• 108 pitches. 83 for strikes (77 percent).
  • 19 consecutive batters retired.
  • First-pitch strikes to 15 straight hitters.
  • 18 straight scoreless innings in the playoffs, and counting.
  • Three postseason shutouts in six starts (t-second all time).
  • First playoff shutout by a Sox starter since Luis Tiant in 1975.
  • 87 game score, fourth-highest in Red Sox postseason history (highest since Jim Lonborg in 1967) and best performance by any starter in the postseason since … Josh Beckett in 2003.
  • 96 comments… add one
    • After watching him pitch in the 2003 World Series, I commented that the FO should try to swap Josh Beckett for John Burkett and see if anyone noticed. I am so, so beyond thrilled that this guy is on our team.

      Jackie (SF) October 4, 2007, 12:45 am
    • CNNSI article says Beckett became the first pitcher in post season history to pitch a complete game shutout without allowing an extra base hit or walking a batter while striking out atleast 8.
      He also became just the second pitcher (Christy Matthewson 4) to have atleast 3 complete game shutouts in his career in the post season.
      This is perhaps the second best pitching performance in playoff history.

      TJ October 4, 2007, 1:19 am
    • shouldnt the game score be 109? 50 plus 27 (outs) plus 10 (2 points each ionning completed after 4th) plus 8 (strikeouts) minus 4 (hits allowed) ????

      TJ October 4, 2007, 1:33 am
    • wait its minus 2 for each hit so it still should be 105

      TJ October 4, 2007, 1:34 am
    • GmSc – Game Score – This is a value created by Bill James that evaluates how good a pitcher’s start was.
      Start with 50 points. Add 1 point for each out recorded, (or 3 points per inning). Add 2 points for each inning completed after the 4th. Add 1 point for each strikeout. Subtract 2 points for each hit allowed. Subtract 4 points for each earned run allowed. Subtract 2 points for each unearned run allowed. Subtract 1 point for each walk.

      TJ October 4, 2007, 1:37 am
    • ignore me my math obviously sucks at 2 am lol

      TJ October 4, 2007, 1:39 am
    • I have no idea how I came up with that number… and of course I cant delete the messages so imma look like an idiot now til everyones done surfing this thread…. lol

      TJ October 4, 2007, 1:40 am
    • What I found most amazing was the fact that (and maybe I was being overcritical) I didn’t think he looked anywhere near as dominant and in control in the first inning as he did later in the game. I wasn’t worried about it, but to me he looked just kind of “eh” in the first. To use some cliches “way to settle in” “just throw strikes” “let your fielders do the work”.

      QuoSF October 4, 2007, 1:46 am
    • (I don’t need to take off my YF cap to say that..) it was a joy watching Beckett pitch tonight. Great, great stuff.

      attackgerbil October 4, 2007, 4:18 am
    • I second the gerbil. I DVR’d it and watch it after the fact and once he got past the initial wildness he was dominant in a way i haven’t seen in a long long time.
      What I did find interesting is that he had great stuff, there weren’t any “you can’t hit” that pitches. Sometimes, when a pitcher is “on”, the pitches he makes are unhittable. Meaning that the batter can’t get his bat on that ball because its moving too fast, or too wild or in spots that he just can’t get too.
      Beckett didn’t have many pitches like that. What he did have is an approach and a determination. Get ahead, expand the strike zone, don’t give in. I saw so many pitches outside, or high fastballs that looked oh so tempting but ran away from the plate, the pitches in the dirt, and so on.
      He really seemed ahead of everybody, both in the count and in terms of mindset, that after about the 5th inning, I knew that the suddenly weak-hitting Angels had no chance. Besides Vlad’s single late, no Angel hit the bat hard. Nothing solidly or with authority. They were forced to hunt and peck and defensively swing and miss.
      It was awe-some.

      Carlos (YF) October 4, 2007, 9:19 am
    • The Sox have a monster in Beckett – his limited yet extraordinary record in the post-season combined with his relative youth has to make them feel like – barring any unexpected catastrophies (i.e. injury) – they have a guy who promises to not only be one of the top 3-5 aces in the game for years to come, but also a guy who clearly steps up huge in October. That’s a great feeling (for them) and a not so great one for YFs.
      Based in part on this and certainly on how the Sox/Yanks do relative to one another this October, it’ll be interesting to see how far the Yankees might go in any possible Johan Santana sweepstakes this off-season.

      IronHorse (yf) October 4, 2007, 9:26 am
    • This is perhaps the second best pitching performance in playoff history.
      I think that’s a bit much. If you follow the link in my original post, you’ll see that Roger Clemens by game score (1 hit, 15 Ks, 98) has the best, Babe Ruth and Dave McNally (11-inning, three-hit shutout) both had 97s. There’s Larson’s perfect game (seven strikeouts), Beckett’s 2003 masterpiece (11 Ks), Bob Gibson in 1968 (17 Ks), Randy Johnson’s identical pair of three-hit, 11-K shutouts in 2001.
      That said, when you’re looking at the two best pitching performances of the postseason since 2001 — and they’re both by Josh Beckett — that’s pretty special. A truly masterful performance last night.

