Bernie: One More Time

Last night’s late news brought a story that is sure to warm the hearts of some Yanks fans (including this one) and divide the sabermetric community: the Bombers have offered arbitration to Bernie Williams, and have apparently reached an agreement with him as to his role on the team next year, assuming the two sides can come to financial terms. That role being Ruben Sierra’s pinch-hitting and occasional DH slot. Is it worth bringing Bernie back in this limited capacity? Some analysts will note his age, his declining production and speed, and his poor defense, and lament the allocation of funds and roster space toward a ballplayer clearly comng to his career end. Our theory: a switch-hitter with periodic power, solid on-base skills, a storied history, and a mastery of light jazz is a good fit for the Yanks bench, at least for one year and at the right price. It does mean Ruben Sierra will not be back–a fact that will illicit joy among saberites, though we tip our cap to Ruben for time well served, if not always games well played. Also offered arbitration (and their ML status in serious doubt): Al Leitter and Ramiro Mendoza.

We also tip our cap in the direction of John Olerud, who has announced his retirement. Yanks and Sox fans can agree that it was a pleasure to watch him play in their respecctive unis. Yanks fans can only wonder what might have been if not for his injury in the 2004 ALCS. But Sox fans probably have a different take on that.

106 comments… add one
  • The Red Sox just traded Edgah (Renteria) for 3rd base prospect Andy Marte, which begs the question: Just who the hell is driving this thing?

    mattymatty December 8, 2005, 11:48 am
  • Andy Marte was Baseball Prospectus’s #1 or #2 prospect last year. They rated him on the level of Felix Hernandez. Again, this strikes me as a great trade for the Sox, but it also probably means another trade is happening soon. My prediction: Adam Dunn is on the way to the Sox. Just a gut feeling.

    Nick December 8, 2005, 12:07 pm
  • red sox fans, I know I’m an angry Yanks fan, but don’t these trades strike you as clearly one-sided? Your team is making out like highway robbers.

    Nick December 8, 2005, 12:18 pm
  • Its odd to see them dismantling the entire team like this. Marte seems to be a very good prospect and I’m quite happy to get him. However, my fear is that [insert GMs name here] will turn around and trade this guy for a middle-aged mediocrity like Lugo.
    I don’t mind getting rid of Renteria, I just hope that theres some sort of plan in mind here. SF: what do you think?

    mattymatty December 8, 2005, 12:30 pm
  • mattymatty, if Lugo is a middle-aged mediocrity then Renteria was as well. They’re the same age and, for the last three years, have been the same player stats wise. Plus, Lugo is a lot cheaper.

    Nick December 8, 2005, 12:37 pm
  • Well, ESPN is predicting that Marte will go to the Devil Rays for Lugo. Is it me or are the Devil Rays building something that could be *really* good in about four years?
    I have to say, though, that trading Edgah now shows that getting ridding of Hanley a month ago made no sense. How/why can you go from 2 shortstops to none in the space of a few weeks? Is Lugo better than either of those two? Confusing. Someone, please enlighten me.

    Sam December 8, 2005, 12:39 pm
  • I agree Nick. Renteria is an over-priced middle aged medocrity. But how does it make sense to deal one for the other? It doesn’t seem worth the effort. At least Renteria has a bit more upside (his 2003 season). If the object is to save money, then ok, but why’d they sign Renteria in the first place then?

    mattymatty December 8, 2005, 12:40 pm
  • disagrees that the Sox are going to flip Marte to Tampa:
    “The Red Sox are now expected to sign a free-agent shortstop to replace Renteria rather than pursue a trade with the Devil Rays for Julio Lugo, as had been rumored the last couple of days here at the winter meetings. Some likely candidates to fill Renteria’s shoes include Alex Gonzalez, Royce Clayton, and Pokey Reese.”
    The Boston Herald’s Michael Silverman agrees:
    “[Marte] will probably begin the year in Triple A, and the Red Sox expect to try him out at first base there.”
    Doesn’t sound like the Sox are looking to flip him to Tampa to me. Of course this could be a bunch of posturing too. I hope not though

    mattymatty December 8, 2005, 12:44 pm
  • I’m just amazed that the Braves would take on Renteria’s retardo contract. And trade their best prospect away in the process. I agree with Nick, some crazy moves have been going down in Beantown. How are they pulling off these moves?? Some soul-selling must’ve gone down behind the scenes… :)

    Spidey December 8, 2005, 12:47 pm
  • Royce Clayton?? Well. That makes me feel a little better.

    Spidey December 8, 2005, 12:49 pm
  • I’m sure theres some serious dough going from Boston to Atlanta, Spidey.
    I didn’t include it in the above post, but the Boston Herald mentioned Kaz Matsui as a possible replacement for Renteria. Perish the thought!

    mattymatty December 8, 2005, 12:51 pm
  • The Woe-Mack experiment is officially over. Dealt to the Reds for some prospects, I think. And, yeah, I presumed that there was $$$ going south along with Edgah, but I haven’t seen any reports that that’s the case, m.m.

    Spidey December 8, 2005, 1:04 pm
  • The Boston Globe is now saying that the Sox delt Renteria along with cash considerations (a fancy way of saying they’re picking up part of Edgah’s deal) for Marte.

    mattymatty December 8, 2005, 1:28 pm
  • Quick comment, as I am on the road. The Braves aren’t stupid. Jones is blocking Marte at third, and LaRoche blocking at first. Moving Jones to the outfield is a possibility, but my guess is the Braves are over that. After last year it may be fair to say that Renteria is an NLer (or a player on a downslide, or both, take your pick), but when playing well a very capable one. A subsidized deal for him in exchange for a blocked prospect isn’t such a horrible thing.
    As for the Sox, well, this is a nice deal, as long as they don’t flip Marte for Lugo. Though I wouldn’t be surprised in Marte became part of a bigger Manny three-way (that sounds weird, right?).

    SF December 8, 2005, 1:52 pm
  • And poor Youk, will he ever get a break (or his freedom)?

    SF December 8, 2005, 1:53 pm
  • I’m also on the road, but agree with SF that this has the whiff of another deal-in-the-works. Marte’s a great pickup though, and the Sox could probably do worse than limping along with Youk at third until Marte’s ready. As for “robbing” the Braves: the list of massive Schuerholtz [sic] fuckups is extremely short, and the talent list in the Atlanta farm extremely strong.
    Who needs Theo (besides the Marlins?).

