On the Defensive

Beyond the Box Score takes a look at defensive ratings thus far this year, based on ZRate — or defensive runs above average — for all infielders and outfielders. Interesting notes:

  • Kevin Youkilis is slightly above average at first — just ahead of Doug Mientkiewicz (0.48 runs above average to 0.27). Jason Giambi is dead last in the majors, costing the Yankees nearly 12 runs — or more than one game per season — defensively on average.
  • Mark Loretta actually is subpar defensively, with a -4.81 ZRate. Robinson Cano fares quite well here.
  • Best defensive third baseman in the league, far and away, without a contest? Mike Lowell, who gives the Red Sox nearly 15 runs over your average third baseman (David Bell). Dead last? "Gold Glover" Alex Rodriguez, nearly nine runs in the hole.
  • Gonzo is the No. 3 shortstop in the majors (+7.05), second in the AL to Juan Uribe. "Gold Glover" Derek Jeter lands in 29th place (-8.17). Incidentally, Hanley Ramirez and Edgar Renteria both fare poorly here as well.
  • Manny’s not winning that Gold Glove this year (although maybe he will, considering the A-Rod and Jeter wins), finishing second-to-last among left fielders with a -16.83. Melky Cabrera is better, but still below average (-5.00) — and worse than Alfonso Soriano.
  • Johnny Damon far outranks Coco Crisp, who I’lla dmit has been disappointing this year in center, let alone at the plate. Crisp does beat out Andruw Jones, though.
  • Trot Nixon is a tad below average, while Bernie Williams is dead last among right fielders.

For the record, that’s four Yankees and one Red Sox in the Bottom 3 defensively at their respective positions, and two Red Sox and zero Yankees in the Top 3 in their respective positions. Just, you know, pointing that out.

(Disclaimer: ZRate is widely considered the best measure of defense, although many argue with its ability to differentiate between positions, and sabermatricians acknowledge that defense remains the last frontier for baseball statistics.)

99 comments… add one
  • I don’t recall ARod winning any GGs at 3B, even if he deserved it last year. And Jeter didn’t deserve his, either.

    yankeemonkey July 27, 2006, 10:58 pm
  • Jason Giambi at 1B is the equivalent of Maple Tree being planted 3 feet to the left of the bag. HE SUCKS. Jason’s role is well known by now, a pitcher makes a slight mistake to him and f’ing pounds him.

    bloodyank78 July 27, 2006, 11:04 pm
  • To me, Giambi is the ultimate answer to the “Ortiz doesn’t deserve MVP because he doesn’t play the field” argument. Giambi has an MVP, and if he had Ortiz stats, no one (or at least very few) would argue he shouldn’t get it even though his defense actually costs the Yankees games… Ortiz costs the Red Sox no games with his glove, yet this is somehow counted as a liability…

    Paul SF July 27, 2006, 11:09 pm
  • Paul, I’m actually more interested in APhillips and his rating….he appears to be pretty good over there, I wonder if the numbers support it as well?
    And, just so you know, we YFs harbor no illusions about our team’s defensive prowess ;-)

    yankeemonkey July 27, 2006, 11:11 pm
  • Correction: it was supposed to be “and Jason @#!* pounds him”; I should have added that his role also includes driving up the other pitcher’s pitch count significantly.(Quite like “Kevin the Greek” of the Sox)

    bloodyank78 July 27, 2006, 11:13 pm
  • I hope they do a catcher stat. I’d like to see where Jorge stands (or squats).
    It’s interesting that Melky and Manny are both way down on the list. Yes, they don’t have good fielding reps, but i wonder how much they’re punished for playing in left fields with smaller than average dimensions.
    conversely, those guys running around out there on turf (rios, wells, crawford) might appear to have a better range that is actually a park effect. are these stats skewed for these factors?

    YF July 27, 2006, 11:21 pm
  • I imagine that’s one of the problems with defensive stats; at least they’ve created a park factor for offense/pitching… I believe Phillips hasn’t amassed the 300 innings necessary to be included at a position…
    YM, Yeah, it’s not like I’ve heard a ton of Yankee fans saying, “Yeah, well we;’ve got Giambi, and he’s way better at first than Youkilis!” Other than the Jeter/ARod stuff, this is more just wonder and amazement that the Red Sox are actually fielding an infield defense in which no member sucks at his position. I mean, wow!

