32 comments… add one
I can’t say that I’m not happy, but I’m sorry for the YFs on this website. The Red Sox collapse was 1000x more pathetic, but I’m sure YFs feel just as bad this morning as us SFs felt last week.
Having said that, Happy Yankees Elimination Day everybody!
“I’m sure YFs feel just as bad this morning as us SFs felt last week.”
Ummm, no. I’m not jumping for joy but this team surpassed expectations all season long. It’s much easier to accept because of that. The Sox by contrast not only had the worst collapse in baseball history, they were predicted by many to win it all. The differences couldn’t be more stark. The Yankees overachieved.
I do wonder if we’ll look back on this ALDS a year from now, like 1995, and wonder what if had they had the courage to go with youth over “experience”. There’s little doubt in my mind that Montero would have had some big hits in this series had they trusted him. Even in this game, where the pen was cruising, he should have replaced Martin, who looked awful. Think Tony Fernandez versus Derek Jeter. Worse, they had much more evidence of Montero’s skill when he did play whereas Jeter never really got a good look in 1995. Both debuted at 21 years old.
Spin it all you want, but in isolation losing to the Tigers, who threw the best pitcher on earth only one time in the series, is a massive underachievement). Not “5-21 September” pathetic (that stands all alone in the corner), but nonetheless it was a toothless effort. The Tigers are weak as hell, and they were defanged even further by the rain. The Yankees totally coughed this one up and these “aw, heck we never expected them to get this far!” stuff is a bit hard to take after they proved themselves by winning a brutal division and excelling for an entire season.
This was a series they absolutely should have won going away.
James, I did say that the Red Sox collapse was 1000x more pathetic. Nobody is saying otherwise. My point is that the feeling you have when you know that you won’t see your team play until Feb/Mar is universally awful.
“The Tigers are weak as hell”
Their pitching isn’t.
“The Yankees totally coughed this one up”
They were down 2-1. That’s hardly coughing up anything.
“they proved themselves by winning a brutal division”
They proved themselves by not utterly collapsing like their closest rival.
“This was a series they absolutely should have won going away.”
The Tigers have a team that could go to the Series. You might hold your tongue before you’re forced to eat crow…again.
I very well may eat crow. That doesn’t change the fact the losing a Verlander start should have been more than enough to put the Yankees in the driver’s seat, and they missed the opportunity.
And the Yankees didn’t win the division because the Sox collapsed (the Sox missed the playoffs because the Sox collapsed). The Yankees won the division because they were a superior team, the best in the AL. And they lost to a weaker, Verlander-crippled Tigers team. It’s spin to just say “aw, we weren’t that good and this was all a suprise so thanks guys!”. The Yankees coughed up an opportunity.
Meanwhile, if you are CC’s agent do you opt out or just negotiate behind the scenes for an extension? If he opts out who steps up to the plate for his services?
Sorry SF but I think you’re overstating things. The rain – which as you note knocked out a Verlander start – also knocked out a CC start. And everyone knew thhat the Yanks were singularly dependent on their ace this post-season.
Moreover, the Yanks simply did overachieve this year. You just can’t say this “superior team” stuff when NO ONE would have expected the Yanks to win a division with Burnett, Nova, Bartolo, and Garcia getting as many starts as they did. This team overachieved pure and simple. They lost to a team I certainly hoped they’d beat but was in no way at all confident that they would. And I think that attitude is fairly representative of YFs who calmly assessed this team’s post-season chances. I’m tired and bummed today, but no – I don’t feel like my team just finished being on the wrong side of a major upset.
But yes Atheose, I understood your sentiment as being exactly as you clarify: it always sucks when your team’s run comes to an end. Yes, it does.
If cc goes the yankees rotation is quite laughable. Could this guy possibly be in a stronger negotiating position???
The rain – which as you note knocked out a Verlander start – also knocked out a CC start.
I get that, but to me it was like trading queens in a chess game where you have the stronger remaining board.
As for “overachieving”, they did overachieve expectations. But once the season progressed it was pretty clear that Nova was just a good pitcher, and that guys like Gardner and Granderson had improved to the point where they could no longer be considered unknown or unreliable or limited. So yes, they overachieved (from what people thought they’d achieve early on), but the sample size was very large and they were a very good team, surely one that would and should beat that Tigers team 7 or 8 times out of 10 in a short series. Unfortunately this was on of those 2 or 3 other times. In that way, they missed an opportunity.
