Here Comes Clay

So it’s official: Clay Buchholz is making his debut
tomorrow against the Angels. I’ll save the YF’s a bit of time and crack
that the clubhouse staff is busy locking up the electronics…

I debated whether or not I’d risk drawing the ire of Yankee Fans by
comparing Mr. Buchholz to Phil Franchise. I mean Hughes came into this
season with "Future" practically carved into his forehead and, though a
inconsistent, he’s done nothing to hurt his stock. But I figure such
comparisons are somewhat inevitable, especially next season when both
hurlers figure to start the year in the Show. And Since Hughes’ 2006
minor league season was so spectacular, it does seem like a fair
barometer to judge Buchholz against. I mean ’06 was Phil’s breakout
season, and 2007 has been Clay’s; I’m not doing this to judge which
will be the better pitcher, only to show how far Buchholz really
progressed this year. That, and Hughes threw just one fewer AA inning
in 2006 then Clay has so far in ’07, which means the samples are
basically the same size. (Phil started ’06 in A-ball, but it was clear
then that he didn’t belong there. He threw 30 innings, posting
predictably dominant numbers)

Phil Hughes, 2006
(AA): 21 GS, 116 IP, 72 H, 27 ER, 5 HR, 32 BB, 138 K. 10.71 K/9, 4.31 K/.BB, .179 BAA, .90 WHIP. 2.09 ERA

Clay Buchholz, 2007
(AA + AAA): 21 GS, 117 IP, 78 H, 28 ER, 9 HR, 30 BB, 164 K, 12.62 K/9, 5.47 K/BB, .187 BAA, .92 WHIP, 2.15 ERA

There isn’t a whole lot to say here; the numbers sort of speak for
themselves. Buchholz’s ’07 performance has been at least as remarkable
as Hughes’ brilliant 2006. Granted, Phil’s a full two years younger,
which is significant; given the choice between the two, I’d still
rather have him on my team. More impressive, and this is something I
didn’t mention above, is Hughes’ GO/FO ratio, which was well above 1.5
in the minors. (Clay’s is just over 1)

That said, Buchholz is pretty good, too. No matter what happens,
this is probably a one-start deal, though it’s possible Buchholz makes
an appearance in the bullpen down the stretch. So it is less of an
event then Phil’s debut against Toronto. But still, how cool is it to
see so many of our prospects coming into their own this season? Pedroia
and Buchholz, with Ellsbury on the horizon; Phil and Joba, and in a
way, Melky. It’s been fun.

94 comments… add one
  • Man do I absolutely love strike out pitchers. This probably explains my love for Beckett and hatred for Wang and Westbrook.

    Brad August 16, 2007, 2:37 pm
  • Then you’ll love Joba! ;)

    Lar August 16, 2007, 2:41 pm
  • I do.
    Well, minus the whole Nebraska thing.

    Brad August 16, 2007, 2:43 pm
  • “how cool is it to see so many of our prospects coming into their own this season? Pedroia and Buchholz, with Ellsbury on the horizon; Phil and Joba, and in a way, Melky.”
    I love this. Melky still gets no respect. He’s putting up better numbers in the majors than Ellsbury is at AAA, and is a full year younger. But because there was no hype around him, his performance is somehow less impressive, or less inidcative of future success.
    I should make clear I’m not trying to rip you at all, Josh (or even suggesting I would 100% take Melky’s career over Jacoby’s). Just noticing how common it still is when discussing young players to ignore the results in favor of more subjective evaluations.

    Amsterdam YF August 16, 2007, 2:57 pm
  • I also apologize for hijacking the thread over a minor point. SFs, please get back to raving about Buchholz.

    Amsterdam YF August 16, 2007, 3:00 pm
  • Now you guys toss in Ellsbury with Melky? You’ve got to be kidding, right? Ellsbury is a year older than Melky yet is putting up a .738 OPS in AAA (294 AB). If anything, Ellsbury is showing himself as a fringe prospect (unless you want to pick and choose which numbers to look at – like Paul).
    Buchholz = legit
    Masterson too.
    Pedroia – has to keep it up next year. If his AVG drops (and his BABIP suggests it will), he’s nothing special.

    Woosta YF August 16, 2007, 3:05 pm
  • Wouldn’t it be awesome if Phil and Buchholz faced off in one of the upcoming NYY-BOS series? What a treat that would be…

    yankeemonkey August 16, 2007, 3:06 pm
  • I expect Buchholz vs. Hughes comparisons are something we’re going to be watching for years around these parts, and it’s a welcome addition to the rivalry. Perhaps this will be a later-day Nomar-vs-Derek meme. The future is bright—for them and for us.

