Pete’s Got The Juice: Jeter Comments

From the LoHud Yankees Blog:

“I’m flattered and honored to have been considered for the American League Most Valuable Player Award. I want to congratulate Justin Morneau on this well-deserved honor. He is a special player, and I suspect this won’t be the last time you will hear his name mentioned when awards are being passed out.”

Classy. Sterile? Maybe. Certain: Jeter’s Got Grace.

82 comments… add one
  • Reading between the lines: “That’s a totally f*ing bullsh*t award. Morneau? To paraphrase Borat, I’ll see you in Cooperstown—NAHT!”

    YF November 21, 2006, 8:08 pm
  • …this may not be what he’s saying in the privacy of his own home with his closest [girl]friends, but it is a nicely orchestrated response nonetheless…he’d get battered either way: responding like this, or if he whined about all the power guys, the ones without intangibles, getting all the glory…i prefer this style even if it is boring and doesn’t stir any controversy…besides who cares about awards, he gets the hot chicks…does anybody still believe that “chicks dig the long ball”?…

    dc November 21, 2006, 8:12 pm
  • Chicks dig the long ball… but also helps if you make 20 million a year!

    Lar November 21, 2006, 8:41 pm
  • I Have a Dream
    I have a dream that all people will be treated equally.
    I have Dream Someday the Yankees will win another world series
    I have dream All Yankees Haters and bashers treat Yankees respect
    I have a dream someday jeter would win Mvp
    I have a dream that people would lay down their differences and be friends.
    I have a dream that people will respect themselves and others.
    I have a dream hunger will end and that peace will begin.
    I have a dream that my dreams will become your dreams too.
    I have a dream.

    Felix November 21, 2006, 9:58 pm
  • Jeter doesn’t deserve any praise because his PR firm issues meticulously worded press releases (the “I suspect… sentence is way too crafted to have been spoken by anyone) in order to maintain their client’s image. I don’t think better or worse of Jeter, a totally class act, because of a statement like this. Let’s not kid ourselves: this is nothing more than a canned press release.

    SF November 21, 2006, 10:53 pm
  • Agreed, Jeter’s PR people script his responses & off he goes. He did not deserve to win. Boo Hoo to Yanks fans. He did not deserve MVP either!!!!!! how many errors did he make ?
    I have a dream that the Yankee’s will self destruct yet again in 2007!!!!!!!!

    lee-visor November 21, 2006, 11:10 pm
  • “I suspect this won’t be the last time you will hear his name mentioned when awards are being passed out.”
    How many awards are left?
    I guess he’s talking career-wise. Don’t most second-place finishgers just say congratulations and move on without press releases? I don’t remember a big Albert Belle statement in 1995 or a Pedro statement in 1999 or even a Papi statement in 2005 (I guess he made his in August instead).
    Seems a brief, “This is his day, not mine. No comment.” would work a lot better — especially considering Jeter’s bound to get bashed by antagonists (like me) no matter what he says.

    Paul SF November 21, 2006, 11:15 pm
  • Yeah. Jetes should definitely have looked up the Albert Belle response. Excellent model.

    YF November 21, 2006, 11:19 pm
  • Hey, I’m sure those Trick-or-Treaters deserved it. They probably had nothing left to play for…

    Paul SF November 22, 2006, 12:08 am
  • …that didn’t take long…i said he was going to get clobbered no matter what he said or how he said it…now he’s being accused of not even speaking his own words…so predictable…

    dc November 22, 2006, 12:28 am
  • lee-visor,
    In your dream, do you see the 2007 Yankees self-destructing a la 2006 Red Sox? Looking up at Toronto from third place? Cause that would really suck.

    bloodyank78 November 22, 2006, 1:19 am
  • Don’t most second-place finishgers just say congratulations and move on without press releases?
    Paul, I doubt most second-place finishers get hammered by journalists with questions as to what their position is about not winning the award the way Jeter likely is this year.

    attackgerbil November 22, 2006, 4:49 am
  • Felix, most people read more than one blog. Cutting and pasting your comments to multiple blogs is lazy, even if you think your comment is really clever and want to seek maximum exposure. Personally, I’m of the opinion that trying to leverage your pro-yankee sentiments via a parody of Dr. King’s landmark speech lacks perspective.

    attackgerbil November 22, 2006, 5:01 am
  • Look, I don’t mean to denigrate Jeter here, and I certainly don’t think there’s anything wrong with issuing a statement – I agree with YF, the Belle-route isn’t exactly tried and true. But I don’t think there’s any reason to give Jeter any extra “credit” for this statement, since it’s so clearly a canned response. It was probably ready even before the award was given, as was one about Big Papi (“he’s a great player, and his love of the game is infectious”, or some crap like that), or anyone who won if it wasn’t Jeter. Saying this indicates any “grace” on Jeter’s part is giving way too much credit to this clearly vapid press release (which, to be fair, Jeter may have had little to do with, it was probably the work of his agent and PR firm). Jeter had the grace without it.

    SF November 22, 2006, 6:45 am
  • …safe to assume jeter has the final say on what goes in his “canned” statements…so if jeter’s pr firm had advised him to start getting controversial because his comments are perceived as too dull and predictable, and say something like “…the voters are full of crap, and morneau could never perform at that level under the hot lights of ny..blah…”, would you sf’s criticize jeter or the pr firm?…

    dc November 22, 2006, 10:26 am
  • SF, Why not jettison the passive-aggressive, left handed compliment approach – go ahead and rip Jeter. You obviously have a problem with what you believe to be a canned statement. I don’t think AG is suggesting DJ should get any “extra credit”.

    Andrews November 22, 2006, 11:04 am
  • Andrews, no reason to bring left handed people in to this.
    I’m pretty sure Jeter is screwed either way with this, sucks to be a millionaire sleeping with hot women and traveling everywhere by private jet.
    My heart weeps for him and his awful predicaments.

