Categories
Games

All-Star Gamer Thread

How many people think it is a rotten idea that the league that wins this game gets an advantage in the Series? Raise your hands.  The two of you that kept your hands down should go watch "Twilight: The Eclipse" together tonight.  There should be good seats available.

Congratulations to David Ortiz for putting an exclamation point on his recent notifications that the rumors of demise have been exaggerated.  Here's hoping the Junior Circuit serves up another can of whoop-ass to the AAAA squad.  Comment away.

81 replies on “All-Star Gamer Thread”

Except now the claims of Ortiz’s “comeback” have been greatly exaggerated. First the stats:
vs. RHP: .292/.423/.669 = 1.092 (222 PA)
vs. LHP: .192/.277/.301 = .578 (83 PA)
Now, the reality: Platoon DH’s just don’t have many jobs available to them. Then consider both his contract situation, his recent words, and the recent trends in contracts. There is no chance the Sox pay a platoon DH $12.5 million next year. And, the further problem is he says he wants an extension. But the reality is DHs, even ones who can hit all pitchers, are lucky to be getting $7 million/year. All signs point to this being his last year in Beantown.
It’s a fine way for him to go out. But this ain’t the same beast we grew to loathe in 2004. It also helps that the Yanks have one of the best southpaws as their ace. The Rays
too. This David Ortiz is not a threat to either team and those are the only teams that matter this year for the Sox.
Oh, and Hudson, Big Stein has his place in Cooperstown – warts and all. Choke on that.

I think that Ortiz realizes he is not going to get that level of money he already signed for, especially after what other “career DH” guys signed for last year. I think Ortiz may actually value the stability of staying with the Red Sox.

Ortiz said yesterday he wants an extension. Now maybe he’s willing to take a drastic paycut to take $14M over 2 years, but I’ll believe it when I see it. After all this Papi is back stuff, he’s going to be cool with a huge pay cut?

Who knows, some people may be as their career winds down. Others are not. It may not be as entertaining in the off season as “the decision” was.
But the market is the market. I think it is wise for some of these guys to take notice on how much other players have been forced to sign for and how others have not been able to sign.

> Except now the claims of Ortiz’s “comeback” have been greatly exaggerated
I didn’t say greatly. You did. He’s a 146 OPS+ on the YEAR, after everyone wrote him off as dead prior to May due to his horrid start. Seems he still has some power, despite desperate prognostication.
Again, congratulations to David Ortiz and his recent performance, though some may find it impossible to let that slide by.

Logically you’re right of course. But how many players have done what you’re suggesting? Even a home town discount usually amounts to maybe one less year or a million or two less on the AAV. How many players have accepted a 50% cut? That would bring him in line with the market.

His demise hasn’t been exaggerated if he’s truly a platoon DH going forward. The stats suggest he is. There aren’t many of those job available. Ergo, his demise is still very real even if it isn’t an impeding DFA any longer. It’s the very real possibility of no real job.
Sorry, I have trouble letting facts slide by. Other Rob is engaging me on those facts. The market doesn’t value what current Papi can do. If he thinks it does, he has a rude awakening awaiting him.

The NFL has a way of dealing with the signing of players specifically into a certain defensive scheme. Knowing that a player is not going to get the stats that drove their new contract to what it was.
Looking at some of the players who are due to for contracts in baseball I wonder if that occurs also. Papi, Giambi and a few other power left side hitters are forced to deal with the shift. Not having another bat behind you can effect your stats.
Think of some of the other players who have been successful 3-4 hitters and usually there is a tandem. Papi has not had that tandem in two years. Youk is a good hitter, but definately not a Manny (power wise). Some people will refute that with OPS and some other stats, but I look at it with purely a HR number. I think some of the stats start to actually confuse the situation.
Papi is not the hitter he was a few years ago. With that alone he should understand he is not going to get the money he did on his last contract (likewise the economy had not tanked). So with that and the market history the last two years he should expect a smaller market value for himself.
As for being a platoon DH? Not so sure, I can understand why some people say that (and he does sit against specific lefties). But to sit him every few days and does seem to prevent another slump from happening.
Remember, Texiera had a horrible start also and was being paid more money (not making a swipe here, or being nasty about it) and little was made by most media outlets. Some players are slow starters.
If for whatever reason, Ortiz managed to finish the season with 35 HR and 100+ RBI’s…would that be considered a down year?