    YF August 16, 2007, 3:07 pm
  • (later this season I mean, obviously we’ll be seeing that matchup for years to come)

    yankeemonkey August 16, 2007, 3:09 pm
  • Amsterdam –
    We must have know this was coming. In my lifetime, I’ve seen at least these comps:
    Boggs – Mattingly
    Nixon – O’Neill
    Nomah – Jeter
    Varitek – Jorge
    Papelbon – Mo
    Now it’s:
    Pedroia – Cano
    Ellsbury (!?) – Melky
    Buchholz – Hughes

    Suffice it to say, only Boggs comes out on top. But subjectivity can make them all look so much closer! What fun would it be as a SF otherwise, if they weren’t always worried about how their players measure up?

    Woosta YF August 16, 2007, 3:11 pm
  • First off, I’ve always thought Melky was going to shine, given 1/2 the chance, and I’m a Sox fan. Cashman deserves much Kudos for pocketing him and not selling off his young talent for a quick fix. Looks like he finally got GS to listen.
    That being said, NY has had a great deal of success with their call-ups this year, accounting for a hell of a run at the Division, let alone the WC.
    I’m guessing that Buchholz’s August time will be pretty insignificant, even if he tosses a gem, given Boston’s sweaty palms over Kielty and imminent departure of Pena, the human windmill. Typically, these things result in much hype and much disappointment. Recall Clay Meredith and Craig Hansen hype.

    MAG August 16, 2007, 3:12 pm
  • And since it’s almost a footnote in Josh’s post, FYI:
    Hughes turns 23 in 2009 (Buchholz’s age now).

    Woosta YF August 16, 2007, 3:16 pm
  • Never had the privilege of seeing Clay pitch and until now had no idea how similar his numbers are to Hughes.
    Does anyone know what he throws? What his fastball tops out at? I really don’t know a whole lot about him.

    John - YF (Trisk) August 16, 2007, 3:38 pm
  • i don’t get the electronics joke.
    what did i miss?

    Yankee Fan In Boston August 16, 2007, 3:49 pm
  • I saw Buchholz pitch earlier this year in Pawtucket against Louisville. That day his fastball topped out at 94, but it was his 4th-best pitch. His slider, curveball, and especially his changeup had the hitters badly off-balance. I think he had 10 K’s that day.

    academic-SF August 16, 2007, 4:00 pm
  • Speaking of call-ups, it appears our once-was, Gabbard has been out with a sore pitching arm for TX. He’s already had two or three surgeries. Looks like we MAY have lucked out in that deal.

    MAG August 16, 2007, 4:05 pm
  • Clay stole a bunch of computers once, in college I think, that’s the electronics joke.

    LocklandSF August 16, 2007, 4:12 pm
  • Woosta, is it possible for you to comment without being such a prick about it?
    Jesus guy, quit making the Yankee fan stereotype to justified.

    LocklandSF August 16, 2007, 4:13 pm
  • I’m not Woosta, Lockland, but the answer is no.

    QuoSF August 16, 2007, 4:17 pm
  • oh.
    thanks, lockland.
    i was hoping for a better story than that, but oh well.

    Yankee Fan In Boston August 16, 2007, 4:23 pm
  • Don’t you guys know anything. Pedroia needs to reproduce next year to be considered legit, but Melky does not. Hughes is awesomely better because he won’t be 23 until 2009. Apparently, there is a huge difference between 21 and 23 year old pitchers. There is: when they’re 33 and 35, and even then, maybe. Ellsbury is freaking garbage with his tiny-garbage stats this year, but Shelly Duncan is the reborn Big Hurt, while there is absolutely nothing in the Sox system that can compare to anything in the Yankee one.
    Get with it, and smarten up. The younger, and even old man Clay, prospects are nothing to contend with ever.
    I hate this team.

    Brad August 16, 2007, 4:24 pm
  • I just don’t get it, I realize it shouldn’t bother me so much, I should just ignore him, but when you read the rest of the comments on every thread here and see that 99% of the time we are all friendly and pleasant with each other, no matter which team we root for, I just don’t get how a person would decided to be such an arrogant, loudmouth, ass.
    It’s just not how the rest of the community here behaves and it really makes me curious.

    LocklandSF August 16, 2007, 4:25 pm
  • Also, Papelbon is worlds better than Mariano right now, Woosta. If you don’t think so, you’re the only one.

    Brad August 16, 2007, 4:26 pm
  • Moving on…
    I’m fired up to see Buchholz pitch, I saw him in Portland and it was like a college kid pitching to elementary school kids, just totally unfair for the most part.

    LocklandSF August 16, 2007, 4:28 pm
  • Yes, to put it more delicately, Woosta, I think we’d love to keep the analysis but see a little less attitude. As it is, I think your comparison chart isn’t particularly revealing:
    Boggs – Mattingly
    Nixon – O’Neill
    Nomah – Jeter
    Varitek – Jorge
    Papelbon – Mo
    So you favor all the Yanks here except Boggs? Fine, except that’s so un-nuanced an analysis it’s basically useless. Boggs vs. Mattingly? I think there were years in which Mattingly was, in fact superior. Ditto Nomah. Papelbon can hardly be compared to Mo, given his 1.5 years of ML experience. And If there was ever a Nixon-vs-O’Neill debate on this site, I don’t recall seeing it.
    So let’s just try to keep things in perspective. We’re all baseball fans.