    LocklandSF November 22, 2006, 11:23 am
  • Ortiz is left-handed, right?

    Andrews November 22, 2006, 11:31 am
  • ” say something like “…the voters are full of crap, and morneau could never perform at that level under the hot lights of ny..blah…”
    Or maybesomething like this (to paraphrase), “My chances of winning are zero. Let him hit in this lineup, and see how good he would be…”
    That would be a real breath of fresh air. Classy.

    Andrews November 22, 2006, 11:34 am
  • Andrews:
    I have an issue with the canned nature of the release, not with Jeter. I say as much. There’s nothing backhanded or passive aggressive about it. Stop trying to read more into what I have written than what I have written. In this case, I can’t be any clearer with my opinions.
    Sometimes I wonder if YFs have this reflex to turn anything positive said about someone like Jeter (or anyone on the Yanks) into a lie or a “backhanded compliment”. Sometimes it’s just a compliment. It’s like we aren’t worthy of offering praise, since we aren’t one of you. It’s tiresome.

    SF November 22, 2006, 11:46 am
  • Though you protest to the contrary, if you have a problem with the release, then you have a problem with Jeter. While you laud his class, etc, you clearly imply that it is all a carefully packaged product of the media. You are certainly worthy of offering praise, but it seems in this instance, you’re just riding the fence. One way or the other, please.

    Andrews November 22, 2006, 11:54 am
  • SF, you clearly want to rip Jeter and your opinion is somewhat roundabout. You and many other Yankee-haters love to backhandedly slight Jeter for his manicured public image. Of course it puts him a lose-lose position. As stated earlier, he didn’t run after the press to make a statement on the decision, they came to him because it was a close vote and a controversial outcome. Also, you have no clue who wrote the statement. Based upon his flawless history with the media in the clubhouse, I don’t think it’s a stretch to contend that he has the mental abilities to write his own statements. And of course, as with most Red Sox fans, there is mind-numbing hypocrisy:
    “I don’t think better or worse of Jeter, a totally class act, because of a statement like this.”
    Duh, you think of him as a class act BECAUSE of many dignified and non-controversial statements like that over the years. You and I know that if he’d reacted any differently you’d be talking about what d+ck he is and how you’ve known it all along.
    BTW, do you even know who his PR firm is? Or were you just trying to sound like you were in the know?

    lp November 22, 2006, 12:04 pm
  • That makes little sense, Andrews. This isn’t a zero sum game.
    When A-Rod issues statements like this he takes heaps of abuse (lots of it justified) for being hyper-managed and self-awáre. When Jeter does It he’s lauded for his “grace”. I think that’s revealing, and something of an inconsistency. It’s not that what was contained in the press release wasn’t accurate, it’s that it comes off as nothing more than image-management, which I find vapid, not laudatory. This is true whether the release comes from a Yankee or a Red Sox. This is a peeve of mine, no matter the uniform.

    SF November 22, 2006, 12:08 pm
  • I think some of you YF’s are trying too hard to see implied venom towards Jeter in SF’s statements. All he’s saying is “Jeter is a standup guy and good ballplayer, but prepared sterile responses from an athlete’s PR Firm sucks balls.” That simple. Lay off SF, he’s not trying to be backhanded.

    bloodyank78 November 22, 2006, 12:32 pm
  • No, it’s not a zero sum game, but your position allows you to rip Jeter no matter what; I suspect that is your true motivation for posting on this subject.

    Andrews November 22, 2006, 12:35 pm
  • “but prepared sterile responses from an athlete’s PR Firm sucks balls”
    Seems to me that a prepared statement, as opposed to countless interviews based on the controversy and his fame, keeps the focus on Morneau, the winner.

    Andrews November 22, 2006, 12:49 pm
  • bloody,
    This isn’t the first and only time this issue has come up.
    SF, your position has some elements of insincerity. You claim Jeter is a class-act but criticize the sterile statements that you’ve based your opinion on. Either you don’t believe him to be truly a class act or you don’t believe that his statements are worthy of criticism.
    I personally feel that, deep down, like all Yankee-haters, you hate it that Jeter is a class act, but can’t land any punches. So you will passively knock him like you’re doing here.
    To put it all in perspective, I don’t need to be passive with respects to Ortiz. His comments, months after the fact, proved him to be a classless loser. And even in the face of that pedestrian garbage Jeter still rose above it. That must really burn you up.
    Relative to al the sludge that calls themselves PROFESSIONAL athletes, those that hit their wives, shoot their mouths off in the press, get arrested, sell drugs on the side, drink and drive, punch out fans in the stands, assault cameramen, etc., Jeter is an example as to how ballplayers should conduct themselves. But for you, his sterility is grounds for criticism. Amazing. And it could only come from a Yankee-hater.
    If you want tabloid trash to criticize, you should look no further than your patron saint David Ortiz.

    lp November 22, 2006, 12:58 pm
  • this is kinda sad juston morneau wasnt even the MVP of HIS team
    there were others on his team that were better like santana and mauer
    heck, i would have been happier if big papi had gotten the award instead of MORNEAU…

    yankeeboy November 22, 2006, 1:19 pm
  • I personally feel that, deep down, like all Yankee-haters, you hate it that Jeter is a class act, but can’t land any punches.
    No, I don’t. This is entirely your own imagination. I have knocked Jeter’s fielding, I have knocked his occasional bouts of muteness, but I have never, ever, thought Jeter an unclassy athlete. Stop trying to fabricate my opinions please, stick to your own.

