I Got It!

A-Rod’s scruples, or lack thereof, are in the news again. With the Yankees up by one run in the 9th inning last night, Matsui and A-Rod on base, and two outs, Jorge Posada hit a routine pop up. John McDonald and Howie Clark converged and stared up at the ball, and as Rodriguez ran between them towards third, he suddenly shouted something; Clark froze, and the ball dropped in. Per LoHud,

"The Blue Jays are not pleased with Alex Rodriguez. They said he
yelled, “Mine!” as he passed behind Howie Clark in the ninth inning.
Clark backed off the pop-up and it led to the Yankees scoring three
runs.

“I’ve never seen it happen, maybe I’m naive but I
thought it was a bush-league play. That’s not Yankee pride right
there,” Toronto manager John Gibbons said.

Clark said that in all his time in baseball, he had never experienced such a thing."

Oh, give me a break. Sure — I’ve seen corked bats, pine tarred balls, omnipresent amphetamines, and rampant unchecked steroid use… but yelling "mine" as you pass a fielder?!? I am shocked, sir! What of the integrity of the game?

Personally, I get a kick out this stuff. Dirty plays that might get someone hurt are dangerous, and no fun to watch; but as far as I’m concerned, anything and everything goes when messing with your opponent’s head. After McDonald and Clark and even Gibbons finished barking at him, A-Rod stood at third clearly trying to suppress a grin, and not quite succeeding. Ha! Matsui scored on the play, and The Yanks went on to win 10-5.

"I just said, ‘Ha!’, that’s it," A-Rod explained on the postgame show. Funny, that’s what I said. "Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t."

Look, I wish I could offer more lofty sentiments, but let’s be honest. At this point in the Yankees’ season, if getting an actual win requires A-Rod to screw thirteen transvestite prostitutes, on a pile of corked bats, in front of Babe Ruth’s plaque in Monument Park? Fine.

299 comments… add one

  • Do all players try to get competitive advantages by playing at the fuzzy edge of sportsmanship? I imagine many do. But A-Rod seems to advertise this strongly. Either that or he gets an inordinate amount of attention for doing what most players do. It’s gotten very hard to know what it is.
    No matter, it sure seems like people do NOT like A-Rod. It’s getting hard not to see why, frankly. And this comes from someone who has been an ardent defender, and one who adores watching him perform.

    SF May 31, 2007, 8:22 am
  • I still can’t believe that actually worked. I bet A-Rod was a bit surprised as well, can’t blame him for that shit-eating grin he had on his face.
    But Clark certainly showed why he was a career minor leaguer.

    AndrewYF May 31, 2007, 9:02 am
  • “At this point in the Yankees’ season, if getting an actual win requires A-Rod to screw thirteen transvestite prostitutes, on a pile of corked bats, in front of Babe Ruth’s plaque in Monument Park? Fine.”
    Hysterical and true, Emma. Desperate times for the Yankees. I didn’t think it was a big deal. Clark is a dope for letting Alex distract him in the first place.

    Simone May 31, 2007, 9:15 am
  • I would have benched my little leaguers for that kind of crap.

    Josh May 31, 2007, 9:18 am
  • he didn’t swat at the guy’s glove, which caused an uproar for him in the past.
    he didn’t go out of his way to bump the fielder, which raised eyebrows a week or so ago.
    he made noise.
    at a baseball game.
    this shouldn’t be an issue, except that the kid was actually distracted by it.
    ridiculous.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 9:21 am
  • “he made noise. at a baseball game.”
    lets not pretend that calling off a popfly is simply making noise if thats what he did… ive seen that movie Rookie of the Year. Arods like that kid from the movie.. is he going to begin taunting the pitcher next and razzing his tongue? na na na-na-na! you’re gonna loooose! Noooonan!

    Ric May 31, 2007, 9:37 am
  • SF – people just don’t want to like him, it seems. I mean, when he was doing everything right, everyone calls him soft, and he tries to stand up against the Sox, but did it against someone who didn’t even take off his mask, and somehow it’s his fault.
    I don’t know how common/uncommon this thing is, but I guess it’s not that common.. still, if Cairo did it, I don’t think there’ll be much of a fuss. It’s like when Phelps ran into the Seattle catcher, he erred on the side of dangerous, got nailed for it, and that was that (Proctor stupidity aside). But if it was ARod we would’ve never heard the end of it.
    I’m more amazed that it worked than he (or anyone) doing it. When I play (friendly) softball, I’ve known to do silly stuff like that too, but even at my level it never works!

    Lar May 31, 2007, 9:42 am
  • I think the SF’s are just upset that Dice-K got lit up last night.
    And what better topic to complain about than A-Rod?

    Woosta YF May 31, 2007, 9:43 am
  • “if that’s what he did…”
    nobody can even be sure, but we’re ready to throw him under the bus anyway.
    it is a little league play. like the hidden ball trick, which is usually recounted with an attitude that such plays harken back to a time of innocence and youthful whimsicality or some such nonsense.
    this isn’t watergate.
    what it is is funny.
    if the tables were turned and it happened to the yankees, i’d be pissed that they fell for it, not that it was tried.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 9:44 am
  • “if the tables were turned and it happened to the yankees, i’d be pissed that they fell for it, not that it was tried.”
    Ain’t that the truth.

    Woosta YF May 31, 2007, 9:47 am
  • Kind of like that stealing home. Pissed that they fell for it. Ah well.

    Lar May 31, 2007, 9:53 am
  • “nobody can even be sure, but we’re ready to throw him under the bus anyway.”
    the smirk on his face after the play suggests that he knew what he was doing. but it was a legal play regardless. but Arod has been painting quite a target on his back recently and that has little to do with his high salary.

    Ric May 31, 2007, 9:57 am
  • Let’s not bring up the Tek fight, during which A-Rod screamed, “F*ck you!” and “Come on!” and then acted all shocked that Varitek actually hit him without pausing to take off his gear first. Please.
    I don’t think this is a big deal either. But it’s now the third A-Rod incident that, as SF says, sits right on this line of propriety. The AP story I read called A-Rod’s “sh*t-eating grin” a “smirk.” I’ve seen A-Rod’s smirk, and it might be the most annoying thing ever.

    Paul SF May 31, 2007, 9:57 am
  • “Kind of like that stealing home. Pissed that they fell for it.”
    exactly.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 9:57 am
  • Also, it was Emma, a YF, who brought this up. Not SF, Woosta.
    Anyway, it’s good to see our regular YFs back. It’s not nearly as fun without you!

    Paul SF May 31, 2007, 9:59 am
  • On one hand, I can see why it would be considered ‘bush league,’ and it is kind of cheap.
    On the other hand, it’s not against the rules. Also, if he wanted the ball he (the fielder) should have shouted louder and longer to take priority and take charge.
    I might have had a little anger had it happened against the Sox, but I would hope that our defense would be more mentally immune than that.

    Scott SF May 31, 2007, 10:02 am
  • Uh, Paul, Emma brought up the hilarity of the situation with a fantastic post.
    SF tried to get all righteous.

    Woosta YF May 31, 2007, 10:03 am
  • Fact is this kind of thing must happen all the time in baseball. The only reason we know about it is because Clark was sucker enough to give up on a pop fly when he heard a sound. This happens all the time on foul balls near the opposing dugout, it just never works. As usual controversy finds A-Rod like the lightning rod that he is. SFs do you think Lowell would have fallen for that in a million years? If he did regardless of who yelled ‘ha’ would you be pissed at the fielder or the yeller? I would be pissed AT our third baseman for not making the out…

    sam YF May 31, 2007, 10:04 am
  • “the smirk on his face after the play suggests that he knew what he was doing.”
    quite likely… or perhaps he was smiling at the misplay, or that the papers might have something to distract them from the “other” rodriguez story, or he remembered a scene from “mr. show with bob and david”… you know the “audition” sketch? i know that always makes me smile…
    i would smile, too. it was funny.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 10:04 am
  • And then of course Josh took it to the ridiculous level.

    Anonymous May 31, 2007, 10:05 am
  • And then of course Josh took it to the ridiculous level.

    Woosta YF May 31, 2007, 10:06 am
  • Sorry! Typepad verification sucks.

    Woosta YF May 31, 2007, 10:07 am
  • “I’ve seen A-Rod’s smirk, and it might be the most annoying thing ever.”
    for me, manny’s posing after doing what he is paid to do is the most annoying thing i’ve experienced in baseball. i know that my dislike for the guy plays a big part in this, but i also believe that him doing this is the primary, potentially single source of my dislike.
    today, when i turn in my timecard, i’m going to toss it onto my boss’ desk, keep my arm extended and just gaze at the thing for a good 5 seconds.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 10:11 am
  • although this bit from the ny times does seem to say it was indeed intentional:
    Rodriguez said he was simply trying to win. “We’re desperate,” he said. “We haven’t won a game in a little bit now. We won the game.”
    fair enough.
    if that was his goal, i can’t blame him. i’m sick of the losing, too.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 10:23 am
  • My god, if this were David Eckstein or Trot Nixon or any other player with tons of grit and limited skills, people would be climbing in spasms of baseball ecstasy, crowing about “heady play” and “get it done attitude.”
    The man was just trying to get an edge. It wasn’t a dirty play and it certainly wasn’t against the rules.
    Would I bench a Little League player for doing that? Yes, I would, because it’s kind of cheap and is a win-at-all-costs kind of tactic.
    But this isn’t Little League. These games count for something, and are played by grown men who’ve already learned the game.
    As a previous poster mentioned, what ARod did is very comparable to the hidden ball play. That was a specialty of Marty Barrett, and I loved it when he was able to pull it off for the Sox. I’m sure it didn’t make him any friends on the other team, but it got an extra out. What ARod did was the same- saved an out for his team.

    Ayuh - SF May 31, 2007, 10:23 am
  • Hey, a Yankum win (coupled with a Sawks loss) and the Yankees fans come out of the woodwork. Nice to see you all again. We’ll see you again next Wednesday, after the next Yankees win.
    That said, the problem isn’t that Clark “fell for it,” the problem is that ARod resorted to that sort of bush league play. But, then again, bush league is what ARod is. He just wants to be loved by all, right? I didn’t have much respect for ARod before last night…he killed the rest of my respect with that crap play.
    The funny part is that the next time they play the Jays, I guarantee you ARod takes one in the ear hole…and it’s justified. Baseball has a way of policing itself.

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 10:27 am
  • Oh and it’s not like the hidden ball trick. Not even close. That’s like comparing apples to Toronto hookers.

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 10:29 am
  • So jp asserts it and it’s true.
    Ayuh – well said. But my kids pull that and I laugh with them. It’s not winning at all costs – it’s smart baseball.
    Folks (like josh, jp, SF) do realize that if A-Rod had been the victim of that play last night, they’d be the ones laughing. That’s the only test I need for intellectual honesty.

    Woosta YF May 31, 2007, 10:34 am
  • No, jp doesn’t assert it and it’s true. JP has taken one side of the debate here and argued his point…which is his true feelings. Woah, I feel like Rickey Henderson referring to myself in the 3rd person…but I digress.
    If ARod had been the victim of that play, I would still think it was bush league…even if Papi yelled “I GOT IT” at the top of his lungs while Manny screwed thirteen transvestite hookers on a pile of corked bats in front of the Green Monster. It just shows the desperation in the Yanks. I wonder if when Torre refers to his team as “classy” if he thinks of ARod as part of the team…

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 10:41 am
  • hey, jp-sf… i’ll be sure to avoid the “woodwork” of writing final papers and studying for my exams in the future. where are my priorities?
    nice one about the hookers and stuff… i’m sure that your respect is exactly what rodriguez is striving for.
    that wasn’t “bush league”… “classy”, right?

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 10:44 am
  • Woosta- thanks.
    It’s a pretty fine line between what’s “cheap” and what’s “smart” on the baseball field. I know if I had a kid on my team who ran up behind a fielder on a pop fly and then screamed “DROP IT!!”, I’d sure pull his butt of the field. To me, Little League is where a kid learns the fundamentals of the game, and has fun doing it. There’s plenty of time for gamesmanship later on.

    Ayuh - SF May 31, 2007, 10:45 am
  • Count me with the few SFs that just thinks this is funny.
    You know what else I think is funny?
    The fact that you can’t buy a blond wig anywhere in the city of Boston right now, totally sold out.
    Man, I can’t with for the chants tomorrow night, and I’m going to be there.

    LocklandSF May 31, 2007, 10:48 am
  • i’ll be there, too, lockland sf.
    pretty excited.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 10:50 am
  • Please JP, if this same thing happened during a sox yankee game and Arod dropped a ball as Papi ran behind him and said “I got it” to result in a couple of runs there is ZERO chance that you would have a problem with it.
    As far as desperation goes, as I said earlier this kind of stuff happens all the time in baseball. The yankees happened to get a break here when they are at their most desperate. We sure could use one after the Hughes news. (hey that ryhmes)

    sam YF May 31, 2007, 10:50 am
  • YFIB – I don’t care where you’ve been, just calling it like I see it. Curious that your “paper” is all written today….hmmm…
    I never professed myself to be classy on this site, have I? No, I took a side of the argument and argued my point. Furthermore, I’m not the one that got caught going back to my hotel with a woman that I was at a strip club with who is not my wife. Oh and if you go and REREAD this post, you will see that I took the transvestite hooker thing directly from the author (hint, look at the last paragraph).

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 10:50 am
  • Sam – you’re wrong. I feel the same way about stealing signs, taking performance enhancing drugs and doing anything illegal or immoral to give yourself a competitive edge. If you’re not good enough to win on your own merits, then find another profession.

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 10:53 am
  • In my mind, if the Yankees have to pull stunts like this in order to win, they’ve got bigger problems than whether they’re pissing off another under-.500 team with some questionable baseball ethics. As long as no one gets hurt, who cares? Good for A-Rod for thinking quick under the weight of all that desperation. Playing cheap will only get you so far. In the overall scheme of things, it doesn’t matter. It’s like trying to blame a bad season on officiating. If the umpiring is really making a huge difference in the game, you’re not playing well enough to win, anyway.