    YF December 8, 2005, 1:58 pm
  • SF, I assume Youk is still slated to play first for us this year and possibly to spell Lowell at 3rd (or take over entirely should his sh*tstorm of a season last year continue). Marte isn’t going to be in Boston this year unless he tears it up in Pawtucket or is included in the Sept. callups.
    As much as I like this trade in theory, it opens up a whole new can of worms. Now the Sox can add “find starting shortstop” to their ever expanding To-Do list. Don’t the yankees have two? Maybe we can… nah, never mind.

    mattymatty December 8, 2005, 2:03 pm
  • Hats off to the Sox…of course I’m sure me, Nick and Spidey would send money in order to get the Sox (Rolls)Royce Clayton as their SS.

    walein December 8, 2005, 2:07 pm
  • You are right, mattymatty, but we have to hope the Sox are planning what you say. I’d love it if Youk were slotted in at first (and so would Spidey’s roto team). I have the fear of Lugo…don’t do it Lucky (et al)!!!

    SF December 8, 2005, 2:30 pm
  • Hm. Big hole at SS now in Fenway. There was a guy playing there not too long ago who seems to have worn out his welcome in ChiTown as of late and might be gotten for (relatively) cheap…
    ps – I’d be eternally grateful if you started a Youk@First! campaign, SF. (Though my crappy team’ll need more help than that next season.)

    Spidey December 8, 2005, 3:45 pm
  • Looks like the Yanks will have the Myers-Monster. I think his contract is weighted so that he’ll make $100,000 everytime he gets David Ortiz out.

    walein December 8, 2005, 4:36 pm
  • Megaprops to Cash for getting actual talent for Womack. God Bless. And Myers. A good day for the Yanks, thus far….

    YF December 8, 2005, 6:04 pm
  • Both these guys are 24 or 25. Calling either of them a prospect is stretching the definition a bit. The excellent Steven Goldman of Yes Network writes in his Pinstriped Blog:
    Howard’s numbers don’t signify that he’s a future star or even a regular because of his age; he’s going to turn 25 this June, so he’s been a bit old for his leagues. As such, he shouldn’t be expected to improve dramatically or at all. Because he doesn’t walk much or hit many home runs, he’s not going to be a big offensive contributor…
    Outfielder Ben Himes will turn 25 in March. He finished the season in Low A ball, which is the biggest reason you won’t be hearing of him again. He is way old for his leagues, and though he played quite well in the Florida State League (.320/.372/.533), he was ancient by the standards of that circuit. He didn’t hit well upon being promoted to Dayton of the Midwest League. Barring a sudden explosion in spring training this year, his next step in the Yankees chain will be either Battle Creek or Tampa. That’s how far he is from the major leagues.

    mattymatty December 8, 2005, 6:16 pm
  • He also says that Howard does have value. And getting value back for Womack is no small feat.

    Nick December 8, 2005, 6:21 pm
  • True. Good point.

    mattymatty December 8, 2005, 7:01 pm
  • I found Boston’s new shortstop:
    Tejada unhappy with O’s, seeking ‘change of scenery’
    Associated Press
    SANTO DOMINGO, Dominican Republic — Baltimore Orioles shortstop Miguel Tejada said Thursday he’s unhappy with the team’s direction and wants to be traded. “I’ve been with the Orioles for two years and things haven’t gone in the direction that we were expecting, so I think the best thing will be a change of scenery,” Tejada told The Associated Press during a telephone interview in his native Dominican Republic. Tejada signed a $72 million, six-year contract with the Orioles before the 2004 season.

    mattymatty December 8, 2005, 8:01 pm
  • C’mon Matty, you know there’s only one team that hordes high-priced shortstops.

    walein December 8, 2005, 8:08 pm
  • Oops! My bad. So, where do you want him, YF? Second base? Or maybe you can put him at catcher and trade Posada for another shorstop. Can never have too many, ya know.
    SF: I just listened to an interview with Peter Gammons on WEEI (the sports radio station in Boston). Gammons was asked if he thought Theo Epstein would return as GM of the Red Sox, and he said, “Uh, yeah.” (!) He said it like you would say “Duh” to your little brother, like how could you be so stupid as to not know that. He went on to say that Theo has day-to-day contact with the Boston front office (!!), and even went so far as to say that he thought Theo was helping with the recent flury of trades(!!!).
    It was the most mater-of-fact thing to Gammons but my jaw hit the floor. The interviewers didn’t expect it either, and they immediately pressed Gammons on it. After that, Gammons held back a bit, like he realized that he had accidentally let this big secret out of the bag.
    My comment: WOW!

    mattymatty December 8, 2005, 8:29 pm
  • I thought SSSS position against right handed pull batters (super special short stop) and BFRC against pull left handers (Best Friend to Robinson Cano).
    The rest of the time he could platoon with Jeter and A Rod in center field. C’mon Matty you gotta think outside the box.
    That’s the second time I’ve seen Gammons sort of glibly push thru breaking the news that Theo was still working for the Sox. Maybe it’s a publicity stunt and Epy will come back into town on a 2004 World Champions Float with Ashton Kutcher.

    walein December 8, 2005, 8:42 pm
  • I’ve seen Buster Olney mention it too, though not so glibly (great word, walein). Normally I wouldn’t place much stock in this, but Gammons is a pretty reputable source and I’ve seen it mentioned multiple times. Also, and more importantly, the Red Sox STILL don’t have a GM, and theres nobody who is really even being considered for the position. It makes you think that there might be something going on. Personally, I sure hope so.

    mattymatty December 8, 2005, 8:45 pm
  • I love how this thread has nothing at all to do with Bernie Williams. Up until that last sentence nobody has mentioned him once since YF did in the opening dialogue 30 comments ago.

    mattymatty December 8, 2005, 8:49 pm
  • I think in the end it was a negociation tactic for money control and/or more money; but it got messy with the press and both parties realized that they overplayed their hands. So, they’re trying to keep it quiet, get some distance, so both can save a little face.
    Right now, I’d love to get Theo into our infield…the guy still has at least three stong years left in that arm.

    walein December 8, 2005, 8:51 pm
  • Bernie Williams

    Nick December 8, 2005, 8:53 pm
  • I love Bernie. I’m psyched to have him back. I understand it’s limiting and a bit over-priced (we did get rid of our most expensive “Luis Sojo” ever in Womack); but as a Yankee fan, nothing would have been more brutal then watching him come into town wearing a Kansas City Uniform. I like the idea of watching a player begin and end with one team…and I’d rather win another with Bernie on the Squad than not (even if Bernie just plays some light FM classics in the dug-out for most of the series).

    walein December 8, 2005, 8:59 pm
  • As a Red Sox fan, the more I see Bernie in the game the happier I’ll be. No disrespect, he was a great player. However, his time has come and gone.

    mattymatty December 8, 2005, 9:07 pm
  • re: Miggy trade demand
    You think it’s at all possible that the Sox will unload Manny for a package including Tejada?