    Paul SF July 27, 2006, 11:36 pm
  • http://www.baseballprospectus.com/statistics/sortable/index.php?cid=11582
    Of course, the Yankee does converte more balls in play into outs.

    RollingWave July 28, 2006, 3:53 am
  • Paul,
    Please, don’t start up that “Papi was the real MVP” thing again. No matter what you, and most of RSN, think, he didn’t win. It’s over.
    If the AL played real baseball, and Big Dumpy had to play the field – he would NO DOUBT cost the red sox games, and we wouldn’t have to argue.
    Secondly, since Jeter is the reigning gold glover, like it or not- no parenthesis necessary

    MoForPresident July 28, 2006, 10:06 am
  • “Melky Cabrera is better, but still below average (-5.00)”
    Was this going through your mind when Melky robbed Manny of that HR?

    MoForPresident July 28, 2006, 10:13 am
  • Phillips has played 458 innings at first this year.

    MoForPresident July 28, 2006, 10:26 am
  • Mo, I’m talking about general arguments, including those taking place this year, since Papi is again putting up MVP-style numbers, unlike, um, the current MVP. Didn’t even mention 2005, but if your inferiority complex led you to that conclusion, good for you…
    And isn’t it kind of silly to say, “If the AL played real baseball,” when it’s pretty clear that of the two leagues this year, the AL is clearly the only one playing any kind of baseball? I don’t doubt Ortiz would be bad, but he wouldn’t be as bad as Giambi at first — and Giambi has an MVP (and HGH, but that’s neither here nor there). That’s all I’m saying…
    Mo, It made me feel not as bad as it likely made you feel when “Big Dumpy” killed you twice in 2004… Don’t throw around dumb insults just because you’re mad the Yankees passed over him in 2003.
    Oops, yep, I missed Andy Phillips. He’s 24th out of 35, right below Kevin Millar (ouch!)…

    Paul SF July 28, 2006, 10:35 am
  • TO ALL: Following up on Paul’s comment, could we please dispense with the disparaging monikers for Papi, Alex, Curt, and all other players. Phrases like “Pay-Rod” are tedious, not clever–especially when repeated ad nauseum–and degrade this site to a level the authors really hope to avoid. If you don’t like a player, fine, that’s your business, but let’s avoid the name calling. I think we’re all better than that.

    YF July 28, 2006, 10:53 am
  • “And isn’t it kind of silly to say, “If the AL played real baseball”
    The DH makes the game a lot less interesting, doesn’t it? If you’re a real fan of the game, you have to agree
    ” I don’t doubt Ortiz would be bad, but he wouldn’t be as bad as Giambi at first”
    After your religious qoutations of stats, I guess you’re just basing this one on “gut”?
    “since Papi is again putting up MVP-style numbers”
    Write this on a rock – unless fat arse starts hitting his weight, he won’t win any MVP – count on it.
    “but if your inferiority complex led you to that conclusion, good for you…”
    Let’s not get into inferiority complexes – I would have to bring up manifestations of yours – like the “curse”
    “Mo, It made me feel not as bad as it likely made you feel when “Big Dumpy” killed you twice in 2004″
    I don’t think you want to go here either – history is not on your side…
    Look, mudslinging is silly. If I wanted that, I would go back to boston.com.
    Given the choice of Phillips or Millar, I think most of us would feel much more comfortable with Phillips – from looking at the list, it seems this stat might need tweaking…

    Anonymous July 28, 2006, 10:57 am
  • Paul,
    I’m a bit confused with your correlation about Giambi as an MVP in the context of last year’s results. He won the award 6 years ago, and Alex was not a defensive liability last year.
    You are using his fielding this year as in your argument. However, Giambi is fielding fewer that one out of two games. The year Giambi won his MVP (2000) with Oakland, he played 1B in about 5 out of 6 games on the season. From a cursory inspection of his numbers, he fielded his position passably, with 6 errors in 124 games. Frank Thomas, whom he defeated out in the voting, primarily DH’d that year.
    Giambi’s numbers were slightly better in most statistics, though he trailed slightly in RBIs. It is likely that Thomas’ DH status in 4 out of 5 games he played cost him the votes that may have tipped the MVP his way, but I suppose it is also possible that by your reasoning, Thomas was only close in the voting because of Giambi’s liabilities that season as a defender. I just can’t make that leap though.
    In addition, I would say that Giambi’s fielding certainly costs hits and runs, but that doesn’t equate to a significant number of lost games.

    attackgerbil July 28, 2006, 11:05 am
  • Oh come on, Papi’s batting average means exactly jack shyte since his production is actually UP with the absurd shift teams put on him to put his average down.
    Also, Giambi is not better at 1st than Papi, no chance.
    I’m not saying Papi would be a GG 1st baseman, but he’s serviceable.