    SF November 22, 2006, 2:01 pm
  • Jeter’s press release, which was certainly required due to the amount of inflammatory discussion being thrown around yesterday by ESPN and other news outlets, with every newshound staking their position and clamoring for a quote from him, does comes off as somewhat sterile (vapid’s pretty harsh) but I think it’s intention was to be placate and respectful of Morneau. I’ll grant there is some image management, but it’s a _good_ image, and it’s trying to douse controversy by respecting the system and step aside for Morneau to enjoy his moment. The inherent message was consistent with everything he has said throughout the season. I find that consistency graceful, even though I myself have taken a poke at his “manicured” personality on several occasions.
    Regarding the inconsistency with ARod’s treatment vs. Jeter’s treatment, I think Jeter has taken plenty of heat regarding his alleged lack of support for ARod. And look how much static he and Ortiz both took over something as innocuous in my opinion as “try and hit in this lineup” vs. “we still have something to play for.” That said, of course Jeter isn’t getting the same kind of static as ARod. He had a better year. He’s also much better at staying between the lines when dealing with the press than ARod, who has the gift of being awkwardly, vocally introspective. Jeter doesn’t always get a pass. Don’t forget the boos Jeter heard during his 2004 dismal start and everyone was trying to figure out what was wrong with him.
    Writers and bloggers seem to always be looking for a hair in a ball of dough. Why tar this guy just because he is putting out a fire?

    attackgerbil November 22, 2006, 2:02 pm
  • Gerb, your points are reasonable. My interest is not to tar Jeter (whatever lots of YFs might think), it’s to tar STUPID PRESS RELEASES that are used as evidence of candidness. This release, like almost every formal press release offered up by any PR firm as if it were “out of the mouth” of the player, serves little purpose other than to get the media off his back. This I understand. But to use it as evidence of anything character-wise is an error. This release was done for expediency, nothing else.
    To repeat, this has nothing to do with Jeter.
    As for Ortiz, I think lp is stating things, uh, a tad extremely, regarding Ortiz’s character. As for my position on his MVP comments, please search the archives and you will see that I was a SF who thought his rant about the MVP race clueless, stupid, and unnecessary, and said as much, without prodding.

    SF November 22, 2006, 2:09 pm
  • His comments, months after the fact, proved him to be a classless loser.
    Wow. I think it’s safe to say no one was happier than lp when Ortiz made those misguided remarks. How long have you been waiting to use that gem, lp?

    Paul SF November 22, 2006, 2:14 pm
  • SF, you clearly want to rip Jeter and your opinion is somewhat roundabout. You and many other Yankee-haters love to backhandedly slight Jeter for his manicured public image.
    Duh. He’s a SOX FAN! He, like the rest of us, feel that DJ is a great player but falls way short of the pedestal he’s put on by you guys.

    Brad November 22, 2006, 2:15 pm
  • Getting shot at from all parts here. Brad, I really, honestly have no issue with the idea of the press release, or with Jeter himself. I have issue with Gerb’s use of it as evidence of “grace”. To me it’s as much evidence of the origins of the universe as it is evidence of “grace”. Press releases are typically done by PR firms, done with approval of a client, but not written by said client. I know this because I have worked with PR firms. These things are written by professional writers, sometimes former copywriters in advertising or even journalists, and in the case of sports athletes, the content is probably advised by managers and agents as buffers between the PR firm and the athlete, whose time is far more valuable.

    SF November 22, 2006, 2:24 pm
  • SF, I’ve been reading and posting on this site for some time. Whether you realize it or not, you and many others have a transparent pattern with respects to Jeter. I’f I’m wrong, please explain why you hate the sterile statements, but at the same time, admire Jeter for being a class act. Such admiration can only come from his public statements since you don’t know him personally. Your commentary at face value makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. That’s why people are reading between the lines. And this isn’t the first time.
    So to review your stated positions:
    If Jeter says nothing (“Jeter’s muteness”), you knock him.
    If he says something bland and sterile but gracious, you knock him.
    And door number three, the Ortiz route, would obviously attract condemnation from most reasonable people.
    There is absolutely nothing new or novel about your methods here. It’s straight from the Yankee-hater playbook. We all know that if Jeter had said something colorful but still gracious, you’d be whining about how he stole the spotlight from the actual winner.
    And please re-read the statement of mine that you just quoted. It isn’t my contention that you think Jeter to be unclassy. It’s that you hate that he IS a class act. Huge difference.

    lp November 22, 2006, 2:28 pm
  • SF: I agree that the press release itself had nothing to do with the class or grace of Jeter, two things you and I have already agreed that he has in abundance without need of publication.
    I also agree that prepared written statements and press releases alike serve as little more than spin control, even in the cases of the tearful mea culpa.

    attackgerbil November 22, 2006, 2:29 pm
  • You are a mighty cynic, lp. You apparently get off on thinking Ortiz a classless scum, so it’s not surprising that you assume that we all wish our rivals were like what you say Ortiz embodies. The fact that you hyperbolize w/r/t Ortiz is a dead giveaway that you are pretty full of it, that your opinions are extreme.
    FYI, my favorite two Yankees (hard to admit, but yes, I do like some of their players) for the last decade have been Joe Torre and Bernie Williams, two complete class acts. The fact that you assume that a Sox fan wishes Jeter (who is intelligent and classy, if a bit of a cipher) weren’t classy reveals an amazingly cynical worldview, and not mine.

    SF November 22, 2006, 2:37 pm
  • I’m going to defend SF here, mostly. The press release was obviously canned, and therefore we can’t gauge its sincerity. We all know that image maintenance is hugely important to Jeter; and that’s what he’s doing here, at the expense of being candid. But let’s keep in mind that this has ALWAYS been a knock on Jeter. The “press” may love Jeter in a fawning, adulatory way, but the truth is that the guys in the press who cover the team really don’t know him or have access to him at all–they don’t “love” him the way they loved a guy who could be depended upon for a great, meaningful quote (say, David Cone). Jeter has always insulated himself from the press. That insulation is why he’s able to maintain that Olympian dignity and apartness. But it does not allow us access into the “real” Jeter, whoever that is.