    Nick December 8, 2005, 9:21 pm
  • I’d say yes, that sounds unlikely, but you never know. The O’s do have money to burn, and are known for making rash (occasionally stupid) decisions. I think the real difficulty would be getting Manny to sign off on the deal.
    What type of deal would you suggest Nick? A straight up trade would be similar in terms of total dollars…

    mattymatty December 8, 2005, 9:31 pm
  • What’s left on Manny’s contract?

    walein December 8, 2005, 9:51 pm
  • 3 years, $57M. Tejada has 4 years about $48M left.

    mattymatty December 8, 2005, 9:55 pm
  • And Bernie? Only 2 Million…whose laughing now my friend!

    walein December 8, 2005, 10:02 pm
  • yeah, but only one of em can hit.

    mattymatty December 8, 2005, 10:12 pm
  • Two words: Record deal

    walein December 8, 2005, 10:24 pm
  • Well, uhh… I bet Manny could sign some karioke!
    …what has my life become?

    mattymatty December 8, 2005, 10:37 pm
  • Think about it — Manny should like Baltimore. The fan base is the size he says he wants, the fans are not as baseball crazy as the Nation, the media are a lot less hyped since the Nats came to town, and he might hit 65 home runs there.
    Boston would have to send some money with Manny,

    john yf December 9, 2005, 12:01 am
  • Don’t I remember from Moneyball that Tejada’s sabermetrics are less than you would expect from a player with some of his stats?

    john yf December 9, 2005, 12:04 am
  • Tejada plays a good shorstop, and he hits with power. He’s right handed which means he could play wall-ball in Boston. He doesn’t get on base as well as Manny does, but then few do. He’s also a plus defender which Manny isn’t, though Manny has definitely learned how to play balls off the monster in Fenway.
    Personally, I’d love to get Tejada without giving up Manny, but I can’t imagine the O’s are looking to trade Tejada one way or the other.

    mattymatty December 9, 2005, 8:06 am
  • I think the major obstacle in the way of such a trade is the fact that they play within the same division. What makes the trade plausible is that both teams will be getting back super stars. If both trade demands have teeth (if Manny and Tejada are deadset against returning to their teams to the point of actually sitting out the spring), then this isn’t a bad trade possibility for both teams. In fact, it’s probably the best Sox fans could hope for. And the Orioles would be getting the 1st or 2nd best right handed hitter in the game.
    Matty, in reference to your earlier question, I think it would be a fair trade if the Sox traded Manny and cash straight up for Tejada and a low-level prospect. Given the pattern of recent one-sided trades in favor of Fenway, the reality will be Mike Lowell, Rich Gedman, and Marty Barrett for Miggy. If that happened, I think my cheating theory would have real credibility.

    Nick December 9, 2005, 8:29 am
  • almost forgot:
    Bernie Williams

    Nick December 9, 2005, 8:29 am
  • I have a feeling the 2006 Bernie is going to be a bit more the “Weekend at Bernie’s” Bernie than the 1998-2000 Bernie.

    SF December 9, 2005, 8:44 am
  • Just heard on EEI that the Sox will begin discussion with Tejada’s agent today, and the Gonzales talks are being put on hold.
    This trade makes so much sense for each team – each is getting almost the same player at the plate, and each is getting a spot filled that they need.
    I don’t know if I’m in love with it, but it seems to me that Tejada is one of a very short list of players that could make this work.
    My guess is that Boston does everything it can to make this work, but it’s really going to depend on how much Tejada really wants it. Is he blowing air or is he about to stamp his feet and actually demand to be traded?
    Also mentioned on EEI is Alex Cora will be included in the potential package to fill the need for SS in Baltimore filling that need for them.
    Who am I kidding? I love this the more I think about it.
    I have not really chimed in since the Beckett deal, but the things Boston is pulling off is staggering to me. It’s almost as if the rest of the leauge is doing whatever it can to hurt the Yankees -and if I were a NYY fan I would have to suspect just that.
    Now, with the Sox getting the Atlanta prospect, who by all accounts is BETTER than Hanley Ramirez, they have essentially gotten Beckett, Lowell, and Mota for Annibel Sanchez. A solid second baseman who hits for good average for a backup catcher, and now possibly one of the best shortstops in the leauge to fill the Manny void. And, how could I forget ridding ourselves of one of the most estranged players to make a stop in Boston since Carl Everett.
    To answer the question, the Sox sent 3.75 million/year with Renteria to Atlanta making the new payroll around 113 million before the attempted signing of Damon and another outfielder to replace Manny.
    Does everyone else feel that if the Sox get Tejada out of all of this, they have clearly made one of the biggest and best moves in quite a few years? Outside of the A-Rod deal to NY, this one is one of those that makes sense for both teams, and two absolute superstars trade uniforms.
    Not to mention, Tejada hits .373 against NY, and .385 against Boston.
    SF’ s have to think this is great. Yankee fans have to be shaking their heads in amazement that things have worked out this way.
    I know I would be.

    Brad-SF December 9, 2005, 9:27 am
  • I would have to think that with a ten million dollar difference between the two players, the Sox would have to contribute about ten million to make the deal work – but it may be lower since the rumor in Boston is that Cora will be included in the deal. That makes the payroll about 105-108 million. I’ll take it. Better defense. Better pitching. That’s how it’s done, and if this actually happens, Boston has done exactly that with all of these moves.
    Am I alone in my thinking here?

    Brad-SF December 9, 2005, 9:32 am
  • “It’s almost as if the rest of the leauge is doing whatever it can to hurt the Yankees -and if I were a NYY fan I would have to suspect just that.”
    exactly, brad. Thanks for the empathy.

    Nick December 9, 2005, 9:39 am
  • Every now and again, I’ll take of my blinders.
    Unlike John, who had to chime in about how Tejada sabermetrics are not up to snuff with his stats once he got wind of the possibility that Boston may or may not be interested.
    I do feel the Yankee pain here. I’m not in any way sympathetic to it, but I know it has to suck to watch all of this go on around you. Agreeing to hold on to Wang, not knowing what he may offer later down the road, and knowing that he has a bad shoulder, could really come back to haunt them a year from now.
    They were smart not to rid themselves of Cano though, and kudos to Cash on that front.

    Brad-SF December 9, 2005, 9:50 am
  • I think Cash has had a solid off-season so far. Actually, I can’t argue much with what the Yanks have done. No, the pain is a result entirely of the Sox’s ability to pull off these heists.

    Nick December 9, 2005, 10:05 am
  • Yankee pain? Red Sox questions:

    Who’s on first?
    NL player on second.
    Who’s at short? (that was a good signing — where’s the great Ramirez when you need him?)
    Declining NL player on third.
    Who’s in center?
    Will Schilling ever recover? (he’s old)
    Will Foulke ever recover?
    Will Burnett be another Vasquez?
    Myers’s in New York.
    Timlin’s another year older.
    Marte’s at Lowell’s position.
    Theo’s gone.