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 11:08 am
  • Lockland, Check out Ortiz” stats when he played first last year. Face it, they both stink as first basemen, and are a liaibility when they play in the field.

    MoForPresident July 28, 2006, 11:16 am
  • In addition, I would add that with the numbers Ortiz is putting up this year, there will be continue to be no debate as to his being of MVP caliber this year. However, if the Twins continue winning at even close to the pace they have been over the last 50 games, and Joe Mauer continues to hit the way he is, the award may go to the catcher in Minnesota. In 2001, Giambi’s season was arguably better than his 2000 season, however he finished second in the voting to Ichiro whose torrid hitting spearheaded the Mariners to the all-time AL season wins record. That does not portend well for Ortiz this year.

    attackgerbil July 28, 2006, 11:18 am
  • Oh Mo, I agree with you, but any effort to say Giambi is a better 1st baseman is just laughable.

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 11:21 am
  • Also, I am predicting an absurd surge from Manny, you heard it hear first. :-)

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 11:23 am
  • Carlos Lee to the Rangers for Cordero, Mench, & Nix

    NeffSox July 28, 2006, 11:27 am
  • Few would argue that Ortiz is having an MVP “caliber” year. I’m willing to bet, though, that as a DH, he won’t win unless he gets his average to .300 or above.
    And Lockland, I’m NOT trying to say Giambi is a better first baseman. I’m just saying he’s not worse. They both stink!

    MoForPresident July 28, 2006, 11:29 am
  • Thankfully tonight we will have some games tonight.
    There are defensive liabilities to all teams. The value of whether the individual can add offensively to overshadwo that is the important factor.
    The ZRATE as identified above argues that it does not take into account certain issues. Would anyone honestly had thought last year that Manny would have had so many out field assists? The argument that Jeter’s range has diminished may or may not be true, however in a close game the guy makes the plays that makes grown men cry/cheer.

    Rob July 28, 2006, 11:29 am
  • Are we seriously having a Giambi vs. Papi defensive debate? Fastest turtle, anyone?

    YF July 28, 2006, 11:30 am
  • YF, dead on.

    Rob July 28, 2006, 11:30 am
  • Paul – how did A-Rod stack up as a third baseman last year? I think, according to Baseball Prospectus, his value to the Yanks in the field last year was, surprisingly, the same as his value once was as a SS.
    Now, whether the Yanks would have benefited from him over DJ at SS with a league-average 3rd base is another matter…

    Sam July 28, 2006, 11:30 am
  • YF,
    Maybe we should start calling you “big brother”? Yeesh

    MoForPresident July 28, 2006, 11:32 am
  • FWIW, I think Manny and Jeter are having better years than Ortiz. I’d vote for them as MVP’s over Big Papi who is also having a great year. Also, Hafner and Vernonn Wells are having better years as well.

    Nick-YF July 28, 2006, 11:33 am
  • With no games last night we see that this is starting to resemble the Donner Party. People are starting to eat the dead of thier own teams.

    Rob July 28, 2006, 11:33 am
  • Mo, I really don’t understand how you can’t see that Papi’s average it totally meaningless at this point.

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 11:43 am
  • A wild speculation as to why Manny has so many OF assists this year. His play is so poor people run on him every chance they get…he dekes them into trying for an extra base. That Manny, he’s a wily one!
    And Rob: spot on.

    yankeemonkey July 28, 2006, 11:44 am
  • I agree YM, I think that Manny has gotten very, very wily about playing the Monster.