      Paul SF October 4, 2007, 9:41 am
    • Beckett = awesome.
      I’d love to add something intelligent to this thread, but in reality, one word can sum it right up.

      Brad October 4, 2007, 10:19 am
    • Wang’s better
      Just kidding.

      Sam-YF October 4, 2007, 10:47 am
    • Although TBS tried hard to make that game suck, Beckett wouldn’t let them.
      This has to get the entire team so fired up.

      LocklandSF October 4, 2007, 10:50 am
    • If I can change the topic a bit. Why the hell did Lou Pinella pull Zambrano after 6 innings and 85 pitches? He had given up 1 run and 4 hits. He didnt even pinch hit for him. He gave some excuse like I wanted him ready to go on short rest on sunday. So he sacrifices the current game?
      Moves like this point to how overrated or past his prime as a manager sweet lou is.

      Sam-YF October 4, 2007, 10:56 am
    • Needless to say, that was the ace performance I was looking for to justify trading Hanley. Still, why doesn’t he pitch like or near that almost everytime out? If he has four or five more starts in that range this post-season I will prompty STFU becuase that “ace” will have led his team to a World Championship.

      Pete October 4, 2007, 11:21 am
    • So Beckett has to pitch a complete game shutout every time out to be justified? I think that’s asking a bit much, Pete. The guy did win twenty games with a 3.2ERA and had some of the best stats in baseball this year.

      Brad October 4, 2007, 11:30 am
    • Ooops. Sorry, I forgot my own rules there for a second.

      Brad October 4, 2007, 11:31 am
    • Seriously Pete, I think that this year has proven that the trade worked out well for the sox. Esp. when you take Lowell’s insane year into account. If Beckett has starts that are 75% as effective as that for the rest of the post-season, Sox will be very pleased.

      Sam-YF October 4, 2007, 11:32 am
    • Still, why doesn’t he pitch like or near that almost everytime out?
      You mean why wasn’t he 30-0 with a zero ERA and 240 Ks in 270 innings?

      Tyrel SF October 4, 2007, 11:33 am
    • Absolutely, Sam. I mean, you pull your ace starter early from a game so he can be rested to start a game you have no assurances of even playing? What if Zambrano threw a CG and the Cubs swept?
      I’m hoping and praying the Cubs get swept now, so everyone can finally be shown once and for all what a terrible manager Piniella is.

      Paul SF October 4, 2007, 11:34 am
    • Brad –
      “like or near that”
      His two year average in Boston is a pedestrian 115 ERA+ – funny enough that’s his career average too.
      My only point is that’s Pettitte – good not great territory. But not good if you’ve traded Jeter.
      Like I said, I’ll prompty STFU if he keeps “like or near that” up for the next thre weeks.

      Pete October 4, 2007, 11:35 am
    • I was intrigued by Lou’s decision as well. Like you said, 85 pitches, 54 of them strikes, 8 Ks, and besides Drew’s homer, no extra base hits. He never had more than one hit an inning, never in any jams. A very strong and consistent performance from your ace…cut short because…?
      The schedule for this ALDS is game 1, game 2, off, game 3, game 4, off, game 5. Meaning that Zambrano would pitch at most one other game in this series. Either Game 4 or Game 5.
      Game 4 would occur on the 4th day after he pitched, and game 5 would be on normal 4 days rest.
      Isn’t it the logical thing to do is pitch Zambrano in game 1 like you normally would (he’s an innings horse), then if facing elimination start him in game 4 on short rest. If not, start him in Game 5 if necessary on full rest. Your best pitcher in an elimination game on full rest.
      I guess if you hate your other starters you might want to avoid them at all cost. So start your ace on short rest. You think an extra 20-30 pitches to get into the eighth inning (or beyond) was going to affect him when you are already planning on starting him on short rest the next time? Thats what astounds me: Lou said that he wanted to get him to 100 pitches, but took him out at 85. He didn’t even follow his own pitch count.

      Carlos October 4, 2007, 11:37 am
    • Who knows what happens but this one feels like Lou gave it away. The move makes no sense whatsoever. Thats like pulling a pitcher in one round so he can be ready for the next round. You gotta win the game you are currently playing. They could have gone for 3 in a row and wouldnt need to start Zambrano again at all! nuts

      Sam-YF October 4, 2007, 11:44 am
    • His two year average in Boston is a pedestrian 115 ERA+ – funny enough that’s his career average too.
      Pitchers with career ERA+ of 115:
      Steve Carlton
      Ferguson Jenkins
      Phil Niekro
      Dennis Eckersley
      Jim Bunning
      Don Newcombe
      Luis Tiant
      Real pedestrian.