    YF August 16, 2007, 4:28 pm
  • Re: age difference, isn’t there some reason why Buchholz has a lot less mileage on his arm than most pitchers his age?
    And as far as Brad’s comment about K pitchers, did you (or anyone) see Fausto Carmona’s dismantling of the Tigers last night? Nasty sinker AND a decent K-rate? This guy could be something in the long-term.
    Woosta: Funny you mention Pedroia’s BABIP, because Melky’s BABIP during his pretty ridiculous July was .400. And of course, BABIP doesn’t always normalize to the average: guys like Manny and Jeter have always had high BABIPs.

    QuoSF August 16, 2007, 4:29 pm
  • i’m really excited to see buchholz pitch, too, lockland. i’ve been hearing so much about this kid. i just hope i can watch his start on

    Yankee Fan In Boston August 16, 2007, 4:32 pm
  • Carmona abused the Yanks in preseason; you could see even then that he was going to be murder if he could keep things together. He has and he is.

    YF August 16, 2007, 4:35 pm
  • I think you might be out of luck YFiB, even the proxy trick doesn’t work any more, because they now use the credit card address you used when you signed up for as well as your IP.
    I’m on my way to a wedding in Newport for the weekend tomorrow and I just informed the lady, in no uncertain terms, that we will be down there before 1pm tomorrow.

    LocklandSF August 16, 2007, 4:36 pm
  • awesome.

    Brad August 16, 2007, 4:38 pm
  • Did my post remove itself?

    Brad August 16, 2007, 4:39 pm
  • I just thought that my having a wedding in Newport got you really excited for some reason. :-)

    LocklandSF August 16, 2007, 4:42 pm
  • A bit too aggressive, Brad. Let’s all get back to the subject at hand. Or some subject at hand. Newport in August? Lovely.

    YF August 16, 2007, 4:47 pm
  • No, I said some less than flattering things towards Woosta because I’m sick of him trying to shat on everything Red Sox, every single day, and I used the old “count the Ringzz” slur to describe what kind of fan he is, or at least what kind he acts like sometimes. I guess I either need to keep my mouth shut, or put a sweet “yf” behind my screnname. Maybe the filter caught it. I dunno.

    Brad August 16, 2007, 4:47 pm
  • Agreed. No better place than the RI/CT/MA shoreline this time of year. Maine is too cold at night late in the fall.

    Brad August 16, 2007, 4:49 pm
  • HAHA, YF, that was funny, yes, lovely.
    In other news, there are 16 teams that still have a decent shot at their division, 18 within 7 games of a their division or the wild card.
    Nuts, exciting stuff.

    LocklandSF August 16, 2007, 4:52 pm
  • that phrase is banned from these parts, brad. but rest assured you need no yf surname here–though if you’d like to change allegiances feel free–we love you just the way you are. just keep it clean(er).

    YF August 16, 2007, 4:56 pm
  • A batter’s BABIP can be controlled, while it is “luck” for a pitcher. Let’s get the sabrmetrics correctly.

    Lar August 16, 2007, 5:01 pm
  • I can’t believe you compared Bucholz to Phil Franchise. I mean, I don’t even compare Nolan Ryan or Cy young to Phil Franchise. When the Boogey Man goes to sleep at night, he checks under his bed for Phil Franchise.
    All kidding aside, the numbers look pretty comparable. Where does he fit in the ’08 rotation? Schilling’s spot?

    yankees76 August 16, 2007, 5:02 pm
  • My grammar is horrible today. Let’s get the grammar correct!

    Lar August 16, 2007, 5:03 pm
  • I love this. Melky still gets no respect. He’s putting up better numbers in the majors than Ellsbury is at AAA, and is a full year younger.
    Hmmm aside from home runs, exactly how is Melky putting up better numbers?
    Ellsbury isnt a home run hitter and you don’t need to be to be a great player.
    Melky Cabrera: .297 in 394 at bats, 54 runs, 20 doubles, 7 triples, 8 homers, 10 steals, .350 OBP and .794 OPS
    Jacoby Ellsbury: .323 in 381 at bats, 72 runs, 23 doubles, 7 triples and 1 homer, 48 steals .392 OBP and .819 OPS
    I just don’t see how Melky is having better numbers then Ellsbury………

    TJ August 16, 2007, 5:05 pm
  • Lets hope Buchholz fits into Schilling’s spot, come ’08. I doubt seriously that Boston will bring Curt back, despite the “bargain” price of $13m. Of course, Santana would fit nicely into that vacancy, too. Dreaming, of course.

    MAG August 16, 2007, 5:05 pm
  • Um…Melky’s playing in the major leagues?

