When Animals Yankees Fans Attack

Meeeow.

"perhaps the single most reckless and irresponsible expenditure in the history of professional sports"

"The Sox will likely join the Yankees near the $200 million budget plateau"

Proving once again that many sports fans are both hyperbolists AND bad at math.

31 comments… add one
  • …sf, that guy’s opinion doesn’t matter…looks like he’s not an expert, just a dope like us with a contrary opinion…he is showing some obvious sour grapes, not unlike you guys when you lost damon, contreras, and others…no sour grapes here…good luck to you and your mgmt…i [humbly] think it will be a good pickup, despite any risk…
    …what he did say correctly, but not very tactfully, is that it is risky…so?…signing randy johnson and kevin brown was risky too…
    …what he also says that makes sense is that you will start to see your budget creep up, but the yanks will too…that’s probably why theo is so adamant about sprinkling in some [less expensive] youth…you may however find youself in the position where your digs about the yankee payroll won’t have as much steam anymore…
    …i’ve seen the other posts about the $40m not being “real” money in a sense, but the fact remains that it does have to be paid [less the offset for mktg, etc.], along with what will probably be a fairly healthy and perhaps lengthy contract…i’ve heard that boras doesn’t have his usual leverage, because only one team will be in the game, but he is a proven shark, and may be willing to see the guy go back to japan rather than sign an “unfair” contract…then we’ll have a mess on our hands…

    dc November 11, 2006, 10:00 am
  • Speaking of attacks, there was the time I was told I obviously knew nothing about baseball, had my head up my ass — and worse — because I said it was possible Wang might possibly have a better season than Wakefield and Giambi might even have a chance to have as good a season as Manny.
    So how did that turn out?
    Wang obviously had a much better season than Wakefield. Wake had injury problems, but that’s part of the equation, and my statement, when a pitcher gets old. Even a knuckleballer, as we saw.
    Giambi – Manny’s more complicated. Jason had 9 more games, 2 more home runs, 11 more rbis, and 13 more runs scored. Manny had batting average 59 points higher than Giambi, who didn’t deal with the shift as well as Papi eventually did.
    When they both had 125 games, Jason was ahead in the categories that Papi says are the ones they’re paid for (runs). He had injuries, cortisone shots and slumped a little. Manny had injuries, sat himself down, and did better than Giambi when he did bat.
    W-L ERA G CG SH INN H R ER HR BB SO
    Wang 19-6 3.63 34* 2 1 218 233 92 88 12 52 76
    Wakefield 7-11 4.63 23 1 0 140 135 80 72 19 51 90
    G HR RBI R BB AVG OBP OPS
    Giambi 139 37 113 92 110 .253 .413 1.300
    Ramirez 130 35 102 79 100 .312 .439 1.058
    * 1 inning in relief, with 1 save

    john November 11, 2006, 10:12 am
  • What’s that proverb about stopped clocks, John?
    You should quit gloating after the Wang/Wakefield comparison, John. If you think that Manny and Giambi were comparable you are still as nuts as ever.

    SF November 11, 2006, 10:28 am
  • …sorry sf, except for BA and OBP, the stats are comparable for this year only…i’ll concede careers to you…and ortiz did make that claim about what numbers were important in his whine about jeter probably winning the mvp…gotta go win john on this one…
    …as for pitchers, it might be more fair to deviate from the original prediction and line wang up against one of the full season sox pitchers…

    dc November 11, 2006, 10:48 am
  • Giambi hit .231 from July 1st on, and started 64 games at position. And who hits behind him?
    Compare those with Manny: no set #5 hitter all year (Manny walked 16 times intentionally to Giambi’s 12, in 9 fewer games), plays a position every day (hasn’t that been established as a legitimate knock against Ortiz at this site, by fans of both ilks?). You would have a very hard time finding a single person that would trade Manny’s season for Giambi’s. There were YFs at this site arguing that Manny might have been the AL MVP, even.