      Paul SF October 4, 2007, 11:45 am
    • Pete –
      you have your opinions of why everything about Beckett is terrible, and I have mine on why he’s one of the best aces in the league. You say “average” I say “excellent”. Perhaps our expectations of what an ace should be are different, or you just dislike him (and the front office) so much you can’t be objective and admit that Beckett is getting better every single day and is one of the best values in baseball.
      Whatever blows your hair back, I guess.

      Brad October 4, 2007, 11:47 am
    • Piniella said he was doing it to save Zambrano for Game 4, but like Sam says, that’s inane. Why would you pull a pitcher from a winnable game in favor of a game you may never even get to? Crazy.

      Paul SF October 4, 2007, 11:47 am
    • You guys are like hypersensitive high school kids.
      I said good not great but not to trade Jeter. If he keeps this up I’ll STFU. Problem is, his career arc says he’ll struggle again too.

      Pete October 4, 2007, 11:52 am
    • Mostly because he’s a hot-headed idiot, Paul. He is by far the most overrated manager in the game, and at times, appears to be going senile.

      Brad October 4, 2007, 11:55 am
    • *sigh* Here we go again.
      So the fact that he’s 27 and based on the careers of thousands of other pitchers would only be expected to improve over the next four years takes a back seat to his “career arc,” which includes an extreme outlier during his first eyar in a new, more heavily offensive league? Gotcha.

      Paul SF October 4, 2007, 11:56 am
    • Pete, I get the distinct feeling that you’re really hoping with all your might that the Red Sox fail to win it. This way, you can make your Jeter comparisons to Hanley Ramirez and analyze what idiots the FO are in your “told you so” speech to all of us.

      Brad October 4, 2007, 11:56 am
    • “Pete, I get the distinct feeling that you’re really hoping with all your might that the Red Sox fail to win it.”
      You are absolutely right, because he’s a Yankee fan. Think about everyone of his posts, really look at them, does he ever just talk about the Sox? NO. He goes into talking about how awful the trades are, how awful the front office is and on and on.
      I am not picking on you either Pete, you can come here and pretend to be whatever you’d like, that’s the beauty of the internet.

      John - YF (Trisk) October 4, 2007, 12:03 pm
    • “you can come here and pretend to be whatever you’d like, that’s the beauty of the internet.”
      and many a Fed has busted a pervert for that very reason!

      Ric October 4, 2007, 12:18 pm
    • Come on Ric…You know what I meant. Ugh!

      John - YF (Trisk) October 4, 2007, 12:18 pm
    • A new NBC special report from Chris Hansen: “To Catch a Yankee Fan”

      FenSheaParkway October 4, 2007, 12:20 pm
    • I don’t have any reference books handy, but I’m really curious as to which historical pitchers Beckett *should* be to satisfy the conditions under which the trade for him would be worthwhile. Walter Johnson? Bob Gibson? Are the conditions being set for him above attainable by anyone?
      And also how tall is the pedestal that Hanley Ramirez is being placed on?
      As for the game last night, I didn’t get to see but more than highlights, but I’m just happy to see Win #1. If I still lived in Boston, that game would have been the one included in my season package!

      FenSheaParkway October 4, 2007, 12:29 pm
    • Trisk- i know. just making joke. you americans like joke, no?

      Ric October 4, 2007, 12:36 pm
    • LOL of course Ric.

      John - YF (Trisk) October 4, 2007, 12:38 pm
    • Again, I simply counter the rampant homerism. I’ve never said Beck isn’t a good pitcher – just that we really haven’t seen a pticher overall that justified trading a Jeter. Last night we finally did. So I just try to hew closer to facts. The same guy who struggled last year is the same guy that shut out the Yankees in their home park in the clinching game of the World Series. We saw that guy last night. The problem is that he’s very inconsistent in-between, and no one, probably not even him, can tell me why. It’s easy to point to this year and claim he’s turned a corner, and I have no response to that. It’s only next year we’ll have an answer to that. For now, I’ll simply hope we see that guy again for a few more starts this October and if so, again, I’ll STFU.

      Pete October 4, 2007, 1:30 pm
    • FSP –
      Hanley was the second most valuable player in the game (based on VORP) behind only A-Rod and at the age of 23. He’s already a better hitter than Jeter. So position that pedestal however high you’d like.

      Pete October 4, 2007, 1:35 pm
    • Pete honestly is calling Beckett “good, not great” based on his historical stats?
      Last time I checked Cy Young winners (knock on wood) are better than “good”. And good call Trisk, Pete is far too anti-Front Office to not be a sheep in wolf’s clothing.