Wow, RobYF is back and shitting up even more threads. The majority of pitchers (75%) are righties, but Ortiz sucks against the other 25%, so that clearly negates his 146 OPS+.
Why was Girardi sticking with the lefties? Things worked out thanks to errors, but lefties were 0-39 against Kuo this season.

“He’s second in the game OPS+ as DH this year.”
Who’s going to bet $10M+ on that going forward? When Papi doesn’t get offers like that – and he wants multiple years – how is he going to respond? Giambi went one way. Sheffield went another. Matsui took a one year deal.
“As for being a platoon DH?”
Look at those splits above. Most middle infielders would do better.
“If for whatever reason, Ortiz managed to finish the season with 35 HR and 100+ RBI’s…would that be considered a down year?”
That would be a fine year. Matsui was not that far off that in 2010 AND was the Serious MVP. The market still showed his value.

Buck and McCarver both saying that Lester has really developed into a front of the line starter this year with Beckett out. I guess they weren’t watching in 2008/2009.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever Joe. You really fucked it up. He could have tied the game??? No idea what the fuck that was about??? WHY???

> Who’s going to bet $10M+ on that going forward? When Papi doesn’t get offers like that.. how is he going to respond?
So depending on when/if Papi does or doesn’t get offered a contract that he does or doesn’t sign for an amount of money that is or isn’t in line with what has happened with the money for DH’s moving from the Yankees in the last couple years, we will know.. um.. something.
Anyway, congrats Papi.

Hopefully he doesn’t fuck up the game on Friday night too…hitting the sack so I can catch a plane to the Big Apple in the morning!!!

I know ARod only has a 124 OPS+ this season (compared to Kinsler’s 122), but he’s fucking ARod. You can’t let your team lose with him on the bench.
Maybe Girardi knows the Red Sox are going to the World Series this year and he’s sabotaging their chances.

> Anyway, congrats Papi.
As we saw last night, the man has exactly no skills besides being able to hit RHP. Awful. And you think there’s something to be celebrated? At least Matsui and Vlad can “play” the OF on occasion.
You said:
“Congratulations to David Ortiz for putting an exclamation point on his recent notifications that the rumors of demise have been exaggerated. ”
Except he’ll be looking at no job this off-season, most especially because he thinks he deserves an extension. That’s the exclamation point! There are delusions, and then there are delusions of grandeur. Thinking the Sox will pick up his option is a delusion. Thinking he’ll get more than one year, is a delusion of grandeur (“I’m Papi!”). His “demise” is real if he can’t find a job. Every single data point of recent history suggests he won’t – not at his asking price. But, but, but 146 OPS+! Yup, Matsui, the best DH in all of baseball in 2009, screams hello.
Okay, you win. Ortiz is back! Until he’s soon gone…

Only a complete fucking moron could come here and talk about how horrible of year and player Ortiz is with the stats he has – and that’s with a horrible April.
OH my god…left hand pitching gets out left handed hitting. What a concept! Everyone needs a platoon!!!

Rob YF leaves out that 83 AB is statistically irrelevant, so his argument is flawed.
I do believe he’ll get a renogtiated 2 or 3 year deal for about the same as the option would have cost for one year.

How does the entire Rays team fare against LHP? Maybe we should platoon them all?
I wonder if I can find any other hitters that aren’t doing so hot against same side pitching? hmmm.

Anatomy of a RobYF post:
1. Make a “bait” post to lure people in to responding to your trolling. (ex: “Except now the claims of Ortiz’s “comeback” have been greatly exaggerated.”)
2. Back up claim by referencing a statistically irrelevant split that nobody really cares about but you. (ex: “he sucks against LHP!”)
3. Shift the goalposts to talk about a secondary argument. (ex: “There is no chance the Sox pay a platoon DH $12.5 million next year. “)
4. When people respond to the first “bait” post, continue repeating the same secondary argument over and over, even though nobody is arguing against that point. (ex: “Who’s going to bet $10M+ on that going forward? When Papi doesn’t get offers like that – and he wants multiple years – how is he going to respond?”)
5. Throw on a sarcastic comment and/or personal attack at the end to remind everyone why nobody takes you seriously. (ex: “But, but, but 146 OPS+! Yup, Matsui, the best DH in all of baseball in 2009, screams hello. Okay, you win. Ortiz is back! Until he’s soon gone… “)
6. When people start ignoring you completely, disappear for several months and then reemerge with a new name, and repeat the process.