    YF November 22, 2006, 2:37 pm
  • Brad,
    My personal feelings about DJ are generally indifferent until I read some of the garbage that some of you guys sling. The less crap that actually sticks to him the more desperate your attempts are. They are very annoying, smell of jealousy and don’t come from an informed place whatsoever.

    lp November 22, 2006, 2:37 pm
  • YF: I agree with you completely.

    SF November 22, 2006, 2:39 pm
  • Whoops, accidentally cut myself off before i finished.
    ….What we get with Jeter is only what he wants us to have, and that is an ideal. That he has so ably managed to orchestrate this image while performing so brilliantly….that’s part of the genius and greatness of Jeter. SF might not appreciate it, and it is, in a way, frustrating. But, that’s Jeter.

    YF November 22, 2006, 2:43 pm
  • I think “genius” might be hyperbolizing, but that’s subjective. Einstein was a genius. Jeter is smart, clever, and seems to know what the shark tank is filled with.

    SF November 22, 2006, 2:48 pm
  • Jeter’s position on the MVP was known before the PR. It’s fun to sit and speculate about how he may “really feel” about coming in second for the award, but it’s ultimately pointless; he’s told us what he thinks, or at least what he wants us to think he thinks, and what does it bloody matter if there is a difference between the two?
    Of course much of that same press who “loves” a guy like Coney also loves a guy like Sheff who will give a great, meaningful quote that will involve lighting someone’s hair on fire and put it out with a hammer. Not every writer, but some love players only in the way a remora loves a shark.

    attackgerbil November 22, 2006, 2:50 pm
  • SF, are actually accusing me, a Yankee fan, of being cynical towards a Red Sox fan with a straight face?
    Ortiz showed his colors with his comments. If it were A-Rod, you’d be saying the same thing, so come off of your self-righteousness please. And I’m not assuming “a Sox fan” I’m speaking to you directly based upon your commentary on your site and exchanges we’ve had in the past.
    BTW, “classless LOSER” was my assesment, not “scum”. And yes, it gives me some degree of pleasure in that it illustrates your hypocracy. Everytime you want to knock Jeter for saying little or nothing at all, we’ll have Papi’s voice to point to as a shining example of how ballplayers should handle disappointment. A fine standard for your kids to follow, eh.
    And YF, is the “real Jeter” any of our business? And if it was, would you ever know that person? Or would you just be given that impression by the media? Keep in mind, we’re talking about someone you’ve never met, who has never confided in you and with whom you have no common friends.
    I just care about what he does on the field. It’s what I can see for myself. It’s what I pay for and that’s what he’s paid for. I have a life of my own full of both both good and evil characters I don’t need an athlete presented through a journalist’s prism.
    Furthermore I don’t think the media can accurately illustrate the inner workings of any of it’s targets. They have a story to write and in most cases, it’s a simple one with a clear conclusion. The mass media has always struggled with any notion of complexity in the human psyche. And often, articulateness is mistaken for sincerity.
    I admire Jeter for being a ballplayer and not a sideshow. If we come to a point to where we’re disappointed because there’s no spicy material, perhaps we have too much media competing for the same story.

    lp November 22, 2006, 2:59 pm
  • Most overrated player ever. Classy PR release. Sure. Handles himself well with the media. You bet. Annual leader of a an overrated Yankee team. Of course. Always gives his best effort. No doubt. Deserving of respect. Certainly. Most Valuable Player in the entire league? No chance. How many errors did he make this year? How many RBIs? How many runs scored? Do the Yankees make it to the postseason without him? (of course they do) Bottom line, Jeter has a great PR crew who almost got him an award that he does not deserve. Not bashing Jeter here Yankee fans, just saying it like it is.

    Manny's Mission November 22, 2006, 2:59 pm
  • SF, proof of genius: Biel.

    attackgerbil November 22, 2006, 3:02 pm
  • Most overrated player ever
    External to the player and a meaningless statement.
    How many errors did he make this year?
    15 -> .975 FP
    How many RBIs?
    97 hitting from the 2 slot
    How many runs scored?
    He led the team with 118.
    Do the Yankees make it to the postseason without him? (of course they do)
    That’s hypothetical and debateable. Jeter led the AL with 33 win shares but the Yankees’ pythagorean variance was a record this year. His VORP led all the AL. The Yanks took the east by ten games over Toronto. I think it would have been mighty close if Nick Green and Miguel Cairo were our middle infield for much of the summer.

    attackgerbil November 22, 2006, 3:35 pm
  • you got that right, AG

    Brad November 22, 2006, 3:35 pm
  • I think it would have been mighty close if Nick Green and Miguel Cairo ..
    Clearly, those guys are terrible. Punch in a couple average middle infielders there, and your answer is different, AG.

    Brad November 22, 2006, 3:45 pm
  • Uh, Manny…
    “Not bashing Jeter here Yankee fans, just saying it like it is.”
    This is one of those laugh out loud throw-away comments that are supposed to somehow make your comments objective, so after exaggerating and casually blastly Jeter as essentially a player with very limited skills, but tries REALLY hard, you are simply telling it like it is…there is zero objectivity in your comments. Everything about the Yankees is overrated? How many times have they won the division in a row…oh, no Championships. True, but I am of the camp that luck has as much to do with the playoffs as skill, and the true skill in baseball is getting a chance in October. After that, all bets are off…just look at the carousel of teams that have won it in recent history including an 83 win Cardinals team. No Jeter is not DiMaggio, but the guy is on pace to break some Yankee records, especially when it comes to hits (kind of an important offensive stat) that would put him among the games elites. Is the guy Mantle, of course not, but he’s not David Eckstein either…

    Jrirish November 22, 2006, 3:46 pm
  • Brad, you’re right regarding average replacment vs. Green/Cairo. I realize that if Jeter had been lost for a significant length of time ala Matsui/Sheff, sure Cash would have tried to do something to shore up the middle infield.
    I remember a very vivid waking nightmare when Jeter got drilled on the hands early in June and missed a couple games (and got the flu). It would have been a much different season for NY had he been out in June/July, which was their toughest month. And I do not discount the benefit to NY paid by the the Soxes’ bizarre rash of injuries.

    attackgerbil November 22, 2006, 4:02 pm
  • What’s frustrating to me about Jeter I suppose isn’t how meticulously he manages his image — it’s that the mainstream sports media members eat it up. Which isn’t really Jeter’s fault, but it doesn’t make me like him any better.
    That’s my honest assessment of why I, as a Sox fan, respect him as a player and loathe his very essence. Ortiz, even when screwing up this summer, remains likable and, yes, classy because he at least gives off the impression of being open and honest and a truly nice guy who loves his job.