      Atheose October 4, 2007, 1:42 pm
    • Newsflash: sometimes pitcher not named Johan Santana are inconsistent and tend to have a few bad games here and there.
      Also, hitters go into slumps sometimes. Also, umps sometimes miss calls, or worse, make the wrong one. Also, front offices make mistakes sometimes, but it’s nice that this isn’t one of those times.

      Brad October 4, 2007, 1:53 pm
    • He’s “good” in the sense that Andy Pettitte is good. And no, I don’t use the CY as a marker of brilliance (see Bartolo Colon or even Mark Davis).
      Look, for Beck’s great season, he ranked in VORP, behind:
      1. Peavey
      2. Webb
      3. Sabathia
      4. Carmona
      5. Penny
      6. Lackey
      7. Oswalt
      8. Hudson
      9. Beckett
      So, even with that great season, he’s still outside the upper echleon. Last night he found that extra gear. Problem is, he’s found it before and he’s just not consistent with it. I know for me to ever be satisfied with the deal, he needs to stick right around there – in the post-season and each year. Then he really will have turned the corner. He’s good but not superstar great, at least not yet.

      Pete October 4, 2007, 1:54 pm
    • Yeah, and Johan was merely “good” this year – right behind Beck in VORP at #10. But he has a career ERA+ of 142 (with a 182 in 2004). The problem for your argument, Brad, is Johan’s down year is Beck’s best.

      Pete October 4, 2007, 1:58 pm
    • I once had a Karate teacher tell me that the goal is making the ideal consistent. And that seems to separate the truly great from those that find flashes of greatness. Great hitters and pitchers (and golfers and ballers) are inconsistent, but much less so than those who I’d call “good”.

      Pete October 4, 2007, 2:02 pm
    • By the way, the knocks on the front office are easy at this point. As Simmons said this week, they’re the “anti-Patriots”.

      Pete October 4, 2007, 2:05 pm
    • Ok, well if the Red Sox blow it all, you can come back and let us know how having Hanley Ramirez would have made it all different. Also, Johan’s down year is EVERYONES good year. But, it’s here nor there. We get it: Pete hates the Red Sox.

      Brad October 4, 2007, 2:08 pm
    • Oh, well we all know that Simmons is the final word, case closed. Go away Pete, unless you want to admit that you’re a Yankee fan and start over. Not only are you a Yankee fan, you’re an annoying Yankee fan.

      LocklandSF October 4, 2007, 2:16 pm
    • ha. ok, man. Shouldn’t you be getting all pumped up for the game over at LoHud right now instead of arguing with me how “good” Beckett is?
      I’ve noticed over the past couple weeks that posts from “Pete” at LoHuds threads normally happen at about the same time as “pete” from this site. Probably just a coincidence though.

      Brad October 4, 2007, 2:18 pm
    • Why Being a Red Sox Fan Sucks These Days
      The headline for the Boston Globe’s sports section today:
      “Almost Perfect
      The Red Sox took the first step toward fulfilling expectations as Josh Beckett fired a four-hit shutout in a statement-making,
      4-0 victory in Game 1 of their division series.”
      Really? We can’t just enjoy the fact that not only are we AL East Division Champions for the first time since 1995, not only are we enjoying a home baseball playoff game, but we are leading a series against a phenomenal baseball club? It’s just part of ‘fulfilling expectations’? Way to suck all the fun out of being a fan of a contending team.
      It’s basically come to a head for me these last few days. It’s at a point where I’m almost ashamed to be a Red Sox fan. There are so many ignorant bandwagon “fans” out there claiming to be “diehards” and parts of “Red Sox Nation” and all that junk. It just makes the rest of us who really are true fans look bad. I remember when getting to the playoffs was the victory in itself! How many Pittsburgh or Kansas City or even Milwaukee fans would kill right now to be in our shoes? And we can’t just enjoy it for what it is? It’s just part of fulfilling expectations? These so-called fans these days literally EXPECT to win a World Series now, and anything less is a huge disappointment.
      People here in Boston wonder why the rest of the country now hates us, and the answer is it’s things like this. I think I myself hate most Red Sox fans these days. So few people around here are remotely knowledgeable about the game or even the team itself, yet they run around bragging and boasting and dismissing other ballclubs and just generally making Red Sox fans the world over look bad. We really are the new Yankees.
      I guess I don’t have a point. I’m just frustrated and disappointed in my team, and wanted to apologize to the rest of baseball fans out there on behalf of the true Red Sox diehards who have been there since the beginning. Sorry.

      PatSF October 4, 2007, 2:25 pm
    • Guys, I’m kind of in agreement with Pete here. I mean think about how bad that trade is now.
      1. Beckett has NOT cured cancer.
      2. Beckett has NOT erased his transition year from the history books.
      3. Mike Lowell did NOT hit a HR or a 2B in every AB this season with RISP.
      4. Hanley Ramirez is NOT going to need to be moved to a less demanding defensive position, lowering his value.
      5. Anibal Sanchez’s arm was NOT shredded due to overuse by St. Girardi last season.
      I don’t know. Maybe my standards are like artificially, ridiculously high and I just like to stir up [censored] for no good reason.