    MAG August 16, 2007, 5:06 pm
  • my guess ’08 lines up like this
    Josh Beckett
    Daisuke Matsuzaka
    Jon Lester
    Tim Wakefield
    Clay Buchholz
    Of course we could go through the whole Jon Papelbon will start thing again which could bump Wakefield from the rotation….

    TJ August 16, 2007, 5:07 pm
  • Man, when you see the rotation on paper, it almost seems Boston has to sign a veteran starter. Too many ?’s and no one in the midst in case of injury. Hopefully, they’re done with the Tavarez experiment.

    MAG August 16, 2007, 5:11 pm
  • I’d say so yankees76. Even if Curt turns around and puts up stelalr numbers the rest of the season I don’t see the Red Sox dropping money on the aging ace. I would expect to spend significant time on the DL again enxt season and with Buchholz waitng and far younger.. why not?
    Ellsbury a ‘fringe prospect’? Bull. Great speed and he gets on base. He’s still learning too. He his not a high OPS type hitter, really. He’s not power. He hits alot of singles from my understanding and can steal anything. Literally. He just stole my F10 key from my keyboard. I didn’t even see him thats how fast he is, but he left a note.
    ooooh.. imagina a fantasy world where you have Jose Reyes at short and Ellsbruy in center. To paraphrase Red Vs Blue “you could steal the whole god damn world with that thing”

    Dionysus August 16, 2007, 5:11 pm
  • well they have Snyder who can start, if someone went down early and they were desperate they could move Papelbon back to the rotation, plus they have a slew of guys in the minors who can start such as Abe ALvarez, Devern Hansack, David Pauley along with Michael Bowden and Justin Masterson. PLus I could see them signing Matt Clement to a 1 year incentive filled contract. HE sohould be ready to go next month and hes not gonna get money anywhere and if Boston can get him for cheap they could use him as a long man in the bullpen and a emergency starter… after all he was good before the injuries for Boston.

    TJ August 16, 2007, 5:15 pm
  • “Jacoby Ellsbury: .323 in 381 at bats, 72 runs, 23 doubles, 7 triples and 1 homer, 48 steals .392 OBP and .819 OPS”
    I said at AAA (.292/.361/.377). You really want to get all hot and bothered over 72 great ABs from a 23 year old in AA?
    “Um…Melky’s playing in the major leagues?”
    That too.

    Amsterdam YF August 16, 2007, 5:15 pm
  • I wonder if Youk will challenge Ellsbury to a race in Spring Training lol

    TJ August 16, 2007, 5:16 pm
  • As for TJ’s proposed 08 rotation I would point out that Johan Santana could end up replacing Buchholz or Lester (since one of them alogn wiht a lot else would be traded for him)
    Santana has been criticizing Minnesota’s management’s desire to win and state how he’s not sure he belongs. He’s a Free Agent after the 08 season and these statements indicate the Twins wont be able to resign him. Certainly not at the hometown discount they’d need to afford him. So they can get nothing for him after 08 or trade him this offseason. I expect him to be traded.. and it will be a War that made the A-Rod battle look like a elemntary school nerf game.

    Dionysus August 16, 2007, 5:16 pm
  • Changing gears a bit (but not much), it’s really exciting to see conveyor belts of young talent making its way up to the majors for all of us these days, but here’s a question:
    In your opinion, what causes more excitement/anticipation/anxiety, a hot new prospect coming up, or debuting a hot new free agent/trade? The prospect stirs our natural inclination towards hope, mystery, etc., while the more veteran player figures more highly in short-term visions of grandeur (usually).
    Sorry if this is too off-topic. Consider it a distraction from the above unpleasantness.

    FenSheaParkway August 16, 2007, 5:16 pm
  • I think we need to get one more big FA starter in the off season, lots of question marks and the injury risks scare the crap out of me.

    LocklandSF August 16, 2007, 5:18 pm
  • I really dont see the Papelbon in the Rotation issue coming up again. He wants to close. He loves it, it seems. Gagme isnt cuttign the mustard (I swear to God if the Yankees somehow win the division by two games or less, I’ll blame Gagne.

    Dionysus August 16, 2007, 5:19 pm
  • Boston isnt going to give up what it would take to get Santana in a trade when he will be a FA after the 08 season.
    My guess is any deal for Santana would have to include Buchholz, Ellsbury and Delcarmen….

    TJ August 16, 2007, 5:20 pm
  • I ge tmore excited for the Prospects FSP. When we aquired Gagne (before he turned out to be trash) I felt little.
    Mention Ellsbury’s name? Or Bucholz’s? I start bouncing in my chair.

    Dionysus August 16, 2007, 5:20 pm
  • I agree Papelbon going back to the rotation is a long shot, but I wouldnt rule it out.

    TJ August 16, 2007, 5:21 pm
  • Sorry, FA or trade, I don’t care which.

    LocklandSF August 16, 2007, 5:21 pm
  • They will TJ if it looks liek the Yankees are goign to get him if they dont.
    Note: I’m assuming that any trade comes with a garunteed contract extension.