Surprisingly, there is a shit load of LH hitters that hit way less with a lefty on the bump. Holy cow. I would have never guessed that. Really. Also, in other news, Some really good lefties are even better against LH hitters, and it’s raining in Hartford.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
The Brewers have asked for David Price from Tampa in exchange for Hart. hahaha.
Maybe Prince doesn’t get moved at all.

i wouldn’t be surprised to see papi right back with the sox next season, depending of course on how he finishes the season, and whether the sox think they have a better option…he’s still with the team partly because they didn’t and he would have been difficult to move at the time he wasn’t performing…sure they might decline the option and try to renegotiate a more favorable deal, but why not?…the guy can still be a dangerous hitter and makes a valuable contribution to the sox offense…i try not to get too hung up on that righty/lefty stuff, especially if the guy’s overall contribution is there…as brad points out, what are you going to do platoon for every player?…granderson has a history of struggling against lefties, but i want him in there every day…if theo’s true to form he’ll devalue the pure counting stats, hr’s and rbi, to which oritz can counter with his lofty ops and ops+…further if the sox can grab a guy like fielder to insert behind ortiz, that makes the sox and ortiz even scarier…

very true, DC.
I think a lot of the Sox’ decisions will be made a lot easier if they pick up another hitter to hit with him. If they can possibly move for another bat, it’s a different story altogether. Especially a RH one.

line-up “protection” has proved to be not so true (exception of course, if it’s not a major league talent hitting behind you – like Niuman). The sox offense is just fine – they need to get some relief help, and figure out what’s going on with Lackey.

dw, we’re not calling it protection, the way you’re thinking about it.
I don’t think Papi needs to be protected, but adding another bat behind Papi, who is equally as good or better, ensures that papi gets more pitches to hit. For example, do you think Maddon intentionally walks Ortiz four times last week if there is a more capable hitter to move into that spot once Youk was out?

you have a point dw, lineup protection is largely in one’s head, but the opportunity to grab a premier 1b, who is a proven masher and move youk back to third, may be of interest to the sox…if it makes ortiz more comfortable, or secure, or confident, whatever, then that’s a nice byproduct…you can’t argue with the notion that it makes a strong lineup even stronger, and you can’t really believe that beltre was a long term solution at 3rd [they can buy him out for $1m if he has under 575 pa’s]…if they can acquire fielder it’s doubtful beltre would have enough ab’s for his option to kick in…i do agree that you can never have enough [dependable] pitching, and i’m guessing the sox, like the yanks, look at that too…in fact, i see the yanks making a serious run at lee…with pettitte only in for one year at a time you never know when he’ll call it quits, and we may not resign vazquez…i hope not, but getting lee may push hughes back to the bullpen, especially if joba continues to stink up the place as the 8th inning guy…we sure have an interesting way of screwing up young pitchers in the name of ‘protecting’ them…

I agree with dc, I’m 100% in favor of acquiring a great 1B and moving Youk to third. That absolutely helps Papi, especially given Brad’s point about the IBB’s lately.
It’s tough to implement that plan while Beltre is hitting so well though. His 136 OPS+ is far above his norm, so trading him while his value is high might be a good idea.

I guess we’ll talk about next year during hot stove (although right now I could see a move with Ellsbury to KC for DeJesus) :)
I suppose it comes down to depth – Youk is an elite hitter, and when injured Tito can’t arrange the line-up mid-game so it’s a bit unfair to point at that one game.

um…i see the smiley, but i can’t resist pointing out that ellsbury is of no trade value until somebody figures out what’s up with him…

I don’t buy into that, dc. Yeah, he’s hurt, but everyone knows that it’s just a rib, and everyone knows they’d be getting him lower than when he had a great ba and 70 stolen bases last year.
I don’t think Ellsbury’s health is an issue for any team looking to get him, but I also don’t want anything to do with moving him for Dejesus.
Ellsbury has to be one of the chips for a bigger piece…not the main chip in a dejesus trade.