    Rob July 28, 2006, 11:47 am
  • If AL MVP voting was today and I had a vote, the top three on my ballot would be:
    David Ortiz
    Justin Morneau
    Derek Jeter

    attackgerbil July 28, 2006, 11:48 am
  • Carlos Lee to the Rangers for Cordero/Nix/Mench…what does that accomplish for the Rangers, exactly? Not like they were starving for offense.

    yankeemonkey July 28, 2006, 11:54 am
  • Lockland,What I can or can’t see is not the issue – BA is not meaningless to the people who do the voting for these awards. THAT’S my point…

    MoForPresident July 28, 2006, 11:55 am
  • Milwaukee saves about 1 or 2 million bucks and picks up a reliever that may or may not be an upgrade from Derek Turnbow.
    Texas gets a big upgrade in left and a very good 1-6 batting order. It must be nice playing in the west some times. A .500 team and only two games out of first.

    attackgerbil July 28, 2006, 12:04 pm
  • Milwaukee saves about 1 or 2 million bucks and picks up a reliever that may or may not be an upgrade from Derek Turnbow.
    Texas gets a big upgrade in left and a very good 1-6 batting order. It must be nice playing in the west some times. A .500 team and only two games out of first.

    attackgerbil July 28, 2006, 12:04 pm
  • If you’re a real fan of the game, you have to agree
    Are you shitting me? Sorry for the inappropriateness, but eat a dick MFP.

    Mayday Malone July 28, 2006, 12:08 pm
  • If AL MVP voting was today and I had a vote, the top three on my ballot would be:
    David Ortiz
    Justin Morneau
    Derek Jeter

    Morneau ahead of Mauer? Really?

    Mayday Malone July 28, 2006, 12:09 pm
  • Mayday, What’s your problem? Disagree and tell me the reasons why, see a priest, whatever helps, but lose that crap, pal.

    MoForPresident July 28, 2006, 12:17 pm
  • Mayday, I thought for about five minutes on Mauer vs. Morneau, and whether I was penalizing Mauer for being a catcher in the sense his totals are lowered as the team will spell him every sixth or seventh game. I could flip flop pretty easily on that vote.

    attackgerbil July 28, 2006, 12:22 pm
  • http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/more/specials/fortunate50/index.html?cnn=yes
    Seperate issue, CNNSI has published who makes the most money in sports. The Yanks have 5 in the top 25. Somewhat of a shock to me is that Jeter makes more than AROD with endorsements factored in.

    Rob July 28, 2006, 12:30 pm
  • Mo, although I don’t agree with Mayday’s choice of words, I do agree with his point.
    I mean, to make a blanket statement like you made about the DH is kind of not cool, I know a lot of REAL fans that support the DH.

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 12:37 pm
  • Mo, my point is that the people that vote are smart enough to see past a meaningless stat like BA in the case of Ortiz.

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 12:39 pm
  • Lockland, those are the same people who voted Bartolo Colon over Rivera for Cy Young, so I wouldn’t be too sure about their smarts.

    yankeemonkey July 28, 2006, 12:41 pm
  • YM, true. I still have a little faith though.

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 12:43 pm
  • …but lose that crap, pal.
    I stand by my previous statement. Who, exactaly, are you to classify “real” fans? Get off your high horse you arrogant prick. I know (most) YFs are known for their arrogance, but there’s really no need to perpetuate the stereotype.
    As far as telling you reasons why, I’d be repeating what has already been stated above.

    Mayday Malone July 28, 2006, 12:49 pm
  • there I go, leaving the italics open.

    Mayday Malone July 28, 2006, 12:50 pm
  • Come on guys, let’s class this up a bit, both sides.

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 12:54 pm
  • there seems to be an assumption on this thread that Ortiz will be “robbed” of the MVP because of his DH status this year. What if he doesn’t win because there are a few players who are having better years than he is? Another DH, for instance, seems to be putting up better stats. Travis Hafner has a higher sluggling and OBP than Ortiz. Vernon Wells, who plays the most important position in the outfield, has a higher OBP and slugging and more steals than Ortiz. Joe Mauer plays C and has a higher OPS than Ortiz. Manny is also outperforming Ortiz in OBP and slugging. It’s odd that RSN doesn’t campaign more for Manny for MVP. To me, he’s more deserving. It’s almost criminal that a player like Ramirez hasn’t yet to win the MVP (unless I’m forgetting one.)
    I think if the season ended today, Ortiz would win the MVP. The voters like him. He’s charismatic, a great player, and the heart of the team, but I don’t think his performance relative to his peers warrants the award.

    Nick-YF July 28, 2006, 12:55 pm
  • Why are we all stuck on italics?

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 1:02 pm
  • Why are we all stuck on italics?
    Sorry- that was me
    “Come on guys, let’s class this up a bit, both sides.”
    Agreed. I will remain intolerant of pompous blowhards, though.