    SF November 11, 2006, 11:08 am
  • dc: you are mostly right. But I do believe there is a difference between a $40M posting fee plus X dollars for a contract versus $40M+X for the contract alone. As mentioned in an earlier thread, there is an offset against revenue (reducing revenue sharing obligations, so a net savings), marketing money (if Matsuzaka does ok, obviously – if he stinks the money may dry up), and a potentially shorter and less-risky contract. We’re not talking about a poor team in the Red Sox, just a less-rich team. The payroll is not going to be anywhere NEAR $200M, as far as I can tell, even if they add a player like Drew and a legit closer. That’s absurd. And even if it did approach $200M, I would assume that John Henry has determined that for this year and going forward that is acceptable. He’s a businessman, and a very succesful one, after all. Does anyone think the Sox haven’t made a determination of what DM would be worth in foreign marketing? You think they are flying blind? This new ownership has focussed on the business side of things as much if not more than the baseball side of things. How can anyone in their right mind think the team is acting foolhardy and without a comprehension of the actual dollars and sense risk/reward of a posting fee and contract of this magnitude? That says nothing about the actual performance of Matsuzaka, of course, which is unknown. But that unknown has most certainly been theorized about in the front office, and not just in baseball terms. The Sox, if this rumor is true, have made a calculated risk, and we shouldn’t assume that if the risk goes sour, that they are irreparably crippled. This ownership group has no such reputation for recklessness.
    What I really want is for fans across the board to look at the Matsuzaka signing (independent of what team he goes to) as not a simple “x dollars for x years” contract, lumping the posting together with the contract. That math is simplistic, and not fully informative. The Yankees will be afforded the same leeway from this Sox fan, if it turns out that they get DM, just to be clear.

    SF November 11, 2006, 11:20 am
  • “This ownership group has no such reputation for recklessness.”
    This is close to a tautological argument in defense of Sox management, and I think it detracts from an otherwise intelligent, well-articulated and correct (in my view) analysis. The decision should be viewed in the context in which it took place; not in the light that Henry and Theo and Larry are purportedly smart people. In that case, every decision the Sox ownership has made has been smart and reasonable because they are smart and reasonable people. I’m being nitpicky…
    Regarding your larger point, yes, I agree. I think most posters here see the difference between separating the posting fee from the contract rather than lumping it in with the contract. I think, if the story is true, that this is a very bold and admirable move on the part of Henry and company. It’s risky, but the upside for the franchise is huge, and it proves, without a doubt, that the front office is trying its best to field a winning team that is will be financially successful well into the future. If I were a Sox fan, I’d pray the reports were true.

    Nick-YF November 11, 2006, 11:44 am
  • Nick, I understand where you are coming from re: tautology. I am not trying to say “they are smart, therefore they make smart decisions”. I am pointing out that the Sox (and this ownership group in particular) have spent a great deal of energy on the business side of things out in the open, and this (possible) bid smacks of business, to a great deal. I am speculating that they have done a good deal of analysis on what a positive influence Matsuzaka might be on the business of the Sox, and calculated an amount accordingly. Of course, just because they are smart doesn’t make everything they do smart. See Clement, Matt, or Renteria, Edgar. But this is an entirely different kind of move with different implications from both baseball and business standpoints.

    SF November 11, 2006, 11:59 am
  • Here’s a question: how bad does Buster Olney look if he’s wrong? And who is his source, and why wouldn’t he out the source if it turns out he’s basically been lied to?

    SF November 11, 2006, 12:12 pm
  • ” The Yankees will be afforded the same leeway from this Sox fan, if it turns out that they get DM, just to be clear.”
    Oh my SF, that’s really magnanimous of you, now that it appears Boston will get the rights to DMat.
    Somehow, if the Yankees had bid 40 mil. and were looking at another 50-60 mil. to sign him, I think your take on the matter might be a little different.
    And quit acting like the 40 mil. posting fee (or whatever it turns out to be), is just an inconsequential footnote. Based on a 5 year contract, Boston would already be paying 8 mil. a year to have DMat pitch for them, before they pay him a nickle on his contract, irregardless of the luxury tax.
    BTW, speaking of stopped clocks, I haven’t posted here for a while, but I see your still tossing crude obnoxious comments towards John. Some things never change. As one of the leaders of this site SF, you should set an example of civil discussion and debate, not resort to bullying and insults when it fits your mood.