    “Yankee” pain is not what comes to mind.

    john yf December 9, 2005, 10:09 am
  • All decent questions, John, except that Burnett pitches for Toronto (I think you mean Beckett). On the other hand, almost all of these questions pretty much existed before the Sox started making moves to improve themselves, so you leave out the most important segment of the discussion – how have they addressed their offseason issues? They have done, by all measures, a fantastic job (for the moment on paper) of wheeling and dealing.
    Let’s summarize:
    — reasonably competent replacement for Mueller, who they didn’t plan on re-signing? Check.
    — Youkilis (in lieu of Millar) in lineup full-time? Check.
    — improvement in starting rotation? Pending Beckett’s DL trips, major check.
    — improvement in bullpen with new, previously dependable setup man? Check.
    — the above four at no cost in terms of current roster talent? Check plus.
    — dumping of what appears to be in-decline shortstop with big pricetag? Check.
    — aforementioned dumping nets one of the primo prospects in all of baseball? Holy f**king check!!!
    — Manny still on roster, either as potent bat or bargaining chip? Check.
    — Damon still an option, probably now an affordable one? Check.
    — All the above done without a GM? Check. Shocking, unbelievable, check.
    Considering the hand-wringing and particularly the schadenfreude from Yankees fans about Epstein’s departure, I would have to see this qualifies as a raging success of an off-season, all things considered. This is all on paper, admittedly, but the Sox have positioned themselves brilliantly and remade the team in short order. The kicker is that this has come at almost zero cost to the organization, in terms of dollars and minor league depth, now that Marte is in the fold. Yankee pain? Who cares? I have been watching the Red Sox move and shake, and at an entirely different level.

    SF December 9, 2005, 10:30 am
  • Yeah! Everything he said!

    mattymatty December 9, 2005, 10:38 am
  • I’m still in shock that Schuerholz thought it was a good idea to trade away a 22-year old who was crushing the ball in triple-A for a light-hitting SS who made 30 fuckin’ errors last year [!!] and even with the subsidy from the Sox will have to be paid about $7M/year plus incentives for the next three. Is it as bad an idea as, oh, the Tigers giving Kenny Rogers 16M/2? No. But it still seems to me pretty bad. Even if Renteria bounces back somewhat, I think the Sox got the big best of this one. And again, beware the Great White North b/c it looks like the Blue Jays are after Milton Bradley now, who is, admittedly, psychotic, but also a great OBP man and would add to their already potent roster.

    Spidey December 9, 2005, 11:00 am
  • of course, sf, this is the result of Theo’s years of planning roster flexibility through player development. You shouldn’t yet take down your shrines to Theo in New England.
    But the truly crazy thing is (as brad points out) is how little a hit the farm system has taken in this revamping of the roster. Basically, you’ve lost Anibel. And that’s it.
    so, sf, would you do a manny for miggy straight up?
    yf, what do you think of the bombers’ off-season so far?

    Nick December 9, 2005, 11:25 am
  • Nick: no shrines have been dismantled. Theo and his gang deserve huge credit for putting the Sox in this position, I’ve said that before. But I also said that the Theo departure wasn’t necessarily a nail in the Sox’ coffin and that the Sox could certainly recover, despite all the hemming and hawing in these parts and elsewhere. As for the Miggy/Manny straight up deal? Yes. Without a doubt I would do it. They save $12M, get a shortstop, replace Manny’s offense for the most part, and could improve their defense in left with the right guy. But it will never happen straight up, if at all, and if the Sox have to chuck in $12M then I am not sure whether it’s still a good deal. Only the bookkeepers can determine that.

    SF December 9, 2005, 12:11 pm
  • Nick:
    I’m impressed with the Yank offseason so far. The Yanks biggest offseason move, by far, was handing the keys over to Cashman. That’s going to pay massive dividends, long term. So let’s give that a check quadruple plus, using SF’s system. Other points:
    -The Yankee coaching situation did not go as planned. Check minus.
    -Matsui resigned. Check plus.
    -They got Farnsworth, the top man available who would come to them at a reasonable cost. Check.
    -Womack dumped for live bodies. Check plus.
    -Stinnett: At least he was cheap. And better than Flaherty. Check.
    -Addition by subtraction: Brown, Sierra, Flaherty… Check plus.
    There’s still much to be seen here. The Sox have done incredibly well. The Jays have bought some really nice parts (at huge cost). We’ll see what happens. More later…..

    YF December 9, 2005, 12:37 pm
  • And we could add to YF’s comments two questions: How many of Cashman’s wonderful moves took any kind of imagination and how many of them would have occurred regardless of Cashman’s new “power”.
    – Dumping Womack – no check – he was never playing another game for the Yankees, and two 24 year old A ballers, though technically “warm” bodies, are basically equivalent to resin bags. And they’re subisdizing Womack’s Cincy tenure.
    – Bolstering bullpen with a player like Farnsworth at market price? Duh.
    – Stinnett? What an impact move.
    – Matsui re-signed. Was there ever a doubt about this, particularly when they threw $13M a year at him? No check deserved.
    – Not re-signing Brown, Sierra, Flaherty. Again, where’s the imagination?
    – Coaching situation – who knows, check withheld until further notice.
    How many of these moves took managerial wherewithal? How many of these moves would have happened even without Cashman’s “new power”? My guess? Most, if not all, of them.

    SF December 9, 2005, 12:45 pm
  • Well, regardless of who was responsible (I think its still debatable how much power Cashman has) getting rid of Womack was a great thing for the yankees. Of course they shouldn’t have signed him in the first place, but at least (for them) they recognized their mistake and corrected it, even at a cost of $900K.
    Matsui wasn’t a sure thing, though I was surprised when the yankees offered him that much money. He’s a good player, but nowhere near a great player, and he’s making great player money.
    Stinett, Sierra, Flaherty, Farnsworth… *yawn*

    mattymatty December 9, 2005, 12:49 pm
  • apparently Sf doesn’t recall last off-season when Tampa and Georgie’s cronies provided much input into decisions:
    here’s what I’ve been able to gather from everything I’ve read about who did what last year:
    1. Womack was from Tampa
    2. Wright was from George
    3. The Big Unit deal was ordered by George
    4. Pavano was a Cashman move (Remember Theo and Larry wanted him and at a higher price).
    5. Cashman wanted Beltran to be the top priority of the off-season because of the CF problem which was apparently not a big priority for other people in the FO.
    6. Cash signed Tino to a back-up role which was a decent move considering its relative cheapness.
    7. Kenny Lofton for F-Rod. Bad trade by Cashman, but Torre’s misuse of Lofton was the primary reason for this.
    You also underrate the players who Cashman got in return. Howard is a decent offensive player who has value as a potential utility player. Again, when you trade Womack and you get anyone useful, you’ve done well.
    YF also failed to include Cashman’s decision to slot Phillips behinf Giambi: This is a cost-cutting move with good value. Phillips’ minor league numbers show an above average bat.
    Sometimes it’s the details that make the artist.