    MrBlackthorne May 31, 2007, 10:54 am
  • Are certain SFs really going to trash talk about the lack of YF posts during this period? Really? I know for myself that I’ve been incredibly busy these last few months with academic and personal stuff. Plus, the Yanks have sucked…royally. It’s not fun writing or thinking about this team. During the fall of 2006, SFs, in general, became a lot less prolific at this site. The season just didn’t seem to hold the same level of interest for these fans as it did earlier. That’s cause they were losing. Fine, that makes sense to me.

    Nick-YF May 31, 2007, 10:57 am
  • i was talking about your apples/hookers remark, not the quote.
    dude, you’re calling out a guy for not being classy. it rings less true if you take cheapshots. just my opinion.
    my paper is written because the due date has passed. that is how these things are done. it isn’t nearly as curious at you might think.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 10:57 am
  • Let’s not forget during the Tek/A-rod scuffle Saint Jason himself said “We don’t throw at .260 hitters.” So let’s give both sides.
    As for last night, it’s a bush play. I yell at my HS kids all the time for the same nonsense. Not something Yankee fans should be proud of and I am one.

    Triskaidekaphobia May 31, 2007, 10:59 am
  • Ah, the apples/hookers remark. Yes, I was the original author of that line. Brilliant, if I do say so myself…
    Stating facts isn’t taking cheap shots…it’s stating facts.
    Congrats on getting the paper done to coincide with the Yanks first win in a week.

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 11:01 am
  • I kinda liked it, I have to say.
    With regard to people not liking A-Rod, I have always tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, but unfortunately I think he’s brought it on himself, and not purely because of his alleged lack of clutch performance. The larger problem is that he just presents himself as a prince and a peacock, despite his best efforts not to. It’s the way he flips his bat after a walk. It’s the way he always manages to say the wrong thing, something that’s intended to sound humble but comes of sounding arrogant (such as when he comments on his own superior intelligence). I think with him you get the worst of both worlds — he seems disingenuous, a cocky and entitled guy who unconvincingly tries to present himself as a modest and friendly fellow. He’d be better off if he never said anything, really. Like after this game, he should have just said “no comment,” because if people want to believe that he said “Mine” rather than “Ha,” they’re still going to.
    It was interesting seeing the “Stray-Rod” article in the Post yesterday — reflecting the public sentiment, the writer took every opportunity to get in a dig. I was thinking about how differently it would have been written if it had been Jeter instead. I did note that he said “no comment” to that business. Good move.

    AngelsFan May 31, 2007, 11:03 am
  • JP- how is what ARod did different from the hidden ball play?
    -Both are meant to cause a mental error on a specific player on the opposite team.
    -Both are non-physical plays, in that the person performing them has no direct influence on the play.
    -Both are entirely within the rules of the game.
    We can’t applaud one, and condemn the other.

    Ayuh - SF May 31, 2007, 11:04 am
  • it was three papers and three finals, thankyouverymuch.
    did you take such a hard line stance when derek lowe was on the sox?

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 11:04 am
  • Ok, one at a time…first of all, I have to discount anything that triskaidekaphobia says about ARod because he has a fear of the number 13…just kidding, trisk…:)
    Ayuh – the hidden ball trick isn’t a batted ball. If you are on base, you should be paying attention to the conference on the mound. You have nothing better to do than to be aware of what’s going on. If you are camped under a pop fly and someone comes up behind you and hollers “I got it,” (or “Mmmmh” or “hey”), you really have no way of knowing if it’s the baserunner or another fielder getting ready to plow into you. It’s not the same thing…at all.
    YFIB – Nice work on the three papers. Here’s to hoping you do a better job writing than you do picking your ball teams to root for…Kidding once again…
    Oh and I hate Derek Lowe…always have, always will.

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 11:11 am
  • “… you can’t buy a blond wig anywhere in the city of Boston right now, totally sold out.”
    Is this true? If so, that’s hysterical.

    z118 May 31, 2007, 11:12 am
  • “I hate Derek Lowe…always have, always will.”
    i hereby declare this remark to be “curious.”
    …heheheh…
    fortunately, he and mr. rodriguez are the only two ballplayers to ever fall prey to the clutches of evil maneaters such as these.
    phew!

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 11:16 am
  • “Is this true? If so, that’s hysterical.”
    i toyed with the idea of checking in a couple of stores… but then i decided it would be more fun just to show up tomorrow night and see if it were true.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 11:18 am
  • paul, i agree with you that we don’t need to go over the arod-tek “fight” again…anyone seeing the replay saw the hbp, then arod walking to first shouting at arroyo?, tek escorting him, then inexplicably bitch-slapping him with his glove, full head gear still in place…it was funny actually…
    by the way sf’s, you may be getting a preview of your 3rd baseman for next year…enjoy
    yfib, don’t be offended by jp-sf’s cheap “woodwork” shot…he may not realize that many of us have lives outside of yf v. sf…i’ve noticed most of the regulars take an occasional sabbatical…most of the soxfans have been reserved in their celebration of the season so far, stopping short of blatant gloating, so jp’s comments give me some glimmer of hope…i was on vacation last week [deep in sox territory], and a surprising number of fans [mostly friends and family] confided in me that while they are trying to enjoy the sox success and yankee troubles, they are just waiting for the sox to blow it somehow…the confidence is just not there even with the big lead…in other words, they’re not having the kind of fun with it that they should be…while i was there we drove to ys for a couple of the sox-yanks games and the sf’s who were with us didn’t even enjoy the victory…they sat almost stoically throughout the entire game, occasionally clapping…i actually felt bad for them, sincerely…

    dc May 31, 2007, 11:21 am
  • A-Rod cannot be sent to San Francisco fast enough, just please leave, please stop it and go away.
    The Blonde wig thing….genius. The Red SoX brass should have a bunch of Toronto Strippers throw out the 1st pitch.

    Shawnfromct May 31, 2007, 11:22 am
  • It’s unfair to accuse SFs of being behind any A-Rod outrage, since it was raised by Blue Jays players. There may be an element of embarrassment at their falling for this ploy that contributes to their vocal complaints, but at the same time it seems clear that this kind of thing just doesn’t happen often. Secondly, I myself, in the first post on this thread, question whether A-Rod is being focused on because of who he is, not because of what he did, so I am not going to sit idly and let people accuse me of unfairly picking on Rodriguez. AJ Pierzynski is a commonly accepted d**chebag – is that because he’s the highest paid player in the game or because he acts like a d**chebag? Probably the latter, so it’s not really fair to chalk up perceptions of a player to his contract, like it is always done with A-Rod. With Rodriguez, this chicken-egg thing with regards to how cleanly he plays the game is becoming a legitimate topic – does A-Rod get all this attention because of who he is or because of what he does? Seems to me like it is easy (it has always been easy) to dismiss it as the former, but his actions are starting to pile up to point to it being at least partially the latter.
    And let’s get something straight here. What Rodriguez did is NOT legal, and this isn’t debatable. It may not be enforced, but it is against the rules nonetheless. So an argument that states that he was just gaining a competitive advantage through legal gamesmanship is not correct. The rule states:
    Official Rules: 2.00 Definition of Terms
    INTERFERENCE
    (a) Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play. If the umpire declares the batter, batter- runner, or a runner out for interference, all other runners shall return to the last base that was in the judgment of the umpire, legally touched at the time of the interference, unless otherwise provided by these rules.

    SF May 31, 2007, 11:24 am
  • “If you are on base, you should be paying attention to the conference on the mound. You have nothing better to do than to be aware of what’s going on. If you are camped under a pop fly and someone comes up behind you and hollers “I got it,” (or “Mmmmh” or “hey”), you really have no way of knowing if it’s the baserunner or another fielder getting ready to plow into you.”
    Who the hell is going to plow into you on an infield pop fly that you’re right underneath of? You don’t have anything better to do in that situation than to catch the ball. A-Rod absolutely did not yet “I got it”. He didn’t say “drop it” or “your mother is a whore”, he said a single pronounced word. It looked like he said “HA” or some desperation move to get the fielder to look at him. Clark was just enough of an idiot to do it. No wonder he’s a career minor leaguer.

    AndrewYF May 31, 2007, 11:26 am
  • A-Rod plays the game dirty. There is no other way to express the facts. He is a dirty player who has zero brains & zero class. I hope he stays with NY and continues to hold their anchor to the the bottom!

    Anonymous May 31, 2007, 11:28 am
  • “the confidence is just not there even with the big lead”
    that hasn’t been the case with any and all sox fans that i work with or the guys on my baseball team… i’ve been on the receiving end for weeks. and i was the first guy to call to offer congrats when the sox actually won, too…
    good to hear that people have been somewaht restrained or measured, but they should be able to enjoy it. otherwise, what’s the point?

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 11:28 am
  • It looked like he said “HA” or some desperation move to get the fielder to look at him
    Yes, it was a “desperation” move. Exactly. That’s the point, mostly, that the Yankees are now resorting to (illegal) desperation moves. Kind of pathetic, you have to admit, right?

    SF May 31, 2007, 11:29 am
  • Uh, sure, we’re not enjoying it. Right. Perhaps some aren’t, but the Sox fans I know (beyond my Mom, who is pathologically negative about the team, despite 2004) are giddy but guarded.
    Realizing it’s still May and “enjoying it” are not mutually exclusive. This season has been a JOY so far, it’s not hard to say that I (for one – won’t speak for my brethren in general terms) am bowled over with excitement and happiness at how the Sox have played.

    SF May 31, 2007, 11:32 am
  • dc – congrats on the vacation…I’d like to take one myself.
    Andrew – Um, the shortstop maybe??? But I love the fact that he used a desperation move…were the Brandon Arroyo sissy slap and the Pedroia shoulder crotch plant desperation moves also?

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 11:32 am
  • “…..that the Yankees are now resorting to (illegal) desperation moves. Kind of pathetic, you have to admit, right?”
    Yankees? It’s Alex, not the Yankees. I have already admitted it to being a bush play what would make you Sox fans happy? Should I change my name, my team affiliation? It was another dumb move in the long list of dumb A-Rod moves, this is not a Yankees desperation move though, it’s an A-Rod thing.

    Triskaidekaphobia May 31, 2007, 11:32 am
  • SF, I’m just wondering if there is a similar rule for fielder’s interference. I know that fielders are not allowed to obstruct the path of the runner. Are they allowed to psyche out (confuse) the runner by any means necessary?

    Nick-YF May 31, 2007, 11:32 am
  • A-Rod called the team desperate, so I guess we can all rest assured that it was a desperation move. In related news, the Yanks are 8 games back of the wild card, and basically have a 1% chance of winning the AL East (if that).

    Nick-YF May 31, 2007, 11:34 am
  • Trisk: I wasn’t addressing you specifically, it was directed towards other commenters taking the critics to task. And yes, you are right: it was A-Rod, not the Yankees. I should have been a little more specific.
    And welcome back, dc.

    SF May 31, 2007, 11:36 am
  • sf, i missed the part about sf’s being behind “arod outrage”…i saw you just making a point about arod’s questionable play, nothing more…
    but, thanks for digging up the rule…like so many rules, it’s so vague that it’s open to interpretaion…do they mean “physical” interference only, or can it include “non-contact acts”, in this case “auditory” interference?…so, now i’m scratching my head over why the ump didn’t make a call…seems like everyone else heard it, why not the ump?

    dc May 31, 2007, 11:37 am
  • perhaps it is pathetic, but when jorge posada says that his team is lacking fire or whatever his exact words were, something must be done.
    their entire season thus far has bordered on pathetic.
    if this gets things turned around, a notion i can wish for even though i highly doubt it, i can accept that.
    i stand by the fact that if it was done to the yankees, i’d be upset that they fell for it, as opposed to the attempt being made.
    somebody was trying to win a game. and it was a yankee. hallelujah.
    i’ve seen guys yell from the dugout when a guy chases a pop up. what is the difference, other than this poor kid fell for it?

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 11:38 am
  • Clearly the rule says the offense cannot “confuse” the fielder, it doesn’t say anything about that being physical. The question would be whether an umpire thought that A-Rod yelling “ha” constituted an effort to “confuse” at the time it happened. Clearly based on the postgame comments from A-Rod it was exactly that.
    I don’t see (as Trisk has said clearly) the big deal in calling this action from A-Rod “d**chebaggery”. It clearly was that. If Julio Lugo did it I’d feel the same way, believe me or not, that’s up to each person on their own. The thing with A-Rod is that he’s starting to grow a pile of these kind of moves. It’s getting harder to ascribe attitudes towards A-Rod to jealousy over his contract and not to the way he plays parts of the game. To me, the “they hate me because I am rich and beautiful” excuse exonerates A-Rod from unscrupulous play and pins blame on the insecurities or jealousy of others, it to some extent immunizes A-Rod against the supposedly reflexively negative attitudes towards him. I am no longer sure this is fair to other players.

    Anonymous May 31, 2007, 11:44 am
  • That was me.

