Yanks Gamers/Postmortems

No Steamers: Yanks-Reds Gamer

Travis Wood pitches for Cincinnati while Ivan Nova looks to make it three straight wins as the Bombers visit the Great American Ballpark.  Comment away.

33 replies on “No Steamers: Yanks-Reds Gamer”

I’ve watched this whole game but have not been commenting because the scoreboard/standing module needed fixing again.
Wood pitched a really good game after the first, but Nova has been stellar, no pun intended.

Ninth inning. Ayala in to relieve Ivan Nova, who was awesome. Luis gives up a leadoff single to Brandon Phillips. Logan comes in to face Votto, and plunks him on the first pitch. Girardi yanks him for Rivera. Mo needs three outs with runners on first and second. Jay Bruce up.

Bruce works a long at bat and eventually grounds out to Teixeira, pushing the runners over.
Rolen reaches on an infield single, scoring Phillips. Nunez almost throws it away.
Now a fielders choice scores another run. Mo almost turned two. Two away to Renteria, pinching for Hanigan.

Nova was fantastic tonight. That’s why I’m glad they’ve been patient with him.
Also, Girardi needs to grow a pair and deal with laziness from players (Cano’s defense, Andruw Jones’ slow trot to first while grounding into a double play).

Didn’t get to watch the game as I’m overseas, but didn’t Jones twist his ankle going to first and that’s why he didn’t run it out? That’s what I read anyway.
Fantastic to hear Nova did so well against what is a pretty formidable offense – NL or no NL. He is really coming along nicely and looks like he could be a good #4 or 5 for a while, or a substantial trade chip.
Yanks are compiling a pretty exceptional record against eveyrone but the Sox. And as good as the Sox are, I don’t expect them to continue beating the Yanks at a rate of 8 out of every 9.
Hughes is tearing it up in his early rehab appearances – next one is Friday in Trenton. If the Yanks can stay tight with Boston until Colon and Hughes come back around the all-star break, the second half of the season should be fun.
All in all I don’t know how any yankee fan can be disappointed with the results this team is generating right now, weak starting rotation and all.

I’m extremely disappointed that the organization is where it is, six years after Aaron Small and Shawn Chacon, and five years after Cashman got “full” control. When a guy like Brian Gordon is in the rotation, there’s something extremely wrong with their development pipeline for pitchers. With him on top of Freddy Garcia there’s something horribly wrong with that system when they’re promoting old vets and journeymen over guys like Noesi, Phelps, and Warren who could be backend starters with their whole careers in front of them. Then of course trading away guys like Clippard, Melancon, and Vizcaino for literally nothing, and I’m not just disappointed but actively angry. Then I add to that the fact that Haren and Oswalt were traded for peanuts last year, and how the Yankees treated a viable chip in Joba, and I realize this organization is hopeless without its wallet.
As for Hughes, I really hate that people think of him as some great white hope. He’s not. He’s never been a good starter. In 60 career starts (or almost two full seasons), he’s got a 4.97 ERA with 46 HRs allowed. Even last year, Hughes started the season strong in 9 starts then sucked in the remaining 20. That’s awful. The Yankees will keep trotting him out there, because Hughes is the last of the Big 3, but it’s not going to change the results. More velo doesn’t help when he’s a two-pitcher pitcher. He belongs in the bullpen where that stuff is an asset so long as batters only see you once.

I don’t think anyone here called him “some great white hope”. I think regardless of your thoughts on Hughes, Yankee fans are somewhat excited about the idea of his return. I don’t think any rational Yankee fan thinks he’s going to transform in Roy Halladay, but it’s most certainly better than watching Gordon or Garcia pitch.

Jesus H. Christ. Compare Arodys to Banuelos and to Betances and they literally gave away the best of the three. Now consider they traded him for Javier Vazquez last year. Folks thought Zambrano for Kazmir was bad. Wait until Vizcaino is dominating for the Braves next year.
It makes my blood melt.

Except he is a great white hope. No one here needs to say it. That’s the truth. His performance thus far does not justify a rotation slot, not even over the likes of Gordon and Garcia. He’s terrible especially when he can’t get his cutter over. He’s throwing batting practice and gopher balls.