      QuoSF October 4, 2007, 2:26 pm
    • Again, I simply counter the rampant homerism. … So I just try to hew closer to facts.
      This is classic misdirection, arrogance of a high order. “You disagree with me? Well, I’m just looking at it logically!” When people get mad, you can say: “Hey, I’m just stating an opinion! No need to get personal!” — when you’ve already gotten personal by once again referring to those who hold a different view “homers.” Bullcrap.
      You have said several times now that Beckett needs to be at or near the level he showed last night to be worth giving up Hanley Ramirez. So, basically, he needs to be Pedro Martinez circa 1999-2000 for the trade to be worth it. That will never happen. So let’s drop the facade of you saying the trade COULD be worth it, and say what you think: You think the trade is a failure for the Red Sox.
      But you can’t say that because you know how absurd it is. So you hold Beckett to these absurd standards, cherry-pick your stats to undervalue his accomplishments, and when he breaks through with his most valuable start as a member of the Red Sox, you use it as a weapon to show how “inconsistent” he is.
      It’s a fog of half-truths and distortions in the guise of logic, and frankly, I’m sick of it.

      Paul SF October 4, 2007, 2:30 pm
    • PatSF, I agree to a point. There is nothing I hate more than what the tag “Red Sox Fan” now carries with it. I can’t stand the crowd with over-zealous reaction to every move made, good or bad, by the front office (Drew), or the card-carrying morons who jumped on board in November of ’04. They’ve made it impossible to get into the park, and once they’re in, they talk on the freaking phone the whole time and yell nasty comments at the other team.
      I’m with you to a point.

      Brad October 4, 2007, 2:31 pm
    • Pat, the Red Sox have changed from when you were a kid. They’ve made the playoffs four of the last five years. When something occurs 80 percent of the time, it’s no longer “a victory” to accomplish it. That’s sad, sure, but it’s not an indictment of the fans. When your team makes the playoffs every year, it’s a legitimate expectation as a fan for that to happen again. It’s when you feel entitled to it that you become an arrogant jerk and people start hating you.
      This Red Sox team went into the season expecting to make the playoffs. They’re here. When you finish with the best record in baseball, presumably your goals are a little higher than just being here.

      Paul SF October 4, 2007, 2:34 pm
    • Paul, really though some of this new fan base is out of control. The whole “lets go Red Sox” craziness in other parks comes to mind first. Imagine you were a Baltimore fan when the Sox comes to town? I’d hate us too, I think.
      Being a fan doesn’t directly birth the right to be annoying and arrogant.
      But, I agree about expectations. With the money the Sox spend, and the talent on the team, my expectations are high every year; it’s a standard we held NY to for years when they spent so much, and it’s only right to hold it to ourselves as well now.

      Brad October 4, 2007, 2:37 pm
    • Josh Beckett + Mike Lowell > Hanley Ramirez
      Pete, the Sox could have held onto Hanley Ramirez. In the FA or trade market that existed in 2005/06, where would you find comparable production at 3rd base? Where would you find an ace-caliber starting pitcher? The Sox are in the playoffs in large part thanks to Beckett and Lowell.
      Knowing this front office’s reluctance to rush prospects into the organization, HRamirez would probably just be entering the Majors this year if the Sox had kept him. He had a down year in AA the year we traded him.
      You also have to account for the NL difference. If you threw HRam into Boston, maybe he’d put up similar numbers, but he could also be the second coming of Edgar Renteria. He makes a lot of errors, and there’s no guarantee he’d feast on AL pitching.

      Andrew F (Sox Fan) October 4, 2007, 2:43 pm
    • I kinda like the “Let’s go Red Sox” stuff in other parks. It’s annoying, but if the other team is selling out the park with their fans, the chants go nowhere.
      It’s the entitlement, the arrogance, the legions of people who couldn’t tell you one whit of Red Sox history beyond who Ted Williams was that bothers the heck outta me.

      Paul SF October 4, 2007, 2:47 pm
    • “I kinda like the “Let’s go Red Sox” stuff in other parks. It’s annoying, but if the other team is selling out the park with their fans, the chants go nowhere”
      So, it’s the other team’s fault that it happens? Please. t
      That chant is obnoxious and disrespectful in another team’s park. Period.

      Andrews October 4, 2007, 2:55 pm
    • My expectations are high every year too, but that doesn’t mean we can’t chill out and just enjoy the success the team is having. Yes, I expected to have a good season, and I would have been upset if we hadn’t won 90+ games, especially with the start we had.
      But expecting to dominate in the postseason is sketchy. I’ve seen enough postseasons to know that it’s more or less a crapshoot once you get here. I hope to do well, and I think we can do well, but I’m not “expecting” to win the WS. I would love to, of course, but I won’t be cursing out the FO for their idiocy if we don’t.

