Knocking At the Door

Debates over money and contracts aside, I think we can all agree this looks like a very good lineup:

  1. Lugo, SS
  2. Youkilis, 1B
  3. Ortiz, DH
  4. Ramirez, LF
  5. Drew, RF
  6. Varitek, C
  7. Crisp, CF
  8. Lowell, 3B
  9. Pedroia, 2B

And pending a signing or two, this looks like a very good rotation:

  1. Schilling
  2. Matsuzaka
  3. Beckett
  4. Wakefield
  5. Papelbon

Talk about your productive winter meetings. There is indeed reason to be optimistic in Red Sox Nation. Now all we need is a closer …

82 comments… add one
  • Stark says the Fish are interested in Dave Murphy…think we can convince them to give us Taylor Tankersley? Heh, I doubt it…but I don’t know a whole lot about their farm; do they have highly rated RP arms anywhere near ML ready? May not solve our CL problem, but it couldn’t hurt to turn an OF we have no plan to ever give a starting position into a possible bullpen arm.

    desturbd1 December 6, 2006, 1:46 am
  • I have to say, the 2007 team is slowly growing on me. And we still have quite a bit of time to find a closer before Spring Training.
    It’s so easy to drink the Kool-Aid this time of year. XD

    mouse December 6, 2006, 2:05 am
  • It’s a little to early to make predictions for the starting lineup. Any trade the Red Sox are involved in would drastically change their lineup. Though, as a YF, I’m moderately afraid of a 3-4-5 combo of Man Ram, Papi and JD II. As well as the speed of Lugo and Coco. Let’s hope the Yanks’ offseason signings/trades make a difference.

    zrsahai (YF) December 6, 2006, 2:34 am
  • Hmm. You’d really bat Tek 6th after the 2006 he had? I’d stick Lowell there, Tek 7th, and Crisp 8th. Get a little bit of speed near the bottom to set up the top, and if Tek or Crisp come back strong, they can be moved around later.

    desturbd1 December 6, 2006, 2:43 am
  • Don’t forget Lester (fingers crossed!).

    Josh SF December 6, 2006, 3:47 am
  • (I’m doing this out of boredom guys, I’ve been studying all night and I need a distraction)
    2006 Lines:AVG/OBP/SLG
    Lugo, SS- .278 .341 .421
    Youkilis, 1B- .279 .381 .429
    Ortiz, DH- .287 .413 .636
    Ramirez, LF- .321 .439 .619
    Drew, RF- .283 .393 .498
    Varitek, C- .238 .325 .400
    Crisp, CF- .264 .317 .385
    Lowell, 3B- .284 .339 .475
    Pedroia, 2B-
    Damon, CF- .285 .359 .482
    Jeter, SS- .343 .417 .483
    Abreu, RF- .297 .424 .462
    Arod, 3B- .290 .392 .523
    Giambi, DH- .253 .413 .558
    Matsui, LF- .297 .372 .485
    Cano, 2B- .342 .365 .525
    Posada, C- 277 .374 .492
    ??????, 1B-
    Sox: Few things I noticed…
    1.) Crisp is going to have a much better season in 2007, those numbers will improve.
    2.) V-Tek is going to have a better season in 2007, those numbers will improve.
    3.) Pedroia is a unknown commodity as of yet, I didn’t want to look up his stats for Pawtucket, but I’m sure he’ll be decent.
    4.) Lugo’s OBP is kinda low for a lead off hitter, but it could go up in 2007.
    1.) I have a strong feeling that a monster season is coming for Alex.
    2.) It would be nice if Jetes could put similar numbers in 2007, but he hadn’t had a season like that since 1999, his numbers will dip.
    3.) I left 1B blank because I know Andy “Roll Tide” Phillips will not be the starting first baseman. Maybe Hillenbrand, I don’t know.
    4.) I used Godzilla’s career line becuase of the minimum number of AB’s he had.
    Bottom line, Sox fans have something to look forward to, it will be a potent lineup if everyone is healthy.
    I hope this was mildly interesting to at least one person.
    I’m super tired, I’ve been studying for 14 hours, and I’m going to bed.

    bloodyank78 December 6, 2006, 6:42 am
  • But where’s Matt Clement?????