    Dionysus August 16, 2007, 5:21 pm
  • Lets look at TJ’s trade.
    Ellsbury, Delcarmen, and Buchholz for Santana w/ extension
    Well, we already have Coco.. who if he can keep showing up liek the Coco we though we were getting originally will make the Ellsbruy loss a little less painful. We could also TRY to insert Coco into the deal in Ellsbury’s stead. Either way.
    Delcarmens loss would sting. He’s still rough aroudn the edges but has come lightyears since last year. Lots of talent. Assumign Gagne doesnt.. well.. suck and we can extend him, we’ll have a trio of Papelbon, Okajima and Gange in the pen. Add Snyder, Lopez, perhaps Clement and then aquire an FA to replace TImlin and you should be pretty good.
    Santana effectively replaces Buchholz and then some. As good as Bucholz MAY be, we can’t be sure he WILL be that good. Santana is pretty much a sure thign and is still youn.

    Dionysus August 16, 2007, 5:26 pm
  • Don’t matter cause I dont see Santana passing up an open market. Hes going to suck every last penny outta someone.

    TJ August 16, 2007, 5:32 pm
  • I’ll also say this. I don’t liek the way the match ups are set up tommorrow. Sure putting Buchholz up against a starter not named Lackey is good for him.. adn the Lackey/Beckett matchup will be fun to watch, I don’t liek it from a tactical match up.
    As it stands Clay Bucholz/NotJohan Santana is a toss up. It all depends on if Clay tunrs out to be ready and effective. Dont expect run support as he’ll probably be supported by the ‘B’ team.
    That leaves Lackey/Beckett in the Battle For 16 Wins. Wonderufl matchup for television. However it is also a REAL toss up. Lackey has been a better pitcher than Beckett this season by the numbers. The Red Sox, with how theyve been lately wil struggle puttign up runs against Lackey.
    This beens there is and even chance of us getting swept in the double-header. Two toss-ups could easily be two losses (or two wins though.. but more liekly two losses than two wins)
    Now if you switch it around you have Beckett vs NotJohan. Now this (should be) notched up as a W for the Sox. Of couse, last night taught us that the numbers aren’t always right. Still, its liekly Josh gets #16.
    Then you have Lackey/Buchholz. Again, its antirely dependant on Buchholz’s ability comign through. He could end up matchign Lackey pitch for pitch. However, its in favor of Lackey.
    So here we have a Split with a Hail mary chance of a Sweep in our favor.
    I’d rather take the surer split in this math.

    Dionysus August 16, 2007, 5:38 pm
  • Also I just realized Wake will miss the series at Tampa Bay afte rthe Angels on. I have to say, if I were Terry I let Wake pitch on short rest (he’s a knuckleballer he can do it) in the third game. He’s jsut too damn good in that dome to pass up.

    Dionysus August 16, 2007, 5:41 pm
  • The reason Buchholz is pitching the first game is so they can use his roster spot for the second… If he pictehd the second then you need to wait another game to use the spot for Ellsbury.

    TJ August 16, 2007, 5:46 pm
  • Ahh.. I see.
    That could be worth it. I’d rather have the W. It just seems os much more in our favor. But Im nto a Manager. Im sure they know what they are doing…
    I hope. I pray.

    Dionysus August 16, 2007, 5:47 pm
  • Wake is 18-2 career vs Tampa, hard to pass that up I agree.

    TJ August 16, 2007, 5:48 pm
  • You could have have Tavarez (gulp) start Wakes game agaisnt the Angels which would push Wakey into game 1 against the Rays.
    Again Wake in the Angels game is only slightly less iffy than Tavarez vs Angels, but Wake vs Rayss-Plus-Dome is a garunteed frakin Win.

    Dionysus August 16, 2007, 5:52 pm
  • I heard some place Wake is 45-2 against Tampa… :-)
    “Dont expect run support as he’ll probably be supported by the ‘B’ team.”
    Well, the meat of our order just went 1 for 600 the last few days, so maybe that’s not a bad thing.

    LocklandSF August 16, 2007, 5:54 pm
  • According to these are the pitching matchups this weekend. Seems Lackey is pitching the early game and the Sox havent set Wakefield as the Sunday starter yet.
    Friday–Day (1:05 p.m.) RHP John Lackey (15-7, 3.07) vs. RHP Clay Buchholz
    Friday–Night (7:05 p.m.) RHP Ervin Santana (5-11, 6.22) vs. RHP Josh Beckett (15-5, 3.24)
    Saturday (7:05 p.m.) RHP Jered Weaver (8-5, 3.85) vs. RHP Curt Schilling (6-5, 4.06)
    Sunday (2:05 p.m.) LHP Joe Saunders (6-1, 3.50) vs. TBA

    TJ August 16, 2007, 6:07 pm
  • YF –
    Answer this for me: Why is that SF’s can’t just be happy with the players they have, rather than compare them to the players they don’t have?
    It’s driven me crazy ever since I was a kid in Woosta and had to hear all the Boggs to Mattingly comps.
    Frankly, I’ve never given two shits about such things. But it’s just dumb really, and it just continues year after year after year. That’s why this post got my goat. There’s no reason to compare Buchholz with Hughes (and bury the fact that the latter is two years ahead). If a SF wants to behold Clay, have fun with it. He should be a fine major league starter.
    But as soon as they start drawing silly comps (and Ellsbury to Melky is the most absurd), they’re fair game in my opinion. Worse is when they start squinting and slicing the stats to justify their argument. And we’ve seen all that not only in the post but throughout this thread. To me, it just shows SF’s are the same as they ever were. Have fun with that.