    SF May 31, 2007, 11:45 am
  • > A-Rod plays the game dirty. There is no other way to express the facts.
    Sure there are. He has made a couple of high-profile bad decisions (the slap, the body check, going to NY and expecting to be loved) 99% of the time, he plays the game like everyone else does, except for the fact that he has skills and physical capabilities that most players don’t possess. And he’s sigficantly richer.
    > He is a dirty player who has zero brains & zero class.
    We’ve covered the first part.
    “Zero brains & zero class”
    Do you mean no brain and no class?
    ARod is reported a being an incredibly intelligent person, an ardent student, and a workaholic. Regarding class, I don’t think anything that happens between baseball lines, goal lines, or court lines can tell you whether or not a person has class or not. The level of talent and style of gamesmanship has nothing to do with someone’s true character. You need to get to know someone in the real world to make that evaluation.
    > I hope he stays with NY and continues to hold their anchor to the the bottom!
    He is the only reason they weren’t on the bottom from April 2nd.

    attackgerbil May 31, 2007, 11:46 am
  • thanks guys, it’s good to be back although i already miss my family again…just for the record, my comment about sox fans not enjoying the season so far was a gross generalization based on a tiny sample, but it does bother me believe it or not, especially since i care about those folks…i even refrained from talking about ’78…not having more fun with something that’s clearly worth celebrating [even as early as may] is kind of sad…if the situation were reversed, i’d not likely be making playoff plans so soon, but i’d be on top of the world enjoying every minute…you guys should gloat away, you’ve earned it…

    dc May 31, 2007, 11:49 am
  • this is funny because the only reason it was a “bush league” move was because it actually worked. Does anyone here actually think that no other players on either team have in some way tried to hinder an opposing player from making a play in the field? Im sure that other Yankees and Red Sox players have yelled when a player was near their dugout to make a play and in various other situations. Its naive to think otherwise.
    SF, if this is is illegal isnt it also illegal when a runner screens an infielder on a ground ball to try to confuse him? That is a standard play that many players do. If this guy dropped a ball based on one word that Alex said it his is own damn fault. This doesnt happen to a good third baseman.

    sam YF May 31, 2007, 11:50 am
  • I think before we go ahead and label A-Rod’s actions as douchebaggery we have to figure out whether or not this kind of play happens all the time. A-Rod claims so. The Blue Jays claim otherwise. Larry Bowa said that it was fine to yell “hey hey” but not fine to say “Got it!” or “mine”. There are obvious reasons for both sides to be lying. For Bowa and A-Rod, they lie so as not to be called bush league. For the Blue Jays, they might lie because they were fooled. Is it mere coincidence that the player who fell for the trick was a rookie playing his first game?
    If, in fact, this play is not unusual, then I think the argument calling A-Rod a douche is weaker.

    Nick-YF May 31, 2007, 11:57 am
  • I suppose SF doesn’t see the big deal in calling a lot of things douchebaggery. Every time Manny admires a homerun. Every time David Ortiz argues with the umpire over a call that was clearly a strike. Can we label these players douchebags too, since they pile up these kinds of situations? I’m not sure Sox fans would be okay with that. Every time a fielder plows into another one to try and break up a double play. Every time a catcher talks to the batter while receiving the pitch. Every time Julio Lugo beats his wife. The list can go on, and on, and on. The high horse everyone is speaking from (I would never let my little leaguers do that!) is complete bull. People love to hate A-Rod, because he’s got all the talent he shouldn’t have to resort to saying “ha” and confusing all those poor career minor leaguers. Jeez, what a bully, he should shake their hands and boost their self-confidence for fielding a groundout. Give them applause and congratulations when they beat out his tags. After all, they can’t hope to measure up to him, so he’s got to give them a fair shake. It’s entirely evident A-Rod is held to an unreachable standard by everyone involved. It’s just entirely disingenuous when other people claim to be ‘fair and balanced’ when talking about it. It’s clear that they’re not.

    AndrewYF May 31, 2007, 11:58 am
  • I think it’s fine, what he did. I’m just amazed it worked. Call the guy who let the ball drop a douche, not A-Rod.
    Am I allowed back, typepad?

    Devine May 31, 2007, 11:59 am
  • I’m honestly surprised that this upsets people — I just can’t work up any outrage over it at all. He tried a clever, sneaky ploy, and got away with it. Sportsmanlike? No. But funny as hell. Baseball has a long, proud history of semi-cheating (and outright cheating), from King Kelly to Joe Niekro.
    I really do think this would be a minor, amusing note for almost everybody if it wasn’t A-Rod. And I’ll freely admit that he’s a tough guy to like, and that his previous moves — the Arroyo/Pedroia incidents — are probably a big factor in people’s reaction here. Which is fair. I’m not saying he’s not a jerk… but you know, at least he CARES. He could easily take his massive paycheck, hit his home runs, lose, and go home. He doesn’t need this kind of attention. But clearly he wants to win more than anything, probably a bit too much. It doesn’t make him classy, but it’s probably part of what makes him a dominant player.

    Emma May 31, 2007, 12:00 pm
  • is it a right handed hitter’s obligation to move out of the batter’s box when his teammate is stealing 3rd?
    should a runner retreating to a base to avoid being picked off stay out of the way of the fielder if they’re between the runner and the bag when the throw comes at them?
    what if, god forbid, they have to sneeze, and it’s really a big sneeze, during one of these plays? it is allergy season, after all?

    Anonymous May 31, 2007, 12:01 pm
  • > To me, the “they hate me because I am rich and beautiful” excuse
    I do not think that the one-off comment from ARod in an interview, referring as to why people don’t like him translates into that he gets preferential treatment on the field. The slap was (rightfully) called interference. The body check into Pedroia was rightfully not called. Based on what I know about last night, it doesn’t sound like interference.
    I agree that he has a library of controversial situations, but isn’t that specifically because of his profile and the scrutiny afforded to him?
    Also, fielders use verbal misdirection _all the time_ to confuse baserunners.

    attackgerbil May 31, 2007, 12:03 pm
  • ARod doesn’t admire his HRs? Cano doesn’t half-ass it 3/4ths of the time and act like he’s God’s gift to 2nd base? Mickey Mantle didn’t drink? Babe Ruth didn’t used to whore around with anything that had 2 boobs a hole and a heartbeat??
    The fact of the matter is that every team has players that do this stuff. I wouldn’t be surprised if 90% of the guys cheat on their wives…maybe more than that. ARod doesn’t get a fair shake because he doesn’t deserve one. I am far more likely to cut Jeter slack because he’s earned it.

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 12:05 pm
  • ag – There is no rule against confusing baserunners. That’s why you have base coaches, so that’s a BS argument.

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 12:07 pm
  • jp, if A-Rod admires his home runs, then Manny makes passionate Brangelina (read loud and sexy)love to his homers.

    Nick-YF May 31, 2007, 12:09 pm
  • “ag – There is no rule against confusing baserunners. That’s why you have base coaches, so that’s a BS argument.”
    jp, do you know this for a fact? I guess I didn’t know about the offensive interference “confuse” clause, so now I’m thinking there’s a possibility on the other side. Couldn’t you argue, that the fielders should have a system of communication to combat runner trickery?

    Nick-YF May 31, 2007, 12:11 pm
  • I didn’t know Brangelina had loud and sexy sex…thanks for the mental image. She’s hot. Maybe ARod can hit that next?? :)

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 12:11 pm
  • manny admires his singles. Comparing manny’s post HR glare to anyone else is pointless.

    sam YF May 31, 2007, 12:12 pm
  • What Manny does to his home runs would make Ron Jeremy (and Caligula) blush.
    There! The requisite Ron Jeremy reference is made. Our month quota is filled.

    Nick-YF May 31, 2007, 12:15 pm
  • Andrew – Well said.
    Emma – Your perscpective and humor was sorely lacking around here. The boys tend to work themselves into spasms.
    If by the the grace of God the Yanks manage to turn it around, let one word sum up the spectacle:
    Ha!

    Woosta YF May 31, 2007, 12:16 pm
  • The only comment I see on defensive interference is rule 2.00(b) – Defensive interference is an act by a fielder which hinders or prevents a batter from hitting a pitch.

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 12:17 pm
  • there also is a rule about fielders getting in the way of baserunners. I’ve seen it enforced.

    Nick-YF May 31, 2007, 12:18 pm
  • And sorry, Barry is the premier “admire your HR” guy.

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 12:18 pm
  • The rulebook seems pretty clear to me. The rules in other situations allow runners to come close to fielders without intentionall touching or interfering with the play, so “screening” the fielder seems safe. Likewise, I’ve always been under the impression that batters can be caled for interference if they don’t get out of the way of a CS attempt.
    Anyway, I’m not outraged. But the Yankees did have a lead at the time, no? So A-Rod’s move did not in fact have a direct influence on the outcome of the game. Which both takes the air out of the self-righteous accusers and A-Rod’s own self-righteous claims that he was doing everything he could to “help the team win.”

    Paul SF May 31, 2007, 12:24 pm
  • Nick – that would be obstruction.
    OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball and not in the act of fielding the ball, impedes the progress of any runner.
    Rule 2.00 (Obstruction) Comment: If a fielder is about to receive a thrown ball and if the ball is in flight directly toward and near enough to the fielder so he must occupy his position to receive the ball he may be considered “in the act of fielding a ball.” It is entirely up to the judgment of the umpire as to whether a fielder is in the act of fielding a ball. After a fielder has made an attempt to field a ball and missed, he can no longer be in the “act of fielding” the ball. For example: If an infielder dives at a ground ball and the ball passes him and he continues to lie on the ground and delays the progress of the runner, he very likely has obstructed the runner.

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 12:25 pm
  • > There is no rule against confusing baserunners
    The point is that there can be a lot of chatter on the field. What ARod did, dirty or not, just doesn’t rattle my gourd, nor did it rattle the umpires’, which is really all that matters. I agree with Emma, it’s fun stuff.
    And the last thing I need is John Gibbons, an ex Met, lecturing me on Yankee pride.

    attackgerbil May 31, 2007, 12:26 pm
  • I like when Manny admires his homers. Unless they turn out to be singles that should have been doubles or doubles that should have been triples.
    But as I’ve said before, Manny’s just enamored of home runs. He watches his teammates’ homers from the dugout steps with some excitement, and most of the time, he doesn’t seem to be showing up the pitcher, just kinda liking what he sees.

    Devine May 31, 2007, 12:28 pm
  • hey, everybody… i’m back from the “woodwork” that was my lunchbreak. (i kid…)
    “What Manny does to his home runs would make Ron Jeremy (and Caligula) blush.”
    that right there is hilarious.
    and paul sf, no yankee lead has been safe this season. trust me. i don’t think the 1 or 2 run lead they had in any way detracts from the “trying to win a game” argument. not these days.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 1:11 pm
  • Seriously. Every play is important – let’s not do the “it would’ve been important only if Mo gave up 3 runs” or whatever kind of scenario.
    Slow news day, eh?

    Lar May 31, 2007, 1:25 pm
  • Either way…how low NY has fallen when its offense is forced to rely on confusing an outfielder to induce a dropped ball versus either hitting it out of the park or blooping it in front of the outfielder.
    If I were a YF, I would be embarrassed that its come to this for NY. While on the one hand I love seeing the double digit lead over everyone in the league, on the other hand I miss the intensity a real rivalry brings (as long as the Sox still end up on top…lol).

    Michael (SF) May 31, 2007, 1:29 pm
  • oh… and as for the ballplayer’s observance of the sanctity of marraige issue, here are a couple of reminders of behavior of heroes that is less than heroic:
    batting first, for the yankees, number seven, mickey mantle:
    http://tinyurl.com/otrmr
    (was he married at the time? i don’t know, but he did have a reputation as a ladies’ (plural)man.)
    up next, for the red sox, number nine, ted williams:
    http://tinyurl.com/2s7tdj
    (maybe his wife traveled to detroit with the team. i just love the list of two things he said he needed. if only i had it so easy… there has to be a batting average joke in this somewhere…)

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 1:31 pm
  • I’m actually pretty surpised that there’s even a line in the MLB rulebook about this. I think A-Rod was clearly trying to confuse Clark, and thus broke the rule. The umpire clearly didn’t hear it himself, and wasn’t going to go on a hearsay argument. Absolutely valid. The real fault lies with John McDonald.
    He should probably have been the fielder to handle that popup. Clark wasn’t exactly positioned right under the ball as it was, and I think McDonald probably had the better view in the first place. Plus, he’s a veteran, and one would assume wouldn’t have been screwed up by ridiculous A-Rod noises.
    Any of you coaching Little League, who would encourage your players when they do this…find someone else to coach the team. There’s a vast difference in this incident and it happening to kids in 4th-6th grade. There’s just no reason for kids that age to be trying to gain this kind of “competitive advantage”, and laughing along with them is pretty damned juvenile, and teaches a pretty f**king poor lesson. And yes, this means you Woosta.
    Also, AndrewYF was attempting to make a point, then brought up the Julio Lugo wife-beating incident and killed it. What the hell? The charges were dropped. I’m not saying you should give him the benefit of the doubt…he may have done what was reported. At this point, it’s all about the public opinion. He may still have done it, but it was many years ago and only happened one time. To say “Every time he beats his wife”…is ridiculous, and trying to a create a perpetually re-occurring situation where there isn’t one.
    Also, if Papi argues strike 3 too often, what, exactly, is it that Jeter does? If he (Jeter) didn’t swing at strike 3, then to him it wasn’t one. Neither player is right most of the time.

    QuoSF May 31, 2007, 1:38 pm
  • How is what A-Rod did different from a runner on third distracing the pitcher into a balk? This just happened the other day with Jose Reyes – not a word about it – and he scored the tying run.

    Anonymous May 31, 2007, 1:39 pm
  • In the players’ defense, it would be difficult to turn down world class snatch day after day. But, if you’re going to do that, don’t get married.

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 1:39 pm
  • A world of difference between A-Rod and Reyes. Reyes’s distraction came as a direct result of him taking his lead at 3B, and from what I saw, making minor changes in where he was standing. Maybe they didn’t show enough of it, but I didn’t see where Reyes might’ve been yelling at Benitez in order to try to get him to balk. I don’t think there’s anything in the rulebook that would condemn him for what he actually did.

    QuoSF May 31, 2007, 1:44 pm
  • a fine balk argument, mystery poster.
    (my guess is it was rodriguez himself. genius.)

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 1:44 pm
  • OK, I havent read all the posts here but I wanna make two comments…
    First A-Rod tried to defend his actions by saying it happens 4 or 5 times aweek but normally in foul ground…. Well A-Rod theres a difference between being a asshole screaming into a fielder’s ear on the fair grounds of the field and being a fan in the stands where if you dont catch the ball it costs you runs immediatly.
    Also… about the comment about Sox fans just being upset because Dice K got lit up last night…. Better then getting lit up nearly every night like your pitching staff.