    Mayday Malone July 28, 2006, 1:07 pm
  • Regarding the italics.. I’ve emailed the management.

    attackgerbil July 28, 2006, 1:09 pm
  • I think it’s fixed now

    attackgerbil July 28, 2006, 1:28 pm
  • NOW it should be fixed. No more code on this thread!!!

    YF July 28, 2006, 1:35 pm
  • We need the games to start….everyone’s going batty over the layoff, it seems.

    yankeemonkey July 28, 2006, 1:57 pm
  • Mo, please, if you can’t act like an adult, just leave.
    I don’t HAVE to agree with anything you think to be a good fan of the game, and I completely agree with YF about disparaging terms toward the players. We’ve all heard “A-Fraud” enough times to stop laughing about it, and “Horse’s Ass” and “Big Dumpy” are offensive, period. If you can’t make an argument without disparaging people or setting yourself up as the grand guardian of the game, then I question the merits of your argument.
    AG: I’d forgotten how long ago Giambi’s MVP award was, so you’ve got a point there. Really, the point is, Ortiz is clearly no worse than Giambi in the field, yet if Giambi were putting up Ortiz’s numbers, I’d be willing to bet we wouldn’t hear any complaints from people arguing about whether defense plays a role.
    I agree with AG that Papi’s numbers and his walk-off hits and really his mystique are making him a lock for the MVP. As long as the Sox make the playoffs, and he hits 50 home runs (both appear likely right now considering the meltdown of the ChiSox) he will win the MVP. And a guy with 50 HR and 150 RBI isn’t exactly a poor MVP candidate — even if he is hitting “just” .290…
    Nick: Hafner plays for a going-nowhere team, and Wells won’t make the playoffs. The debate you’re starting there is whether the MVP is for the best player or for the most valuable, as the name implies. Players for winning/playoff teams with slightly worse stats consistently outperform their better-performing peers for noncontenders in MVP balloting.

    Paul SF July 28, 2006, 2:23 pm
  • Paul,
    ARod’s MVP in Texas in ’03? Weren’t they like 50 games out that season? I agree that players on winning teams generally get more attention, but you’re bound to get a good look if you totally dominate the competition. This year, because there’s really no one out-distancing themselves too much, you’re right that guys from contending teams will likely get more votes. Which is sad, really…Wells has been a one-man wrecking crew, he would be a very deserving MVP candidate; if the BJs even get anywhere close to the playoffs Wells is the reason why. Hence, most valuable.

    Anonymous July 28, 2006, 2:40 pm
  • While I was typing that, I thought of A-Rod, but his year — if I remember correctly — was a monster year, and even then, it was the subject of much debate (and a close vote, I think)… There are always exceptions, but players from winning teams almost always get more MVP votes (of course, that could be because winning teams have MVP-caliber players, but that’s another discussion)…

    Paul SF July 28, 2006, 2:43 pm
  • wanted to clarify that was not my post but I essentially agree. Still, it’s opening a can of worms to debate why a most valuable has to play on a play-off team. My feeling on the subject is that the best player, regardless of team, should win the MVP. I understand and respect the contrary view.
    But Paul, you didn’t address Mauer and Manny as possible better candidates for the award. What’s your opinion of those guys?

    Nick-YF July 28, 2006, 2:48 pm
  • That was me with the anon post, btw. Sorry.

    yankeemonkey July 28, 2006, 3:02 pm
  • I don’t think Mauer is as valuable as Santana or Liriano. The Twins are nothing without those guys, and I think between them and Morneau, the Twins vote is irreparably split.
    I’d love to see Manny win an MVP — and he might this year, if he goes on another two month tear like he did last year. He’s much better positioned for such a run this year… I guess that qualifies more as analysis on whether they can win, rather than whether they should.
    I do think Papi is more valuable to the Sox than Manny this year. Until now, I would have said the opposite. Ortiz is just mashing this year, even more than in the past, and you can tell what a lift he provides his club on- and off-field. His presence, particularly in the late innings, is simply unmatched in baseball, whether a product of perception or reality. Like I said earlier, Mauer isn’t even the MVP of his own team, so I can’t vote for him as league MVP.
    Assuming current trends hold, Jeter to me is a better MVP candidate than Mauer, and Wells is even better than Jeter — although my opinion’s a bit skewed by his killing of the Sox this year… I’d put Manny between Mauer and Jeter. Ortiz will win, and he should win.