You are all over the map, but I will try and keep up…
1. Betances’ numbers are much better than Vizcaino this season, both at AA. (Not to mention he’s also 6’8, compared to Vizcaino’s 6′, which by all accounts is generous). There are concerns with him staying healthy, but obviously the kid is good. So while the trade may have certainly blown donkey balls, let’s not get crazy and anoint Viz the best of the bunch.
2. He won’t be dominating anywhere near Atlanta next season. With Minor, Beachy, Teheran and Randall Delgado…he’s both the least talented (which says a lot about that group) and the furthest down the prospect list. I am not in love with Beachy, so sure he could easily pass him but that still leaves you with too many pitchers for just a few spots on the big club.
3. You can have your opinion of Hughes, that’s fine, but to say he doesn’t deserve a spot over Gordon just makes you lose credibility. A converted OF’r, who spent 14 years in the ML’s, who was also released by a NL team…Let’s not get crazy. I’ll leave Garcia alone as he has a decent track record, but nothing Gordon has done says he deserves the spot over Hughes.

How can someone say that the Yankees prefer veterans over prospects when they handed a 24-year old a rotation spot over the obviously superior veteran Colon? And when Hughes comes back from the DL, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Sweaty Freddy jetisonned. So there would be another example of the Yankees not preferring a veteran over a young guy. Oh, but then Hughes sucks, has always sucked and will forever suck no matter what, so the Yankees are dumb if they prefer a young guy over a veteran in this case. Okay…
Brian Gordon starting a few games for a team that has two starting pitchers on the DL does not mean something is horrendously wrong with the organization. It means that they think Brian Gordon is a better candidate for 3 or 4 starts than their minor league options. And it’s not like they’ve been blowing everyone out of the water. Warren has a 5.4 K/9 and a 3.5 BB/9. Not ready. DJ Mitchell has similar mediocre peripherals. Noesi has become a valuable bullpen arm that currently needs help more than the starting staff. He would probably be in the rotation over Gordon if the Yankees hadn’t had a need in the bullpen. David Phelps looks like a nice fill-in option, but the Yankees probably (rightfully) don’t see him as a long-term high-end guy, and Brian Gordon could give similar results, and having two similar guys is better than only having one.
It’s not about stats, it’s almost never about stats when talking about the minor leagues, it’s about scouting. And be all sarcastic and clever as you want, but the Yankees have been pretty fantastic at determining who can be an effective major league starter this year. I think they deserve a little bit of slack for their successes so far.

1. Look at their career K:BB rates. Combine that exactly with Betances injury history and build and I’m not the least bit hopeful. Still the comparison is bit meaningless. They gave Vizcaino away for a resulting downgrade in pitching than if they had simply given Joba the slot. Even in the NL East, Vazquez is finished.
2. Vizcaino will appear in the bigs, and contribute, before either of the BB’s in Trenton.
3. Hughes has been terrible as a starter and across 60 starts. Anyone with a pulse is better, and that includes other youngsters in their “system”.
Andrew –
As for Colon, he looks like a guy that could breakdown at any minute. He’s been injured and his mechanics are awful. They have a backlog of guys needing a shot at AAA. Where are they if the Yankees favor youngsters?
As for the sarcasm with Hughes, I look to past performance to predict the future. You look to what, exactly?
The Yankees also didn’t see Ian Kennedy long-term high-end guy. How’s that working out? More to the point, Hughes isn’t that guy. Neither is Gordon. Or Colon. Or Garcia. The Yankees need serviceable arms. As they have for the last decade. How’s the system working out, eh?
Fantastic for picking up guys off the scrap heap? Um, okay. You mean like Millwood or Silva. Some times shit sticks. That’s hardly a worthwhile development strategy. In fact, it actively impairs their ability to develop talent, as it has for the entire Cashman regime.
The plain fact is Cashman has yet to develop a serviceable starter in his entire career. Given the evidence of him in “full” control, it’s obvious why. The organization is a black, morbid, hole when it comes to pitching prospects. They go to other teams to succeed.

1. Betances is 6ft8…His mechanics are going to take a while to be refined. I don’t think that has anything to do with long term value. As for the K/9 Betances is significantly better. For a second time, I said the trade sucked donkey balls…was that not clear enough?
2. That’s NOT what you said…You said “Wait until Vizcaino is dominating for the Braves next year.” The argument wasn’t who will make it first.
3. Anyone with a pulse is better, and that includes other youngsters in their “system” – Seems a little extreme.