    Adam December 6, 2006, 7:21 am
  • …to my sox friends: your team could change a bit before the season starts [although it looks like the big change, trading manny, will probably not happen], but you have every reason to be optimistic about the outlook for 2007…this looks like a solid lineup for you…should be an interesting season…

    dc December 6, 2006, 7:57 am
  • Perusing that roster I can’t help but think that the Sox are going to have one weird clubhouse. Between Matsuzaka (if he signs) and his media contingent, Manny, Schilling (and his media contingent), Drew (and his naysayers), the young brash guns (Papelbon and Beckett), the silent types (Wake, Lowell), the vibrant leaders (Ortiz), it’s gonna be very strange. And they don’t even have some sort of maniacal-personality-closer-type yet, either!
    Maybe it’s not very different than any other clubhouse, I don’t know. But it sure seems interesting. The Boston mediots are drooling right now. They also must be praying Manny sticks around, just to give them material.

    SF December 6, 2006, 8:46 am
  • The lineup certainly has the potential to be scary. Provided health for Drew, that’s a real nasty 3-4-5. The only real hole in the lineup projects to be Pedroia, who could always surprise me.
    I too think Varitek will bounce back some (perhaps like Posada did last year after a poor 2005). Lowell could be due for a bad year, but then again I think Fenway is good for him. Crisp really should improve.
    So basically the two teams will be back at it again next year, throwin’ haymakers at each other. Huzzah!

    Rob (Middletown, CT) December 6, 2006, 8:59 am
  • I think with Pedroia, at the very least, his good track record with OBP in the minors will follow him up. He probably won’t hit .300 this season, but something like the line Youkilis put up (anyone else think they’re pretty similar hitters, with Youkilis probably having more power potential?) in his first season: .367/.413/.260. I don’t think that’s expecting a whole lot, and even with his struggles last season, you could see DP’s excellent approach at the plate.

    Quo December 6, 2006, 9:11 am
  • Julio “Who-go” Lugo? JD “Just Dogging it” Drew?

    Yanks in 07 December 6, 2006, 9:29 am
  • yeah, if that lineup heads into Ft.Meyers, I’ll be a happy guy.
    That’s a ton of speed, a ton of power, and a ton of OBP to make it all go around.
    Color me happy for now.

    Brad December 6, 2006, 9:36 am
  • I just don’t trust anyone coming from the NL to the AL East, call me crazy.
    I am worried that it seems like JD Drew is also coming with a few strikes against him from the media and the fans. I just hope that inspires him to perform instead of bringing him down.

    LocklandSF December 6, 2006, 9:38 am
  • Lockland: I hope the SEVENTY MILLION inspires him!

    SF December 6, 2006, 9:46 am
  • …or a kick in the butt from captain v…

    dc December 6, 2006, 9:47 am
  • or a kick in the butt from captain v…
    true. Captains should stand up for the guys on his team. He should never let them get dumped on by fans and media when things aren’t going as exactly perfect as they’d like:))))

    Brad December 6, 2006, 9:51 am
  • No, a captain’s job is to stand silent in the heat of the moment, then issue press releases afterwards.

    SF December 6, 2006, 9:54 am
  • Lets hope that Francona doesnt flip flop Coco and Youkilis. Im scared to death that he will.

    Trot 3:16 December 6, 2006, 10:01 am
  • I’m starting my COCO IN THE 9 HOLE campaign here and now.

    LocklandSF December 6, 2006, 10:06 am
  • Lockland: I just had that conversation with a guy I work with, and we are both in full agreement.
    Lineup, if I made it out:

    Brad December 6, 2006, 10:17 am
  • SF: That clubhouse will be interesting. And CROWDED. A knock on Fenway has always been that the clubhouse is too small. Now they’re going to have to accomodate a massive Japanese media contingent. Peter Abraham made this point.

    YF December 6, 2006, 10:42 am
  • Yeah, the interior space of Fenway is TINY, even with the recent clubhouse renovations.
    They already don’t have enough space for just the Boston media, I don’t know where they are going to put the 15 or so Japanese reporters every five days.

    LocklandSF December 6, 2006, 10:50 am
  • What happens to Wily Mo? That’s nuts, trade him for Bronson and now he doesn’t even fit in thier plans? Odd.

