-long term. So they offered him something they knew he’d reject, and so will pay about the same amount of money to someone else.
    I’d like to think that. I would like to think that the Yankees thought so poorly of Joe Torre that they actually expected him to work and live under a one year contract + necessary added motivation. I’d like to think that they wouldn’t ignore the past decade plus of success and tell Joe that he, like any stripling, still had to prove his worth before a commitment could be made. That no matter how many WS he won, playoffs he got too, situations he handled or anything, he would remain the lame duck until the Yankees denied him even that.
    I’d like to think that, unhappy with their options at the moment, they didn’t just think they could string Joe out for another year to see if things improve for them job market wise. I would like to think, employee/employer relationship aside, we’d peel back the Evil Corporate Empire mode for a bit, and show some love.
    Show some love and say: We want to move on, for many reasons, so thank you for your service and good luck. Not to say: Yea, sure you won alot, and even though you are in your late 60s, we are going to treat you like you are some kid off the farm and just take it day by day. Here’s a bone, now show us what you got, and we’ll think about next year.

    Anonymous October 18, 2007, 7:17 pm
  • Sorry, by market standards, it was a fair deal. I can understand how Torre feels disrespected, but management felt they could get the same performance much, much, cheaper. As business has to asks if employees are bringing their fare share of value. If not, there’s no reason to keep them around – it’s not a charity.

    Pete October 18, 2007, 7:26 pm
  • What you’re saying makes total sense if Baseball was like a Fortune 500 company. But as much as fans, the press, players and management always tempers every off-season discussion with “I understand that Baseball is a business…”, we still don’t really want or expect it to be that. Maybe it’s fair to treat Torre (or Pedro, or Johnny, or Bernie, or Nomar) as a line on a cost/benefit analysis, but it’s still respectable for fans to be let down when it happens. Joe Torre wasn’t an anonymous and under-performing COO for a company. He was probably the second most recognizable face of the organization.
    So you’re right, it isn’t a charity. But the Yankees just admitted that they thought a better contract for Joe Torre would have counted as a charity case. I think that’s where the shock is coming from.

    FenSheaParkway October 18, 2007, 7:39 pm
  • Larry Bowa on ESPN just said that this was “a mistake on their part”, meaning “the Yankees’ part”. In other words, he sees this not as Torre rejecting the Yankees but the Yankees rejecting Torre.

    SF October 18, 2007, 7:42 pm
  • Pete–
    Your argument is disingenuous. If the Yankees wanted to “save payroll” by cutting Torre’s yearly contract down they would have offered extended years (job security) and large incentives based on what the Yankees would make with World Series money.
    They didn’t because they had no intention of resigning Torre. The offer was therefore a fuck off. They chose the amount of money, based on “market considerations” in the hopes that people like you would make arguments that Torre was being unreasonable in his expectations.
    Good job Pete…enjoy those $50 upper tier, lighting rig seats in the new stadium.

    walein October 18, 2007, 7:57 pm
  • Curious to know how YFs will react if the Yankees offer Mariano Rivera, coming off one of the worst seasons of his career, a massive paycut (30-40%) and incentives over a couple of years. His performance dropped significantly this season, and he’s older. And if the Yankees don’t offer him a significant paycut and a short contract, then what does that say about the sincerity of Levine’s comments today? Speculation, of course.
    Serious question – how would this go over?

    SF October 18, 2007, 8:05 pm
  • My guess: Like a platinum parachute.

    FenSheaParkway October 18, 2007, 8:15 pm
  • Sorry, I had to step away for a bit.
    > AG: Why exactly is it that the owners should NOT keep the money?
    Because the owners are not the product on the field.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 8:30 pm
  • walein nailed it.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 8:45 pm
  • a few things strike me about the torre reaction:
    sox fans indignation: isn’t torre the same guy some of you questioned about his bullpen usage and suggested that without the large payroll he might be a very different manager?
    yank fans indignation: isn’t torre the same guy some of you called “sleepy” and questioned his bullpen usage, among other in-game moves?
    torre gets a lot of love, but he gets a fair amount of abuse from both sides…
    he still would be the highest paid manager in baseball…not bad…
    i’d love to see him return, but recently a sox fan i’ve known for a long time suggested that maybe the yankees would be better off with a change…he went on to say that he didn’t necessarily mean that the yanks could find a better strategist or manager of men/egos, just that a change might be needed….maybe…

    dc October 18, 2007, 9:52 pm
  • dc-
    I think alot of the reaction has less to do with whether or not the Yankees needed to or should have parted ways with Torre and more to do with how it has been handled by the Yankees ownership.

    walein October 18, 2007, 10:06 pm
  • wow. A thread full of Pete fighting with SF(s). What a surprise.