The stronger remaining chessboard? Really? Pitching wins championships and our non-CC pitching included Nova – who got hurt 2 innings into one of his two starts; freddy garcia; and AJ Burnett who had a worse season than any starter other tthan Lackey. You really think that those starters were stronger than Fister – who had a great second start, scherzer, who has a great record vs. The Yankees, and Porcello? I do not think it is at all clear that the yankees were in stronger shpe on that front. In terms of bullpens, the tigers are one of 2 or 3 teams that you could argue have pens as strong or even stronger than the Yanks pen. Offense? Sure. Here the Yanks should have been better. But in a short series pitching is all-important and the Tigers pitching was simply better than the Yanks, both on paper (esp when you account for an injury-abbreviated Nova start) and in reality. The Yanks missed an opportunity – sure. If the Tigers had lost they wouyld have lost an opportunity. I’m not at all clear which would have been more shocking given the above.
“My point is that the feeling you have when you know that you won’t see your team play until Feb/Mar is universally awful.”
Not really. I’m already looking forward to Montero and Banuelos next year.
“And the Yankees didn’t win the division because the Sox collapsed”
Weren’t the Sox in first place most of the season?
“It’s spin to just say “aw, we weren’t that good and this was all a suprise so thanks guys!”
Except that’s exactly how I felt all season long. You can’t spin my thoughts even as you spin your own.
“You just can’t say this “superior team” stuff when NO ONE would have expected the Yanks to win a division with Burnett, Nova, Bartolo, and Garcia getting as many starts as they did. ”
“I don’t feel like my team just finished being on the wrong side of a major upset.”
“I get that, but to me it was like trading queens in a chess game where you have the stronger remaining board.”
Except they didn’t. Fister had a better season than any Yankee not named CC. And Max Scherzer came up big. They got beat by better pitching including Detroit’s pen. That’s the game.
” one that would and should beat that Tigers team 7 or 8 times out of 10 in a short series.”
Nice job pulling numbers out of your ass. This Tigers team won its division by 15 games – the biggest spread in the game. They’re hardly chopped liver. They have the best pitcher in the game and a top 5 hitter.
I’ll continue to laugh at your team’s epic collapse, thank you very much. Good luck on cheering on Lucchino and Henry!
SF clearly would rather tweak YFs with his own brand of spin than reflect on the sorry state of his team. That’s the point of the site, but funny how he now has all the time in the world to troll but didn’t show up in September.
James, don’t you think you’re being over-the-top man? You can’t accuse SF of “trolling” on the one hand while you throw out comments about laughing at his team’s “epic collapse” on the other. you and I agree on the assessment we had of the Yanks’ chances coming into the post-season, but I don’t get joy from this site by rubbing SFs’ faces in it even while I took great joy in the team’s collapse itself, much as Atheose did last night vis-a-vis the NYY.
SF clearly would rather tweak YFs with his own brand of spin than reflect on the sorry state of his team.
Well, this is totally true. For today. After that, back to generalities.
but funny how he now has all the time in the world to troll but didn’t show up in September.
As for this, well, this isn’t accurate. I made something like 18 comments in the last week of the season and have made another 11 or 12 in the week following the end of the season, several of which were related to the Sox’ predicament. But your reality is your own. Enjoy.
“James, don’t you think you’re being over-the-top man?”
He’s now posting Photoshops to tweak YFs. Did any YF moderator do the same in the shadow of The Collapse?
“But your reality is your own.”
You know that all too well, don’t you? Doesn’t matter how YFs here actually feel. You’ll spin it any way you want.
I have to say I’m a little surprised that SF’s are taking the time to post shots at the Yankees. I can’t recall much from the other side regarding the Sox season.
Whatever, it’s hockey season anyway so see you guys next season.
The pic up top was very much meant in jest, no offense meant at all. I tagged it as humor and hoped it would be seen that way. I guess I could have waited another day or two but it came to mind and took about five minutes. Sorry if it was ill-timed.