    Woosta YF August 16, 2007, 6:14 pm
  • And YF –
    To address your point, every one of those comps I’ve heard in my lifetime. And every one, save Boggs, by far came out favoring the Yanks. You’d think SF’s would have at least learned that by now. Instead we get Ellsbury grouped with Melky (and folks supporting it based on AA numbers). My god…

    Woosta YF August 16, 2007, 6:18 pm
  • has the matchups Bucholz vs Santana and Lackey vs Beckett, TJ. Weird. I dont know who or what to beleive.

    Dionysus August 16, 2007, 6:24 pm
  • No one’s saying Ellsbury is better than Melky, he’s just the parallel they used. Hughes and Joba vs. Buchholz, Pedroia and Ellsbury vs. Melky. He only said ‘in a way’ because Melky is not technically a rookie this year. That’s all.
    Please let’s not get into a pissing contest over who’s better right at the beginning of their careers. It only leads to bitterness and frustration. Of course Yankee fans will prefer their prospects and Sox fans will prefer theirs. Personally, I think it’s obvious that at this point in time, Hughes > Buck, Cano > Pedroia, Melky > Ellsbury, and Joba >>>>> everything. Just don’t get your back up over Sox fans daring to use young Yankees as a parallel to their young Sox like you’ve been personally insulted. It leads to no good things.

    AndrewYF August 16, 2007, 6:32 pm
  • Woosta,
    come on, isn’t comparing players part of the fun?
    And can you honestly say you’ve heard the Papelbon – Mo comparison in a serious argument? Not here, if I remember correctly. SF’s may have expressed the hope that Paps would prove himself as a longtime closer for the team and thus gain a similar stature to Mo in the long run, but that’s not saying that they are comparable right now or that he will ever put up better numbers than Mo. As has been pointed out in this thread, careerwise there’s no comparison since Papelbon is only in his second season as a closer.
    If you want to compare them at this moment and take the last ten days as your sample, then of course Paps does not compare so badly …
    Oh, and weren’t the Jeter – Nomar comparisons legit in the years after they’d come up? I don’t think nowadays you’ll find any SF’s who’d not admit that Jeter has come out on top careerwise (of course he not only still plays short stop but also has the rings and the gold gloves). And you’re perfectly entitled to say you expected that right from the beginning. But that does not invalidate the comparisons.

    pale blue eyes August 16, 2007, 6:43 pm
  • Nomar was actually superior to Jeter a couple of years there. But there were some years where Jeter beat him out too. For the time that Nomar was with the Sox and healthy, it was a pretty fair competition over who was better. Of course, Jeter won out due to health and longevity, but it didn’t make the arguments invalid. Same with Boggs/Mattingly, and right now the same with Papelbon/Rivera, and perhaps next year Buchholz and Hughes. Although depending on how things work out, it could be between Joba and Buchholz too, because Hughes transcended to a higher plane of existence.

    AndrewYF August 16, 2007, 6:48 pm
  • The Paps-Mo comparisons are kind of silly though, since (presumably) Paps hasn’t peaked yet, and Mo is probably winding down. They totally didn’t play in the same era.
    It’s unfair to Paps in either case.. it’s like comparing Hughes to Clemens on merit rather than projection. Eh.

    Lar August 16, 2007, 7:09 pm
  • Maybe this is my fault for being a tad unclear…or maybe certain YF’s here are a little unnecessarily agressive. I only mentioned Melky as a sign of respect. As in, he emerged as a legitimately talented starter and not just a fourth outfielder, essentially taking Damon’s job. I still don’t think he’s as good as he’s been the last month or two this season, but he’s pretty much shut me up. Which is why I said “in a way,” instead of simply listing him among the other prospects who’ve made an appearance in the majors this season. It was a f*cking compliment, which I apparently should have explained better.
    I do know I made clear why I was comparing the two pitchers: Their numbers were remarkably similar. I didn’t bury their ages–since when is the first paragraph after the break buried?–and the only reason I used Phil’s stats was because his 2006 has been widely lauded by SF’s and YF’s alike. I even more or less conceded that Phil had the brighter future, given his age. He’s the one we’re all familiar with already, and as I said, his 2006 was fantastic enough that why shouldn’t it be considered something of a measure? And their AA teams were in the same league. I was trying to give the numbers some context by comparing them to something we already know; I guess I could have looked up Gallardo, Bailey, Hamels, or some other young pitcher instead of Hughes…but why?
    “Re: age difference, isn’t there some reason why Buchholz has a lot less mileage on his arm than most pitchers his age?”
    Yeah, I’m pretty sure he started pitching a few years late, or that he was a position player in or before college. Something like that. I remember reading it, but I still can’t find it anywhere.