    Nick December 9, 2005, 12:58 pm
  • matty, why is it debatable how much power Cashman has right now? All reports about his recent resigning indicate that for the first time in three years he has the final say on all personnel decisions.

    Nick December 9, 2005, 1:00 pm
  • Oh, jeez, Nick, you are really grasping, quite unlike you (seriously!). I am not making any judgment on whether or not the moves New York has made are good or bad (but if you’re curious, they’re all probably wise ones, if unimaginative), but to try to spin it into some sort of course-has-shifted-now-it’s-Cash’s-team is preposterous. The Yankees have made no real moves of note, unless you consider signing a middle reliever (Farnsworth) and giving Mike Myers a 325% raise to face Big Papi three times next season moves of note. As for the “no big splashes like last year”, it seems that the recent reporting in the New York papers on the Yankees problematic P&L/balance sheet would indicate that the bookkeepers in Tampa are THE force behind Cashman’s newfound “restraint”. We can therefore continue to reasonably question who is really running the show. It might very well be the accountants. Or, Cashman’s Stinnett pickup was genius. Take your pick.

    SF December 9, 2005, 1:07 pm
  • Like I said,
    I tried to pay Cash a compliment in my post, and John-YF still comes back with a list of questions he knows are rediculous and one sided.
    First Base? If Youk stays, he’s at least as serviceable as Millar, right? In fact, he’s better than Millar and I’ve only seen him at the 3spot one time. Question answered.
    NL Player at second? Um, is he pitching? I’m pretty sure playing second base in the AL is equally as difficult or easy as the NL.
    Who’s in center? Negotiations, John. I’m split down the middle there, but who is playing center in NY agian?
    Declining player at third? Why, because he had a bad year? I think I’ll hold off on the automatic lablel of “declining” until he puts up another bad year. If you can call his year bad – he was the GG winner.
    Beckett another Vazques? Well, this I don’t know for sure, but when you can pick him up for Annibel Sanchez, you make the move. I’d imagine that NYY fans would be elated to have Beckett right now. Unless of course, you’re happy hoping Small is the same guy for an entire year and Wang stays healthy?
    Schill to get healthy? Well, I don’t think he’s the type of guy to hang around and tarnish what he’s done if he did not think he’d come back into full form. And, just for the record, NYY fans absolutely no room to question our old man ace when you’re sending RJ out there for another two years and more than 8mill more.
    Foulke to get healthy? Who the hell knows. It can’t possibly get worse for him.
    So in spite of the fact that I answered all of your questions with ease, I’d assume that you’d still pass on Beckett and Lowell for nothing, and getting a great second basemant (yeah, look at the stats) and one of the top three prospects in all of baseball for a backup catcher and a minor leauge player?
    So yes, when I think about Posada, Bernie (again), Crosby, a year older Sheffield and RJ, an imploding reliever with one decent year under his belt (In ATL no doubt), a very unsteady bullpen minus Mariano, and a guy who can’t catch a cold at first?
    Yes, Yankee pain is what comes to mind. But, I’ve come to expect you to put a masterful spin on absolutely everything that happens to either of these teams.
    Why, John, can’t you just admit that the Sox have had an unbelievable past month, and it has done nothing but make them better in nearly every aspect. Yeah, they have questions still, but they have a lot of chips to work with to solve them – a lot. Outside of getting little Upton, having Youk, Lester, and Marte is an unreal offer to put on the table – if it comes to that.
    But, have fun with Myers at 2million. I tried to applaud Cash for his offseason while at the same time pointing out what has gone on around him in this division.
    Yankee pain indeed. Just ask Nick. He gets it.

    Brad-SF December 9, 2005, 1:12 pm
  • SF, I’ve developed a narrative here about Cashman turning around the organization (as all great narratives include identifiable heroes I have given Brian the role of artist. In reality (the original source) he is not a genius, nor is he an artist.) Still, thus far, Cashman has done nothing I can find fault with, and nothing to counter the story. The truth is that it’s to early to tell if, as I suspect, Cashman is changing the franchise’s course. And, of course, it’s to early to tell if he’s not. BTW, the same goes for what’s going down in Boston. These trades have all been positive (near criminally spectacular in my view) for the Sox, but they were also the result of Theo and co’s years of development work. The test will be to see if the new gm/gm team sticks to previous years philosophy.

    Nick December 9, 2005, 1:35 pm
  • But Nick, your narrative is grounded in the idea that Cashman has new powers, given to him by Tampa. But if Tampa is making the rules checkbook-wise then that power is fallacious. In this case, he is hardly the man “changing the course”. The usual suspect is. For the Red Sox, the incredible thing is that they seem to be operating under the same “do NOT increase payroll” constraints, and at a lower ceiling even, but they have been able to be way more creative than the Yankees. I think that’s due to a far deeper farm system built over the last three years, but it also seems that they are just thinking bigger (see Marte, Andy) than anyone else, the Yankees included.

    SF December 9, 2005, 2:47 pm
  • I don’t think “bigger thinking” has anything to do with the differences between the Red Sox’s off-season movement thus far and the Yankees movement.
    The Sox have more to work with: Both money and roster flexibility. The sox have set this off-season up for the past few years and the Yankees are mostly paying for the sins of the last four-five years.
    The reason Matsui costs so much is not because of his value on the field. He costs so much because his jersey, and therefore the Yankee merchandise machine, around the world goes up markedly as a result of him being on the team. The reason Matsui was signed in the first place was that Ichiro’s Jersey sales eclipsed the Yankees sales in foreign markets.
    Cashman has a much bigger job, a larger market, a boss that has made very few friends of people through-out the league, and as a result his options suffer.
    This isn’t to say anything badly towards the Sox. You guys have put together a very exciting off-season thus far; and are getting the big backpage headlines.
    I still think Theo is helping with the strings and that he’ll be back…and as a Yankee fan, i’d rather he didn’t go back to Boston because he’s seemed to have done such a swell job.
    To Brad–
    about Shilling–“Well, I don’t think he’s the type of guy to hang around and tarnish what he’s done if he did not think he’d come back into full form.”
    As long as microphones exist, and tv cameras are allowed in the club house and on the field during the game, Curtis Shilling will be there.
    And if he can’t get the money he wants in Boston? Well, then he’ll go some where else to “not tarnish” his record.

    walein December 9, 2005, 4:17 pm
  • Okay, the Sox have had an incredible past month. Practically the whole WS team is gone or injured, and the replacements are not gonna come close to beating the Yankees.
    That’s what it comes down to: Wins. I don’t care if Cashman’s moves are “unimaginative.” I care what team he puts on the field.