    Brad October 18, 2007, 10:18 pm
  • well walein…i think there are good arguments on both sides about whether or not the offer could be considered fair…what’s “fair” is always up to the judgement of the offer-er and the offer-ee, and they won’t always agree…
    what i find very ironic is the energy with which some of the sf’s, particularly sf and paul sf are arguing about the treatment of torre…seriously guys, clemens, nomar, pedro, grady [well, i had to toss a mgr in there], most of the 04 team…you’ve all defended these decisions as sound business moves, along with spending bundles of money on busts like drew, lugo, gagne, dice?maybe…i’m characterizing it as ironic, since the word “hypocrisy” evokes such a negative and irrational reaction…i’m not liking that torre may leave, i don’t like the alternatives, but you guys moaning about it seems disingenuous
    …do you really care if the yanks f-up, and more importantly do you really care about the already-millionaire joe torre?…i doubt it

    dc October 18, 2007, 10:33 pm
  • dc, I think SF and Paul would be quite pleased if the Yankees choose to f- themselves 9 ways to Sunday with a corncob on a rusty nail. I also think that both of them can call bullshit when they smell it.
    > good arguments on both sides
    Very few arguments for Torre to accept a 33% pay cut strike me as fair, reasonable or rational.
    Torre has averaged 98 wins a year as the Yankees manager.
    98 wins per year, for twelve years.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 11:02 pm
  • “…both of them can call bullshit when they smell it…”
    with all due respect ag, your usual objectivity is somewhat colored by the emotion of this situation…don’t get me wrong…i love torre…he’s all about what’s been right about the yankees these past dozen years or so, but both of these sf’s only seem to smell yankee bullshit…and their rather surreal and “over the top” protests of this situation stink to me, and sound more like an opportunity to pile on, especially given the sox history of “sound business decisions” with former employees…
    you may have missed the part where i said: “i’m not liking that torre may leave, i don’t like the alternatives, but you guys moaning about it seems disingenuous
    …do you really care if the yanks f-up, and more importantly do you really care about the already-millionaire joe torre?…i doubt it”…
    …and i meant it…this isn’t about torre, it’s about an opportunity to clobber the yanks…ok, that’s cool, now we know the gloves are off, and we don’t have to tiptoe around theo’s f-ups so as not to offend sox fans…fun stuff

    dc October 18, 2007, 11:20 pm
  • > their rather surreal and “over the top” protests of this situation stink to me
    I understand your position about the messengers, but it doesn’t invalidate the argument presented.
    Yes, my emotions were running strong earlier, but the handling of this entire affair by the Yankees F.O. is what truly reeks, not whether or not some sox fans might take joy in the ensuing turmoil.

    attackgerbil October 18, 2007, 11:25 pm
  • ag, fair enough friend…i think you realize that i love torre, and understand what he’s done for us…i don’t know when it’s the right time to move on, or the most delicate way to do it…the yanks could have been more gentle if they were sending him a message, but i think loyalty on both sides [players and mgmt] is dead in baseball, and this is only one example among many…and more to come…it’s all made me a bit cynical, and sadly, it’s starting to make me more jaded…i care, but not so much anymore…as for our sox friends, they presumed to carry the torch for torre and i call that out for the bullshit that it was…they don’t give a f— about torre…pretending that they did is nonsense…

    dc October 18, 2007, 11:35 pm
  • > starting to make me more jaded
    right there with you.