      Jackie (SF) October 4, 2007, 2:57 pm
    • “If he has four or five more starts in that range this post-season I will prompty STFU becuase that “ace” will have led his team to a World Championship”
      Pete, I wish the Yankees had more of the “problems” that you seem to feel your team does.
      For the record, Beckett was not only performing great last night – he literally looked like he owned the place. The sligthly cocky smirk on his face was something that, as an opposing batter, I would have loved to knock off it. Problem was, everyone was trying and it was impossible. Impressive. Disgustingly so for this yf but impossible to deny.
      And hindsight is useless I know, but I imagine some Sox would like to have picked the short series with that start – one in which their bullpen never even shifted in their seats and with the other team banged up and “puffy-eyed” (anderson). They probably can’t wait to get back on the field.

      IronHorse (yf) October 4, 2007, 2:59 pm
    • I’d have to stick my nose in for a moment. As a Yankee fan, I understand the reaction. I don’t live in NYC anymore and often run into people during the playoffs who are suddenly watching the games. They come in and ask me who is that playing second base, or where is Bernie Williams and all other manner of questions that keep my drink tab obscenely high.
      When your team reaches a standard (of excellence, competence, or regularity) you’ll have bandwagon jumpers who suddenly feel entitled to be considered a fan simply because they like winning. Its not necessarily about who got here first or who suffered through what; some of that sure, but mostly its “do you even know who you are rooting for?” Cause if you can’t pick out our youngsters out of the veterans, than you can’t claim to “live and die” with the team.
      The good news is that baseball is cyclical. The Red Sox will get old, both the team and the winning often, and it’ll be less of a “get.” The people who are honestly emotionally invested will stick around, some of them will even be new folks, and you’ll have a few years before mr. diehard pops back in to test the waters.

      Carlos October 4, 2007, 3:00 pm
    • That chant is obnoxious and disrespectful in another team’s park. Period.
      Where is it written that the fans of a team should not cheer and chant for their teams because of what park they happen to be in?
      I cannot afford to travel to Fenway, so I travel to Arlington or KC or wherever and cheer as hard as I can there because it’s the only time all season that I can. It has nothing to do with respect and disrespect and everything to do with loving the team (Andrews, I guess you feel the same way about “disrespect” when you hear “Let’s go Yankees” chants at Fenway?).
      Opposing-team chants are pretty easily drowned out by the home crowd. I’ve seen that done more often than I’ve seen “Let’s go Red Sox” carry a crowd.

      Paul SF October 4, 2007, 3:04 pm
    • But expecting to dominate in the postseason is sketchy. I’ve seen enough postseasons to know that it’s more or less a crapshoot once you get here.
      I think most honest fans will agree with the above statement. Baseball is a sport where getting a hit 30% of the time is considered impressive and another 10% more will make you transcendental. Its a sport where the good days and bad days balance themselves out to an “average.”
      All sports provide perspective, but baseball especially, year after year, teaches you that there wil be ups and downs and the worth of a team is best measured by its ability to handle the variances, not whether it won a particular game.
      Any fan who expects to win every year, that considers the playoffs a given, who expect aces to always deliver CG shutouts hasn’t watched enough baseball. If they did, they’ll realize that there are down years, that sometimes your best isn’t good enough and nothing can be counted on until its good and done.
      Maybe I’m being cynical but: Enjoy the highs and value them greatly, because the lows will soon appear.

      Carlos October 4, 2007, 3:07 pm
    • Carlos, well said, and please keep on commenting.

      Nick-YF October 4, 2007, 3:11 pm
    • Paul, there’s a difference between cheering for your team in another team’s park, which it goes without saying, is perfectly acceptable, and blasting the other team’s fans with constant “Let’s go Red Sox” or “Let’s go Yankees” chants. I cringe whenever I hear them – games this season in Tampa Bay and Baltimore stick out in my mind. If you put yourself in the home team fan’s place, those chants must really be awful. Kind of like pouring salt in a wound.

      Andrews October 4, 2007, 3:14 pm
    • If you think Carlos is wrong, turn on TBS or give your buddy the Mets fan a call. Baseball is an unpredictable sport, anything can happen. Average teams can get hot and above average teams can get cold. Thems the breaks of baseball in the fall.

      John - YF (Trisk) October 4, 2007, 3:17 pm
    • Carlos – I don’t think that’s cynical, just realistic. If the 84-win Cards can win a WS, anything can happen.

      Jackie (SF) October 4, 2007, 3:17 pm
    • I can definitely see how irritating it would be to be a home-team fan when that is going on, and viscerally I’m sure I’d hate the fans who were chanting, but logically I’d be pretty angry at, say, Peter Angelos for so destroying the franchise where that’s even possible. You’d never be able to get a chant for the opposing team going in Camden Yards before 2000.
      “Let’s go xxxxx” chants in other teams’ parks is a pretty old practice, though. Maybe not as common as today, but I remember hearing chants for the Sox at road games when i was a kid watching the games on TV38.