    TJ May 31, 2007, 1:51 pm
  • The balk comment was mine. Been reading the site for a while and it was my first post. Wasn’t sure it was going to post without logging in.
    In the Reyes balk, he was trying to distract the pitcher. Lots of runners do the same thing. I for one, do not see a difference in the plays.
    JS>>>

    Anonymous May 31, 2007, 1:54 pm
  • both instances of attempts at distraction via noise are attempts to prevent an out, tj. the run is not really the issue as far as i can tell, anyway.
    i don’t think that daisuke’s night last night has anything to do with this discussion, and i feel confident that the vast majority of those present would agree. (at least i’d hope that was the case.)

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 1:58 pm
  • oh. i misread part of your post, tj. rodriguez and torre were quoted as saying that players *in* the dugouts often shout at opposing fielders as they try to track down foul balls. not fans.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 2:00 pm
  • I don’t know, I’m coming around on this. I thought the slap in the ALCS was “bush league” personified, but I kind of like my A-Rod with a little Pierzynski in him.
    Is this any different from a shortstop (Lugo does this all the time) trying to deke a base stealer into thinking the catcher’s throw has sailed into center field? Yeah, probably. Is it ALL that different?
    Nah.

    MJL in L.A. (SF) May 31, 2007, 2:00 pm
  • Not just Lugo, MJL, Cora is quite adept (probably even better than Lugo) at deking runners out in that fashion.

    QuoSF May 31, 2007, 2:04 pm
  • deking a runner=gamesmanship
    yelling hey=bush league
    explain.

    sam YF May 31, 2007, 2:07 pm
  • Emma, Great post – please stick around after our dear??? YF returns. You’re a real breath of fresh air.
    And about Strippergate – is anyone else sick of all the puritanical moralizing going on? Or is that just 21st century America? Makes me long for the days when people’s personal lives were a lot more off-limits.

    Andrews May 31, 2007, 2:15 pm
  • sam yf, i’d add a runner distracting a pitcher to that list, too.
    mccarver and his ilk always gush about great runners’ abilities to “rattle” opposing pitchers.
    a fake steal, where a runner takes a running lead and stops cold, is done with the intention of misaligning the defense, get the catcher’s attention, and possibly even the pitcher’s as well.
    i suppose that is alright so long as they don’t say anything out loud.
    my head hurts.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 2:16 pm
  • “for the days when people’s personal lives were a lot more off-limits.”
    like last week?

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 2:17 pm
  • Deking a runner isn’t illegal?

    Paul SF May 31, 2007, 2:20 pm
  • Do we want to live in a world where $252M can’t buy one the privacy to take a stripper out for a night on the town? I didn’t think so.

    QuoSF May 31, 2007, 2:20 pm
  • “Do we want to live in a world where $252M can’t buy one the privacy to take a stripper out for a night on the town? I didn’t think so.”
    it is funny because it is oh so true.
    re:puritanical moralizing
    the same people who are so outraged by this behavior are the ones who buy the tabloids and watch the gossip shows. they prop up this “shame on you” machine while they can’t get enough of the scandals.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 2:24 pm
  • i have failed to be convinced that what he did was illegal. Has anyone ever seen a player called out for saying something while running? I think that calling it illegal is applying this situation to the rule posted above in an invalid way.
    I might not feel this way if Arod yelled “I got it” as he ran by but he did not do so…

    sam YF May 31, 2007, 2:25 pm
  • Sorry, that question mark probably made my sentence more confusing. As far as I know (which is why I put the question mark), none of the items on the list are specifically disallowed in the rules. Attempting to confuse (which implies intent beyond your natural duty as a baserunner, of which leading off a base, faking a steal, running in front of a ground ball, etc., all seem to be part) a fielder in the process of making a play is clearly against the rules. I would never have guessed that, but hey…
    Andrews, those must have been the good old days when stars weren’t called before Congress to explain their personal political beliefs. Or when people weren’t burned and hanged for having strange personal opinions. People don’t change, just the technology.

    Paul SF May 31, 2007, 2:28 pm
  • since we’re going by the letter as opposed to the spirit:
    stealing isn’t one’s duty as a baserunner. that’s why it is “stealing.” faking a steal is clearly optional as well, as opposed to a “duty”. technically, leading is not even required.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 2:36 pm
  • Ugh, the extremely vague concept of moral high ground has kept this thread going too long.
    I read A-Rod’s wife called for a divorce. True?

    Devine May 31, 2007, 2:48 pm
  • Base stealing would be considered a normal duty of the baserunner for the purposes of rulemaking, YFiB. Just because not everyone does it doesn’t mean it’s somehow unusual. I’m pretty sure you already knew that anyway.
    Clearly, I wasn’t going by the letter of the law, but by the law’s intent. Obviously, a bit of gamesmanship is allowed — the hidden-ball trick, deking the runner, etc. are allowed. The fact that confusing a fielder is not makes it pretty clear those who wrote the book intended such play to be illegal.
    Now whether yelling “Ha!” really counts, as opposed to saying “I got it!” or “Mine!”… I don’t know. I do know that A-Rod would be smart enough to know it wouldn’t be a good idea to fess up to saying “I got it!” when asked about it in the postgame.

    Paul SF May 31, 2007, 2:49 pm
  • PS *I* do not miss the tension of the rivalry. The Yanks can stay 10+ games back all season as far as I’m concerned, though I don’t think that will be the case.

    Devine May 31, 2007, 2:49 pm
  • don’t they have a really young daughter? that stinks. (the potential broken home for the girl… not that they reproduced or the child herself.)

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 2:50 pm
  • sox fans trying to stretch the point…the rule is vague as i pointed out earlier, for a reason…it allows umpires to have the discretion so as not to make a stupid judgement call…the spirit of the rule suggests “physical” interference with the fielder attempting to make the play…otherwise baseball would be, uh, golf…good to see quo hasn’t lost his touch, for being wrong and one-sided…you missed the points the other guys were trying to make, but you did get the part right about little leaguers though…i always taught my kids that sportsmanship and learning the game was first, winning didn’t matter….

    dc May 31, 2007, 2:50 pm
  • I don’t know. They do well and win 3 of 4, and then proceeded to lose the next 5. If only, say, they won those 5 instead..

    Lar May 31, 2007, 2:51 pm
  • what about yelling “time out” from the on deck circle during a pitchers wind up? seems like the same thing to me.
    sam- alot of sources are reporting a-rod yelled “mine” opposed to “ha”.

    sf rod May 31, 2007, 2:54 pm
  • the spirit of the rule suggests “physical” interference with the fielder attempting to make the play
    DC, How would one go about confusing a fielder physically? And, assuming one can, why would it be necessary to include that word when it already uses words like “hinders” and “obstructs.” The inclusion of “confuse” makes it pretty clear to me that this is non-physical behavior we’re talking about here.
    (And to reiterate, I’m not very passionate one way or the other on this. Although I believe A-Rod broke the rules, I don’t think it’s a big deal. It’s just fun to have something to debate again.)

    Paul SF May 31, 2007, 2:57 pm
  • There’s a lot of history in MLB of trash-talking, on the field, during games. If you ever have the chance of sitting really close to the field and watching/listening to a Jeff Kent at bat you’ll be let into a club with one name on the door–that name? “CLASSY”
    In any sport you play there will be people that try things like that to jar a player. Frequently, a baserunner with stop and try to hover long enough to obscure a grounded ball from the fielder. I don’t think it’s against the rules since it has never been called against the rules in any game I’ve ever seen or heard about.
    Gibbons? This is the guy that followed his pitcher into the dug-out walkway to have a fist fight with last year…DURING A GAME.
    Attacking A Rod for this is sooo petty.
    Quo–
    If your 4th and 6th graders were making millions a year you would teach them that…it’s also hard to teach against things like that…in any sport. Go look up Don Mattingly, Ted Williams, Dimaggio, SChilling stories about how they treat rookies on and off the basepads.
    Julio Lugo slammed his wife’s face against their SUV in the parking lot. Lugo was found innocent when his wife changed her signed and nine times repeated testimony the DAY OF THE grand jury hearing (turns out she slammed her own face against the SUV when she was turning away from Julio).

    walein May 31, 2007, 2:57 pm
  • Rod- which sources are these? the blue jays? not saying he did or didnt say “mine”. But what the Blue Jays say is as reliable as what Alex says he said…

    sam YF May 31, 2007, 3:02 pm
  • Walein, domestic violence cases are tricky for a reason. Lugo and his wife already were going through a divorce. Not to say one way or another, but do you think she might have had cause to make up a story in the midst of messy divorce proceedings? How are we to know? We can’t. Quo rightly called out the idiotic use of that incident in a previous post listing annoying habits of our favorite ballplayers.

    Paul SF May 31, 2007, 3:06 pm
  • sam- gammons and others on sports radio today. haven’t heard anything from those pesky bluejays.

    sf rod May 31, 2007, 3:11 pm
  • Now there’s a reliable source when it comes to all things Yankees – Gammons.
    Ha!

    Woosta YF May 31, 2007, 3:15 pm
  • Personally, I felt that it was a classless play. John MacDonald said that A-Rod said ‘Mine’ when he passed behind Clark. A-Rod probably knew that it was Clark’s first game with the Jays, and likely didn’t know MacDonald’s voice or playing style. How would Clark have known that it wasn’t MacDonald about to barrel into him? It’s a crap play that takes dignity away from the game. Personally, I am looking forward to the next meeting between the Jays and the Yankees so I can see which pitcher gets the honour of plugging A-Rod in the ribs.

    Anonymous May 31, 2007, 3:15 pm
  • funny that gammons heard rodriguez but the 3rd base ump didn’t…
    don’t get me wrong. i love gammons. i’ve met him a couple of times and he was always a nice guy. but what is he basing this on?

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 3:16 pm
  • “It’s a crap play that takes dignity away from the game.”
    i feel that manny’s eye-humping of each and every HR is far more offensive and the fact that he does this so blatantly and with such regularity does nothing to change my mind.
    nice hustle when running down that double last night, too, mr. ramirez. where’s the fire? you do a great honor to all who have played in that hallowed left field position.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 3:21 pm
  • how is it funny that the guy with the most contacts in baseball for the last 30 years has some inside info?

    sf rod May 31, 2007, 3:21 pm
  • I agree that Domestic violence cases ARE tricky, however, they also can be very easy to understand. The result of that series of events between Lugo and his wife was an attempted reconciliation.
    Lugo slammed his wife’s head against an SUV.

    walein May 31, 2007, 3:26 pm
  • sf rod, i think the “HA!” was used as a reference to rodriguez’s own admitted vocalization.
    …but i could be wrong.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 3:27 pm
  • I don’t know what the Red Sox or Red Sox players have to do with this thread. Honestly. Do people think that some of us SFs are so unprincipled or unsophisticated that we can’t recognize our own players’ foibles or douchebaggery, to use my own term? I find the concept Paul and I are so shallow, biased, and so without standards or a sense of baseball history that we aren’t able to discern when players who wear Sox uniforms do bad things as quite silly. Or the idea that we only think certain actions are lame because they come from Yankees players and not because they are lame as a tad insulting. We’re not 8 year-olds. I have been watching baseball for 30 years, for the record. I certainly don’t think this of YF, Gerb, Nick, Emma, dc, Andrew, Andrews, etc., though I get the sense this sentiment is not reciprocal from a good number of our readership. Reading the archives would reveal that it should be. Taking Sox players to task is obviously harder to do since I root for them, but it’s not taboo, and shouldn’t be, and I have no qualms about doing it.
    Next: the idea that we SFs in general somehow give Julio Lugo a free pass for “wife beating” because he’s a Red Sox is abhorrent. He gets no such pass from me, and I have made this clear in the past — there is a long thread on this and my own comment is here:
    http://yanksfansoxfan.typepad.com/ysfs/2006/12/this_just_in_th.html#comment-26276300).
    Manny’s home run trots are not illegal by the rules, though they certainly, on occasion, skirt the common-sense decency of being a sportsman. I love Manny’s goofiness, I don’t love this aspect of his game at times. Ortiz’ complaints about balls and strikes strike me as white noise – he does do it all the time and at a certain point you just give up on it; it’s part of his on-field personality but I leave it to the umps to take control if need be, if he gets himself tossed from a game for doing it at some point I wouldn’t be surprised. Not sure what else to say about that.
    Last week I posted about A-Rod’s takeout slide, how I didn’t find it to be a big deal, though I did think it on the dirtier side of fair. The same may be true about yesterday’s move. I think there is a legitimate discussion to be had about attitudes towards Rodriguez. The idea that everyone craps on him because they are jealous has always struck me as a copout and, though there may some truth to it, insufficient. I fail to see why asking this question is so terrible.
    Lastly, I have always been an ardent defender of Rodriguez. I have expressed hope that he opts out and ends up in Boston. Earlier this year I even said I’d trade Ortiz for him if the deal was offered. I defended him last week. The point is not to make myself feel better about this issue, but to point out that not liking what he did last night isn’t any evidence of me being irreparably biased. It’s nuance. Not everything is black and white, us vs. them, Sox vs. Yanks. Sometimes certain actions come off as hard-nosed, sometimes they come off as, for lack of a better term, icky. Last week’s slide came off as the former – it was physical and part of the run of play, but last night’s move, to me, felt like the latter, it veered towards bush league. I think the smell test of “would you want your kid to do this during a little league game or would you wince if he did this during a little league game” suffices. I have my answer, clearly many of us come up with different answers. Ironically, the play that bothers me less is the one where someone could have been physically injured, the one that bothers me more had no such implications.
    But the real point is that we discuss baseball here, and sometimes the uniform isn’t relevant. I hope that “yeah, but you’re a [insert either YF or SF here] so obviously you have that predictable and opposite opinion to mine and are incapable of anything else” is used as a last resort, if ever.