“He’s been injured and his mechanics are awful.”
I’ll defer to John on this, but I’ve always thought that Colon’s mechanics were considered very good for a pitcher.
“The Yankees also didn’t see Ian Kennedy long-term high-end guy. How’s that working out?”
Huh? I mean you do know about these guy named Curtis Granderson? The Yanks did draft IPK in the first round before Joba. I think they liked him. Sometimes you trade something to get something.
Hughes is what? 24? I am not exactly sanguine about him going forward, but it’s not entirely unreasonable to think a pitcher with his minor league success and pedigree, who had a a good k:bb ratio and 102+Era in the AL East as a starter one season, could make a jump to becoming a very good starter.

Just watched this video of him ( and to be honest his mechanics are not awful. He uses more of his lower half than I thought. He does lead with his elbow (something that puts a tremendous amount of extra strain on the elbow) and that’s a big red flag long term. I don’t see that issue becoming a problem this season, that’s more of long term, wear and tear issue. He stays closed, doesn’t fly open. Gets over his front knee, left foot pointed at home plate…the only other small point is his glove hand is lazy, but that wouldn’t be a breakdown issue…I am not a Colon fan, but I can’t really find huge flaws with his mechanics.

“They have a backlog of guys needing a shot at AAA. Where are they if the Yankees favor youngsters?”
No, they have guys at AAA who, aside from David Phelps, clearly need more time at AAA. They’re still in AAA because they’re not ready for the majors, and the Yankees have determined (correctly) that other options are superior to them at this point in time.
Ivan Nova, a 24-year old, was given a full-time rotation spot out of Spring Training. Over Bartolo Colon, a veteran who was clearly the superior option at the time.
Jesus, the Yankees had TWO 24-year olds in their rotation at the start of the season. None of the other options were quite ready for the majors. The Yankees correctly determined that Freddy Garcia was a better option at the major league level than any of the options at AAA. Maybe David Phelps could have given a similar performance, but that’s highly doubtful given his repertoire and scouting report.

> IPK for Curtis Granderson
Nick wins.. But it’s got the added bonus that Phil Coke and Austin Jackson were accurately judged and aren’t around to make me tear my sparse hair out.

considering where the yankees draft every year due to past free agent signings, i’d say they don’t do too badly with their selections…the fact that they don’t rush young guys to the majors reflects that they are not the rays or nats, who tend to have better picks than teams like the yankees, and receive compensation picks for lost free agents…those teams have to rush guys to the majors to fill out their rosters…and they are bound to scoop up the better prospects, given their position in the draft, leaving the yankees to sift through what’s left in later picks/rounds…the yankees model is to win now, every year, so unless the organization and fans suddenly do an about face and become patient with about 4 or 5 losing seasons in order to improve our draft position, and refuse to lock up young guys that do pan out, like cano to prevent him from going elsewhere, in which case we would be rewarded with a compensation pick and save a ton of money, we have to be more patient with minor league development…pick your poison…awhile ago i made a heated, emotional comment here which basically said, fire everybody, off with their heads…it was out of frustration, so i get a mulligan…i was all over everybody, from cashman, to the trainers, to the amateur scouts, to the minor league coaching…james, if you want someone to concede that the yanks haven’t made the best free agent signings, haven’t selected or developed the best talent, and haven’t made the best overall use of their immense resources, yep, you’re right…just keep in mind that they are but a season and a half removed from a world series title…this season will be a struggle considering the immense improvement of the sox, and the further erosion of what everyone thought would be the yankees’ weak link [starting pitching], but i agree 100% with IH, that any reasonable, rational yankee fan cannot be all that disappointed with how the season is going so far…