    Paul SF July 28, 2006, 3:33 pm
  • “Who, exactaly, are you to classify “real” fans? Get off your high horse you arrogant prick.”
    “I will remain intolerant of pompous blowhards, though
    You get that worked up over someone just stating an opinion? Seek help, fast
    “I will remain intolerant of pompous blowhards, though

    MoForPresident July 28, 2006, 3:52 pm
  • “setting yourself up as the grand guardian of the game,”
    Maybe you should heed your own advice; grow up. People are going to say things you disagree with.
    “We’ve all heard “A-Fraud” enough times to stop laughing about it, and “Horse’s Ass” and “Big Dumpy” are offensive, period.”
    Don’t you think you’re being a bit hypocritical here, though. Maybe Pay Rod and A Fraud might be plain offensive on the other side of the fence.

    MoForPresident July 28, 2006, 3:58 pm
  • Mo, you didn’t state an opinion, you said anyone that didn’t agree with you wasn’t a real fan.
    An opion would be, “I feel that baseball with a DH isn’t real baseball.”
    Not…. “If you’re a real fan of the game, you have to agree.”
    That’s just crap and you know it.

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 4:09 pm
  • For the record, I hold a different opinion. The game changes for the good of the game. Dead ball era, ground rule doubles used to be home runs, infield fly rule, etc… It is my opinion that the game advance beyond the interest of having the pitcher hit, so the rules adjusted. I think, with the exception of maybe 2 pitchers, the game is less exciting with the 9 hole being an almost automatic out.

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 4:13 pm
  • Better yet, Paul why do you think the DH game is superior? I believe the oft stated opinion that when the DH came in, we lost a lot of the strategy and intrigue, such as pitchers pitching inside, the need for double switches, when to pull a starter for a pinch hitter, etc. A manager’s skills, or lack thereof were on constant display.

    MoForPresident July 28, 2006, 4:14 pm
  • MO, you used to be able to get people out by throwing the ball at them, if you hit them, they were out. Would you like to bring that rule back?

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 4:15 pm
  • Lockland, C’mon, cut me some slack. That is an opinion. OK; I feel that f you’re a real fan of the game, you have to agree. It’s not like I insulted anyone’s mother…

    MoForPresident July 28, 2006, 4:19 pm
  • So I’m not a real fan?
    OK Mo, while you’re at it, I’m curious, some of these old rules I’m throwing out (ground rule double/HR and hitting a person with the ball/out), did you even know about them?

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 4:21 pm
  • Mo, just so you know, it’s the arrogant guardianship of the game that annoys people, it annoys players and fans alike, the “how the game should be played” soap box has a way of rubbing people the wrong way.

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 4:23 pm
  • “MO, you used to be able to get people out by throwing the ball at them, if you hit them, they were out. Would you like to bring that rule back?”
    We disagree about the DH.

    MoForPresident July 28, 2006, 4:24 pm
  • ” it’s the arrogant guardianship of the game that annoys people”
    For Christ’s sake guy, it’s only a strongly held belief of mine, not ” arrogant guardianship of the game” Is that OK, to have an opinion?
    And can we please lose the personal attacks and get back to baseball?

    MoForPresident July 28, 2006, 4:28 pm
  • You said anyone that didn’t agree with you was not a real fan, that is arrogant.
    How is it so difficult for you to see that?

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 4:31 pm
  • Mo, it’s not that you were “just stating an opinion,” it’s that you started the opinion, then essentially said anyone who disagreed with it wasn’t a “real fan” of the game.
    That’s arrogant, and it’s off-putting, and it’s just plain wrong.

    Paul SF July 28, 2006, 4:31 pm
  • You called everyone that supports the DH not a real fan. How much more of a personal attack can you get?

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 4:32 pm
  • You know what, you fucking losers? An accepable respose would be ” I am a real fan of the game and I support the DH because…..” Not all this silly bullshit. It’s like arguing with a bunch of overly sensitive women on the rag…

    MoForPresident July 28, 2006, 4:39 pm
  • For the record, I love the hit the player with the ball rule, how cool would it be to see Manny drill somebody on their way between 2nd and 3rd?