    SF May 31, 2007, 3:32 pm
  • dc, being wrong and one-sided?
    My contention all along has been this: A-Rod yelled. It was against the rules, but the umpire didn’t hear it, and thus had no grounds to call him out (unlike the slap play, which everyone saw), so the fault then lies with McDonald, for not stepping in and making the play on the ball he had a better shot at.
    Walein,
    What 4th-6th graders are making millions? And the difference in the way you treat a rookie in the ML and the way you treat a 10 year old should be vast. If you feel that teaching kids to try to play fair is difficult, then you shouldn’t be coaching Little League (and you may not be)
    I wasn’t trying to say that Lugo didn’t neccessarily intentionally harm his wife. He may have. But it was used as an example of a repeated instance, and that clearly isn’t the case.
    I wasn’t arguing the principle, more of a question of “Why the hell is this being lumped in with Manny admiring his home runs or Papi/Jeter arguing 3rd strikes?” It’s apples and oranges, and the Lugo (one-time) incident is clearly worse, and an over-the-top example, probably designed to bait.

    QuoSF May 31, 2007, 3:35 pm
  • Just to defend myself here and to maintain my own sense of honesty — if A-Rod had been the victim, yes, I probably would have laughed. Every damn thing thuuuuuuh Yankees do is mock-worthy these days.
    But my point — that I would have benched any little leaguer for that kind of crap — remains true. Pulled him right out of the game and sent him to run a lap around the field. If he was still smirking when he got back to the bench, I’d send him for another lap. Repeat as necessary.

    Josh May 31, 2007, 3:47 pm
  • Can’t add much to what SF said. I think most of the regular commenters here are fair minded about issues like this. The tenor of the debate today has been very civil and mostly free from the inflammatory generalizations and mischaracterizations of the respective fan bases, and when it’s strayed from that level it’s usually because of people’s whose names I’ve never seen around here before.

    Paul SF May 31, 2007, 3:49 pm
  • “the Lugo (one-time) incident is clearly worse, and an over-the-top example, probably designed to bait.”
    whether it is baiting or not, the whole lugo thing should be dropped.
    i’m not saying this because of the eloquent sf post, either.
    nobody knows what anyone else’s personal relationships are like. i don’t remember there being any witnesses to the lugo incident. this is all as equally as irrelavant to baseball discussion as the stripper/hooker remarks.
    as for sf’s remark about manny’s self admiration not applying (i believe that was directed at me), i was using that as a contrast to remarks that the single “HA!” moment “takes away from the dignity of the game.”
    i personally feel that displays like the ones i witness regularly from ramirez does more harm, mainly due to their frequency. i’m not alone, and i believe beckett took issue with ryan howard watching one go in a spring training game last year. i get angry when guys do that in the crappy league i play in. it is a pet peeve of mine.
    merely contrasting to make a point. one instance, or in this case a series of three instances over a month’s span, versus a series of several hundred instances over the span of a few years.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 3:51 pm
  • People’s = people. Heh.

    Paul SF May 31, 2007, 3:51 pm
  • Not to pummel the dead horse here, but if Jeter would have done this (which don’t believe he’d do in 1,000,000 years), I would have been utterly shocked and chalked it up to a bad day for him. When the ol’ Yankees fan girlfriend told me about the play last night, my first thought was honestly “ARod being bush league – NO WAY!!” (Add dripping sarcasm here). Because of his past, he doesn’t earn a pass from me. Just like Lugo doesn’t earn a pass for his actions and Drew doesn’t earn a pass for being utterly lazy and disinterested on the ballfield from me.

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 3:54 pm
  • So Gammons heard what from whom?
    Either the players on the field or the umps.
    The umps heard nothing – scratch that.
    Arod said he yelled: Ha!
    The Jays said he yelled: Mine!
    Big surprise as to which one Gammons reported. I suppose he had an anonymous “source”, from the “most contacts in baseball”, tell him it was “Mine!”. Yup, no reference where that source came from either.
    Ha!

    Woosta YF May 31, 2007, 3:54 pm
  • Well said, YFIB. But of course it’s easier to get all soap box by disregarding the stink in your own house.

    Woosta YF May 31, 2007, 4:00 pm
  • Gammons has always struck me as having tremendous respect for the Yankees organization, by the way. No joke. His columns have often gushed about the team and their dedication to winning and representing baseball well. I don’t think this has to do with Gammons’ bias against the team, which is a false trope. I have no idea what he thinks about A-Rod, though. Maybe he hates A-Rod. Which would tell us something as well, if that’s the case, which I have no idea if it is.

    SF May 31, 2007, 4:00 pm
  • I’m going to go on a limb and say that if one of my little leaguers was even charged with domestic battery, I’d bench him…I think that’s where one thread of this debate was heading.
    Other things I’d bench little leaguers for:
    -going to a strip club while in a relationship. There are naked women at these places for godsakes!
    -doing any kind of PED. Just unacceptable. Kids shouldn’t use steroids. Only the really unfocussed ones should use speed.
    -Murder-This is an absolute rule on my team. No killing.
    -leaving threatening voice mails on anyone’s phone. Hey, Scooter, can you back up those threats? Didn’t think so. You’re five feet tall if that.

    Nick-YF May 31, 2007, 4:01 pm
  • Not to start a flame war, but of course Gammons has tremendous respect for the Yankee organization. As a true baseball man, who wouldn’t?
    That said, he lets his homer ways sneak through. If he reported that A-Rod said “Mine!”, without attributing it to the Jays, then it’s just another example among many. He takes easy shots when he can. And it’s only gotten worse as the rivalry’s heated up.

    Woosta YF May 31, 2007, 4:07 pm
  • Drew doesn’t earn a pass for being utterly lazy and disinterested on the ballfield from me.
    Now I’m going to shoot myself in the face.

    Paul SF May 31, 2007, 4:07 pm
  • “those must have been the good old days when stars weren’t called before Congress to explain their personal political beliefs. Or when people weren’t burned and hanged for having strange personal opinions. People don’t change, just the technology.”
    You’re right, there are always going to be self-righteous moralizers who try to impose their ethics on others. Hangings, burnings and show trials are good examples of the human cost paid.
    Over the top response aside, I would like to think you understood what I meant…

    Andrews May 31, 2007, 4:07 pm
  • I would sincerely doubt A-Rod’s credibility on the “Ha!/Mine!” debate. He’s lied to the media before, and has every motivation to do so now — moreso than the Jays, who already look like idiots for being deked on the play.

    Paul SF May 31, 2007, 4:09 pm
  • Woosta: As the rivalry has heated up? I’m not comfortable with it, but I don’t think a 13 1/2 game deficit could ever be construed as a “hot rivalry”, just as the Sox deficit to the Yanks at the end of last season kind of sucked all that out of the last few Sox-Yanks games.

    QuoSF May 31, 2007, 4:10 pm
  • The Jays have equal motivation to lie in my view.

    Nick-YF May 31, 2007, 4:11 pm
  • i regard the in-house stink, woosta yf. most people who comment here do, which is why i think so many people (such as myself) keep coming back.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 4:12 pm
  • Per Jayson Stark – One thing we know, however, is this: [The Yankees are] not catching the Red Sox. No team in history ever has been 14½ games out before June and come back to finish first. And only the Miracle Braves were that far back at any point and wound up playing in October.
    Jeezus – why doesn’t he just throw a black cat in front of us???

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 4:14 pm
  • for what it’s worth….gammons said the play was fair, when asked if he thought it was busch league. they also played a postgame clip of a-rod saying the same thing happens to him 3 times a week. i find that hard to believe.

    sf rod May 31, 2007, 4:14 pm
  • And I would sincerely doubt your credibility, Paul. Nah, the Jays have no motivation to make themselves feel better, or even their rookie teammate.
    But if you want to talk about lying to the media, and morality, it seems as if Theo weighed in today and said “some things in baseball you just don’t do”.
    Not that Theo’s ever lied, though. He’s an honest standard bearer of all good things in the game.
    Quo – I’m talking the last few years 2003 – present. Before that I always thought Gammons was objective beyond reproach. Now? He uses his pedestal to take shots at the Yankees.

    Woosta YF May 31, 2007, 4:21 pm
  • a-rod saying the same thing happens to him 3 times a week
    You heard it wrong. This was in response to the question “how often do you galavant, canoodle, with women not your wife?”.

    SF May 31, 2007, 4:25 pm
  • ” Now? He uses his pedestal to take shots at the Yankees.”
    I agree, Woosta. I have never brought it up here, however, because of the firestorm I was sure would result.

    Andrews May 31, 2007, 4:27 pm
  • Careful SF, you’ll be accused of taking cheap shots…although at least you aren’t one of the people whose name Paul has never seen around here before. :)

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 4:27 pm
  • “”how often do you galavant, canoodle, with women not your wife?”
    Watch those shameless expressions of pure jealousy, SF :)

    Andrews May 31, 2007, 4:31 pm
  • Watch those shameless expressions of pure jealousy, SF :)
    I have zero interest in canoodling with A-Rod. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
    ;-)

    SF May 31, 2007, 4:36 pm
  • I didn’t say the Jays had no motivation. Just that they had less. Bringing up Theo Epstein is a silly non sequitur.
    As for Stark and the Sox, if this team were going to be jinxed by the predictions of ESPN pundits, they would have tanked two weeks ago when Steve Phillips said the Yanks had no chance to catch them. Of all the guys at ESPN, Phillips is a sure jinxer. That said, I question that stat he throws out. Sure, it’s factually correct. But is 14.5 in June really so much better than 14 in July, as it was in 1978? I remain thrilled at being in such good shape, but am in no way ready to make such a sweeping prediction is that.

    Paul SF May 31, 2007, 4:39 pm
  • For every “Gammons hates the Yankees” there’s a SF yelling “Gammons tries way too hard to show he doesn’t love the Sox and bashes them accordingly”. I think this debate is akin to the “ESPN is so biased towards the [insert “Red Sox” or “Yankees” here] discussion. Both sets of fans seem to think the network is horribly predisposed to cover each of their teams negatively, despite evidence that they are equal opportunity supporters/bashers. There’s no organizational bias, as far as I can tell, just organizational “finger-in-the-wind”-ism.
    I think the bottom line is that Gammons and ESPN pay a lot of attention to both teams, such is the world of baseball, and I haven’t yet seen convincing evidence that they like or dislike one team more than another in their coverage of the teams. Gammons is a Sox fan, that’s true, but I haven’t really felt like it has come anywhere close to defining him or informing his writing.

    SF May 31, 2007, 4:40 pm
  • the whole deal with the mistress has nothing to do with the discussion of the play. whether it is factual or a cheap shot or both, it is easy to take shots at the guy (or lugo) when we know relatively nothing of the situation.
    both clubhouses could be rampant with adultering womanizers for all we know, and many of the great players were.
    mickey mantle was a geat ballplayer. the fact that he was a terrible husband and father for most of his life has nothing to do with that.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 4:41 pm
  • i’m not alone, and i believe beckett took issue with ryan howard watching one go in a spring training game last year.
    That was because Howard hit a warning-track flyball and stood at the plate admiring it for about 5 seconds. Loud outs do not merit admiration, and Beckett let him know as much.
    As I am a SF, I have no problem with Manny’s campouts at the dish. If he played for someone else, I would. I think we can all agree on that. Really though- if I could hit a 95mph fastball 430+ feet I would do the exact same thing.

    Nate=Soxfan May 31, 2007, 4:44 pm
  • Amen, YFiB.

    Paul SF May 31, 2007, 4:45 pm
  • If the lead reaches 20 games, I will feel comfortable…until then, I will not. The thing I hope is that the Sox become so focused on the Yanks that they forget that there’s 3 other teams in the division.

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 4:48 pm
  • That should read – The think that I hope is that the Sox DON’T become so focused on the Yanks that they forget that there’s 3 other teams in the division. Yikes!!

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 4:49 pm
  • mickey mantle was a geat ballplayer. the fact that he was a terrible husband and father for most of his life has nothing to do with that.
    This is a complicated discussion, YFiB, and what could be a really deep one. The issue of sports-figure idolatry is very complex. Most fans idolize sports figures for their on-field accomplishments, and choose to ignore the off-the-field garbage, no matter how unseemly it might be. Many kids grow up revering people who they, if their whole character was taken into account, would have no reason to admire. DiMaggio is another example of a terrible human being who was deified (and is still held in God-like graces) by many fans, not just Yankees fans. Mantle, as you say, is another. The question of “who should you idolize” is tough. As a parent, I love the idea that my son or daughter may grow up to love watching Big Papi or Jose Reyes, or some other guy who plays the game right. But I wonder how I will discuss with him the possible scenario of one of his idols turning out to be a philanderer, or, worse, a felon? This isn’t an easy subject. I personally don’t think that idolizing sports figures is that smart, though it is understandable. I think the best thing to do is admire their abilities, and allot hero worship to the people who actively change the world for the better. Sometimes, like Roberto Clemente, these fields overlap. More commonly, they don’t.

    SF May 31, 2007, 4:50 pm
  • Why ever should the Jays have less motivation? And you, Paul, brought up lying to the media as somehow indicative of something.
    If you read his lips it’s a lot easier to find “Ha!” than “Mine!” But I still find it funny – hilarious even, and most especially his supressed grins. Ha!
    For the record, I don’t think the fan bias infiltrates Gammons’ writing to the even close to the degree it affects his live reports. He must use a different filter for each. Indeed, I can’t imagine his editors say much about his writing. But I can easily imagine the ESPN producers encouraging more subjectivity.

    Woosta YF May 31, 2007, 4:52 pm
  • “Howard hit a warning-track flyball and stood at the plate admiring it for about 5 seconds. Loud outs do not merit admiration, and Beckett let him know as much.
    As I am a SF, I have no problem with Manny’s campouts at the dish. If he played for someone else, I would. I think we can all agree on that.”
    so an extra 10 feet further or to the left or right gets you permission to stand at home plate until the ball comes down, but without those 10 feet you have no right and deserve to be berated?
    that is pretty arbitrary, no?
    and i can agree that you feel that way about manny and guys on other teams, but i think that is the extent of our mutual understanding.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 4:54 pm
  • I hear you, SF. I am currently going through this very thing with my oldest son (10) and Michael Vick. He absolutely idolizes this guy who is turning out to be not only a disappointment on the field, but a dispicable human being. My little dude doesn’t understand…he just sees the Nike commericals, the way he moves around the field like everyone is standing still and how ‘cool’ he looks in the postgame interview. Seriously, I’d rather he idolize someone like Jeter (who is a philanderer – not against the law) than Vick in a New York second (pun intended). Maybe someday he’ll understand…that’s all I can hope for.