    whatever November 11, 2006, 12:30 pm
  • now that it appears Boston will get the rights to DMat.
    No, it’s not apparent yet. There’s nobody but Olney reporting this, and he’s been unreliable in the past. I am making no assumptions about who will get DM. In fact, there are opposing rumors that the Angels have submitted a huge bid as well. There’s no news yet, only speculation. I wouldn’t be surprised if Olney was wrong.
    And quit acting like the 40 mil. posting fee (or whatever it turns out to be), is just an inconsequential footnote
    Who said it’s “inconsequential”? It’s not. It’s a huge number. And it’s a big risk. But the number has to be looked at in context, that’s all I am asking for.

    SF November 11, 2006, 12:43 pm
  • Personally, I don’t care what teams spend on players (an easy stance to take being a Yankee fan). Most teams will use any excuse to raise ticket prices and concessions.
    That being said, I think the fact that any team who eventually “wins” the right to negotiate with DMat will have to pay upwards of 35-40 Mil before they actually sign him, says more about the marketplace for quality starting pitching than it does about the teams involved.
    The rumor is that Vincente Padilla is looking for 10 mil a year in a multi-year contract…and he’s VINCENTE PADILLA!
    I think the added value of a Japanese superstar and the revenue he brings in internationally also ups the price. Beyond Boston (or ANA or NYY) trying to get a starting pitcher who can give them alot of innings and perform at a high enough level to keep them competitive thru a 162 game season, they are also investing in a product proven to have a very successful career in a very viable market.
    There’s also the idea that Boston and Anaheim are trying to break into a pool of major league ready players that their competitors already have a space in (Yankees with Irabu and then Matsui, SEA with Ichiro).
    And when they up your season ticket prices and beer goes up .75 just know that they would have done it anyway…at least now they can pretend they have an excuse.

    walein November 11, 2006, 12:59 pm
  • Are you kidding me? This from the “Matsuzaka watch” blog:
    “The single most reckless and irresponsible expenditure in the history of professional sports, going way beyond the Alex Rodriguez’ Texas contract”?
    Wow, buddy, that’s quite a helping of “homer” crying….even for an admitted Yankee fan.
    Look at the facts….
    This pitcher will change the dynamic much like the Johnny Damon signing did (a two way reversal….like being first and goal in football and the having a possible touchdown pass picked off and returned 100 yards the other way for a TD against you and a 14 point turnaround).
    Although you acknowledge that the Red Sox will make major inroads in Japan, you are missing that the Sox own 80% of NESN much like the Yankees own 100% of the YES network.
    So hello to the new revenue stream that will help to offset in part the cost of aquiring Matsuzaka in the first place.
    Texas did not sign A-Rod to keep him away from any opponent and did not gain any international foothold and did not leverage their own network for business purposes…
    You of all people should know that YES provides the Yankees far more resources than any other MLB club has at their disposal. And the ownership of the Yankees has been willing to spend to sign very talented players. The Red Sox are simply doing the same thing here.
    Why the sour grapes and tears?
    Steinbrenner himself took a jab at the Sox when his club consumated the A-Rod deal by insinuating the Sox were too cheap to pay A-Rod’s salary and let their deal for him fade accordingly.
    Now Steinbrenner’s advice has been implemented. That’s called learning from past experience.
    The Sox outmanuvered the Yankees and got Matsuzaka.
    Stop whining and get over it.

    bobbybucks November 11, 2006, 1:37 pm
  • The Sox haven’t done anything yet, BB. This is all rumor, unsubstantiated.