    Paul SF November 22, 2006, 4:31 pm
  • I’ll tell you exactly what happened here. Gerb posted a complimentary thread on Jeter as being gracious in defeat, and SF, in one of his nitpicking moods, and who just doesn’t mind taking issue with anything complimentary said about the Yanks if it suits his mood on that particular day, just couldn’t let it go buy without showering it with a little denigration, coming up with the almost irrelevant point of whether Jeter’s press release was authored by himself or someone else. And it’s turned into a fullblown discussion. This horse was not worth beating to death, but it’s been done. Much ado about nothing. SF, hope you’ve had fun trying to clarify your benign little comment on Jeter’s PR. Hey Gerb, bet you weren’t expecting all this horse shit to be flying around when you started that thread.

    whatever November 22, 2006, 4:37 pm
  • Whatever,
    While I know that posting on these threads is primarily based on differing opinions and statistical debates, it’s also part of what makes blogging such a great sport.
    Having said that, I’m flattered and honored to have my post considered for such and in-depth discussion. I want to congratulate SF on his well-argued position regarding press releases not reflecting on the player. He is a special poster, and I suspect this won’t be the last time you will hear his name mentioned in disagreement with my opinion.
    You’ve read me write it a thousand times, but rooting for the World Series to be won by New York Yankees continues to be my main focus. There is no individual post or comment that can compare with a championship trophy, and I look forward to working towards that challenge again in 2007.

    attackgerbil November 22, 2006, 4:49 pm
  • It is interesting that despite the fact that YF, Gerb, and I all mostly agree on what I stated in my comment, a couple of of our readers, particularly irritable YFs, want to make my initial comment into something it is not, and about something which they cannot prove with the words I have written. What I am being charged with by lp and WE, trying to take down Jeter, and that I am some sort of hypocrite because of something David Ortiz said, is both impossible to substantiate and a non sequitir. They are either missing the point entirely or are ignoring the facts of this thread out of convenience.
    And lp, I notice you don’t deny your worldview as I characterized it. That’s good to know.

    SF November 22, 2006, 4:51 pm
  • note: I’m serious about SF’s position being well-argued regarding character relevence and PRs. I thought about it for quite a bit.

    attackgerbil November 22, 2006, 4:52 pm
  • lol, AG. Took me about halfway through that to realize something wasn’t quite right.

    Paul SF November 22, 2006, 5:05 pm
  • Yeah, that was good.

    Brad November 22, 2006, 5:11 pm
  • I hate to jump in when it looks like things are calming down…
    But…
    LP, it’s absurd that you judge the totality of Ortiz’s character based on ONE misguided statement, especially since you don’t know the context of the question that fueled the statement. Look at Ortiz’s body of work with the media and I think you will see that he’s not the classless loser you think he is. It’s really pathetic of you to make such a broad statement based on a one time incident when all other evidence points to the contrary.

    LocklandSF November 22, 2006, 5:26 pm
  • Now SF, I didn’t say you were trying to take down Jeter. You had some decent things to say about him. But I did noticed that you couldn’t quite let that praise given to Jeter by Gerb go by without a small, ever so slight dig that Jeter shouldn’t be given credit for that PR because it was obviously canned. And that small, moot point was the basis for many opinions and much debate, and that was what I found a little interesting and slightly ludicrous.
    And how do you really know that Jeter didn’t have a hand in what was said? He sounded just like he has on dozens of live interviews I’ve seen of him, thanking mlb for being a part of it, praising his opponent, restating that team goals are much more important than individual awards, etc. It sounded just like him.
    But for you to disparage him in that weak fashion, (and I’m not saying it was a cheap shot or anything), in my opinion, is grasping at straws, and I know you can do much better.

    whatever November 22, 2006, 6:16 pm
  • WE: your email address link doesn’t work.

    attackgerbil November 22, 2006, 6:31 pm
  • Gerb, Try that one.

    whatever November 22, 2006, 6:39 pm
  • gerb, you’re the gracious one, no matter what inane, moronic opinion is advanced on either side of an issue, you remain patient and courteous…bless you…but, i respectfully submit that sf is dead wrong this time…
    brad, thanks for confirming something i’ve been saying all along…all sf’s opinions of the yankees, and especially jeter are jaded by the fact that you’re sox fans…i know sf will lecture me about godwin’s theory, but let’s face it, if jeter was a sox you’d be kissing his behind right now…frankly, i’m tired of sf’s pompous, self-righteous bs…he runs and hides when someone calls him out with a better argument, then resurfaces with a new thread about a different topic…not sure why he hung around this long, except he’s been getting some encouragement from other posters…he never answered my question about who he’d roast [jeter or the pr firm] if the alleged pr firm had “advised” jeter to rant and rave [a la ortiz] about the dopey voters and how much tougher he has it in ny than the other guys…my point was that jeter probably approves everything spoken or written in his name…the specific words don’t matter, it’s the intent…i wonder if sf has the same criticism of shilling…the guy always seems to say the right thing…one thing sf’s are consistent about is that they don’t give any praise to non-sox without deducting a few points, just because…so predictable…
    yf, when did you become such an sf lackey…this is the second time in as many days that you defended the indefensible…how the hell do you know the release was “obviously canned”…are you suggesting that the man is uneducated and incapable of drafting his own coherent and sincere statement…shame on you…
    manny’s mission, if you don’t know the facts, best to keep quiet…[thanks for setting mm straight gerb]…
    lockland, crawl back under your rock…who asked you to chime in?…

