Yanks Acquire Eric Hinske

Id rather have Hinske than Duncan, especially with the LF porch and his ability to play both IF and OF….also, it seems like DeRosa’s price tag was more than Hinske so hard to compare the two

Hit Dog, what’s been so bad about the Johnny Damon signing? He’s been very good with the Yanks.

Who could the Yanks have traded for that would have gotten Bay. The reason why the Pirates went for the deal is that they were getting Andy LaRoche, who was a bigger prospect than anyone in the Yanks system except for maybe Austin Jackson and Jesus Montero. It’s a false comparison that doesn’t acknowledge the reality at the time.

Hit Dog, I’ll move on. There a millions of moves that even great teams make that fall under the category of a nice depth move. This seems a silly line of reasoning.

Andy LaRoche is good for a young player. check out the stats.

For the Pirates, sure Andy LaRoche is a fine 3B (with a career .643 OPS in over 600 plate appearances). But then, for the Pirates, Jeff Karstens and Ross Ohlendorf are fine starting pitchers.

“Somehow I think they could have gotten Bay with the same package it took to get Nady and Marte. Tabata was prized and the pitchers are back of the rotation material (for the Pirates). Question is: Did Cashman even try?”
Well if you’re going to argue this based on an entirely imagined scenario then I don’t know what to do. It doesn’t matter much how good LaRoche/Moss et al are right now. LaRoche, at the time, was a top prospect who the Pirates liked very much. He was rated higher than anyone in the Tabata deal by publications such as BA, BP and probably the Pirates organization.

“The Hinske move is a solid one. Even if all it does is get Berroa off the 25 man roster, it’s worth it.”
I thought Berroa was already toast Mark, no? (not being argumentative, just asking…)

“Mark, it’s hard to take you seriously if you think Berroa’s still on the 25-man. But, because of him, it’s hard for me to take anything Cashman does seriously.”
I’m not sure I understand the ultra-dorky put-down tone of this comment. You’re right! Berroa is off the team. I’m still going to take Mark seriously even if he made a little mistake.

Tabata was almost suspended by the Yanks for leaving a game early that season. To say that he had lost his luster as a prospect in the Yanks organization is an understatement. The funny thing is that I was never a huge fan of the Nady/Marte trade, but I’m not going to concede the point that the Yanks could have gotten Bay with that package. It’s just not true. I guess I’ll move on. I’m not sure how interesting this debate can get. Seems highly speculative on both ends.

I love this move simply because of the funny over reaction I’m reading from Yankee fans on other sites.

Rob: My mistake – I meant Ransom, not Berroa. And Hinske may only be a so-so player, but he’s a big improvement over Ransom, with his poor defense nicely complementing his 52 OPS+.
And Tabata was #31 on the 2008 prospect list. But at the time of the trade, his AA-Trenton numbers were regressing and he was considered problematic in the clubhouse, having been disciplined several times during the year by the team. His stock had fallen quite a bit.

Ugly thread for a decent pick up.

A few years ago, the Red Sox acquired and the moved the best prospect in all of baseball.
You never know with these “rankings” at all.

Rob: Where are you getting that UZR number for Hinske? Fangraphs says his career UZR/150 at 3B is -5.0 (http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1305&position=3B#fielding), which isn’t really that big of a deal. It was also a positive last year with the Rays and the year before with the Sox, so it’s not like it’s trending down.
And it’s a dumb move to send Pena down rather than Ransom, who is not even close to being as even replacement level. At least Pena is a suitable defensive replacement and can play a couple positions effectively.

Rob: And no offense taken. And going back to your other points upthread: yeah, the Nady deal is now, if not necessarily a bad one, one that didn’t work out. But the reason it didn’t work out was due to injuries to Marte and Nady. Unfortunate, but I’m not sure Cashman can be blamed wholly.
I have some of the same problems with Cashman as you do: he’s done a poor job of filling out the back 7 or 8 roster spots. It’s absolutely true that guys like Berrora, Ransom, and Tomko have ZERO business being on the yanks’ 25 man roster. Where we differ is that I think moves like this Hinske one improve that situation. Now if only he and/or Girardi had the really very common sense to send down Ransom instead of Pena, we’d be a win or so better than we were yesterday.

Scratch that last comment – they’re both UZR. The UZR/150 is prorating his UZR over the course of a full season. That -13.4 number you cited though is over the course of his whole career, and is more indicative of how long he has played than his actual value over the course of the a season.