    Josh SF (D1) August 17, 2007, 1:13 am
  • I love when a SF gets called out they get all self-righteous and their brethren support them with needless ad hominen to obscure the original criticism. What is this, Fox News?
    Josh –
    The point: Buchholz’s numbers are so good you don’t have to compare him to anyone. They stand on their own (just as Hughes did last year). Indeed, if you had left it at that, I would have had nothing to say. Buchholz is a legit stud (apart from being 23 years old and hitting AAA for the first time).
    Throwing that comp out there is one thing. But to include Ellsbury? What’s a 23 year old with a .738 OPS in AAA have to do with anything. That’s going way beyond blood-colored glasses. Indeed, it reads like the only reason you brought Melky up is to lump Ellsbury in to that discussion. Problem is, right now, he’s nowhere near that discussion. He might never be or it might take another year or two. But he doesn’t belong there right now.

    Woosta YF August 17, 2007, 7:13 am
  • Isn’t that what this site is all about: feeding the rivalry? Comparing Buchholz to Hughes makes things interesting. Any Red Sox blog can go on and on about Clay’s numbers, but comparing him to the Yanks’ equivalent prospect shakes things up a little bit.
    I think you’re taking the whole “comparing players” thing a little too personally, Woosta. It’s all in good fun, and you’re acting like someone is insulting your mom.

    Atheose August 17, 2007, 7:30 am
  • Ok, I am back, at least for the day. I bought myself a get-out-of-jail-free card here:
    This indignance about comparing Red Sox players to Yankees players is absurd: this is a RIVALRY site, and the discussion tends to involve comparative discussions about the, uh, rivalry. Josh said almost nothing controversial here; he qualified Buchholz’ age quite clearly (it wasn’t a “footnote” — footnotes are broken out of the body of text and require an additional effort by the reader to consume, whereas Josh put the age differential in the body of the text), and the whole Melky comparison outrage is just kind of stupid: seems to me that Josh qualifies Cabrera here because he’s not really a prospect anymore and now a bona fide major league player. If anything, Josh was more than highly respectful of the Yankees’ prospects — you could surf the web and find many fans who are blinded by their allegiances, and Josh clearly isn’t one of them. Seems like you wanted to rip Josh no matter what he wrote, Woosta.
    As for Buchholz’ innings restriction, I believe it’s because he’s a converted infielder, and only began pitching two or thee seasons ago. That makes his ascendance all the more remarkable. I hope to see the game today (I have quite low expectations – rookie hurlers, however touted, rarely come in and blow good teams like the Angels away). I have the afternoon off from work and as long as the little ones nap on schedule I’ll be watching, if not blogging.

    SF August 17, 2007, 8:09 am
  • If you all read my other posts, you’d get my point.
    1) I’ve heard these comps all my life.
    2) They rarely come out favoring the Sox, and yet SF’s continue to make them (much moreso than YF’s). The question is: Why?
    3) I had less of a problem with Buchholz to Hughes (except for the age difference) than Ellsbury somehow grouped with Melky.
    Meanwhile, I’ve been very fair to the legit Sox prospects (Buchholz and Masterson – though the latter got lit up by Trenton last night) – indeed, fairer than any treatment I’ve received from SF’s here. People get their panties in a bunch but can’t call out the other posters with nothing to add other than ad hominen. No wonder this site is biased against YF’s.

    Woosta YF August 17, 2007, 8:43 am
  • SF –
    Notice how I said “since it’s almost a footnote”? The ages belong right next to the year in listing the stats (like every stats book or website does it) – not buried in the text as an aside. It’s not a tangent (Granted…) – it’s central to the very stats being touted.
    And does that mean your week of bailing starts fresh tomorrow :)

    Woosta YF August 17, 2007, 8:52 am
  • Woosta you can’t let what happened to you in the past get you all fired up here. Most, if not all, people on this site are rational and come here to discuss baseball as so. Sometimes in the heat of the moment all of us will make a blanket statement, but overall this is a great place to just discuss a heated rivalry.
    Finally, who cares who thinks Mattingly is better then Mo Vaughn, etc…You are a fan of the Yankees, that’s all that matters. If someone was persuasive enough to get you to believe that Mo Vaughn was better then Mattingly are you going to stop liking him or the Yankees, no. It’s just banter my friend, relax.

    John - YF (Trisk) August 17, 2007, 9:39 am
  • “No wonder this site is biased against YF’s.”
    haha- go write a letter condemning ESPN of something, you dink.
    time to make the donuts.