    dc November 22, 2006, 9:45 pm
  • lockland, crawl back under your rock…who asked you to chime in?…
    DC, no one has to ask someone to chime in here – it’s a blog open to anyone who can type. LocklandSF has as much right to offer his opinion, no matter how biased and unfounded it may be, just as you are afforded the same right (and never miss a chance to do so).
    SF makes valid arguments in this post, just as you counter with valid arguments. It’s you that take what he say’s and twists it around to sound how you want. He clearly said that he has no problem with Jeter over and over, but for whatever reason, it’s not good enough for you. FWIW, the statement was released through a third party. I know this because Mike Francessa had this same conversation with a caller today, which he informed the guy of such. At no point did anyone “assume” Jeter wasn’t smart enough to do it, he just doesn’t have to.
    On another issue, I’m glad that I had to confirm that we, as Sox fans, hold a bias towards our own team, and don’t especially care to take part in the Yankee love fest when it rears it’s ugly head. It’s never been a secret. Of course we’d love Jeter if he was on our team. We stand up for guys like Manny Ramirez, dude. You stood up for Sheffield this year – do you do that if he’s not a Yankee? No way.
    Comparing Schilling to Jeter is way off base. Schilling is a guy who’s stumped for Presidents, DC. He has an opinion on everything under the sun, and he expresses it when he wants. He also serves as his own agent, PR manager, and everything else under the sun. It’s apples and oranges, and while I see your overall point, it’s not a valid one to suggest the similarities between the two guys when they are clearly polar opposites.
    FWIW, I’ve seen SF completely destory guys on this site in an argument and he doesn’t run and hide from the counter arguments, but sometimes, like with you, it’s better to just avoid it altogether. On some matters, like Jeter for instance, it’s never going to go anywhere. We think he’s clearly overrated and you don’t. We think Ortiz is the more deserved MVP candidate over A-Rod, and you don’t. It’s our nature, so let’s avoid the childish name calling and degrading remarks. We’re all as entiteled as you on any issue at all.
    Also, pointing to Ortiz as anything other than a great guy with the press and other players is childish. His argument was just the same as the argument we’ve been lamenting over for the past two days: in order for him (or Jeter) to win a major award they have to run away with the stats, and neither did it.
    No matter what we think, there is a huge NY and Boston bias around this country, and NY is the only place Jeter isn’t thought of as overrated and egotistical. His press release did nothing to help either of those issues. Pretending that the award meant nothing to him is a just a big of a slap in the face as Ortiz saying how much it meant to him. Get my point, buddy?

    Brad November 22, 2006, 10:11 pm
  • dc, thank you for the confidence, but I really think this is a thread that splits hairs. We have taken a non-issue to it’s ultimate extent with several arguments that were eloquent and studied, and that in and of itself is evidence that I would trust “friends and enemies” on every angle in this debate to vote for MVP rather than the writers. Long lost, but still relevant, mine was for David Ortiz. What he did was absolutely remarkable, though Jeets and several other players could have won it without argument from yours truly.
    When do pitchers and catchers report?

    attackgerbil November 22, 2006, 10:21 pm
  • seriously.

    Brad November 22, 2006, 10:23 pm
  • “NY is the only place Jeter isn’t thought of as overrated and egotistical.”
    This is one of the stupidest, most idiotic pieces of garbage I’ve ever seen babbled out here.

    whatever November 22, 2006, 11:37 pm
  • Whatever: I’ll pretend that you don’t actually think that.
    In reality, the rest of the country doesn’t view our beloved Red Sox and Yankee players the same way we do. In fact, most of my family and friends are not from the Red Sox cloth, but are huge baseball fans. Wanna know what they all have in common? Pointing out to me that my team, like yours, is surrounded by hundreds of millions of dollars worth of talent and it ruins baseball.
    Jeter, while a great player, is viewed as very overrated from fans not associated with the Yankees or Red Sox. Just as Ortiz is viewed as half a player and not worth the hype.
    I know you admire Jeter, just as I admire Ortiz, but that’s where it stops. Can you imagine trying to point out to a White Sox fan that Jeter deserved the MVP over Jermaine Dye? It’s not going to fly anywhere but here: check the stats.
    Listen, there’s no sense in taking what I said out of context, and lowering yourself (if possible on this one) to degrading remarks about my post. I know it stings, and isn’t at all true, but it’s accurate. There is a whole world of fans that hink Michael Young, Travis Haffner, A-Rod, Ichiro, and others are better players than Jeter, and that’s a fact.
    If Jeter played on a losing team with a small payroll, like say, the Mariners, he’d be viewed in the same light as Ichiro – but he doesn’t. He’s surrounded by all-star players who make tons of money and the rest of the baseball world hates that. It’s nothing more than pure jealousy, but that doesn’t change the fact.
    So, please spare the comments about something that is clearly undisputed. If you don’t believe me, why do you think Jeter was ranked as the most overrated player in SI this year? It’s not a mistake – every player and fans of those players think that if they were in Jeter’s shoes, they’d be just as successful.
    Don’t you think Texas fans think Michael Young is just as good as Jeter? Statistically, he is, and all he’s lacking is that lineup. At least that’s how everyone not a Yankee fan see it.