Agree 100% with Brad. Ellsbury still has enormous potential, and a minor rib injury (which isn’t indicative of any long-term problem) isn’t a good enough reason to trade him for a CF that doesn’t offer you a whole lot more.

“Ellsbury still has enormous potential”
I don’t see it. His speed makes up for a lack of instincts in the outfield, and he’s a middle of the road OBP guy without allot of power.

A league-average OPS+, combined with his speed, adds an entirely new dimension to the lineup that I feel is extremely valuable. And with his speed the defensive instincts can be learned and improved on.

maybe his speed already shows up in the OPS (beating out infield hits, singles to doubles, etc). so his speed isn’t independent of the OPS.
Can instincts really be improved on in the majors? I mean by the time a player is in the show, he’s what he is.

Enormous potential to steal bases and a decent bat. That’s about it. I can’t in one breath discriminate against the mediocre talents of Brett Gardner and praise those of Jacoby Ellsbury. They’re the same person. Infield hits. Doubles that are normal singles for normal-speeded (is that a word?) people. Not a great eye. No power.
Gardner has great trade value as well. Jacoby is not the future of this OF, but he is however, a good baseball player with a ton of speed that covers up his shortcomings.
Plus, fuck him.

I can see the sox trading Ellsbury before the deadline for a proven talent. After all crawford and Werth are both FA in the winter, need to make room!

Krueg, welcome to NY big guy! This place will never be the same…
Sorry but I’m going to miss you at tomorrow night’s game — resale prices shot up for this weekend’s games given recent events and so I decided to splurge for the Saturday game/Old Timer’s Day, where I’m expecting more of a ceremony. If you decide to go to that game (or to Sun), let me know. I’ll be at both but not Fri. Either way, have a blast!

What I love about listening to Boston sports radio is really understanding how many homers run rampant here. Atheose, when was the last time you said an honest thing about your team? Hell, 98.5 was killing Ortiz all day for his “baserunning” even as you said there was nothing he could have done. Not only was it obvious that ball was going to fall, Marlon Byrd did a frickin’ pirouette before he threw to second. Seriously though, when’s the last time you criticized any Sock living or dead?
dw –
Not enough PAs? How about:
2008 –
vs. RHP: .279/.389/.532 = .921 (370 PA)
vs. LHP: .221/.308/.433 = .741 (121 PA)
Or :
2009 –
vs. RHP: .250/.346/.481 = .828 (439 PA)
vs. LHP: .212/.298/.418 = .716 (188 PA)
The plain fact is: Ortiz is finished as a full-time player. The writing isn’t just on the wall. It’s spray painted on the Green Monstah. Besides his base running, talki radio is killing him for “peacocking” after the homerun show and laughing at his expectation of an extension. Matsui is exactly the right comparison, except he hit all pitchers last year and once had some defensive value.
If I really wanted to troll, I’d point out the widely discussed rumors that he’s juicing again. But I don’t believe that. Instead, I think he’s cheating on the fastball. He can turn around on less than stellar ones if he starts his swing early. But he loses that advantage against southpaws because he sees less of the ball from them and he can’t do anything big with off-speed stuff.
Sure, enough that’s exactly what seems to be happening. The fastball
is the only thing he’s doing anything with:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=745&position=DH#pitchvalues
And his HRs off of the fastball are the highest they’ve been since 2006:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=745&position=DH#battedball
But he’s also seeing more fastballs since 2004:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=745&position=DH#pitchtype
That’s not surprising. Earlier in the season when I saw him from third base, he was sloooow against Hughes’ good but not great heater. The report got out on his slow bat enough that it became the topic here.
Now teams will adjust. He’s going to get a steadier stream of off-speed stuff. Watch the games, not the boxscores. And protection will do Papi as much good as it did my parents.
Granderson needs to sit against LHP until he starts creaming RHP. He needs to get his timing right.
“A league-average OPS+, combined with his speed, adds an entirely new dimension to the lineup that I feel is extremely valuable. And with his speed the defensive instincts can be learned and improved on.”
Seriously man, when’s the last time you said anything negative about any Red Sock – living or dead?
“Gardner has great trade value as well. Jacoby is not the future of this OF, but he is however, a good baseball player with a ton of speed that covers up his shortcomings. ”
And he plays the game the right way!
Seriously, I can’t see how Ellsbury was ever considered the better player. Their stats in the same leagues at the same times were almost identical. Perfect example where prospect guys just pull crap out of their arses. What I find really fascinating is both have learned to take advantage of their home parks – Gardner especially so. He shown he can turn on inside heat. Interesting point via Neyer’s links: Gardner has the best rate in all of baseball at making contact with pitches in the zone. Combined with his excellent eye, that a recipe for success as long as he has his legs.