    attackgerbil October 19, 2007, 12:00 am
  • A couple things:
    Obviously the Yankees wanted to move on and thought they could do better. But, they were willing to have Torre come back.
    This sounds EXACTLY like what the Red Sox did, yet you criticized the Red Sox heavily for this and called the offer to Torre “fair.” I don’t question that the Sox gave Clemens an offer they figured he’d reject, but they also didn’t hold a press conference saying they thought the offer was great.
    Meanwhile, DC, why do you bring up your old arguments — which SF and I have had to refute time and again, as your memory of the way these transactions occurred seems to be incredibly faulty — without acknowledging our responses?
    You mention Nomar — whom the Red Sox traded, thus no relation to this scenario. You mention Little, whom the Red Sox dismissed without making any kind of offer, so again: No relation. You mention Pedro, to whom the Red Sox made an offer that he rejected, taking significantly more money from the Mets because the Sox were concerned about his health, and rightly so. So some relation, but not really that much. I fail to see what on earth any of these has to do with the Yankees and Torre.
    Unless you’re trying to say we never criticize the Sox’ FO. Which is blatantly, ridiculously wrong. I criticized the Mirabelli trade from the moment it happened, and SF has never liked the Lugo signing, just to cite the examples that come immediately to mind.
    Sometimes facts serve an argument better than simply carpetbombing a conversation with baseless suspicions.

    Paul SF October 19, 2007, 12:54 am
  • Also, why is whether or not we care for Torre a prerequisite for discussing what’s happened to him? Yes, I’m glad he’s gone. The Yankees are a worse team without him. But the Yankees should have treated him better. I don’t think I’m precluded from giving and arguing my opinions on the Yankees or this situation just because I want to see them fail.

    Paul SF October 19, 2007, 12:57 am
  • IH.. Catching up on a comment I left unanswered.
    > Why exactly is it that the owners should NOT keep the money? Why is it enough for you to just state that as if it in itself is an argument? Seriously.
    Because the Yankees set the pace for Torre’s successes through 2004 at 7.5M when they gave him his last contract. Pardon me for repeating this, but I’ve said that I’m of the opinion that Torre did his job: get the team to the post season where they have a shot to win it all. Other people are of the opinion that his job is to get the Yankees to win the World Series, and think that any other average manager, given the resources that Torre has been given, would have been as or more successful. Debateable.
    Just about everyone is fine with saying, “we respect Joe Torre and thank him for all he has done” and so on. Others add the caveat that the Yankees made Torre more than Torre made the Yankees and bringing up what he did with the Mets, the Cardinals and the Braves as if that matters now. Fair enough, I suppose, but irrelevant.
    The fact is that he is the most successful manager in the game over the last 12 years. There are two quantifiable metrics that are difficult to argue when evaluating a manager: regular season wins/losses, and first round post season appearances, which is why I think Torre earned the check he was getting paid. Others say the only metric that matters is a WS victory, which makes Torre woefully overpaid for many years, but with the rarity of multiple world series wins for a team, no manager will ever pass muster to be paid as far above median scale as was Torre.
    The 1/3 wage cut is insulting, but I got off track; I said early in the thread the biggest F.U. from the ownership was the one-year contract offer. The “new” Yankees ownership has a smell that harkens back to the merry-go-round managerial manipulation of the 80’s, and that frankly sucks.