    Brad November 23, 2006, 12:34 am
  • From Was Watching’s archives:
    http://www.waswatching.com/archives/2006/05/42_big_leaguers.html
    From the horses mouth:
    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/mark_bechtel/05/19/bechtel.scorecard/index.html
    Since you assume that my comment was “stupid, idiotic garbage” and they were my own personal views, the above links are further proof that I didn’t come up with the concept myself.
    Like it or not, it’s the way others feel. Are they all stupid and idiotic, or is it maybe just you blind to the real situation?
    Also, don’t call people stupid. It only reflects poorly on you and your own ability to do a little bit of research on the subject yourself. America isn’t in love with Jeter (or anyone on our teams), and if they were, we’d all know it: One of them would be MVP right now.

    Brad November 23, 2006, 12:52 am
  • Well, I had really hoped to avoid any conversation with Brad because when I posted a lot here last spring, Brad’s unique combination of cockiness and arrogance, mixed in with a huge dose of ignorance and lack of perception and common sense was one of the things I most disliked about this site. Trying to explain something to Brad, to enlighten him on a subject, or to possibly get him to maybe see your point of view was absolutely futile, no matter how strong your case. All those times he rambled on about Wang and how he was lousy, would never be any good, couldn’t compare to Wakefield is just one of the things I remember Brad harping about. I really felt Brad gave Sox fans a bad image here, with his juvenile ramblings.
    But anyway, I’ve stopped in a few times here lately, and lo and behold, Brad is alive and well, and WORSE than ever, if that’s possible. He actually reminds me of George W. Bush, with that know it all attitude when he don’t know shit.
    I can’t agree with his statement that everybody outside of NY thinks Jeter is overrated and EGOTISTICAL?!!! For every article that Brad can come up with that bashes Jeter, you can come up with 10 that praise his talents, and EGOTISTICAL?!!! JETER?!! That is so completely opposite the truth that words can’t describe how ludicrous that is.
    Overrated? How? He’s got more hits the last decade than anyone, last time I checked.
    Let’s look at two key stats for MVPs 2006.
    Runners in scoring position.
    Jeter .381/.482/.581
    Morneau .323/.401/.575
    Ortiz .288/.429/.538
    Thomas .298/.400/.547
    Close and late.
    Jeter .325/.434/.434
    Morneau .299/.343/.540
    Ortiz .314/.443/.756
    Thomas .298/.400/.547
    Jeter had 34 steals and won another GG. The rest of these guys stink in the field if they play in the field at all, and they run the bases like a diet Pepsi machine.
    Dayn Perry of Fox Sports (not a Yankee lover) had Jeter pegged as MVP and called Morneau’s selection criminal. Rotoworld called it ridiculous (by the way somebody tell Brad, that’s how you spell ridiculous, not rediculous, the way he’s spelled it twice in about the last week). Ian O’Connor said Jeter was robbed. Dave Neyer of ESPN thought it was a joke. Keith Law of ESPN couldn’t believe it. I could go on here. There’s dozens more that felt Jeter was slighted, but what’s the point? Brad will never get it anyway.
    The bottom line here is Jeter is not overrated. He might not put up the big HR and RBI numbers, but anybody that knows the game and looks at the totality of it knows there’s a lot more to it than that.
    Jeter’s biggest night may have come in the 5 game showdown with Boston in August. In the 2nd game of that day-night doubleheader, with Boston up 10-8 in the 7th, Jeter smacks the bases loaded double off Mike Timlin and the Yanks go on to win. Two nights later, Jeter gets the game-tying hit off Papelbon with two outs in the 9th and the Yanks go on to win. That was the series that won the AL East for NY, and Derek was huge. Do you suppose Brad recalls any of this?
    Finally, somebody tell Brad that his baseball loving family and friends that badmouth the Yanks is a damn small sample size for the way the USA looks at Derek Jeter and the Yankees. There’s more Yankee fans that show up at opposing parks when the Yanks are in town than any other team.
    Well, gotta go. I’ve already spent too much time trying to clear up somebody with a foggy head and diarrhea of the mouth.

    whatever November 23, 2006, 3:51 am
  • are you suggesting that the man is uneducated and incapable of drafting his own coherent and sincere statement
    Hardly, dc, and I don’t want that misunderstood. Though this has been beaten to death, this is about the issue of press releases and their content. I have some experience working with PR firms, and this experience is what leads me to my conclusions. I am not 100% certain that Derek didn’t write the release (I can’t know that, of course), but I know how these things work. It is incredibly naive and idealistic, actually unrealistic, to think that any pro athlete spends time writing such a thing. These types of releases are handled by media professionals who are skilled at writing. They are akin to presidential speechwriters, in many ways. Press releases offered by any player is, in essence, a political ad, and all it is missing is the video of the player saying “I am ________, and I approve this message”. They stand behind them, but they certainly do not craft them. I can’t say any more times how this is not about Jeter, but about how much value one places on press releases like this.
    Time for turkey.

    SF November 23, 2006, 8:19 am
  • WE: Did you really just use a Gold Glove award as evidence for Jeter’s worth? That really devalues the rest of the argument.
    For an interesting look at MVP candidates’ stats, I suggest Joy of Sox:
    http://joyofsox.blogspot.com/2006/11/al-mvp.html
    Although you cite close and late as a reason Jeter deserved the MVP, he actually was 18th in the AL in OPS in such situations (Ortiz was 1st, Morneau 15th, Dye and Hafner didn’t have enough PAs to qualify, but Hafner would have been first and Dye would have been around 10th). Just food for thought in case you haven’t had enough turkey :-P