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 4:39 pm
  • It’s silly to throw a flame like “you’re not a real fan if you like AL play better than NL play,” and then criticize those who get offended by saying, “What? I was just stating an opinion!” That’s downright hypocritical.
    I understand people will disagree with me. To disagree with me and say I’m not a real fan because of it pisses me off, especially when you apparently have no trouble calling baseball players “Horse’s Ass” and “Big Dumpy,” which is something the rest of us outgrew in middle school. I would argue that real fans of the game appreciate great players and have little use for disparaging them personally just because of the uniforms they wear…

    Paul SF July 28, 2006, 4:40 pm
  • Yay, now Mo uses misogyny to make his point! It gets better!

    Paul SF July 28, 2006, 4:41 pm
  • Anyway, this conversation clearly ended some time ago. I’m going to avoid inflaming it any further.

    Paul SF July 28, 2006, 4:41 pm
  • I gave you my reasons Mo and I did it without insulting anyone. You, on the other hand, do not have that ability.

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 4:42 pm
  • Seems Ed Wade of the Phillies didn’t stop in middle school either – he’s the one who coined “Horse’s Ass” in reference to Schilling. Why don’t you send him a reprimand you condescending bastard?

    MoForPresident July 28, 2006, 4:45 pm
  • “You know what, you fucking losers…”
    There you go MFP! That is how you convince people of your argument!
    Killing time before you start seventh grade? You’re doing a bang-up job of giving YFs everywhere a bad name.

    Mayday Malone July 28, 2006, 4:47 pm
  • “bastard” “fucking losers”
    What are you, 12 years old?
    Grow up man.

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 4:48 pm
  • Lockland, If that weak bullshit is all you can come up with, then maybe you need to ask yourself these fucking first grade questions, prick.
    ” I’m curious, some of these old rules I’m throwing out (ground rule double/HR and hitting a person with the ball/out), did you even know about them?”

    MoForPresident July 28, 2006, 4:48 pm
  • Mayday, you started that shit, you lousy SOB

    MoForPresident July 28, 2006, 4:49 pm
  • Mo, you notice none of us are lowering to your level?
    Learn from this, this is how adults talk.

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 4:51 pm
  • At this point, I’m wondering of Mo is a secret SF plant… Maybe it’s SF himself, trying to smear YFs everywhere! We haven’t seen SF around here lately… Hmmmm…

    Paul SF July 28, 2006, 4:51 pm
  • Guys, Guys, no fighting on the playground. What is it two, two and half hours to gametime? The lull between games is making everyone nuts. That said, “VLADI, VLADI, he likes to party, he don’t cause trouble; he don’t bother nobody.” -(Correction, doesn’t bother anyone except RSN when he starts crushing Lester’s fastballs over the Monstah’)

    bloodyank78 July 28, 2006, 4:51 pm
  • By the way Mo, Papelbon is better. :-)
    PLAY BALL!!!!!!!

    LocklandSF July 28, 2006, 4:58 pm
  • “Mayday, you started that shit, you lousy SOB”
    Aww- you’re sweet.
    “At this point, I’m wondering of Mo is a secret SF plant…”
    Nah. Just some dipshit wasting time in mommy’s basement.

    Mayday Malone July 28, 2006, 4:59 pm
  • GAAAHHHH, Mo, what is your problem? You *are* giving us YFs a black eye! No need to give SFs ammunition.
    What we need is an early game thread to take everyone’s mind off this silliness (including Lockland’s last post!).

    yankeemonkey July 28, 2006, 5:01 pm
  • LOL!! That last comment is gonna make Mo blow a frickin’ gasket Lockland.

    bloodyank78 July 28, 2006, 5:01 pm
  • Just rememeber, everyone will get a hug and medal at the end of this thread.
    My assumption of this Donner Party issue earlier was way off. This has definately turned into an Indonesian Government throwdown.

    Rob July 28, 2006, 5:05 pm
  • ROFLAO! Rob as soon as I read your post I pictured 40 or 50 guys in suits, bum-rushing a podium while throwing left hooks and roundhouse kicks.

    bloodyank78 July 28, 2006, 5:11 pm
  • This has not been a good day. No game last night has turned some bad issues today. People are turning on each other like it is not funny.
    Hopefully tonight will be better for everyone. There definately needs to be a better plan in place for the next time both teams have a union agreement to the same night off.

    Rob July 28, 2006, 5:14 pm
  • Can’t we all unite to make fun of the Cubs or something?…

    yankeemonkey July 28, 2006, 5:19 pm
  • I agree YM, after today I honestly would have pitied a BJ fan who may have accidently stepped in on this thread. Those poor individuals would have been slaughtered.

    Rob July 28, 2006, 5:22 pm

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