As for the shots at YFs, well, there were some going the other way here. Not that this absolves me of being a tad petty, but it went on here. Also, we SFs were taking plenty of shots at our own team!
As for the core YFs at this site, as I just said to Gerb in an email offline I am sorry you guys are bummed out today – you, IH, John, Gerb, etc. are great fans and fun to banter with. I am not, however, sorry for why you are bummed out. That’s expected, though, right?
I pronmise to refrain from schadenfreude comments.
I do have one sincere question, though (and I ask this understanding that the Sox have players of whom I could ask the same question): Alex Rodriguez – what are your thoughts on a return to his previous form? Given his age and that nasty hip injury it’s probably asking to much for any more of those amazing seasons (although anything is possible). But given what he did this year, which was rather poor compared to his own history, how hopeful are you that he’ll regain some of that form? He just looked lost at the plate.
“I can’t say that I’m not happy, but I’m sorry for the YFs on this website. The Red Sox collapse was 1000x more pathetic, but I’m sure YFs feel just as bad this morning as us SFs felt last week.”
Honestly, 100% honest I am not upset at all. I am not sure why. Obviously I love the Yankees, but this just doesn’t hurt at all. Honestly as soon as the game ended I switched over to a DVR’d “The League” and was laughing within moments. I think a big part of it was my low expectations coming into the season. The other part of it is that I am 36 and I have been lucky enough to see playoff baseball every year but 1 since I was was in college. Heck you’d love to win every year, but let’s be honest sometimes (like this series) you get outplayed. So no, I don’t feel anywhere as bad as you guys felt last week when your very good on paper team had one of the biggest collapses in the history of pro sports. I just don’t. Normally I stop watching baseball when the Yankees lose, but I am actually excited about both Game 5’s. Call me fake, dishonest, whatever, it is what it is, no remorse here. Zero.
I’m with John. Really. And it’s not trying to hide the hurt or whatever. I was muchmore upset when Detroit won in 2006. I felt the Yankees were truly better that year. I just don’t think this Yankee team was all that good, mainly because of the pitching.
As for A-Rod, it’s a great question IBM. I didn’t particularly want him in the cleanup slot when he came back from injury this year. If his issue was a hurt thumb and he can rebound from that, great. I’m wary of writing him off for dead. At the same time, if his body is crumbling in a post-PED heap, then there’s every reason to believe he has nowhere to go but down. I just don’t know. I do know that the last two times he came up yesterday in huge situations, I just knew he was going to strike out. And I am really not looking forward to those scenarios being repeated however many times over the remaining years of his contract.
What’s all this low expectations talk I am hearing from the Yankees fans? What a lame argument to not be disappointed, I thought there was only one acceptable goal every year as a Yankees fan, to win it all. Everything else is a disappointment. If “The Boss” was still around, heads would roll!
That’s my feeling, too, horse. You just don’t know what to expect.
If it’s the PED use breaking him down, how quickly does he degenerate.? If it’s the hip, well, Mike Lowell was never the same and it was pretty much the same injury. But maybe he isn’t fully healed yet, either. If it’s his thumb, he might just need more time to heal.
It’s one big guessing game right now until he begins to play again.
I told my kid last week I was on the Rangers bandwagon.
But I’m finding myself being pulled 90 minutes north to Milwaukee, the ghost of Lou Perini and what’s left of Cunningham Hardware.
Then again, can the sports world have the Super Bowl champs and the WS champs from Wisconsin in the same year?
And the Badgers will contend for the nat’l championship in football.
A-Rod had an exceptional 2009 season and post-season post-hip issue. He may have plenty left in the tank. Or Yankee fans may be settling in for 6 years of “I can’t believe he’s still here, and making that much money.”. It’s blear to me that the last 3 years of that contract will be depressing. I hope the first three aren’t as well.
MM: you need to learn to distinguish between people on the Yankee payroll obliged to toe a certain line and fans, who have a wide variety if expectations and perspectives. For many if u’s we got more success and therefore joy out if this team um 2011 than we expected. On top of which, for me at least, the collapse in Boston was an enduring highlight of the season as well.
Wow – typos galore using the iPod touch with its auto-correct…sorry about that.