    SF November 11, 2006, 1:50 pm
  • Outmaneuvered! How cute.

    tom yf November 11, 2006, 2:39 pm
  • …all this positive talk may jinx it, sf…
    re. manny v. giambi: it’s just a fun look at comparative stats, don’t get all tense about it sf…john had a point, and a good one…[apparently you and john have a history according to whatever’s post….and i thought i was your antagonist]…i don’t know who the yf’s are on this site who knocked ortiz for not playing a position, but you’ll have to introduce me to them sometime…as for manny, i’ve seen some chatter on the site about whether or not HE actually plays a position…[not me]
    …i think you got a little hostile with me in your response to my comments about the DM transaction…why not try actually reading my posts before you respond…i have not said that your current management is “flying blind” or anything like that…in fact the last sentence of my first paragraph in my 10:00am post was pretty conciliatory…
    …as for the $40m and potential layout for the contract, i don’t care what math you use, or if it’s just monopoly money, it’s a lot to gamble with on a guy with no ml experience, even for a good gamble…but one that i’m sure the team put a lot of time and research into…like you say, they didn’t get to be successful on the business side without having the smarts…so the only knock against the player or your team by me is in your imagination…
    …i have to agree with whatever…somehow i think if the yanks wound up with the winning bid, we’d hear a lot of criticism about the evil empire’s unfair advantage over their poorer baseball cousins…but somehow this time spending a lot of money is quite easily rationalized as just being good business…i think we may be seeing the beginning of the end of the classic argument that “we can’t compete with the yankees resources and budget”, which i recall was theo’s excuse for sox fans when he whiffed on abreu at the trade deadline…

    dc November 11, 2006, 4:11 pm
  • dc: I was responding substantively. Sorry that you read it as hostile. I think most of the discussions about DM here have been rational, on both sides. I wasn’t being hostile on that subject.
    As for whether anyone believes that I would cut the Yankees any slack on this scenario were the tables turned, you can either believe me or not. I am not anti-Yankees to the point where I start ignoring the realities of the world, and this situation has idiosyncracies (and yes, risks) that conventional signings do not. Most of all, I have made zero assumptions about the truth of Olney’s report, so take that for what it’s worth. You could substitute “Yankees” for “Red Sox” in most cases in all of my posts (not all, but most) and my take on the signing would remain the same.
    But you don’t have to believe me, if you don’t want.
    As for Ortiz, my point was that there was a good deal of agreement that an MVP candidate that plays a position has a leg up on one who doesn’t. It would seem that a Manny-Giambi comparison might involve a similar criterion.

    SF November 11, 2006, 4:24 pm
  • …fair enough sf…

    dc November 11, 2006, 4:36 pm
  • This is hilarious. Sox fans gloating over something that hasnt even been close to confirmed yet. Guees you guys are dying for some good news.
    Bobby, I wouldnt go spouting off just yet. You’re going to look awful stupid if this rumor is just that.
    And for that kind of money….you can have him. Just better hope he’s that good.

    csyf November 11, 2006, 5:28 pm
  • I don’t understand the “it’s too much money” arguments. Although it’s fun to criticize the Yankees for “buying a World Series,” it’s not accurate, nor does it matter. The Red Sox are rich; the Yankees are rich. It’s not our money they’re spending. If the money they spend — and the high prices we pay for tickets — result in a championship, then hooray for all of us, fans and ownership alike. We ALL got our money’s worth.
    Since it’s NOT my money, and it is the Sox’, and they seem to have no problems with the cost, then great! We got the best pitcher out there this offseason.
    And ,whatever, you can’t simply dismiss the perfectly valid argument that the posting fee should be looked at separately. It likely is not coming out of the Red Sox’ operating budget, and because it’s paid up front, it actually costs less than the per-year figures thrown around (because it’s in 2006 dollars, and inflation would make the per-year money cost more five years from now). If John Henry spends $40 million buying some investment firm, and puts the profits he expects to gain from that firm toward the Red Sox, does that mean we start considering that purchase as part of the Sox’ payroll? Of course we don’t. Sure, Matsuzaka is a baseball player and will play for the Red Sox. But the posting-fee rights aren’t coming from the same pool as his salary. To just lump them together in an inaccurate per-annum construct is disingenuous.

    Paul SF November 11, 2006, 5:51 pm
  • Yeah, but, when the Yankee fans have that attitude, “Since it’s NOT my money, and it is the Sox’, and they seem to have no problems with the cost, then great! We got the best pitcher out there this offseason”, everyone says that we’re buy wins.
    So….? You can’t have it both ways.
    I agree, if the management wants to spend their money to field the best team, then great.
    But welcome to our world, my friend. The attitude that you all have been give us a hard time about for the past few years, is exactly what you’re doing now.

    csyf November 11, 2006, 6:07 pm
  • I wouldn’t say “you all,” cs, especially not this site. I think we’re a little more sophisticated than to criticize the Yankees’ $200M payroll when we’re at $120M.
    I understand the point though. Something tells me if there were any underdog sentimentality left for the Red Sox after 2004, sch a bid would effectively remove it.