Glad you didn’t take it personally, Mark. I was feeling a little punchy when I wrote. Never a good place to start.
With Marte and Nady there was so little there to begin with, it’s hard for me to give him any credit. I’d just shrug my shoulders if Bay hadn’t been moved for less. The problem for Cashman was that Bay was lefthanded and couldn’t play right field. Instead, he goes into 2009 with not one guy that can legitimately slug .500.
I absolutely agree about the Yankees roster. The problem is Hinske should be the 25th man, not the first guy off the bench. He doesn’t hit enough and his glove is awful. If you’re going to give him a shot, why not give Duncan a month in the majors to see if he can help them sit Matsui or Damon? Hinske doesn’t help there because Damon and Matsui are both better hitters – against lefties and righties.

No worries, Nick. Just remember: You’re entitled to your opinion. You’re not entitled to your own facts :)
Agree to disagree.

The always thoughtful Rob Neyer’s take:
“You might wonder what the Yankees would want with a guy like Hinske, who’s not having a good season and is nobody’s idea of a future star. Well, the Yankees need a guy like Hinske. He can play four positions passably enough and he can still hit enough to give you a chance, particularly against right-handed pitching. Look at the Yankees’ bench, pre-Hinske … there is one extra outfielder: either Melky Cabrera or Brett Gardner (whichever of them isn’t playing center field in a given game).
Are there better fifth outfielders than Hinske? Maybe. But very few of them can also play first base and third base. Considering Hinske’s negligible salary and the two “prospects” the Yankees sent to Pittsburgh — neither was ranked among the Yankees’ 30 best prospects before this season — this might qualify as the smartest deal of the month.”

I won’t hurt NY to have him on the bench in any way.
I disagree. If the intent is to rest Matsui or Damon with Hinske, that’s a mistake because the latter is a worse hitter than both. If the intent is to rest A-Rod with Hinske, that’s a mistake because he’s a butcher with the glove there and his bat doesn’t make up for it. Worst of all, they have guys in the system who are just as good if not better. Shelley Duncan could be properly used to rest Matsui and Damon against LHP and as a small upgrade in offense. Pena won’t do much with the bat, but he’ll help with his glove.

I’m sure he made a big push for DeRosa
Really? Cause he had two shots at him and plenty of pitching to land him.

Really? Cause he had two shots at him and plenty of pitching to land him.
Rob, you’re saying that Cashman didn’t even try. You have no idea what happened, what trade scenarios were tossed around, and what Cashman and the Yankees organization was willing to part with, nor what Cleveland was asking for.
I hate Cashman and can’t wait to see him finally fired, but you’re making a ton of assumptions here based on nothing but speculation.

you can’t dismiss the fact that the yanks probably overvalued marte when dealing for nady. the yanks were happy to deal tabata away as he had started to live up to his “the next manny” billing, minus the ability to hit. karstens, mccutchen, and ohlendorf all had run their course of usefulness in the yanks organization and had reached the ripe age of 26. marte came with a cheap team option (declined) for 2009, while nady would become a FA at the end of ’08. at the time, it felt like a quick band-aid for a struggling melky, overworked bullpen void of a legit lefty, and a yankee team looking up at two teams ahead of them in the division. i’m not sure it was a case of dealing prized prospects to better the yanks for the future.
with the bay deal, the sox gave up a former first rounder in hansen, a solid bat with tons of minor league accolades in moss, and a player the pirates actively sought in laroche.
not sure those two deals have alot of similarities. the sox deal that sticks in my craw was the one made for gagne. murphys legit and time will tell on beltre. throw in gabbard, and the sox got fleeced.

Seriously folks? Lugo just went 2 for 2 and there’s no gamer??

Hinske. Yawn.

There you go ignoring the Pirates wants/needs in place of your own.
Except you and I are equal on that footing. You have no ideas, any more than I do, what their wants and needs were. What if they prized Ohlendorf (who shut out the Cubs tonight) or Tabata? What if they were willing to move Nady for LaRoche? You just don’t know either.
The fact is you have no idea what the context is. It’s not that I’m ignoring it and you’re not. It’s that it’s an unknowable. What are your sources for saying they coveted LaRoche? And how does that compare for getting to slots in their rotation filled?
Instead, we’re left with verifiable results. And the Pirates got more from the Yankees, for less in return, than they did in the Manny trade. That by itself is pretty amazing considering the clear differences between Bay and Nady and Marte.

You have no ideas, any more than I do, what their wants and needs were.
Except we do know what their wants and needs were, because they traded for Andy LaRoche. Their actions are what speak volumes here. They had no 3B depth in their minor league system, and were using Bautista at third. At the time LaRoche was highly rated, and I remember the word “coveted” specifically being used.
In 2007 Andy LaRoche was ranked the 19th best prospect in all of baseball (the third highest 3B, behind Alex Gordon and Evan Longoria). The following year he was ranked 31st, which is still phenomenal. The Pirates needed a third baseman; the day after LaRoche joined the team they moved Bautista to a utility role. That alone shows that they valued him highly, and needed him. From an article in the Post Gazette: “”Andy LaRoche was one of the best prospects in all of baseball, and we’re thrilled to get him,” Huntington said.” What more convincing do you need?
Look, you started this by speculating that Cashman could have gotten Jason Bay for what he gave up in the Nady trade. Like I said before, this ignores all of the context involved, and both the explicit evidence (the Pirates needed a 3B) and implicit evidence (the Pirates coveted him).