    1B Edge Yankees
    2B Even?
    3B Edge Yankees
    SS Edge Yankees, we have to assume
    LF Edge Sox, if he sticks around
    CF Even
    RF Edge Yankees
    C Unlike YF, I like Jorgie
    Starting P Edge Yankees
    Closer Edge Yankees
    Middle R ???
    Bench Do the Sox have a bench?
    G Manager The Sox don’t have a GM
    Manager Big Joe

    I’m not thinkin’ “Yankee pain.”

    john yf December 9, 2005, 4:29 pm
  • I forgot DH. You gotta like Ortiz, but Yankee fans have to like the way Giambi came back and hope Phillips will cut it at first.
    The Giambino had a better July or August than Ortiz, and I predict an MVP-caliber season for him this year.
    And sure Manny hits better than Matsui, but we like Matsui. More than Nixon, for example. As the Captain said, We want Matsui up when we need a hit, because we know he’ll hit the ball hard.

    john yf December 9, 2005, 4:33 pm
  • “But Nick, your narrative is grounded in the idea that Cashman has new powers, given to him by Tampa. But if Tampa is making the rules checkbook-wise then that power is fallacious.”
    This is speculation on your part. You read a report about the Yanks being in the red and you jumped to the conclusion that the team is slashing payroll as a result. My guess is that, despite these reports, the Yanks are doing just fine. It was only last year that the Yanks added another another $30 million in payroll. According to the same recent reports, the yanks barely broke even in 2003-2004. It would stand to reason that they wouldn’t have added the Big Unit, Wright, Pavano and Womack if the bottom line was really that restrictive.

    Nick December 9, 2005, 5:21 pm
  • So, they’re saying the Sox are going to have two GMs and “restructure” their front office. Could be clouds over-yonder.

    walein December 9, 2005, 6:35 pm
  • SF: You just seem congenitally incapable of giving Cashman a fair, or even a reasonable, shake. No matter what positive steps he takes, you choose some other criteria by which he must be measured. And when the measurements become troubling to you, you revert to this impossible-to-prove-or-disprove deus-ex-machina argument about Tampa/the Boss/Money. In your system, he can never win, though, ironically, the Yankee team he runs seems to come up ahead of the Sox every single year, with one recent exception. Most of us can only read the tea leaves before us.
    The Yanks aren’t the most flexible team, given their roster and their minor league system. They also had far fewer gaps to fill than the Sox this off-season. He’s done a solid job of filling needs without giving away the store, which means it will be all the easier to be “creative” down the road, either next month or in August or next year.
    As for payroll, every GM has to deal with a budget. So I’m really not sure how that’s a preclusion on his authority that isn’t applicable to any other GM. But it’s a case of your clear double-standard when it comes to evaluating him. Give Cash carte blanche, and then he’s “the guy who can just buy whatever he wants.” Give him a budget and he’s a “puppet.” It’s a nice rhetorical strategy for you, SF, but it’s not a particularly enlightening or reasonable way for evaluating Cashman’s performance.

    YF December 9, 2005, 6:40 pm
  • Here’s a “reasonable” assessment then, taking George out of the equation:
    Cashman stinks. He can’t develop a farm system, he gets credit for Stick’s work undeservedly, and he makes both bad free agent signings (Pavano, Wright, Womack) and bad trades, Shawn Chacon notwithstanding. None of the Yankees’ problems are Steinbrenner’s fault, they are all Brian’s.
    Is that accurate, though? Probably not. But if you want your criticism of my previous comments to hold up then your argument has to be assessed under a similar counterlogic, which it does not.
    In your scenario, Cashman never fails. The bad moves of prior days were George’s fault, but now that you like what’s happening (Stinnett! Farnsworth! Some 25 year old A-ball no-talent! What a sage this GM is!) and all of a sudden Cashman’s da man. It’s not going to fly, YF. We know what Cashman can do, which isn’t a heck of a lot. I agree with one part of how you characterize my post: no matter what, Tampa calls the shots, and Cashman has limited leeway. If he makes a good move within that limited role than good for him, but it’s no proof of much. Making Kelly Stinnett and the dumping of Tony Womack into some sort of smoking gun that Cashman is now the James Levine of all things personnel is pretty lame. Let’s see an impact, creative, and unexpected move that could never be credited to Steinbrenner and then you’ll have me rethinking my position. Until then, he’s a mediocre flunky, and he has done nothing to disprove this. My position has been consistently dismissive over the past few years and this offseason doesn’t really change my mind, no matter how much you want to give him extra super duper credit with a gold star for signing an available and work-deprived backup catcher.
    (On the other hand, who needs a GM?)

    SF December 9, 2005, 7:26 pm
  • Well that just speaks for itself. If ignorance is bliss, SF lives in nirvana.

    YF December 9, 2005, 7:42 pm
  • John–
    I’ll counter with this.
    1B– If the Yanks are starting Phillips, how do you know that he’s better than Youk, who is apparently our 1B next year. At least Youk has played in the majors, and I saw him play at 1st in the minors. He’s not bad. I would say even, because really they are both question marks, Phillips for lack of major league experience, and Youk for lack of ml experience at first.
    2B– Based on last season, even, but I’d be more comfortable with Loretta than Cano, just because Loretta is a proven veteran, and Cano is in his second year. He’s a good player, I just feel better about our situation at second
    3B– Edge Yanks, assuming we are not heavily weighing off the field personality
    SS–As of now, Yanks, but this could change
    LF–For now, Edge Sox
    CF–Once again, even for now, but I think that anyone the Sox get will be better than what the Yanks have (aka nothing)
    RF– Edge Yanks, if we’re going on talent strictly alone. Although I really would like to punch Sheffield in the face
    DH– How can you possibly compare Giambi to Ortiz????? Major Edge Sox. Sorry.
    Starting P– How do Johnson (bad back), Mussina, Pavano (will he even pitch this season???), Small (one good season, otherwise mediocre), Wang (injury problems), and Chacon edge Schilling (who should be healthy this season, barring any unforseen circumstances), Beckett (a 25 year old who has had his share of blister problems, but I’d take those over rotater cuff injuries, etc), Clement (decent as a number 3, although I’m not crazy about him), Wakefield (who lost his personal catcher, but Shoppach did catch Charlie Zink, a knuckleballer, in the minors), and Jon Papelbon (Only 24 and with less than a season of experience under his belt, but did you see this kid pitch down the stretch in pressure situations last year??), plus Arroyo in the bullpen for start spots and Lester at Triple A, maybe even ready by early July, and Wells to be traded. Please explain your reasoning to me.
    Closer– Edge Yankees, for sure
    Middle Relief– The Sox should have Arroyo in the pen next year, plus Timlin (assuming Foulke is closing), Bradford, Mota, Hansen (maybe??), probably DiNardo (He’s a lefty), and possibly Delcarmen and/or Van Buren, depending on spring training. The Yanks, to my knowledge, have Farnsworth (who has yet to prove himself in big situations), Myers (who will probably pitch about 30 innings, although the same applies to Bradford), and Sturtze(???), so I guess even, although the Sox seem to have more quality arms, if untested, especially if lester comes up in a relief role at midseason (which pap did last year) which is likely,
    Bench– Sox have Cora (assuming he’s not their starter at short), Shoppach (rookie catcher), possibly Pedroia and/or Machado, Yanks have Stinett, Bernie, anyone else? I’d call it even until we know more
    GM– Sox have the two-headed monster of Cherington and Hoyer, alledgedly, but Lajoie will play a role, as will Kapstien, but LL still has a big say, and who knows what role Cash has, so I’ll say even cuz I don’t have a clue
    Manager– Torre, based on past seasons, although don’t discredit Tito. I’m happy with him, even if I often want to kill him. Hey, we did tie in record last season, and the managers played no small part in that
    So there you have it. It’s basically even between the two teams as of now. What else is new?