    Paul SF November 11, 2006, 6:14 pm
  • Paul,
    You and SF seem to be in full spin mode to try to justify the huge expenditure the Sox are facing to try to sign Matsuzaka.
    The fact of the matter is, that 40 million bucks is coming out of the Red Sox coffers, no matter what alternative pool you think it’s being sucked out of.
    And don’t think that if all this comes to fruition, that it won’t have an effect on other moves the Sox might make this offseason.
    If you want to call it an investment and say some of it could be recouped in years to come, OK, fine. But at this point in time, it’s money the Red Sox have to pay to obtain the services of Mr. Matsuzaka, so it has to be figured into the equation, and by the way, that’s the way all the sites I’ve read so far are looking at it.

    Anonymous November 11, 2006, 7:24 pm
  • That would be me directly above.

    whatever November 11, 2006, 7:28 pm
  • When you bid 40+ million, you didn’t “outmanuver”.. “outmuscle”, perhaps.
    I’m a YF, and loved to get Matsuzaka, but at 20+ mil per (and while you can argue that it doesn’t count against the cap, you also have to remember that it’s all upfront, afaik (feel to to correct me!), which at the least means you have to amortize some interest rate..
    Though to be fair, a “12+5” mil contract for the Yanks + luxary tax is probably in the 20 mil per anyhow. But I don’t know if it’s worth it. I honestly don’t know if it’s worth it if he puts up say, numbers that are slightly better that Mussina.
    There’s always the upside, but when you pay that much, the only way to make it “pay off” is if he pitched like Santana… just wow.

    Lar November 11, 2006, 8:08 pm
  • whatever, you’re understating it when you call it “full spin mode”…this is the sox spin machine in overdrive…that’s the breeze you feel…all of a sudden they were just having “fun” criticizing the yanks for spending too much money to buy a ws, and too “sophisticated” to criticize the yankees payroll…yankee bashing is one of the pillars of this site, and spending has been a common theme of that criticism, so the backpedaling you’re starting to see is to avoid being slapped with the “hypocrite” label…

    dc November 11, 2006, 8:48 pm
  • Thanks for being the gracious and welcoming host, SF, as ever. Wang was better than Wakefield. Period. So thanks again for acknowledging that your animal attack was ridiculous, and that it’s not only Yankee fans who act like jerks.
    As for Giambi versus Manny, it’s arguable. Turning on the famous SF scorn I guess is just RSN insecurity. Did I say Giambi had a better season? No. I said it was it was a possible comparison, and that turned out to be true.
    Brad gave me a handicap, because obviously Manny was favored. Giambi had a better season than Manny the year he won the MVP, but Manny’s clearly had the better career.
    Brad, if you won, it was a double or nothing bet, and you’ll notice that I’ve never cashed your check from the Cashman bet, so we’re even. If I won, the point was never to take your money, so you owe me a drink or two if we’re ever in a bar together.
    The point was to give SF a little accountability for his tantrums. That may be impossible.

    john November 12, 2006, 7:39 am
  • John, my apologies. The Giambi-Manny comparison this year was, as you say, arguable.
    But I wish you had been here during the season and discussed these issues throughout the year, instead of just popping up after seven months of absence and basically thumbing your nose at the site, bragging about your predictions. It’s been a mostly civil and intelligent discourse here, so pardon me for being a bit annoyed that you seemed to appear, all of a sudden, when it most suited you.

    SF November 12, 2006, 8:50 am
  • SF, pardon me for losing interest in the site when you told me I had my head up my ass. I’m not interested in a discussion like that.

    john November 13, 2006, 8:53 am
  • I should have added — I had a bet with Brad to settle. I still have his check from the first bet.

    john November 13, 2006, 8:55 am
  • Plus ├ža change…

    SF November 13, 2006, 8:56 am

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