Anyone want to guess how many innings in pinstripes IPK got during his time under Yankee control? The kid put a 1.95 ERA in over 200 minor league innings, and the reward in pinstripes was…59 innings across three seasons. The Yankee Way.
You all telling me that the D-Backs wouldn’t have taken Joba or Hughes? Please. Those guys were “off-limts”. Why?
Granderson, like Swisher, were salary dumps. This was not uncovering a rock somewhere. Their teams were actively shopping them.
Haren and Oswalt were out there too. Why not move Joba for Haren? Whoops! They killed his value.
You can’t say “aside from Phelps” when that’s exactly the point. Noesi too. In order to develop pitching you have to have them pitch. They didn’t with IPK. They didn’t with Joba. They aren’t with Phelps or Noesi.
Hughes is terrible. He had 9 excellent starts last year then went downhill. A career 4.97 ERA as a starter is not even remotely good. Not even for his age.
Colon has had shoulder troubles. Can you explain how that happens?
Don’t talk to me about the draft. 1) The Sox draft in the same place every year. They’ve gotten Buchholz and Lester and Bard and Papelbon. 2) The Yankees spend freely internationally. That’s unlimited.
I’m disappointed in the whole organization. This season means crap when they get to October with a front four of CC, Burnett, Colon, and Garcia. Well, maybe Brian Gordon or Carlos Silva slips in there…

“Colon has had shoulder troubles. Can you explain how that happens?”
The fact that this is a serious question, apparently intended to poke holes in John’s insightful, serious, well-considered analysis of Colon’s delivery mechanics, says it all re: your approach to these conversations James. This is just a ridiculous question.
How do shoulder injuries happen?? Really?
Walking into a door
Lifting a duffel bag, or a dead body
Shot putting
Excessive badminton
Tying a shoe
Sleeping on it the wrong way
Tantric sex gone wrong
Chopping wood
Shoveling snow
Playing with one’s children at the local playground
Excessive masturbation
Pulling a suitcase off the baggage carousel
Pitching in the major leagues at an advanced age after not having done it for years.

It’s OK IH, no worries. Let him talk. I don’t know why he’s had shoulder problems. Shoulder problems (in my experience) have less to do with mechanics and more to do with overuse, genetics, etc…Nick asked a question in re: to his mechanics and I answered it, that’s all.

Wait, what? I was interested in his opinion. I obviously have less knowledge than he does. Everyone talks about elbow injuries. But with shoulders being much more nefarious, I was wondering if there’s a way to spot problems there.

Regarding the “off-limits” stuff that Cashman said about Hughes/Joba, at the time I had assumed that they were saying that to drive up the perceived value of those players. Seemed like a good idea, though they never actually ended up moving them.

Gah, I am going to poke the beast here, but there is a legitimate complaint to be made that the Yankees are spending $210M on payroll plus a vast sum on scouting and signing minor league talent yet their system isn’t exactly flowing with riches all while some of the guys they have been leaning on as “the future” and somewhat untouchable (thanks to Cashman winning the power play a couple years ago) haven’t panned out.
I just think the displeasure with these facts is being hyperbolically expressed and in occasionally antagonistic fashion, which is unsurprising.
And, on the other hand, they did win a World Series a mere 20 months ago.

Then again SF, that’s trying to say that the Yankees’ $210M payroll should mean they are a consistent 105-win team (since if they always hit on player development, they would spend less money on better players, thereby being able to spend more money on better free agents), which is a fallacy, since we all know about the law of diminishing returns.
The Yankees aren’t a perfect organization. No team is. If you complain that the Yankees, who currently have the best run differential in baseball, aren’t putting their resources to their absolute fullest advantage and aren’t hitting on every single thing they come in contact with, you must hate everything about the world. Although I wouldn’t put it past James, who seems to be a malcontent about everything.
I could say the same thing about the Sox organization, who are supposed to have the absolute pinnacle of player development along with the unlimited cash to back it up, and yet their farm system is currently devoid of any true high-end, high-probablity talent (whatever happened to that can’t-miss Jose Iglesias guy, anyway?). They ain’t the Platonic Ideal either. Who is? No one. Are the Yankees supposed to be? I don’t know. I just know that they’re a damn fine organization that has a tremendous amount of success year after year, and I appreciate it.

The problem is Cashman gained full authority to stock the farm with pitching talent. That was five years ago. He also promised no more high-priced but underperforming pitchers given the debacle of Pavano, Igawa, Wright, Unit, Vazquez, Weaver, etc.
They have had plenty of time to develop pitchers. The problem is more pitching prospects are successful once they leave the organization than if they stay. In my mind now, if you’re a pitching prospect in the Yankees organization, you’re trade bait, nothing more. There is no hope for any of them, especially since none of the guys currently in the system are as good as “The Big 3”. Don’t forget to buy your t-shirt at RAB!

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