“Call me fake, dishonest, whatever, it is what it is, no remorse here. Zero.”
“I pronmise to refrain from schadenfreude comments.”
I promise not to do the same. Living up in Boston, I haven’t seen this much dysfunction from an organization since the 80s Yankees. Clubhouse in disarray? Check. Manager fired for no good reason? Check. Mad money being foolishly spent? Check, check, and check. Lucchino and Henry really are in charge, aren’t they? After Theo is gone (and with how the two above are now swinging their d1cks, why wouldn’t he be?) they better be damn sure they have this. Schadenfreude is watching this organization completely fall apart.
One question no one is asking in Boston: Where was David Ortiz this year? He got his numbers, but where was his leadership? Was his unsettled contract the core disruption?
On Crawford, people here are forgetting that he’s not a great ballplayer. Sure, he could have a few great seasons ahead, especially if he learns to use the Green Monster. But that doesn’t make him great. His end numbers, especially for a LF, will be decidedly average. His plate discipline makes that outcome very likely.
“On Crawford, people here are forgetting that he’s not a great ballplayer”
I’m not sure what you’re referring to James. I’ve said here that I expect Crawford to have much better years and I stand by that. He had the worst season of his career pretty much across the board at age 30. Unless you’re saying this is the new normal for Crawford I think you’d have to expect some substantially better seasons going forward.
To explain: if you take his first full season (2003) through to this past season, this is how his following stats ranked relative to his worst year for that stat and relative to his career average:
Games (130 – second fewest and 15 below average);
BA (.255 – worst by almost 20 points and almost 40 below average);
OBP (.289 – worst by 20 points and 44 points below average);
SLG (.405 – second worst and 36 points below average);
SB (18 – worst by 7 and 33 below average).
The guy made the all-star team four times playing for a team with one of the smallest fanbases in the country voting for him. He is 30 years old and so still in prime physical condition.
No one here has asserted he is a superstar. But if you’re telling me that his 2011 is his new normal – rather than the average of his preceding 8 seasons, I think that’s wishful thinking on your part.
The problem, IH, is he benefited from playing 81 games a year on turf. His career road stats are now .284/.324/.426. That is more than doable from most guys – like Brett Gardner. If he learns to use the Green Monster he could improve. But then his swing is ugly and the notion of going the other way would make him a very different player than he’s been his whole career.
No, I don’t expect Crawford to do this every year. His 2008 looks similar and he came back much better in 2009 and 2010. However, without playing on turf and while getting a step or two slower, I don’t expect him to be much more than an average LF going forward.
“I just don’t think this Yankee team was all that good, mainly because of the pitching.”
Totally disagree. I mean, yeah, we thought the Yanks’ pitching was going to be an issue, but after 167 games it was pretty clear that the pitching was a strength. The team ERA+ was 119. They pitched exceedingly well.
During the regular season, the Yanks were one of the two best teams in baseball if we’re measuring by run differential. The Yanks had a very strong offense, very good pitching, a very good bench. I think they were the best team in the American League and I think it’s disappointing that they lost to Detroit.
“I think they were the best team in the American League and I think it’s disappointing that they lost to Detroit.”
But not by more than a game or two, right? It’s not like they were clearly above the rest of the league, Phillies-style. And Detroit won their division with widest margin in all of baseball.
I’ll say I’m disappointed, but not shocked. The pitching held up (until Nova didn’t). The bats are looking older though. They could have really used Montero in this series. I’m most disappointed by that. He’ll be a mid-lineup bat all of next year and we’ll look back and wonder what if, especially with how much Martin was allowed to hit with games on the line.
I’m not surprised they lost in a 5-game series to a good team. I tend to subscribe to the idea that short series are crapshoots, which is what made the Yanks’ run in the 90’s special and also a result of some good luck. But I also think they were a better team than Detroit and probably by more than the two games that their records indicated. Anyway, it’s academic at this point, but I’m not going to pretend that I didn’t think they should have come out of the AL as the league champs.
Good point re: the turf and crawford. His career stats on grass pretty much equal exactly the “away” stats you cite. Not horrible. But also nowhere near the value at which his salary is pegged for the next 6 years or whatever.
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