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 4:55 pm
  • Live reports don’t strike me as being very close to actual reporting. It’s just finding little features throughout the game, and those are likely to be complimentary to the teams in the game. So if he sounds pro-anyone during those, I wouldn’t be that surprised.
    A-Rod, having lied to the media before, lacks the credibility others would have when relaying the same incident. Not that no one else (or anyone at all, for that matter) is lying in this situation, but if someone who’s always been a straight shooter with the press and never been known to lie to them says something about an onfield incident, it’s more credible. That’s just life.

    Paul SF May 31, 2007, 4:57 pm
  • Actually, YFiB, for Manny it’s a little different, I mean, he just knows, a good example was the other night, he crushed a ball to deep center, everyone thought it was gone, but I knew it wasn’t, how did I know? I knew because Manny took off running the second he made contact.
    Is he ever wrong? I’m sure he is, but I have yet to see it.
    I honestly think, especially at Fenway, the second he makes contact he knows if that ball is gone or not.

    LocklandSF May 31, 2007, 5:01 pm
  • dimaggio was a “terrible human being”? really?
    the same guy who still has roses sent to marilyn’s grave every week?
    maybe i missed something… i always thought e was a timid little kid from california, uncomfortable in the spotlight. he was short with teammates, sure…
    this isn’t tongue in cheek… i always thought he was supposed to be a good guy… i’m crushed.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 5:02 pm
  • Oh, and… Off days BLOW.

    LocklandSF May 31, 2007, 5:03 pm
  • i don’t care if manny knows or is guessing. he should get beaned or brushed back each time he does that.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 5:05 pm
  • How do we know A-Rod is “straying”? Because the Post said so?
    My buddy has an agreement with his wife that fun on the side is allowed on business trips so long as precautions are made. Who’s to say A-Rod doesn’t have a similar arrangement?
    And whether they do or don’t – it’s none of our business. Me, I’d rather just read about baseball and avoid the People magazine side of sports.

    Woosta YF May 31, 2007, 5:05 pm
  • DiMaggio and Monroe had a famously tempestuous relationship, in which Monroe was physically abused, according to most biographies. DiMaggio was also an alleged serial philanderer.

    SF May 31, 2007, 5:10 pm
  • YFiB, you’re serious? You think Manny should take a pitch off the head for watching his home runs?
    You’re just twisted.

    Anonymous May 31, 2007, 5:11 pm
  • YFiB – Should ARod?
    Woosta – go read that thread (regarding Stray Rod)…I made the same argument. And your buddy is lucky.

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 5:11 pm
  • YFiB…
    FYI:
    “bean ball
    NOUN:
    Baseball
    A pitch aimed at the batter’s head.”

    LocklandSF May 31, 2007, 5:21 pm
  • Paul, you really think you can tell who the “straight shooters” are? And with 100% accuracy? Cause if you can’t reach that level then the argument is moot.
    jp-sf – My buddy’s wife has the same deal. And they’re the two most loving people I know. Amazing really.

    Woosta YF May 31, 2007, 5:22 pm
  • if you saw the replay and can read lips even half-assed you could tell arod yelled “ha” and not “mine”…i still trust gammons, but he is an unabashed sox fan…i still don’t see that the rule was broken paul, you’re speculating that the umpire didn’t hear it…he may have, but just allowed his latitude to interpret the rule to make the judgement that it was not interference…despite the use of the word “confuse” in the rule, the spirit is intended to mean physical contact, otherwise you’d see a call made once in a while for a guy dancing in the basepaths to obstruct the view of a fielder about to make a play…the rule’s not specific, so you get what you get…

    dc May 31, 2007, 5:27 pm
  • Something to think of…
    If you do not know the voice of the other players on your team and you react to a strange voice saying “Hah” or “got it” and miss the play, shame on you.

    Rob May 31, 2007, 5:28 pm
  • Something else to think of – if you are a major league ballplayer and have to resort to saying “Hah” or “got it” in order to help your team win a game, then shame on you.

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 5:44 pm
  • i didn’t mean to imply that manny should “take one in the earhole” as someone eagerly said the jays should put rodriguez through… with nobody calling them on it, by the way… just that if he took a pitch off his rear end a few times after watching a homer, it might make him think twice about doing it each and every time he hits one. that’s all. no injury, but a message. i can’t be the first person to hold this opinion.
    as for joe d., i knew that he and marilyn had some ups and downs, but i didn’t know it was that bad. sucks. this is why i try to separate the two. it hurts when you feel wronged.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 6:06 pm
  • so an extra 10 feet further or to the left or right gets you permission to stand at home plate until the ball comes down, but without those 10 feet you have no right and deserve to be berated?
    That’s kinda the whole point. That extra 10′ is the difference between a run ( or two, or three, or four) and just another out.
    Lemme guess- you also hate it when pitchers yell and pump their fist after getting a big out…
    … not that jeter fist-pump either. I mean a real one ;)

    Nate=Soxfan May 31, 2007, 6:10 pm
  • Nobody called me on it because is justified. Like I said, most times baseball will police itself. Although, I wouldn’t hit him in the head…I’d aim for the knee or ribs. Much bigger bruise.

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 6:15 pm
  • nate=soxfan,
    the whole point is showing someone up.
    a fist pump is usually a spontaneous reaction, it was stated earlier that manny “knows” when he puts one out. this is akin to choreographed and elaborate end zone dances.
    spiking the ball and high fiving teammates? a natural reaction, i’d assume. (like a fist pump…)
    going through an elaborate dance routine every time you score is masterbatory and obnoxious. (like striking an extended self-congratulatory pose in my opinion.)

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 6:25 pm
  • when is headhunting justified? over this? do you know who tony conigliaro is?
    wow. i give up. i’m walking away. i have to get out of the office anyway.
    here’s to a good, competitive series…

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 6:27 pm
  • When your team has been headhunted first. Although I did say that I wouldn’t aim for the head…

    jp-sf May 31, 2007, 6:32 pm
  • Something else to think about – your team is up 13.5, and you still troll on something as relatively trivial as this.

    Lar May 31, 2007, 6:38 pm
  • YFiB, a bean ball is a head shot, that’s what you said, hitting a player on the ass is totallly different than a bean ball, as far as I know, the only person that has said aim for the head, was you.
    Either way, Manny checking out his home runs isn’t cheating, a lot of the stuff Arod has done is cheating.

    LocklandSF May 31, 2007, 6:42 pm
  • You think so, YFiB? Okay, you’re entitled to that opinion as long as you hold it for everyone (and I’m sure you do).
    Me, I think celebrations or watchings (touchdown or homerun) are just fine until they are obscene or they mock the other team. I still see nothing vindictive in most of Manny’s homerun-watchings (Proctor notwithstanding that one time).

    Devine May 31, 2007, 6:43 pm
  • i didn’t mean to imply that manny should “take one in the earhole” as someone eagerly said the jays should put rodriguez through… with nobody calling them on it, by the way
    YFiB, nobody that I recall said A-Rod should be hit in the head. An anonymous poster, I assume it to be JP based on his most recent comments, said someone would probably hit him in the ribs. Sounds like both sides are advocating the same treatment for the respective players, then accusing each other of being headhunters.

    Paul SF May 31, 2007, 6:54 pm
  • here. found it.
    “The funny part is that the next time they play the Jays, I guarantee you ARod takes one in the ear hole…and it’s justified. Baseball has a way of policing itself.
    Posted by: jp-sf | Thursday, May 31, 2007 at 10:27 AM ”
    i’ve always used the term “beanball” to mean “a pitch intended to hit a batter”. my mistake. this is honestly the first timer i’ve been corrected, and i thank you for it.
    the swat at arroyo… years ago… was interference. the other stuff didn’t seem to bother the umps, not that they’re perfect.
    now i really am leaving. later.

    Yankee Fan In Boston May 31, 2007, 6:54 pm
  • just an update. i was watching the Jays broadcast tonite and they were talking about the Arod play last night and they said that the 3b ump said that the above interference rule didnt apply for this play. Say what you will abut the play but it was NOT illegal….

    sam YF May 31, 2007, 7:35 pm
  • This would be an interesting study:
    Scour the archives of the site, document how many YF posters call for Ortiz and Manny to be thrown at. Then do the same and see how many SF posters call for Yankee sluggers to be thrown at.

    SF May 31, 2007, 8:32 pm
  • Funny, that “Little League Smell Test” I offered before has some relevance. Someone at SoSH posted a link to LL’s “Code of Honor”. Here’s a snippet, for real:
    Rules
    Honoring the Game means we refuse to bend the rules to win a game. Getting away with illegal behavior, just because the umpires’ views are blocked, doesn’t change the fact that it is against the rules of the game. (Compare this to the classroom – cheating when the teacher is not looking, is still cheating.)
    Honoring the Game includes the letter and the spirit of our Little League rules. For example, you are a base runner and the batter hits a pop fly towards your part of the field. You see multiple fielders converge under the pop fly and as it comes down, you shout, “I got it! I got it! My ball!” in an attempt to intentionally interfere with the play.
    Another example that comes to mind is a recent World Series game in which a player knocked the ball from the Red Sox first baseman and claimed that the incident was nothing more than a result of his running motion. (The umpires ultimately ruled against the runner on this call.)
    If you win by ignoring or violating the rules, of what value is your victory?

    Link:
    http://www.littleleague.org/media/PCA-honoring_the_game.asp

    SF May 31, 2007, 8:43 pm
  • Too bad the Little League couldn’t get its facts right w/r/t the slap play incident… :-P

    Paul SF June 1, 2007, 8:12 am
  • In a way, I hope the sox end up with ARod next year- would be interesting to see if sf’s would close ranks and embrace this guy that so many of you have vilified…

    Andrews June 1, 2007, 10:30 am
  • I too would be curious at the reaction from the more base levels of the fandom, Andrews. There have been a lot of needless personal attack and vilification that would seem hard to get over. But I imagine if Yankee fans can embrace Johnny Damon…

    Paul SF June 1, 2007, 10:54 am
  • If ARod becomes a Sawk, I still wouldn’t like him. We don’t need him…he hasn’t won anything anywhere he’s went. Sure, he’s made the playoffs…but he hasn’t performed in them.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 10:56 am
  • “if Yankee fans can embrace Johnny Damon…”
    Nothing even close to apples to apples.
    “I too would be curious at the reaction from the more base levels of the fandom, Andrews.”
    I’m not talking about the “more base levels of fandom”, I’m talking about guys on this site, like you, for example. How would you react to ARod in a sox uni (and remember, there’s a lot of documentation in the archives…)?

    Andrews June 1, 2007, 11:27 am
  • “Sure, he’s made the playoffs…but he hasn’t performed in them.”
    True, but his regular season play , in ’04 and ’05 especially, had a lot to do with the Yanks winning the division; no, he hasn’t won a title, but “he hasn’t won anything anywhere he’s went” disregards those 2 MVP’s.

    Anonymous June 1, 2007, 11:32 am
  • “he hasn’t won anything anywhere he’s went” also applied to most of the red sox not too long ago. you were rooting for them then, weren’t you?
    this is a team sport, and one player can’t win a playoff series by themselves. that said, one player can’t lose one, either. everything has to line up in order for a win. the cardinals won the world series last year. jeff weaver was a big part of that. somehow, he happened to find a groove at the right time, while other guys on the cards did as well.
    weaver’s (all too familiar) history would not have indicated that he would be an asset in a playoff run.
    ted williams and don mattingly never “won anything” either, but i’d be damn happy to have either of them on my team.
    most players don’t “win anything”. that’s just the statistical truth.

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 11:45 am
  • You’re joking about his 2 MVPs, right? I mean, one was won on a LAST PLACE team, so that’s undenyiably tainted. The other one that he won was where he wasn’t even the MVP of his own team (Jeter). As a matter of fact, if Papi played defense, he defeats Mr. Rod easily in that vote.
    Most players don’t win anything, but most GREAT players do (see Jeter, Derek, Ramirez, Manny, Ortiz, David, Ruth, Babe, etc., etc., ad infinitum).

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 11:54 am
  • and Ernie Banks, Ted Williams. I suppose these are not GREAT players? They don’t seem to fit into the ad infinitum.
    In 2005, A-Rod was the MVP of his team and the league. And yes, it would have helped Papi’s case if he played in the field. The fact that he doesn’t is no small thing when measuring his value.

    Nick-YF June 1, 2007, 11:58 am
  • but if ortiz was signed by another team say… i don’t know… let’s say the yankees (oh, how i wish it were true), and they didn’t win, would ortiz be any less “great”?
    if yogi berra played on teams that won only 1 world series instead of a staggering 10, would he be less of a hall of famer or an all time great or however you want to phrase it?
    do you feel that wins are a good method of judging a pitcher’s overall performance?
    i think this comparison is fair.

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 12:01 pm
  • 50 years from now, the record books will still say ’03 & ’05 MVP – Alex Rodriguez, so no, that’s no joke.
    ” but most GREAT players do”
    That’s silly – there are lots of HOFers who never won a title. It’s a team sport, right?

    Andrews June 1, 2007, 12:01 pm
  • conversely, many NON-GREAT players manage to win championships. The Yanks haven’t won since Clay Bellinger left. The Sox have not won since Kevin Millar and Pokey Reese left. Most NON-GREAT players (AJ Pyrzinski, Jeff Weaver, David Eckstein, Juan Uribe, ad infinitum) figure out a way to win the whole thing.

    Nick-YF June 1, 2007, 12:02 pm
  • no, nick… yogi has more rings than anyone else, therefore he is, beyond a doubt the single greatest player the game has ever known.