    Triskaidekaphobia YF December 6, 2006, 10:53 am
  • Hey, I would be fine with this too…
    Wily Mo

    LocklandSF December 6, 2006, 11:01 am
  • interesting thought (to me at least)…who do you think has the better 3-4-5 going into 07?
    red sox
    white sox

    m.g. yanks fan December 6, 2006, 11:12 am
  • methinks:
    Ortiz and Tome are more feared hitter than Abreu.
    A-Rod and Manny are basically the same person, but Manny has been known to move guys along a little better – at least lately.
    Dye needs another year like last year to even be on the list. Was last year a fluke?
    Drew and Giambi are a wash, I think. Although Giambi will hurt you deep more often than Drew.
    If I had to rank them based on that comparison:
    NY (close, but Ortiz puts them over the top)

    Brad December 6, 2006, 11:23 am
  • 2006 OPS:
    Ortiz/Ramirez/Drew: 2.998
    Thome/Konerko/Dye: 2.953
    Abreu/Rodriguez/Giambi: 2.772
    Frankly, I’m surprised. I figured Chicago would be at the top, but Konerko’s slugging wasn’t as good as I thought, and when you consider Dye outperformed his career OPS by 150 points last year, there’s a strong case to be made for them not being No. 1.
    Ortiz and Ramirez each had OPSes above 1.000 (as did Thome and Dye), but none of the three Yankees did. Abreu and Giambi were right in line with their career averages and previous season’s output, but A-Rod was way below. Even had he reached his career high, however, it would not have been enough to bring the three players’ totals up to Ortiz-Ramirez-Drew.

    Paul SF December 6, 2006, 12:55 pm
  • Even had A-Rod reached his career average, that should have been. Considering his career high would have added about 700 points, that definitely would have closed the gap.

    Paul SF December 6, 2006, 12:59 pm
  • I don’t mean to sound like a homer, but Giambi and Drew are not a wash.

    Triskaidekaphobia December 6, 2006, 1:11 pm
  • I meant a “wash” in the sense of neither on is going to put the trifecta over the top. But, I’d argue that they are very similar players but giambi will hurt you with a HR more often. BA, OBP, and all the rest are very similar, so yeah, they’re a wash basically.
    And, I don’t consider you a homer for suggesting that. If you wanted to say 2001 Giambi, clearly he wins, but last year, the two were very, very similar offensively.

    Brad December 6, 2006, 1:15 pm
  • Also,
    If you put A-Rod there instead of Giambi, I think the two teams are equal. Abreu’s lack of power (comparatively) with Ortiz and Konerko hurts them, so maybe it’s him you replace if that’s what you’re looking at.
    At this point, it doesn’t really matter. Both teams will hurt a pitcher, no matter who he is, very very bad if he’s not extra careful.
    Now if you add the fact that in front of these guys is going to be Damon, Jeter, Youkilis, and Lugo or Crisp and ther’s a lot of speed and contact hitting in front of these sluggers. It’s gross no matter which lineup you’re looking at. Period.

    Brad December 6, 2006, 1:18 pm
  • Not that it matters a lot in this conversation, but as far as Giambi and Drew go…well. Aside from his blunder in the playoffs…one of the two can…what is it called? Oh yeah. Run.

    Quo December 6, 2006, 1:22 pm
  • Listen, Giambi is now above the knocking. He made his mistakes, and payed a very serious price for it, healthwise. He was cast out on his own by his organization and fought his way back into the mix. No, he’s nowhere near his talent level of a few years ago (cheating or not), but he’s now a very servicable hitter who can put the ball out in a hurry if a pitcher slips up. Outised of playing in NY, I think Giambi showed a lot of determination when he could have just layed low died like the rest of the guys in question. He didn’t try to lie about his mistake (ahem…Sheffield), or try to make light of it. He said sorry (in his own way) and moved on. He’s now as good as he’s going to be without the help from Balco, and that seems to be pretty darn good.
    But yeah, I don’t want him in the field and I don’t want him on the basepaths.
    I do give him credit where it’s due though. He’s a tough lefty out that will help the Yankees as long as he’s on the team.
    On another note, Yes, Drew can run and steal bases. Not that he would now, because when a player comes to Boston, that skill seems to be forgotten about.

    Brad December 6, 2006, 1:28 pm
  • Drew, 2 SB’s last season. Giambi, 2 SB’s last season.
    I would venture to say though a pitcher would much rather face Drew than Giambi in a tight situation. But I guess they are comporable somewhat.