    Laura December 9, 2005, 8:10 pm
  • All that and I forgot catcher. I give the edge to Tek based on leadership alone, because when it comes down to it, I don’t think Tek or Posada are that great talentwise, at least at this point.

    Laura December 9, 2005, 8:14 pm
  • I’d have to disagree about Jason “Melvin Moody” Varitek. Varitek’s “leadership” role is a myth.

    walein December 9, 2005, 8:50 pm
  • Walein –
    None of us, Yankee fans or Sox fans can take you seriously when you spout such vomit about easily the best catcher in the leauge.
    The minute you decided to give Giambi as much credit at the DH as Ortiz, I have decided that later in my life I may want the finger movement that I use up responding to such illustrious pinstriped daydreams.
    PS – If you wanted to compare talent in the field (past accomplishments being considered) instead of playing the game, would the Yankees not have won 115 games each of the last five seasons? I mean, they have essentially gone out and signed the best available major leauge pitcher or fielder in several of the past off seasons, no?
    If the games were decided on paper, and not on the field, the Yanks easily win every time.
    But somehow, even though they Yanks had clearly more talent at most of the singled out positions last year, the record were the same and the games over the past five years are dead even –
    Just once again pointing out your insane posts about nothing mean just that – nothing.
    “the replacements are not going to come close to beating the Yanks”
    Can you see into the future? Are you some kind of psycho-baseball shaman?
    Didn’t you say the same thing last year? And probably the year before, and so on?
    The teams play each other evenly every year, John – don’t hurt your own reputation of being a decent writer and good baseball man by making such statement.

    Brad-SF December 9, 2005, 11:39 pm
  • Giambi equaling Ortiz is obviously speculation. But it’s possible. He’s two-time MVP and one of the months last year after he finally came back was his best month ever. He had a .457 obp and tied his hero Mickey Mantle for most home runs by a Yankee in a month.
    Now if Giambi is the DH, of course we can’t say Phillips will be better than Youkilis. When I gave the Yanks the edge at first, I was thinking Giambi.
    Some of the pitching matchups match up:
    1) Johnson v. Schilling (aging superstars)
    Johnson obviously had the better year. I expect his margin next year to be even bigger. At his age, Schilling may never come back.
    2) Pavano v. Beckett
    When they were both Marlins in 2004, Pavano was clearly the better pitcher. I don’t think any of us know how Pavano or Beckett will be in 2006. Pavano had an offyear, knows the league, and has something to prove.
    3) Wang v. Papelbon
    Edge Wang
    4) Moose v Wells (aging Yankees)
    Wells won’t be in Boston
    5) Chacon & Small v. Clement & Wakefield
    Edge Yankees. Have you checked Wake’s era without Mirabelli?
    6) Brown v. Wells (bad backs)
    they’re both gone — edge Yankees for not having to deal with Brown any more
    7) Farnsworth v Timlin
    It will be very interesting to see how both do next year. Farnsworth because he’s the young setup, Timlin because he’s the aging setup.
    Other points:
    “Cashman can’t build a farm system.”
    Cano and Wang are from the farm. We’ll see how Philips and Crosby do. How many Sox farmhands will start the season?
    Myers is a twofer: he weakens the Sox and fills one of the Yankee’s biggest needs. Leiter may also be in the pen, along with Small. We know Small is good in the pen, Leiter will only be there if he shows he can still do the job, as he did in the postseason.
    “The teams play each other evenly every year.”
    That Red Sox team is not here anymore, especially if Damon signs elsewhere and there’s a Manny trade. If the Sox stick to 4 years 40 million, watch the Yankees sign him.
    Players are not interchangeable parts. The Idiots knew how to win. Who knows what Loretta, Lowell and company will do?

    john yf December 10, 2005, 6:41 pm
  • Chacon, Small & Wright v Clement, Wakefield and Arroyo
    Edge Yankees
    Wright also has something to prove
    The Gator will pump him up

    john yf December 10, 2005, 6:43 pm
  • And re NL Loretta not having to pitch — Womack didn’t have to pitch either.
    Some players have trouble switching leagues.

    john yf December 10, 2005, 6:45 pm
  • John–
    I think that Loretta is more of a sure thing than Womack was last year. Sure he hit .300 in 04, but Loretta is a career .301 hitter, including .304, .314, and .335 in 02-04. Check it out.

    Laura December 10, 2005, 7:40 pm
  • Also how do Small, Chacon, and Wright edge Clement, Wake, and Arroyo? Small had one good year, but can he duplicate it? Chacon I’ll give you, assuming he has no unknown shoulder problem or whatever. Wright is a virtual unknown and even if he is healthy is prone to implode at any point. Clement falls apart in September every year, but last year he at least pitched, even after getting hit in the head by a screaming line drive, Wake, although a question mark without Belli, was the ace of our staff next year, and Arroyo will be in the bullpen, where his record shows he does well.
    Is Pavano going to even pitch at all next year?? Have you heard anything positive, John? For the moment at least, Beckett is healthy, as is Schilling, at least to my knowledge. Plus Papelbon has zero history of injuries that I know of, unlike Wang, and as far as I know, Johnson still has a bad back and two years left on his contract. You might want to ask yourself some questions about your own team, John, before you start critisizing the Sox staff.

    Laura December 10, 2005, 7:49 pm
  • Hey guys–
    What’s with the test before we can post?? It’s really annoying, to say the least.