    Ric August 17, 2007, 9:54 am
  • John –
    You do realize the post is exclusively about such comparisons, right? Right?
    And I’m chillin’ like a villian – Vermont’s finest, thanks. SF’s fans, however, have their thongs in their bunghole. Witness this entire thread.

    Woosta YF August 17, 2007, 10:07 am
  • I disagree Woosta, you took it to that level. I think they were comapring players, you brought it to the who’s better level, that’s my point. Listen I couldn’t care less you do what you’d like, but I think you would enjoy your time here at this site a ton more if you just stopped being so defensive, that’s all.

    John - YF (Trisk) August 17, 2007, 10:10 am
  • Wow, and now another YANKEE FAN starts psychoanalyzing me. But no one calls out the ad hominen from SF’s throughout this thread.
    Weird place you got here.
    I had an opinion, specifically about Ellsbury being grouped with Melky (3:05 PM) in Josh’s post. It was so noticeable that at the exact same moment another YF was saying the same thing.
    And yet no one can answer the basic question: Why are these comps always coming from SF’s?
    Instead I get hit with hate. And *I’m* called defensive?
    Weird place…

    Woosta YF August 17, 2007, 10:20 am
  • “Defensive” or “freakishly immature”. At this point, pick one. One is true of you, so like I said. Pick one.
    And the comps are always coming from SFs?
    Only Hughes/Buchholz was brought up here, and Josh/D1 foresaw that he might draw the ire of YFs.
    He wrote one line about the “prospects” in general, and as has been pointed out by others, the “in a way, Melky” has more to do with the fact that Cabrera is beyond prospect status than anything else. Nowhere in his post does he say anything like: “Melky Suck$, Ellsbury/O’Doyle RuleZ.” You (and Amsterdam), put the comparison out there. Josh ONLY grouped Clay and Phil together.
    Fast-forward to 3:11 PM, and YOU were the first to express some of the rest of the players as comparables. And you expressed no amount of arrogance or pinstripe-colored glasses yourself, so kudos there. I mean, how gracious can you be to put the names out there, linked, as they hadn’t been yet in this thread, and then use no statistical analysis to back up your claims. And if you say that’s meaningless or something, well, it’s you who used such means to “prove” that Ellsbury will never be as valuable a player as Melky (again, obvious to someone like you, right?).

    QuoSF August 17, 2007, 10:45 am
  • My mistake. I didn’t realize I was talking to retahds.
    Yup, *I’m* the defensive one…

    Woosta YF August 17, 2007, 10:55 am
  • Here’s the thing, Woosta.
    You accused Josh of doing something he didn’t really do. If you didn’t expect he and other SFs to come out and defend him based on that premise, then you are absolutely MFY nuts.
    But again. Kudos on the mature way you handled my comments.

    QuoSF August 17, 2007, 10:59 am
  • OK gentlemen, I could use some help here. Final weekend of the playoffs for me this weekend and I need to fill the old IPod. Looking for suggestions on songs that get you pumped…Suggest away.
    (Not purposely changing the subject, this is genuine. Plus what started off as a really cool piece by Josh has turned into a pissing match.)

    John - YF (Trisk) August 17, 2007, 11:03 am
  • Audioslave: “Show Me How To Live”, “Set It Off”.
    Godsmack: “Awake”
    Rage Against the Machine: many, “Guerilla Radio”, “Bulls on Parade”, amongst others.
    Red Hot Chili Peppers: “Storm in a Teacup”
    Disturbed: “Land of Confusion”
    And one more, which is sure to get you pumped.
    Wait for it.
    Wait for it.
    The Standells: “Dirty Water” (the cover by the Dropkick Murphys being perfectly acceptable too.)

    QuoSF August 17, 2007, 11:16 am
  • Great list Quo, thanks! Only problem is I would sooner download Sweet Caroline then Dirty Water!

    John - YF (Trisk) August 17, 2007, 11:23 am
  • Led Zep’s “The Ocean” “Ramble On” “When the Levee Breaks” for a hard rocking guitar pounding good time!

    Ric August 17, 2007, 11:36 am
  • let me chime in just to say i enjoy the discussions around comparing our various players and prospects…even though we all have some bias in us, generally the conversations are reasonable…i may have started some s— with the whole melky thing awhile back when i claimed he could start for the sox [i was picking on drew, coco, and wily mo], and i took some beef for it, but mostly because i wouldn’t let it go…at times my observation has been somewhat defensible until coco’s “recovery” from whatever funk he had been in…lo and behold, melky is starting, uh, just not for the sox…so i was a little off…i don’t know what kind of career he’ll have, just like we don’t know what kind of career ellsbury will have, but that’s what makes it fun to talk about, so long as it doesn’t turn ugly…trisk, how ’bout “new york, new york”, by ol’ blue eyes [the other version is a bummer]

    dc August 17, 2007, 12:54 pm

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