Guys –
I’ll be at the Sunday game! Let me buy you a beer for being a pain in your arses! And kreug, we can meet up with Jack Herr. IH you’re invited too of course but for some reason I don’t think you and Jack would get along.

Again. Holy Shit. Lefties are tough on lefties. I wonder if there are any other full time players that have this problem? Do managers know about this?
“IH you’re invited too of course but for some reason I don’t think you and Jack would get along.
It’s funny that you think IH would have a problem getting along with a third party, when he’s ridden you like a horse in your past for you outlandish stance and bullshit rhetoric. However, I’d love to have a beer with you.

Seriously, I can’t see how Ellsbury was ever considered the better player.
Because when Jacoby was stealing 70 bases a year and hitting well, Gardner was having a problem beating out Melky Cabrerra for a roster spot. Also, how has either taken advantage of their parks? Neither has HR numbers to the short parts of either park, and neither have any doubles that wouldn’t be doubles for them anywhere else? Albeit most of their doubles are normal guys singles, but I don’t think I’m following your logic at all. Jacoby doens’t hit the wall, and Gardner doesn’t use the short porch.
“Gardner has the best rate in all of baseball at making contact with pitches in the zone”
Where is this stat? Not that I don’t believe it, but I think it has something to do with the half billion dollars in talent hitting behind him. That’s all he gets are strikes.

Besides, while I know you absolutely love to use small samples sizes, let’s wait on this argument until either has a year or two of consistent service. One of them has been hurt all year, and the other couldn’t crack the lineup last year enough to matter. Let’s see how it plays out after a little while.

Not only was it obvious that ball was going to fall
This is a flame throwing bullshit lie, from a flame throwing bullshit liar. Nobody in the park, booth, or even on the field knew that ball wasn’t going to be caught. It bounced directly in front of Byrd, who was charging hard, and less than a 50′ throw to second on the bounce. Ortiz had more than half way to go to second.
The bigger gaffe here is that Girardi didn’t put a runner in when everyone in the world knew he should have.

Other players who hit over 100 points lower against LHP:
Josh Hamilton
Carl Crawford
… There are literally dozens of big hitters that do this..should all these guys be platooned as well for their respective struggles?

same old talking points on ortiz from rob. dead horse. maybe a fresh horse will help. try this….
the rumors of joba’s trade value have been greatly exaggerated. (bonus points for use of the term “rulz”)
as for the ellsbury situation, i just hope the sox don’t sign any long term CF’ers. i have a prospect boner for reymond fuentes.

“as for the ellsbury situation, i just hope the sox don’t sign any long term CF’ers. i have a prospect boner for reymond fuentes. ”
I forgot about him, although he’s in single A and not exactly lighting it up there with a .497 OPS…
Kalish however – he is close.

HAHAHA>
Tonight’s Red Sox lineup is as follows:
SS – Scutaro
2B – Patterson
3B – Hall
1B – Youk
C – Cash
P – Wakefield
LF – Nava
CF – Cameron
RF – Drew
I hate that lineup more than any lineup I’ve seen in years. That is not even a MLB lineup. Holy Cow these injuries are out of control.

LOL RobYF, even Krueg thought Ortiz was screwed either way on that play. My first impression was that the ball was going to be caught, the TV broadcasters had the same impression, and everyone I was watching the game with (two of whom HATE Ortiz).
And regarding whether or not I’m a homer: most YF’s on here will tell you I’m definitely not. I love the Red Sox, but I’m rarely blind to the problems with a player or the team in general. You’ve been around long enough (albeit with half a dozen different names!) to know that. And the fact that you’re referencing radio station callers to back up your opinion is hilarious.

Also, if you want to call me a homer then the burden of proof is on you to cite several examples where I make homerish statements. You’re trolling hard though, so that won’t happen.

Leave a Reply

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.