    Laura December 10, 2005, 7:50 pm
  • Typepad has been intermittently imposing this to protect from spamming the comments. It hasn’t been activated by us. Though we have been getting crude advertisements buried in our comments on threads elsewhere, so depending on how bad it gets this might become an unfortunate feature.

    SF December 10, 2005, 8:00 pm
  • Yuck!
    On a different note, maybe Lyle Overbay should be a Yankee. He’s very into the money.

    Laura December 10, 2005, 8:28 pm
  • I’m not criticizing the Sox staff (well, a little bit, of course): I’m applying Brad-SF’s Yankee putdowns to a Yankee / Sox comparison. Yes, there are many questions about the Yankee pitching — this is not Pettite, El Duque and the boys.
    But the Yankees are going with most of the team that played very well after a very bad start put them in a hole. While the Sox have a lot of questions: four of the nine starting position players are new, and that may go up to six — two/thirds of a team that won the Series a year ago. More questions about the pitching too, I think.
    You saw the report that Theo was against the Beckett trade? Beckett may be very good, but it’s not ridiculous to say he’s no lock.

    john yf December 12, 2005, 8:26 am
  • Brad–
    Please read my posts. I didn’t say varitek wasn’t a good catcher (though I wouldn’t say he’s the best catcher in baseball either). I said I felt that his “leadership” intangible was a myth. Now, I’m not imagining you will agree with me but let’s not call that “vomit.” I’m guessing that the fact I continue to call Varitek a ‘bully’ is what’s getting your ire up.
    To that we’ll have to agree to disagree since there is only one event to really go off and both parties involved are not favorites of either fan base (arod and varitek).
    That being said
    he’s still a bully and over-rated for his “leadership qualities”.

    walein December 12, 2005, 1:48 pm
  • Walein:
    Are Derek’s leadership qualities a myth? I assume you would say “no”, based on oral arguments by his teammates, his manager, his team owner, the example he sets. You’d be right.
    So on what basis can you make your unfounded charge about Varitek’s own leadership skills as “overrated”? His fellow teammates consider him a leader, his team Owner considers him a leader. You don’t. Who’s more believable?

    SF December 12, 2005, 2:44 pm
  • I can believe the Sox see Varitek as a leader. To the rest of the league, he can seem like a bully.
    He’s no Bernie Williams, our very own Classical guitar playing record holder for postseason home runs, rbis and runs scored, who does it all with class.
    Yankee fans hope Cash brings him back and he has another good offensive year.

    john yf December 12, 2005, 5:30 pm
  • Since when do “Sounds of the Seagull” and “This Song is Soft Like Melted Cheese” qualify as “classical” music, John?!

    SF December 12, 2005, 5:45 pm
  • I’m a Yankee fan—hey, I’m YF—and I’m sorry but i just don’t get the whole Varitek-is-a-bully meme. Why? Because he got into a little boys-will-be-boys shoving match with A-Rod? Who gives a crap? I don’t read the Boston papers daily, but to my knowledge he’s considered a fairly solid citizen, as professional baseball players go. Maybe he stole someone’s gold glove this year, but don’t blame him for the idiocy of the BBWAA.
    There’s no beef in this beef.

    YF December 12, 2005, 5:46 pm
  • man, Jeter’s such a slut. Oops! Wrong thread.
    Personally, I dislike Varitek. I don’t think it’s because he’s a bully; mainly it’s because I think he lays it on thick with the hustle crap. It’s like in little league with the coach’s untalented son. He’d do really annoying shit to make up for the fact that he sucked. For instance, he’d go full sprint after drawing a walk, or expectorate all over home plate while he was at bat to seem like a professional player, or slide into you at second real hard (incidentally, I hate Pete Rose and I hate him solely for ending a guy’s season/career at home plate. Isn’t the lesson from that incident that he’s a raving self-absorbed dick?!). Anyway, really all these things are my issue. People dislike Jeter for jumping on the top step after every big hit (they think he’s being a publicity hound) and I love him for that. So, essentially I’m being irrational, or I have a double-standard for these things. But I guess I just wanted to say that I find Varitek is a bit of a ham of hustle. After you make an out, you don’t have to sprint back to the dugout. Unless you have to pee really bad.
    But Jeter’s strikes me as a bit loose. Why not settle down a bit, DJ?

    Nick December 12, 2005, 6:34 pm
  • to clarify: I hate Pete Rose because it was the all-star game (pre-post season home field on the line, so there really was no reason)

    Nick December 12, 2005, 6:35 pm
  • Let’s go people. 2 more comments and this thread breaks the century barrier. Get on it. Someone bitch about Varitek or Pete Rose–whatever. Keep the pile moving.

    YF December 12, 2005, 6:56 pm
  • it has to be said:
    Bernie Williams

    Nick December 12, 2005, 6:58 pm
  • One More Time

    Nick December 12, 2005, 7:01 pm
  • I guess the thing is the quotes about Varitek all come from the period when he was given the contract, and made captain, and the 3rd time in the 20th century…yada yada yada (yes, i know the same goes for Jeter).
    The quotes are from johnny damon about how he’s been the leader forever, and from Jay Payton (really). Shilling throws a little in there but there was so much feedback from the multi-mics he was using it’s hard to make out if he’s actually talking about Varitek or how he sees a little of himself in Varitek, and so does Bronson “I’ve-been-lead-all-the-way-to-the-bullpen” Arroyo.
    I don’t think this makes him a leader.
    I could be wrong.
    Where are the quotes from the two best hitters on the team, or Pedro Martinez? I know he doesn’t catch their best pitcher (but Wakefield and Varitek have a “special relationships with God” which might make Andy Petit their leader) but I’m sure there’s a quote from Tim somewhere.
    I also found quotes from Bellhorn and Theo Epstein. It seems like anyone who calls the guy “a leader” is short for that organization.
    This is in no way an attack on his ability to play baseball in the catcher position. He’s a very good hitting catcher, seems like a decent enough fielder.

    walein December 12, 2005, 7:05 pm
  • Varitek. Bully. Beef.

    john yf December 12, 2005, 7:13 pm
  • You own Bernie’s record, SF?

    john yf December 12, 2005, 7:14 pm
  • I wish. I couldn’t locate where to buy it until I googled “weak-ass fusiony drek” and found all sorts of places selling it. The steep $1.99 sale price turned me off, though.

    SF December 12, 2005, 7:18 pm
  • I think you’ve got the $1.99 price mixed up with the google search “johnny damon idiot book” (one of the top ones is here). “bernie williams cd” turns up 465,000 hits, starting with his page at Verve.

    john yf December 13, 2005, 8:20 am
  • john yf December 13, 2005, 8:26 am

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