    Triskaidekaphobia December 6, 2006, 1:30 pm
  • Drew doesn’t steal because of the well-publicized injury-risk. But anyone who thinks Drew couldn’t run circles around Giambi given the chance is probably something something.
    Honestly, I brought that up because they’re obviously completely different players, though they may bat in the same spot in the order. Drew is more likely to use the opposite field, and as Brad has pointed out, Giambi is the bigger power threat.

    Quo December 6, 2006, 1:36 pm
  • 100% agree Giambi is awful on the bases.

    Triskaidekaphobia December 6, 2006, 1:37 pm
  • Giambi is terrible. But luckily, Abreu and ARod are *really* good, for the most part..
    On the basepath, to be clear.

    Lar December 6, 2006, 2:01 pm
  • Not so, Brad. Without his injury, Coco would have set a career high in steals last season.

    Paul SF December 6, 2006, 2:05 pm
  • //On another note, Yes, Drew can run and steal bases. Not that he would now, because when a player comes to Boston, that skill seems to be forgotten about.//
    It’s true the Red Sox don’t do a lot of running as it’s not a big part of the club’s philosophy. And frankly, running for the sake of running often leads to unnecessary outs, which is bad baseball, so I agree with the philosophy personally. But saying the Red Sox don’t steal bases is a myth. The idea is to give someone like Coco or Lugo the green light to steal *when the situation makes a stolen base a good strategy.*
    Like say, in the bottom of the ninth trailing by one run with the tying run standing on first.

    mouse December 6, 2006, 2:33 pm
  • True enough, Triskaidekaphobia. OTOH, it’s probably important for us SFs to remember that Manny can be just plain bone-headed on the field, and with the departure of Mirabelli, Papi is the slowest runner on the Red Sox, his SB against the Royals notwithstanding.

    Quo December 6, 2006, 2:40 pm
  • I meant to say, Manny can be just plain bone-headed on the basepaths, but I suppose it works either way.

    Quo December 6, 2006, 2:41 pm
  • Manny talks back on with Dodgers. ESPN Deportes says a deal could be announced today.

    TJ December 6, 2006, 3:18 pm
  • Fox sports is saying that it’s Penny and two prospects for Manny. Deal could be announced today. I don’t know the prospects, but I do know that Penny is a horse, and would make that Boston rotation unbelievebale.
    On another note- how correct has Curt Schilling been in his predictions so far? I mean, we all knocked him at the time, but he damn sure was correct in everything he’s said up to this point.

    Brad December 6, 2006, 3:53 pm
  • He did have some problems after the all-star break last year. But, since we’re only judging players on their half-year performances lately (see yesterday), he’s a solid, solid guy if that happens.
    I guess Pena gets his shot if that happens, afterall.
    Or, the Manny to Seattle thing is kind of nice too. That would allow Boston to move both Youkilis (I would HATE this) and Lowell. Both of those guys will bring back nice returns for Boston if that’s the case.

    Brad December 6, 2006, 3:56 pm
  • Please let one of the prospects be Broxton. If it’s LaRoche, Broxton and Penny, it’s an amazing deal for Boston. That might be too pie-in-the-sky, however…

    Paul SF December 6, 2006, 3:57 pm
  • I’ll take Broxton, Penny and Johnny Right-Hander. Those two are a nice deal by themselves.

    Brad December 6, 2006, 3:58 pm
  • I don’t see this deal anywhere on foxsports. But I have my doubts. My first one is based on the idea that Manny doesn’t get traded. Also, with the Schmidt signing I feel it’s less likely the Dodgers will add another big salary.
    On another note, I think the Schmidt signing is the best contract of the off-season so far.

    Nick-YF December 6, 2006, 3:59 pm
  • Broxton + Penny + LaRoche is pretty amazing. It’ll be great to see Manny gone in that lineup, but it’ll be rough to see that bullpen in what will become a 6-7 inning game..

    Lar December 6, 2006, 4:01 pm
  • Think Penny can make the switch to the AL. I would be worrisome.

    Seth December 6, 2006, 4:03 pm
  • That would be my concern as well, Seth. We could be in for a Beckett-like year with upside in the future.

    Paul SF December 6, 2006, 4:06 pm
  • Nobody’s reporting this deal as far as I can tell, and SoSH is silent. Usually if something like this were done, or going down, it’d be lighting up. And it would be on most sites. Where’s the corroboration on this deal?