      Paul SF October 4, 2007, 3:19 pm
    • I always feel a little guilty about cheering vocally for the Sox when I se the play the A’s at the Coliseum, but what are the other options? Not root for my team (wouldn’t be much of a fan then, would I?) or fly 3,000 miles and pay $100 more for tickets to watch them play at Fenway?
      Besides, any team whose fans can get drowned out by fans of the opposing team probably needs the extra cash that Sox (or Yankees, or whatever) fans bring to the gate.

      Jackie (SF) October 4, 2007, 3:24 pm
    • It’s very simple, if you don’t want the visiting teams fans to cheer in your park, put some asses in the seats.
      Yes, it is the home team’s fault if you hear visiting fans chant.

      LocklandSF October 4, 2007, 3:28 pm
    • “Yes, it is the home team’s fault if you hear visiting fans chant.”
      Lockland, if at some point in the future, this happens to the sox, and you’re blated with nonstop thunderous “Let’s Go Rays” chants, will you say to yourself: “Damn the soxfor putting me through this”, or will you say: “What a bunch of assholes acting like Fenway is their home park”?
      I know I would choose option B.

      Andrews October 4, 2007, 3:38 pm
    • blated = blasted
      and, in my case, substitute Yankee stadium for Fenway, of course.

      Andrews October 4, 2007, 3:39 pm
    • When I go to Yankee Stadium for a Red Sox game (a rare occurrence) I hardly ever emote anything when the Sox score, do something big. Part of it may be fear (only a small part!), the other part is decorum. I have never felt comfortable standing up and making a spectacle of myself in a visiting ballpark. And that’s what happens: when your team’s supporters make up a fractional percentage of the crowd you can only be making yourself the center of attention with a loud celebration. I am all for supporting the team, but doing so with a vocal and attention-grabbing performance is, to me, self-promotion.

      SF October 4, 2007, 3:41 pm
    • Jackie, if you can find those 100$ seats, let me know! ha.

      Brad October 4, 2007, 3:42 pm
    • Jackie, if you can find those 100$ seats, let me know! ha.

      Brad October 4, 2007, 3:43 pm
    • sorry for the doubler.

      Brad October 4, 2007, 3:44 pm
    • I think that when one hears the opposing team’s fans chanting in one’s own stadium, the immediate reaction is to be angry at the fans chanting and not their own organization. But I also think the anger they are directing toward those opposing fans comes more from the situation their team is in than it does from any arrogance of those fans.
      I had a partial season ticket package to Camden Yards when I lived in DC since it was the only baseball in town (pre-Nats). This is probably the park that experiences the most of such behavior thanks to a. proximity to Boston and NY; and b. being in the same division so playing often.
      I know O’s fans detested the chants of Sox and Yanks fans. But the real culprit all along was Peter Angelos. And in calmer moments, away from the chanting, every O’s fans would and does admit it. They wouldn’t hate the Yanks and Sox fans nearly as much if they felt their ownership did not establish the conditions in which those fans perenially have so much more to cheer for.
      Translation for the least-knowledgeable-fan in case he visits this thread: The Orioles are a baseball team in Baltimore. Camden Yards is their stadium. Peter Angelos is their owner. The Nats are “the Nationals” – the team that plays in Washington, DC. And the “division” referred to is the American League East, one of six in major league baseball and the one in which Boston, Baltimore, and the Yankees all reside. Most of these conditions and facts occured before October 2004.

      IronHorse (yf) October 4, 2007, 3:57 pm
    • Brad – you really can’t get bleacher seats for less than $100 nowadays?!
      Usually when the Sox are in town we’ll splurge for dugout box seats (about $40 apiece) for one game and then get cheapo bleacher tickets (something like $8 or $10) for 1-2 other games. The best is when the games fall on Dollar Dog night… all the delicious nitrate-filled hot dogs you can eat for $1 apiece. Small markets have their upsides.

      Jackie (SF) October 4, 2007, 4:10 pm
    • IH, do not taunt the dynamite monkey!

      yankeemonkey October 4, 2007, 4:11 pm
    • yeah, you can get them, but it’s always some back alley meeting or ticket vendor somewhere. But, here’s the thing: When I drive all the way up there, pay for parking, dinner, and whatever else, I really don’t want to sit in the bleachers. After all the trouble to get in and out, I’d like to have a nice seat for the game, and those are normally not 100$, which sucks.