    attackgerbil October 19, 2007, 5:41 am
  • “…Unless you’re trying to say we never criticize the Sox’ FO. Which is blatantly, ridiculously wrong….”
    no paul, i’m not trying to say that at all…thanks for acknowledging that those are your words, and for not trying to put words in my mouth like you usually do…all i was saying was that there have been controversial “business decisions” in both front offices, but i don’t recall having seen one argued as passionately by you and sf as i have this particular one involving torre and the yankees…i thought the show of emotion was odd really, in fact surreal…you argued for him as though you really “care” about him, that’s why i questioned your motives…you’re entitled to your opinion of course, but calm down a little, and rejoice in the yankee FO stupidity…as for relevancy, all of the player moves i noted [with the possible exception of nomar, although the sox did save money on that deal] were driven by money v. the expected future productivity of the player…might as well toss damon’s name in the mix too…for the record i didn’t like the way they handled bernie williams’ goodbye, but like i told gerb, loyalty is dead…they can’t reward past performance anymore while claiming to try to control payroll…you sox fans should know that better than anyone…maybe it’s the same with torre…maybe they feel he just can’t get it done anymore, and their rather callous way of saying it is distracting us fans from addressing the real issue…his questionable handling of the pitching staff has been brought up time and time again on this site…maybe they don’t want to entrust the younger members of the staff to a guy with his track record of burning them out…so, is torre still the most effective manager for this team, or are we overpaying for the memories?…after all, it’s you sox fans that constantly remind us that the yanks haven’t won since 2000 despite having the highest payroll in the majors…and don’t give me the crap about 12 consecutive post seasons…it’s like i told you on the other thread about manny still being manny, when you made the outrageous claim about manny’s logic:
    “If the Sox lose this series, they still will have had their best overall season since 2004, with their best regular season since 1995….”
    can’t argue with the facts of that statement, but the sentiment is another story…here’s my response in case you didn’t see it:
    “nice try paul…you may have thought you slipped this little nugget past me, but i told you all i would call you on the “anything less than a ws victory is no good” bs you badgered us yf’s with last season…you aren’t out of it yet by a long shot, but this quote just proves that you’re already hedging your bets…nope, if you lose, you are a failure…welcome to the club buddy…it ain’t fun, especially with fans from the other side rubbing it in…”
    in other words, if you believe your prior accusations aimed at the yankees about their attitude that winning a ws is the only thing that counts, then we need a scapegoat for the past 7 years, and for the obvious deterioration of performance from last season to this…as much as i hate saying this, torre as the manager is the logical choice…
    see facts are fun…i rather like reminding you of that from time to time…

    dc October 19, 2007, 7:39 am
  • “This sounds EXACTLY like what the Red Sox did, yet you criticized the Red Sox heavily for this and called the offer to Torre “fair.” I don’t question that the Sox gave Clemens an offer they figured he’d reject, but they also didn’t hold a press conference saying they thought the offer was great.”
    Ah, but they did hold a press conference – for Clemens and Damon. Like, I’ve said, this situation is far different from Clemens. It’s more similar to Damon. And Paul, you still have yet to tell me what Torre makes next year. It might be exactly 5 million, but it won’t be more than that.
    The Yankees thought they could pay less and still reach the ALDS. It’s hard to fault that logic.

    Pete October 19, 2007, 8:33 am
  • Whatever Joe Torre makes next year will be as a broadcaster, so there’s not much relevance in the question.

    Paul SF October 19, 2007, 8:41 am
  • Could Torre go to LA to replace Grady Little? Would that be ironic?

    SF October 19, 2007, 8:45 am
  • Ah, still avoiding the question, Paul…
    I could see Torre managing next year, and he won’t get more than 5 million/year. After all, he’s not exactly a spring chicken and the window on another managing job would close quickly.
    I wouldn’t be surprised to see him get 3 years at 15 million, but from whom? The Dodgers, work. Anyone else though?

    Pete October 19, 2007, 8:54 am
  • Pete, “avoiding the question” isn’t the same as not knowing an answer. You asked what Paul and I think Torre will make next year, and I freely admit I have no clue. I also believe there is little relevance in the contract amount to what I have focused on with regards to Torre, which is the principle behind philosophy of the Yankees’ offer, not the absolute numbers. If Paul wants to take a stab at guessing a contract figure he’s free to do so, I have no interest, it is irrelevant to me.

    SF October 19, 2007, 8:57 am
  • Sorry, SF, but it pertains directly to your contention that the offer was an insult. The man would have been making as much, or more, than he’ll make any where else. People focusing on the “cut” are ignoring that he was severely overpaid most especially because he didn’t bring the company any value over what they would get from another manager making 2 million/year. The Yankees realized this, and the offer was a correction to market prices. Nick pointing out Mussina is actually a nice analogue. Moose was making more than he deserved. So was Torre.