    SF December 6, 2006, 4:13 pm
  • it was rotoworld where I saw it.

    Seth December 6, 2006, 4:15 pm
  • Sorry, Nick. I meant Fox Sports Radio said it, but it is still in the rumors section on their main page.
    Sorry for the confusion there – I can’t find anything substantial to back that up either.

    Brad December 6, 2006, 4:15 pm
  • Seth December 6, 2006, 4:16 pm
  • yeah, that link is exactly what Steve Phillips just said on the radio.
    Nice catch, Seth.

    Brad December 6, 2006, 4:18 pm
  • No corroboration, of course. It’ll probably fall through like all the other rumors. Fun to think about though. As long as we block out the thought of replacing Manny in the lineup.

    Paul SF December 6, 2006, 4:23 pm
  • They signed Saito, but I don’t think it makes Broxton expendable.

    Seth December 6, 2006, 4:29 pm
  • who knows with LA. This is their third go around with them, so clearly LA wants him.

    Brad December 6, 2006, 4:35 pm
  • Yahoo Sports claims that Boston asked for JJ Putz, Adam Jones, and a 3rd player for Manny; they also refused to take any part of his salary.

    desturbd1 December 6, 2006, 4:48 pm
  • Just thinking…if that deal did go through…Adam Jones for Taylor Tankersley? That’d be one hell of a bullpen…

    desturbd1 December 6, 2006, 4:49 pm
  • d1, you would have been happy with that deal?

    Seth December 6, 2006, 5:15 pm
  • Not particularly, no. The 3rd player would have had to be something pretty good. But if it went down like I said and Boston got Tankersley out of it…the question to me is, are WMP, Tankersley, and Putz more valuable then Manny Ramirez? I don’t really know…too many question marks I think. Probably should have said, it could be one hell of a bullpen…but it may not be a risk worth taking.

    desturbd1 December 6, 2006, 5:21 pm
  • Add Penny, and I’m happy with it. As happy as you can be I guess after losing the best hitter I’ve ever seen.

    Brad December 6, 2006, 5:40 pm
  • Seattle supposedly just sent super setup man Rafael Soriano to Atlanta for Horacio Ramirez, he of the arm troubles and 5 wins in 2006. What a f*cking steal.
    Where were you, Theo!??!

    SF December 6, 2006, 5:42 pm
  • Which means Putz is probably not an option, so the Seattle deal is dead, if it was ever living.

    SF December 6, 2006, 5:43 pm
  • yeps.

    Brad December 6, 2006, 5:45 pm
  • So the Mariners would rather get Horacio Ramirez than Manny Ramirez for Soriano? Their loss, Atlanta’s and our gain, I suppose. Maybe they got confused and ended up trading for the wrong Ramirez.
    If it’s gonna be anyone, it’s gonna be the Dodgers, apparently. Time is ticking.

    Paul SF December 6, 2006, 6:06 pm
  • brad and sf, i get the jeter joke, but my point was not that a captain should kiss the asses of his fellow stars, but that he should occasionally kick them…nothing would have been gained from jeter treating arod like a pussy and telling the fans to “stop booing”…we may find out how good a captain the man with the “c” on his chest is if manny boycotts again, or if drew melts down as some are predicting…being a captain is more than sucker-punching arod after calling for a beanball from the head-hunter…

    dc December 6, 2006, 6:57 pm
  • I thought the C looked particularly good on his jersey that day. Wait. You mean it wasn’t there? He hadn’t been named captain at that point?
    I agree with you in premise, dc, believe it or not. But that’s kind of an important piece of information you should have had for your argument.

    Quo December 6, 2006, 7:18 pm
  • being a captain is more than sucker-punching arod after calling for a beanball from the head-hunter…
    Yep. It’s standing up for your teammates, which is exactly what Tek was doing. You call it a sucker punch, but if I remember correctly, A-Rod was looking right at him. Should he have warned him that he was about to get his ass whipped? What ballpark did you grow up in? Last I checked, when a fight breaks out, there is usually no warning other than a runner charging the mound.
    Oh, and did you call Bronson Arroyo a headhunter? He throws 80mph curveball and an 82mph fastball? That’s a headhunter?
    Pedro, yes. Clemens, yes. Peavy, yes.
    Bronson, not so much.