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 12:04 pm
  • i guarantee you that the whole “winning = greatness” argument would have been shot down by any red sox fan pre-2004.
    to be fair, i don’t think the majority of sox fans (especially here)would defend it now, either.

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 12:06 pm
  • Actually, whether he plays in the field or not SHOULDN’T hurt his case. Like it or not, the DH is a legally recognized POSITION. Furthermore, not everyone can do it effectively. But whatever…
    As for your Berra argument (along with Nick’s Banks and Williams argument), I said most great players win championships…there are always exceptions that prove the rule. Nobody is disputing that ARod is a great player. I am disputing that he knows how to win and thrive under pressure. He’s no Big Papi with the game on the line…
    Pitching is a more subjective position…many things go into pitching, wins, era, run support, K/BB ratio, etc…so no, pitching isn’t about wins only.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 12:10 pm
  • > Sure, he’s made the playoffs…but he hasn’t performed in them.
    That’s not quite accurate. True, he was far from an asset in 05/06, but there’s lots of Yankee hitters you can throw into that pile. In ’04 he killed Minnesota and was fair against Boston. He had an excellent post-season in 2000 against Chicago and the Yankees.

    attackgerbil June 1, 2007, 12:15 pm
  • I am utterly shocked that the Yanks fans here cannot grasp what I’m saying [insert dripping sarcasm here].
    Dudes, we all know that there are crappy players that win championships and great players that don’t…however, what I am saying about ALEX RODRIGUEZ is that so far, to date, as of JUNE 1, 2007, he has not proven his ability to play in the postseason or perform consistently under pressure…so no, I don’t want him on the Red Sox. I may be in the minority, but that is the way I feel. Does everyone that the Sox currently have perform under pressure (or proven their ability to do so)? No. So there are certain players on the team that I am not thrilled with (Lugo, Drew to name 2).
    And whether or not the record books recognize ARod as the 2003 MVP is neither here nor there in my eyes. Just like when Barry breaks the HR record, I will not recognize it either.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 12:16 pm
  • Who is Big Papi with the game on the line?! Albert Pujols?
    I think A-Rod is an exception to your rule. Just as I think Ted Williams is as well. I’ll elave it at that.
    Another thing, I’m not disputing that the DH is a legal position, and that DH’s should be considered for the MVP. BUT, the fact that they don’t contribute on defense detracts from their value. It doesn’t mean that a DH is or should be incapable of winning the MVP, but essentially by not fielding a position he is enabling the worst fielder on the team to play out in the field every day. Papi’s awesome offensive stats, in my view, were not that much better than A-Rod’s in 2005 to compensate for the detrimental effect he had on the team defensively.

    Nick-YF June 1, 2007, 12:19 pm
  • i’m on the fence on the whole dh argument. i can see both sides.
    “knowing how to win”? wasn’t rodriguez just admonished for “knowing” a method that would help his team “win”?
    now you’re changing your argument from not winning where he was to not being “clutch”.

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 12:22 pm
  • Actually, Papi didn’t have any detrimental effect defensively…that’s why he was the DH. If it weren’t for Papi in 2005, the Sox would have dropped probably 10-15 more games than they did. He performed under pressure time and again in 2005.
    ARod is the king of the 3 run hr when you’re either up 8 or down 8. He hit a couple walkoffs this year, sure…but the big deal that was made over them should tell you about his ability to perform under pressure. If it had been Papi that had done this in April, you would have seen a lot of “Big Papi Strikes Again” headlines from the start.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 12:23 pm
  • Big Papi being the DH means Manny can’t be the DH means Manny plays left field every day. Manny is a very poor outfielder. He hurts the Sox on the defense.

    Nick-YF June 1, 2007, 12:25 pm
  • “but the big deal that was made over them should tell you about his ability to perform under pressure. If it had been Papi that had done this in April, you would have seen a lot of “Big Papi Strikes Again” headlines from the start.”
    so nobody makes a big deal when ortiz hits a game winning hit?
    espn et. al line up to give the guy a happy ending. what does that say about his ability?
    bogus logic.

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 12:26 pm
  • Who was the better player: Cal Ripken Jr. or Edgar Martinez? Discuss.

    Nick-YF June 1, 2007, 12:29 pm
  • Manny isn’t all that bad defensively. Actually, he’s just as good as Matsui. Lifetime fielding of .978 or .980. Most assists in a year 19 or 11.
    guess which one is which.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 12:29 pm
  • Matsui is a poor defender, althought the stats you cite are pretty meaningless. Assists?! That means a team is willing to run on you. Not a good sign.

    Nick-YF June 1, 2007, 12:31 pm
  • My point, YFiB, is that you get TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT REACTIONS when ARod does it as opposed to Ortiz. When ARod does it, it’s like everyone’s shocked. When Ortiz does it, it’s like everyone’s amazed how he can do it time after time.
    See the difference??

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 12:31 pm
  • Nick – Assists are not meaningless. If a team is willing to run on you and they get cut down time after time, you are a defensive asset…not a liability.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 12:33 pm
  • playing in a short LF for 86 games can do wonders for an assist count.
    that said, i’ve come around on manny’s fielding. he’s actually pretty good when he wants to be.
    …but that’s the problem. (see the double to the gap and his pursuit thereafter in their last game.)

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 12:34 pm
  • Manny is a bad defender. Only the most delusional Sox fans think otherwise. It’s like Yanks fan who think Jeter is good in the field.

    Nick-YF June 1, 2007, 12:35 pm
  • No, Manny doesn’t hurt you in left. Jeter doesn’t hurt you at short. They’re not great, but it’s not like they’re terrible.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 12:37 pm
  • > If it weren’t for Papi in 2005, the Sox would have dropped probably 10-15 more games than they did.
    Well, if you want to look at it that way, ARod’s VORP was something like 99; Papi’s was somewhere around 86.
    Whatever. Look, Ortiz could have won the award and I would have been fine with it. Both players were awesome with the stick that season. I don’t understand how anyone can call either player as undeserving; it makes no sense whatsoever. I am so sick of the 2005 MVP award argument.
    > When ARod does it, it’s like everyone’s shocked.
    That’s simply not true.
    > When Ortiz does it, it’s like everyone’s amazed how he can do it time after time.
    He is an incredible hitter; I am amazed when he doesn’t do it.
    By any measure, Manny is not a good left fielder. Greatest pure right-handed hitter of our generation? Quite possibly.

    attackgerbil June 1, 2007, 12:40 pm
  • jp, the media have TWO DIFFERENT RELATIONSHIPS with ortiz and rodriguez, justified or not.
    ortiz is the darling. (nothing against him, i’d love to buy him a beer and hang out with him.)
    rodriguez is the villain. nobody other than bonds gets hammered day after day the way this guy does.
    oh… and as for who was better between ripken and martinez, i would say whoever was more “clutch”. that is the sole measure of a player’s worth, now that “knowing how to win” has been conveniently tossed aside.

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 12:40 pm
  • no, they’re both pretty terrible at their respective positions.
    But back to the main point. Ortiz, by not playing in the field, is enabling the worst defender (whoever that may be) to play every day in the field. It’s through no fault of Ortiz’s own, perhaps. The SOx’s management has made that decision to put Ortiz as DH. Still, his contribution on defense is not neutral. It actually has a bad effect.
    Edgar Martinez was one of the greatest hitters we’ve ever seen. He was a better offensive player than Cal Ripken Jr. and yet most people, including me, would rather have had Ripken on their team. Why?

    Nick-YF June 1, 2007, 12:42 pm
  • Clutch and knowing how to win is like tomato tomahto…
    ag – I’m amazed when Papi doesn’t do it either.
    Ripken/Martinez? For years Ripken hurt his team by playing short instead of moving to 3rd. I love that guy, but he was pretty selfish.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 12:44 pm
  • “I am so sick of the 2005 MVP award argument.”
    Ah, but the argument occurred in better days. It’s better than my inner argument this year. Who would you rather have on the Yanks-Terrence Long or Bobby Abreu?
    That’s why I’m indulging the bit of nostalgia.

    Nick-YF June 1, 2007, 12:45 pm
  • ” I am so sick of the 2005 MVP award argument.”
    I agree 100 percent

    Andrews June 1, 2007, 12:48 pm
  • clutch play by rodriguez the other night, huh?
    got that run in. in the ninth inning. in a close game.
    the press just threw the guy a party for him, didn’t they?
    “SEE THE DIFFERENCE?”
    …and “Clutch and knowing how to win is like tomato tomahto…” is correct, but i don’t think we agree on why.

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 12:49 pm
  • “Who would you rather have on the Yanks-Terrence Long or Bobby Abreu?”
    Wow, that’s dark! Late night?

    Andrews June 1, 2007, 12:50 pm
  • If by “clutch” you mean “bush league bordering on cheating” then yes, I agree.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 12:51 pm
  • i was just thinking that having this discussion was similar to a joe morgan chat session.
    then i thought of firejoemorgan.com.
    then i did a quick search and found this:
    http://tinyurl.com/2o3na4
    all about how the anti-clutch argument is hilarious and pointless and wrong.
    check it out. they (and the numbers) are worth reading.

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 12:55 pm
  • I thought this summed it up nicely…
    “What point are you making about ARod right now? Do you even know?
    The Yankees could win without him, but that doesn’t mean they should move him.
    Who said anything about moving him? He’s one of the three best players in baseball, even playing out of position to satisfy Jeter’s ego. He makes $25m a year. Who would take him? Why would they trade him? What are you talking about?
    He’s still a great player, one who will help a team win a lot of games over the course of the season.
    Uh huh…steady now…that’s good, Mike…keep it together…
    He never was the player who will carry a team to a championship, and probably never will be. But that’s what he’s always been and what the Yankees accepted when they traded for him. If they want a great clutch hitter, it’s not fair to carp about A-Rod. They’ve got the money. Let them buy one.”

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 1:00 pm
  • yeah… have you ever read a celzic article? trust me, you don’t want to use him to back yourself up.
    try this one:
    http://tinyurl.com/3x8tqa

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 1:02 pm
  • jp, you left off

    All together now:
    What????????

    in your excerpt.

    attackgerbil June 1, 2007, 1:09 pm
  • So, can you formulate your own opinions or are you satisfied to let others formulate them for you? [READ I am unimpressed with the articles]

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 1:09 pm
  • True, ag, I did…

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 1:10 pm
  • you are unimpressed with them because they do not conform to your opinion.
    i offered them up to you because i thought they might be enlightening.
    i have my own opinions. i have been sharing them with you for a while this morning, yesterday,too. i was just showing you another take on my stance, thinking that perhaps i just wasn’t articulating my views in a way that that you could relate to.
    i sent the articles because they contained numbers. i didn’t feel like looking for stats. lazy, but i thought it would accompany my opinion well.
    i thought that it was a better idea than simply stating my opinion, folding my arms and declaring that to be fact and whenever someone challenged my opinions, shift over to another vague discussion and repeating that pattern.
    [READ I am unimpressed with your illogical arguments]
    …but that’s why we’re here, isn’t it?

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 1:19 pm
  • FACT:
    A player can not drive in 130 runs in 1 year without a substantial amount of “clutch” hits. There were not 40 “tack on” 3R HRs that year.

    sam YF June 1, 2007, 1:22 pm
  • careful, sam… he might bust out the caps lock button…

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 1:24 pm
  • YFiB – dude, I was kidding…calm down. And my arguments (or the stance I’m taking – another tomato tomahto) aren’t illogical, just not conforming to your beliefs.
    Sam – a player cannot drive in 50 runs in one year without a substantial amount of clutch hits…what’s your point?
    Mine was that he is the king of 3 run HRs when you’re up big or down big.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 1:25 pm
  • i’m as calm as can be. your stance on clutch is baseless. as is your “knowing how to win” theory.
    i would love to see a statistic to back up the “king of 3 run HRs when you’re up big or down big” claim. what are you basing this on? a shaughnessey article? did he use actual numbers? or whatever your source is?

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 1:30 pm
  • your point is wrong though JP. Arod hits HRs all the time when they are “needed” and when they are “unneeded” Same holds true for Ortiz and Manny. They are also the Kings of 3R HRs when the sox are up big or down big because they hit alot of Home Runs.

    sam YF June 1, 2007, 1:31 pm
  • It’s the 9th inning, 2 outs. The Yanks are up 3-2. There’s a runner on (base doesn’t matter for the very limited purpose of this example). Ortiz is up. As a Yankees fan, are you worried? And yes, Mo is pitching.
    Same situation, only with the Sox up 1. Know what I’m thinking if ARod is up in this situation? THANK GOD JETER DIDN’T TIE/WIN THE GAME…thanks for coming, everyone drive home safely. And more often than not, ARod will end the game with an out.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 1:37 pm
  • Whoops, my hand had a small seizure when I hit the post button last time. All apologies for the double post.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 1:38 pm
  • we all know that is your opinion.
    although you didn’t enjoy the articles (or the numbers that backed my opinion) that i offered you, i attempted to give you a basis for my view.
    can you give me anything other than your gut feeling that might change my mind?

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 1:40 pm
  • > And more often than not, ARod will end the game with an out.
    More often then not, any player who has ever played the game will end the game with an out.

    Anonymous June 1, 2007, 1:45 pm
  • ARod in close/late situations from 2004-06 – .268 8 HR 39 RBI in 231 AB; RISP/2 outs – .278 13 94 in 234 AB.
    Ortiz (same sits) – .328 27 HR 80 RBI in 235 AB; .308 14 101 in 195 AB.
    OK??