    Pete October 19, 2007, 9:06 am
  • This was a situation involving human emotion and interpersonal dynamics. It’s irrelevant that Torre would still be the highest paid manager. Completely, utterly irrelevant. In business dealings when a payscale has been established (however exorbitant one may view that payscale) that is the reference. Torre isn’t responsible for looking at his salary in relation to the rest of the league. He’s not. He had a salary established, he was up for re-signing, the team told him 1) he wasn’t as valuable as he had been in the past, literally and 2) he had to prove his motivation to the club in order to return to his current payscale and 3) that motivation was to be proven by players whose performances he has no ultimate control over and 4) that he had only one year to prove it.
    In fact and in principle (and again, I am interested in discussing this case ON PRINCIPLE) the offer was a devaluation, and a major one. It was an offer designed to let Torre know that he was not as valuable to the team (which may be true, I am not interested in arguing that). Add in the human component of things and this offer was likely to be a dead-end. The Yankee brass knew this, and that is what I am trying to discuss.
    Pete, you have often accused the Sox FO of having a tin ear, but these events with Torre and the Yankees fit that bill to a T, unless (like I do) one thinks that it was by design. This was a deliberate move by the Yankees, one they know was likely to end the way it did. All their hand-wringing in the press today about them expecting Torre to accept the deal is either a) tin-earism or b) disingenuousness. Or, with the new kids in charge, it might be a little of both.

    SF October 19, 2007, 9:21 am
  • Sorry, I like the comparison to Mussina. The payscale was out of whack, so they adjusted it. They think they can get the same team performance while paying less at the position. Just like Damon.
    Never heard the expression “tin ear” before. Honestly, I think they gave him an offer he could have accepted and they would have been okay with him returning. I can see now, how the question for you is whether they wanted him to return. And I’m not sure. I bet there was a strong sentiment among the powers that be to not offer him anything. This deal was was obviously a compromise and one that could have been accepted, and no one would have thought much of it. I’m sure Torre feels disrespected. But he has been handsomely rewarded and he could have worked on a farewell year. The deal fairly offered him that.

    Pete October 19, 2007, 9:32 am
  • they would have been okay with him returning
    They made an offer, so yes. But an offer like this is a hedge, made with the knowledge that the likelihood of acceptance is low. Claims by Yankee staffers to the contrary are hokum.

    SF October 19, 2007, 9:38 am
  • I don’t agree, SF. Obviously, it was a compromise offer (where management WAS unsure on whether they wanted him back). But Torre could have seen it as exactly that, and still taken it without any of us saying he got screwed. That tells me the offer, itself, was fair.
    Look, they followed the same logic with Bernie Williams too in 2006, right? You aren’t worth what you once were, but we’d like you back under these terms. That may not be nice, but it is business.
    Gotta run to meetings. Have a great weekend, everyone. Go Sox!

    Pete October 19, 2007, 9:58 am
  • The Yankees made Torre this offer with the intention of letting Torre leave on his own terms. There’s no way the Yankees expected Torre to take it.
    They did this so they could save face, and in doing so hope to retain Posada and Rivera.
    And for the record: I respect Torre a great deal, but a 10-year-old with a clipboard could have led the Yankees to the playoffs for 12 straight seasons.

    Atheose October 19, 2007, 9:59 am
  • Atheose–
    Probably not.

    walein October 19, 2007, 10:10 am
  • To what point Walein? The part about the 10-year-old?
    Like I said, I have a great deal of respect for Torre. But when you have an entire team of all-star players, very little managing is required. Most of it comes down to whether or not the players perform well. For instance, the Yankee bats (specifically the left-handed ones) did horribly at the beginning of this season. They then woke up and had an unbelievably strong offense for the latter half of the season, which is why they won.
    On most teams i would say the manager plays a large role. On the Yankees, however, I do not think so.

    Atheose October 19, 2007, 10:38 am
  • The same could be said about any manager. If your position is that a manager is only as good as the construction of his team then a 10 yr old could send Josh Beckett out to the mound and feel pretty good that he’s going to pitch lights out. I could also send Manny or Papi out and feel like they have a very good chance of hitting a little bit.
    BTW- I’ve pulled back on my position concerning Torre and the Yanks. If I seemed a little emotional in my attacks…I was. My apologies. I haven’t finalized my opinion of the Torre situation. I still feel the 1 yr deal was an obvious we don’t want you here anymore and the incentive package strange.

    walein October 19, 2007, 11:52 am
  • in the meantime paul and sf completely ignored my comments…that usually means i’m right, but i can’t believe i’m about to say pete makes sense…i’ll catch up with the other postings today to see if i see anything relevant…

    dc October 19, 2007, 9:37 pm

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