    Brad December 6, 2006, 7:18 pm
  • so i got a couple of the details off…my point’s still the same…jeter can’t be kissing the ass of every prima donna in the yanks clubhouse, and v may have a challenging year…nothing more than that…

    dc December 6, 2006, 7:38 pm
  • Well then, dc, I guess this’ll be a true test for him. And I imagine we’ll get a lot of YFs saying he should be more vocal. I will tell you what we won’t see, is any credible argument or article about Varitek not making an effort to get along with everybody. Or articles about him not accepting apologies for accidents that cause injuries.

    Quo December 6, 2006, 8:03 pm
  • …yea quo, we all know what a boy scout he is…hard not to get along with everybody when you have a neutral personality…
    “Or articles about him not accepting apologies for accidents that cause injuries.”…huh?…you lost me…refresh my memory…

    dc December 6, 2006, 8:07 pm
  • dc, Ken Huckaby. Whatever else you might say about him, Jeter handled that in a manner uncharacteristic to what we’re told about him.
    And honestly, Varitek isn’t a boy scout. Varitek would’ve dealt with A-Rod on the Sox in a similar way to Jeter, but with one caveat: He would’ve tried to help him in a private manner. If you’re going to argue that a guy getting paid $25M shouldn’t need help, I’ll agree with you. That’s a perfect world. In the real world, A-Rod’s a headcase who is often publicly and privately shunned by the face of the team he plays for.

    Quo December 7, 2006, 12:02 am
  • Interesting, I definately didn’t remember that Quo. Here’s the apology story for those who want to see it. I can understand why Jeter would be mad…but that was kind of a dick thing to do.

    desturbd1 December 7, 2006, 12:08 am
  • Exactly, d-1. You’d think Jeter would have responded a little better to Huckaby’s apology. Was he wrong to be somewhat mad? No. Would any of us have been at least somewhat mad? Sure. Nonetheless…ridiculous way to handle it.

    Quo December 7, 2006, 1:15 am
  • quo, i thought you were above the jeter-bashing, but i’ve learned not to have high expectations of most sf’s when it comes to being objective about that guy, or your own for that matter…jeter had a right to be pissed about getting hurt, but the piece you submit as evidence is blatantly one-sided…the writer obviously has the same jeter-hater complex, and saw this as a great chance to take a shot…i’m not defending him if that’s the way it happened, he should have at least acknowledged the guy’s attempt…maybe his pr firm had the day off…
    and come on, how the hell do you know that jeter hasn’t tried to have a private conversation with arod about not being such a pussy, or that varitek would?…you guys always try to sound like such insiders…if you’re going to criticize the guy, at least get it right: jeter’s character flaw is that he has no patience with pussys…he went down the list of guys who have been booed on the yankees, including himself, and mo rivera…did they wilt, then beg for sympathy?…no…did someone ask the fans to stop booing?…no…arod needs to start believing that he is the best player in baseball, shrug off the bs from fans and media [who have gone out of their way to fuel this stuff], and just do what he does best…

    dc December 7, 2006, 12:42 pm
  • “the writer obviously has the same jeter-hater complex, and saw this as a great chance to take a shot”
    Well to be fair, the story was about Ken Huckaby’s quest to make it in the bigs…and the Jeter-angle was relevant because that incident was the only reason anyone had ever heard of Ken Huckaby. And because the NY press vilified the guy for what happened. The article wasn’t attacking Jeter…it was just an interview, where Huckaby described the after-effects of the biggest incident in his career. Ken’s the one making the accusations, the writer just reported on them…I don’t see how you can say the writer is only doing this to take a shot at Jeter.

    desturbd1 December 7, 2006, 1:10 pm
  • It is one-sided, in that it makes no attempt to verify the details with Jeter or his now-ubiquitous PR firm. Nevertheless, it’d be more of a stretch to belive Huckaby is lying than to believe Jeter is capable of such (non-)behavior.
    It’s such an odd reaction to an apology. If you’re pissed, why not say so? Or slug the guy, or something. Just to stare at him until he walks away — that is bizarre.

    Paul SF December 7, 2006, 1:22 pm
  • i agree with you paul 100%…is this a first for me and you…just kidding…i think we’ve been on the same page before…

    dc December 7, 2006, 1:51 pm
  • I don’t like to admit it, but I think this might be the third or fourth time, dc ;-)

    Paul SF December 7, 2006, 2:23 pm

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