      Brad October 4, 2007, 4:19 pm
    • “You think the trade is a failure for the Red Sox.”
      I’ve said that the Sox traded Jeter for Pettitte and Brosious. If that’s a failure in your book, then so be it.
      “So you hold Beckett to these absurd standards, cherry-pick your stats to undervalue his accomplishments, and when he breaks through with his most valuable start as a member of the Red Sox, you use it as a weapon to show how “inconsistent” he is.”
      Dude has a 115 ERA+ in his career and in his time in red socks. Bettering that consistently is hardly an “absurd” standard. He finds again a higher plane (like 2003) and all of sudden he’s the second coming? I simply want him to be consistently great. Funny enough, I’ve gotten no arguments there.
      But really, keep calling me a YF, kids. I think it’s hilarious that’s the best insult to be slung around here. Hey Lockland and Brad – your momma’s a YF!

      Pete October 4, 2007, 4:23 pm
    • Uh, Pete, it was a YF who called you a YF.
      And no one disagrees that they want Beckett to be consistently great. You’re the only one who thinks Beckett didn’t achieve that this season.

      Paul SF October 4, 2007, 4:27 pm
    • At least she would have the balls to admit it.

      Brad October 4, 2007, 4:38 pm
    • Sorry, I stop reading when I see an insult. Seems like it was also repeated.
      How about Becks was “very good” this season (top ten in baseball) and downright “spectacular” last night? If he stays in that range for the rest of his time in red socks, I’ll have nothing to say. But my worry is he’s been there before and regressed (see again Pettitte, Andy). And while you can say he’s turned a corner, I’m just not there until I get more evidence. Meanwhile, Hanley is a top of his generation talent. And of course the two are completely linked in my mind.

      Pete October 4, 2007, 4:39 pm
    • Now that’s funny – Brad’s mom has balls. :)

      Pete October 4, 2007, 4:40 pm
    • Off to a great start already! This from Pete Abe.
      “Doug Mientkiewicz got off the team bus and was walking to the clubhouse when a camerman from YES stumbled and fell onto the back of his left leg.”
      “I rolled it pretty good,” he said. “I thought I was dead.” –DM
      “His ankle has some swelling but Mientkiewicz did some agility drills before the game and was cleared to play. He will be in the lineup as scheduled.” –Pete Abe

      John - YF (Trisk) October 4, 2007, 4:45 pm
    • I smell a conspiracy!! Someone check that cameraman’s ID to make sure he’s not one of the NoMass’ crew.

      yankeemonkey October 4, 2007, 4:47 pm
    • YM: They caught the cameraman and apparently he is not a NoMaas member. His name is apparently something Duncan…

      IronHorse (yf) October 4, 2007, 4:49 pm
    • Jerry Remy’s been taking his new position as RSN president a little too seriously…

      Paul SF October 4, 2007, 4:55 pm
    • Is that whole RSN President thing for real? I confess to thinking it was just a joke…

      yankeemonkey October 4, 2007, 5:04 pm
    • *sigh*, sadly it’s for real. I guess. I’m a part of Red Sox Nation, but I have no membership card and did not vote. I don’t consider that crap to be part of “true” RSN. It’s all so silly.

      Paul SF October 4, 2007, 5:11 pm
    • The whole RSN Membership thing is a sorry and embarassing ploy to bilk more money from the fanbase. Its just not enough anymore to be a solid, unwavering fan your entire life, now you need to pay for a card to show it. No thanks.
      There simply isn’t anything that can be said that takes away from Beckett’s masterpiece last night. Its a work of beauty.

      ToddSF October 4, 2007, 6:05 pm
    • “I’ve said that the Sox traded Jeter for Pettitte and Brosious. If that’s a failure in your book, then so be it.”
      Seriously, Lowell has been Brosius? Really? That’s just silly. Brosius’ best year ever, offensively, was 1998: .300, 19-98, dwarfed by Lowell this season. But the rest of his tenure was mid-teens in dingers, 60+ ribbies, and averages in the mid .200s (one at .287, the others at .237 and .247). Add in Lowell’s tremendous glove (as good or better than Brosius’) and, well, the comparison gets really weak.

      SF October 4, 2007, 6:07 pm
    • #1 Post-season pitching game score of all time? Anyone care to guess?

      Ben A October 5, 2007, 8:43 am
    • Hilarious, SF, that you’re bitching at the Lowell:Brosius comp especially since Lowell’s contribution to the trade ends this year. Still:
      Career RATE: 108
      First two years in Bos:
      2006: 112 RATE, 106 OPS+
      2007: 107 RATE, 128 OPS+
      Career RATE: 109
      First two years in NY
      1999: 110 RATE, 120 OPS+
      2000: 111 RATE, 90 OPS+
      Their gloves are exactly the same. Their bats, you got me, Lowell has the edge. But seriously, if you really wanted to ding me you could have pointed out that Hanley isn’t a great comp for Jeter cause he’s already better at the same age. Or that Pettitte was better at a younger age than Becks.

      Pete October 5, 2007, 4:47 pm

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