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 1:47 pm
  • jp just won the argument, and what an argument it has been.
    So in summary: When A-Rod, Ted Williams and Ernie Banks are/were up with two outs in the bottom of the ninth with their team traling by 1 run, we know to hit the exits so as to beat traffic. This is because they are not clutch and don’t know how to win the big one (See lack of championships for the reason). But Ted Williams an Ernie Banks don’t apply to this rule because there are always exceptions to the rule. So, A-Rod, who has hit two walk-off homeruns this season, should be the focus of this rule because the perception is that he is an unclutch performer (witness the wild reaction to his illusionary accomplishments in April). Meanwhile, David Ortiz is better than A-Rod in this situation. He is also scarier than Manny, Miguel Cabrera, and basically everyone else based on the last three years of work. But let’s not focus on those guys because some of them won championships and some of them didn’t and regardless there are always exceptions to the rules on both sides (except in the special case of A-Rod who it is statistically proven and perceptually-supported does not know how to win games and be clutch. Ergo, A-Rod is a great player but he doesn’t know how to win.
    Would it be wrong to point out that most games are not won by walk-off hits?

    Nick-YF June 1, 2007, 1:49 pm
  • thanks.
    pretty comparable with RISP/2 outs, no?
    anything for the 3 run HRs when you’re up big or down big? that is the one i was really hoping for… i’ve heard that for a while now, but nobody ever gives me a number.

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 1:51 pm
  • eh… give him a chance, nick… he’s getting into it now…

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 1:52 pm
  • “Would it be wrong to point out that most games are not won by walk-off hits?”
    heh.
    i wish someone would keep track of how often rodriguez’s 3rd inning shot or whatever has been the winning run.

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 1:55 pm
  • Nick – bitter much? Anyhow, we’re not talking about games that are won/lost before the last inning. Further we weren’t talking about any of the other players you mentioned. We were talking about Ortiz and ARod in late inning “clutch” situations. Try to keep your eye on the bouncing ball here, chief. Oh and don’t hate Ortiz because he’s beautiful.
    YFiB – They are pretty comparable, however, I’ll point out that Ortiz has hit 1 more HR and driven in 7 more runs in 40 less at bats….
    As for the other stat…I’ll do some digging and report back.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 1:58 pm
  • not bitter at all. not bitter at all. Just following your bouncing ball of logic. It’s fun. Like being in a kaleidescope dream. I can’t wait for more.

    Nick-YF June 1, 2007, 2:02 pm
  • in nick’s defense, the ball has bounced quite a bit.
    it started with:”If ARod becomes a Sawk, I still wouldn’t like him. We don’t need him…he hasn’t won anything anywhere he’s went. Sure, he’s made the playoffs…but he hasn’t performed in them.”
    that shifted a few times before we settled on the current discourse.
    (by the way, i offered numbers to the contrary of the playoff claim in one of those articles. sorry had to get that in there.)

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 2:09 pm
  • Also, a 3R HR when your team is down big – say 6 runs – is still a big home run because it brings them closer to catching up. Conversely, the same hit while your team is up big, also means something as it puts the game out of reach. This is why if Ortiz hit a shot with Sox winning 7-2, the SF reaction isnt “eh, who cares? its meaningless.”

    sam YF June 1, 2007, 2:10 pm
  • Ok, here’s ARod’s HR stats…483 total
    Inning 1-3 – 187 or 38.7%
    4-6 – 169 or 34.9%
    7-9+ – 127 or 26.2%
    Rel Score
    +4.. 60 (12.4%)
    +3 41 (8%)
    +2 27 (5.5%)
    +1 52 (10.7%)
    Tied 137 (28.3%)
    -1 56 (11.6%)
    -2 32 (6.6%)
    -3 26 (5.3%)
    -4.. 52 (10.7%)
    Ortiz – 240 career HRs
    Inning 1-3 – 67 or 27.9%
    4-6 – 94 or 39.2%
    7-9+ – 79 or 32.9%
    Rel Score
    +4.. 22 (9.1%)
    +3 19 (8%)
    +2 23 (9.5%)
    +1 21 (8.8%)
    Tied 74 (30.8%)
    -1 27 (11.3%)
    -2 20 (8.3%)
    -3 9 (3.7%)
    -4.. 25 (10.4%)
    So there you have it…interpret what you will…

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 2:14 pm
  • first interpretation:
    A-Rod’s hit 243 more homeruns than Big Papi.

    Nick-YF June 1, 2007, 2:17 pm
  • y’know, sam, i feel the same way, but i’m still interested to see if anyone anywhere has kept track of the 3 run up/down thing. i wouldn’t know where to go to find out, yet everybody throws that at rodriguez. it is the perception (once again, perpetuated by sportswriters, etc.) that never seems to be backed up.
    also… i’m going to the game tonight. if ortiz hits a walk off tonight, giving the sox a 154.6666 game lead over the yankees, is that still “clutch”? if rodriguez does to pull them within 153 games?
    situational numbers like jp gave me do far more to change my mind than just saying somebody is clutch or that they know how to win. that stuff is mccarveresque and a huge generalization.
    i will be so impressed if jp finds stats on this. (i’d also love a link to see where it is from… that source would be a goldmine.)

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 2:17 pm
  • Nick – Kaledeiscope dream those numbers.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 2:17 pm
  • YFiB – the Rel Score stat is the +/-3 run thing you wanted…and everything was taken from baseballreference.com

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 2:21 pm
  • holy crap.
    where did you find that?
    awesome.
    thank you.
    y’know… the numbers are pretty damned even…
    thank you, jp. you just did what i’ve been asking people to do for at least 2 years now.

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 2:21 pm
  • > first interpretation:
    >
    > A-Rod’s hit 243 more homeruns than Big Papi.
    That’s really funny.

    attackgerbil June 1, 2007, 2:21 pm
  • The interpretations are blue, yellow, green and so many different colors. It’s almost impossible to make meaning out of them.

    Nick-YF June 1, 2007, 2:22 pm
  • these numbers remind me why I want A-Rod to continue being a Yank until he retires. It’s be pretty special seeing him break the homerun record in pinstripes…at least for me.

    Nick-YF June 1, 2007, 2:25 pm
  • YFiB – You’re welcome. Glad I could be of service.
    Nick – your HR observation was funnier than your color one. Some jokes work, some don’t.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 2:25 pm
  • “everything was taken from baseballreference.com”
    …i will now hang my head in shame… of course they would have that. but i was right, they are a goldmine.

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 2:26 pm
  • nick, sad thing is that the ny post just gave him every reason in the world to get out of dodge. if he stays, he is the man. that would take cajones.

    Yankee Fan In Boston June 1, 2007, 2:29 pm
  • You know, if ARod breaks the HR record (I honestly think he has a shot to hit 825+), I will be happy for him. There is no disputing that he is a great player and can hit. I AM disputing his ability to perform under pressure. I also believe that he makes questionable judgment calls when in the “heat of the moment” i.e. the Arroyo, Pedroia and Blue Jays plays…

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 2:31 pm
  • I interpret this as I did earlier without the numbers. These guys hit lots of HRs in lots of different situations. There is no difference between % of HRs hit -4 and a minimal difference +4. They dont choose when they hit them.
    Sabermeticians (sp?) have basically put the theory of clutch hitting to bed as much as we would like to believe in it.

    sam YF June 1, 2007, 2:32 pm
  • So the fact that ARod hits 73.8% of his HRs in innings 1-6 as opposed to Ortiz, who hits 72.1% of his HRs in in innings 4-9+ doesn’t count for anything? Wouldn’t you say that the pressure increases as the game goes on??

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 2:36 pm
  • > doesn’t count for anything?
    No, it doesn’t. That framing of the numbers is a very shady way of presenting the statistic, right out of the lies, damn lies idiom, marginalizing that there is only a 7% differential in innings 7-9; that is a ratio of 1 in 15. Percentage wise, there really is not that much of a difference as to when they hit their home runs. And no, I would not say that “pressure” increases as the game goes on. It’s completely situational. Basically, both guys hit approximately 1/3 of their home runs in each third of the game.

    attackgerbil June 1, 2007, 2:59 pm
  • Have you ever played any organized sport? Of course the pressure increases as time runs out. And no, both players don’t hit 1/3 of their HRs in each 1/3 of the game.
    ARod hits 40% of his HRs at the beginning 1/3 in the middle and 1/4 at the end.
    Papi hits 1/4th at the beginning, 40% in the middle and 1/3 at the end.
    I think we all can agree that a player that has proven himself in big, late game situations is one you’d want up IN that situation.
    But, if I need a HR in the 1st 3 innings of the game, I go with ARod.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 3:05 pm
  • Why dont we comapre apples to apples?
    Arod hits 61.1% of his HRs after the 4th compared with 72.1% for Ortiz. So thats an 11% difference on the face of it. I dont feel like doing a statistical analysis, but given the smaller sample size for Ortiz I highly doubt this difference is statistically significant. Furthermore, HRs are not the only way to judge an effect on a game.
    Incidently, Manny has hit 63.5% of his 478 HRs after the 4th inning. So does that mean he isnt clutch? Your choice JP…

    sam YF June 1, 2007, 3:06 pm
  • If we need the better player, I go with A-Rod.

    Nick-YF June 1, 2007, 3:06 pm
  • Manny is more clutch than ARod, but not as clutch as Ortiz in that situation.
    And Nick, that’s good because if I want to win games, I go with Ortiz.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 3:09 pm
  • K, guys…I am off to the woodwork for the weekend. :)
    Have a great weekend.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 3:12 pm
  • “Manny is more clutch than ARod, but not as clutch as Ortiz in that situation.”
    Until Arod hits 2 HR in the 5th inning of 2 games this week and Manny hits 2 in the first. Then Arod becomes more clutch?
    This is seriously a joke. Id say HRs earlier in the game is more impressive because they are hit off of Starting pitchers who are on the whole much better than late inning relief pitchers.
    Arod has hit a HR every 14.4 AB in his career and Ortiz every 16. Does that count for anything?

    sam YF June 1, 2007, 3:14 pm
  • Some people have a true gift for the treatment facts, opinions and statistics and treating them as one fluid, mutable substance.
    > Have you ever played any organized sport
    My personal experience doesn’t have bearing on deceptive statistical presentations or statements made as fact that simply don’t stand up to scrutiny, but yes, team as well as individual.
    > of course the pressure increases as time runs out.
    It’s a good thing baseball doesn’t have a clock.
    > I think we all can agree that a player that has proven himself in big, late game situations is one you’d want up IN that situation.
    Nope, can’t agree. It depends on who’s pitching.

    attackgerbil June 1, 2007, 3:30 pm
  • Sam – What’s a joke is that you actually believe the crap you’re spouting. Performing under pressure isn’t a game by game event…it’s a cumulative thing. Even you can’t be that dumb. And yes, the fact that ARod has hit them more frequently does count for something. But we can agree that Ortiz was a late bloomer whereas ARod was a great hitter from the start.
    ag – baseball does have a ‘clock’ of sorts. it’s the bottom of the 9th inning on. That is all pressure packed…especially in extra innnings. And, according to Sam, it’s more impressive to hit HRs in the early innings b/c the pitchers are better…which is totally bunk…a great stopper is just as good, if not better than a great starter. Just look at the Paps situation this year. He would have been a great starter…but he’s a lights out reliever, waaaaay more important.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 5:29 pm
  • JP, sorry but you are wrong. Yes a lights out reliver is just as good as a SP but how many of those are there? 2-3? It is a fact that overall SPs (not all) are better pitchers than RPs. If you dont get that, you dont understand baseball at all.
    As for the game by game, I was illustrating the point that A-Rod and Manny’s % of HRs hit after the 4th inning could easily be reversed since they are so close right now. This was in response to your blanket statement ranking the “clutchness” (whatever the hell that is) of the three players.

    sam YF June 1, 2007, 6:27 pm
  • So if the game is tied or the team down by 1 run A Rod has hit about 100 HRs more than Ortiz? I guess that answers it right?

    walein June 1, 2007, 6:43 pm
  • Waelin – depends on how many more at bats he has…
    Face facts guys, stats can be manipulated any way you want them to be to prove/disprove points. you will always like the players on your team better than the players on ours. Just makes for fun arguments.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 6:46 pm
  • Okay then, let’s drill down to the ninth inning. Career numbers, in the ninth inning:
    Ortiz
    351 plate appearances, 19 hr
    18.47 pa/hr
    .229 batting average
    .766 OPS
    Rodriguez
    476 plate appearances, 25 hr
    19.04 pa/hr
    .250 batting average
    .787 OPS
    To answer your question again, whom I would pick out of these two phenomenal hitters is still based on who is pitching.

    attackgerbil June 1, 2007, 6:46 pm
  • It may depend on how many plate appearances one has or it may just mean that Alex Rodriguez has 100 more homeruns in situations where his team was tied or down by 1 run. It’s not like David Ortiz is 15 and Alex Rodriguez is 50 years old.

    walein June 1, 2007, 6:50 pm
  • No, but ARod has been in the league almost 4 seasons longer.

    jp-sf June 1, 2007, 6:54 pm
  • and has hit twice as many HRs

    sam YF June 1, 2007, 6:54 pm
  • >Face facts guys
    I think when actual facts have been stated, they have been faced fairly
    >stats can be manipulated any way you want them to be to prove/disprove points
    Or they can be applied judiciously and give a reasonably understandable summary as to a player’s past performance regardless of the “aura and mystique” to which a player becomes subject because of singular events in high-profile situations blown out of proportion by intense focus on those events, leading to statements of opinion that do not reflect the body of a player’s work.

    attackgerbil June 1, 2007, 7:02 pm
  • > that do not
    more fairly: that do or do not

    attackgerbil June 1, 2007, 7:19 pm
  • .229 hitter in the 9th inning? Man I had no idea Ortiz was such a choker!
    (I jest of course)

    sam YF June 1, 2007, 7:50 pm
  • It’s fun to watch facts, statistics, opinions, and emotions try to just get along.

    attackgerbil June 1, 2007, 8:21 pm
  • Are we ready to put the Arod is not clutch thing to bed yet?

    sam YF June 4, 2007, 8:31 am
  • Speaking of bitchslapping, you might want to check out this video of Canadian comedian Josh Rimer. It makes me laugh! http://youtu.be/yDCk3NN_HAs

    Recycle2011 December 31, 2011, 11:55 am

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