Except we do know what their wants and needs were, because they traded for Ross Ohlendorf, Jeff Karstens, and Jose Tabata.
See how well that works in judging “context”? The Pirates may have had a need for a 3B. But they also had a need for two starting pitchers. And Tabata has been ranked right there with LaRoche but with significantly more upside. By the time of the trade the luster had worn off both. What was Huntington going to say? “We just acquired a dog.”?
You’re right. I did start “this” by noting they could have gotten Bay with that same package. I stand by that. The only fact today is the Pirates got more from the Yankees for less. They could easily have used Nady and/or Marte to get a 3B. They practically gave Bay away.
I do expect major league caliber players though, who can make a couple spot spot starts or come out of the ‘pen and not kill you. Ransom, Berroa, Tomko and co. aren’t even close to being even that good. They’re complete black holes.
Exactly. I’ll also take a younger player with upside. Ransom is 33. Berroa is 42.
Hinske sucks. He’s played all of 8 games at 3rd in the last three years. Putting him out there is a step down in defense from A-Rod and a step down in offense from Matsui (if they’re DHing A-Rod). DeRosa they could have played against LHP.

And Tabata has been ranked right there with LaRoche but with significantly more upside.
I’m sorry, but can you cite these sources? Tabata is young and has above-average speed, but right now that’s all he’s got going for him: he has a career .759 OPS in the minors. You’re very quick to dismiss LaRoche’s upside, even though he has been worlds better than Tabata in the minors. Sure one was 24 at the time and the other was 19, but then again you’re the one making the comparisons, not me.
Again, the Pirate’s needs are all that mattered. You’re making far too many assumptions of what happened to have any substance behind calling Cashman a failure for not getting Bay instead of Nady.

Rob, I was specifically talking about how you claimed that Tabata had a much higher upside.
But to assume you know more or are being more fair, and I less, is a fiction based on more assumptions than anything I’m relying on.
That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that Cashman, and the Pirates organization, know more than you know–which they do. Based on the best evidence we have (the trades themselves and their immediate needs) it’s obvious that the Pirates really wanted a 3B. They paid more for him because, we can assume, he had more value to them. The only thing I’m assuming is that the Pirates wanted LaRoche more than they wanted Tabata, which the evidence suggests. You’re ignoring that evidence and claiming that Cashman should have gotten Bay because, in your subjective opinion, Tabata was worth more and had a higher upside than LaRoche.

You’re ignoring that evidence and claiming that Cashman should have gotten Bay because, in your subjective opinion, Tabata was worth more and had a higher upside than LaRoche.
Read the thread again. I’ve been talking about the packages. And where I highlight LaRoche vs. Tabata it was to show they just weren’t far apart in prospect status.
As far as what the Pirates thought, that’s irrelevant because it’s unknowable.
I’m saying that there are thousands of possibilities and unknowns.
And they’re all irrelevant for the same reason.
My “definitive” statement (more my opinion, but whatever) is defensible among the lines I’ve argued. The Pirates got a better deal from the Yankees and gave up less. I have a good idea of why Cashman wasn’t focused on Bay (lefty bat in LF – already had two of those). But that doesn’t mean there wasn’t an opportunity to upgrade. There clearly was. And at the price already being discussed for Nady and Marte.
I don’t expect to see you ever arguing trades here. These two trades are as close as these things get. So if those unknowables are too much for you, then every trade will be.

And you have yet to cite how Tabata had a higher ceiling than LaRoche, or what evidence you have to suggest Cashman didn’t even kick the tires on Jason Bay or Mark DeRosa.

Last off-season the Rockies traded Matt Holliday to the Athletics. Why didn’t Cashman make that trade? He had the pieces! Obviously he didn’t even try.
At the trade deadline last year the Dodgers acquired Manny Ramirez. Why didn’t Cashman make that trade? He had the pieces! Obviously he didn’t even try.
Remember when Hanley Ramirez was traded to Florida? The Yankees should have totally gotten him. Why didn’t Cashman make that trade? He had the pieces! Obviously he didn’t even try.
See how much fun this is? Never change, Rob!

Thanks Doug, I didn’t know that. I’m sure there are hundreds of minor things like that that all add up to every decision a GM must make, and weonly see a glimpse of that.