    Paul SF November 23, 2006, 9:46 am
  • George Bush? Wow. I’ve been called some things by bigger waste’s of life than WE, but holy cow.
    So, because I offer an opinion on a issue that involves NY golden boy, I’m suddenly comparable to the most hated man on the planet? Wow. Way to stay above the line, Whatever.
    But, I can see where you’re coming from with you’re desire to stay away from a conversation with me – especially when you stoop to the level of using Jeter’s GG as evidence of his worth.
    Not once did I say Jeter wasn’t talented or a great player. Not once did I bash the guy, but that wasn’t good enough was it?
    I guess my “ignorance” and “cockiness” trumps my compliments no matter how clear they are.
    Whatever, your comments sink to a level of childish name calling and immature rants. Is that how you show the rest of how “smart” you are? You troll around on here once in a blue moon, then blame me for not offering like opinion? Please, guy. As far as Wang goes, come back to me with a valid argument when he’s done ten years worth of solid pitching and argue how much better than Wakefield the guys is. Is he good? Yep. Did he have a great year? Yep. Did I say so? Yep again.
    It’s thanksgiving, so I’m not going to continue this, but if you insist on dropping in and being an asshole, I’m probably going to call you out on it every single time. Oh, there’s some of my cockiness again, sorry.
    Finally, if my argument isn’t good enough for you, feel free to email me, and we can continue it there. I’m never not open to solving things in a much more immature way. There’s no sense in coloring this site with your immense stupidity and refusal to see the truth in an issue. If that’s not good enough, feel free to crawl under the same rock Lockland is supposed to crawl under and come back in a few months to troll around again.

    Brad November 23, 2006, 11:23 am
  • You know what? I take it back. The more I think about it, the angrier I am at your insane accusations. I post here everyday, and not always in the Sox favor on things. I do nothing but praise when it’s deserved no matter the player.
    If your feelings are hurt over my posts, stay on Bronx Banter and LoHud where you can all agree on everything, and no matter how stupid the comment, you all see things in the same color.
    I just went back and read some of “last springs” comments, and in them you claim that you’re sure RJ has to be the top candidate for Cy because he’s healthy and one year wiser in the AL. How’d that work out?
    That’s the thing, WE, we’re all wrong sometimes, but that’s how it goes.
    The operative word in the title of this blog is “versus”, which means against and not on the same side. Opinions will differ here on every little thing. I won’t see your side no matter how clear it may be, ever. I don’t like your team and views of it, and the same goes for you. We are all on the same boat here, but we still treat each other with respect.
    I’m sorry if I hurt your precious little feeling by posting articles (from the biggest sports magazine in the country, no less) where OTHER PLAYERS thought he was overrated. I’m sorry you got so mad at that, you decided to call me names. I take it all back. Jeter is the best player in the universe, with unmatched intagibles, he’s the only one who tries hard, and awards mean nothing to the man. He’s an earthbound version of Jesus, and I should be stricken from the planet for suggesting otherwise.
    It’s funny, your screenname really fits this situation. Whatever is right. Cry me a river.
    As far as me giving Sox fans a bad name, you’re way off base here. If you knew some of the things I’ve done in my past to their fans or their stadium, I could agree. But, going on nothing more than what I write here, you’re way off base.
    I’m done with you for now. Your arguments are valid, and so are mine. We won’t agree no matter how many names we call each other or facts we post.
    Have a great thankgiving, WE. Be happy, guy: enjoy the day and accept my apology. It’s sincere.

    Brad November 23, 2006, 11:54 am
  • My word, looks like I may have got under Brad’s skin a bit. Good. Apparently, Brad was so fired up he burned off one scathing rebuttal, stomped around the room for 20 minutes fuming the whole time, and then let me have it again. Both barrels. Ho hum.
    Anyway, just a few things before I trot off to the in-laws for what promises to be a coma inducing feast.
    1. Yeah, those George Bush comparisons are kind of low. Heh. But if the shoe fits wear it.
    2. I mentioned Jeter’s gold glove once. It wasn’t like the centerpiece of my argument. He’s actually won 3 in a row. Now, I know how some think Jeter’s a good fielder and makes a lot of nice plays, but that his range is really lacking. Fair enough. But I don’t see any defensive wizards in the other top MVP candidates while some don’t even play the field, while Jeter plays the demanding position of SS. Edge goes to Jeter on defense.
    3. I don’t recall calling Brad any names. Just a few observations on his persona.
    4. I don’t think I want to start exchanging E-mails with Brad for obvious reasons. And I think Brad meant to say, solving things in a MATURE way, not immature. Not to bring up George Bush again, but Brad and George do have like tendencies to butcher the English language.
    5. Brad seems to think his original statement that Jeter is universally thought to be overrated and egotistical other than in NY is the absolute truth. I do try to see both sides of an issue, but not this one. This is garbage coming out of a Sox fan’s mouth.
    6.Brad should know that my feelings are not hurt by anything he’s said. Heh.
    7.I don’t recall saying RJ should be the TOP candidate for Cy, maybe one of them. If I did, I was certainly wrong on that one.
    8.No need for Brad to offer up true confessions on what he did to Fenway and some BoSox fans in the past. I’m sure he had good reasons. Heh.
    9. Well, after a thorough pummeling Brad is done with me for now. Phew. I feel like a guy in prison who gets the crap beat out of him, and is left in a heap, but who can look forward to more poundings in the future. Heh, heh.
    My wife is out in the car honking. Gotta go. Hopefully, Brad won’t knock me around too severely while I’m gone.

    whatever November 23, 2006, 12:58 pm
  • gerb, i meant what i said about your being so level-headed about everything…lost in the shuffle, my vote was for ortiz too [a little detail brad missed, so he’s wrong again], that’s why the anti-jeter pettiness is so lame and tiring…it doesn’t translate to an anti-ortiz bias, so the sf’s need to give it up
    brad, is this the same lockland who called me an “ass” the other night because he didn’t have a proper comeback?…typical of some sf‘s, resorting to name-calling…[at least you recognized his opinions as “biased and unfounded”]…please, do not lecture me about name-calling and degrading remarks, you don’t have a leg to stand on…you can’t cite one example where i’ve done that, and i know you’ve seen [and ignored] plenty of examples where it’s happened to me…i may get rough on you guys, but i don’t name call…
    of course the jeter statement was issued through a 3rd party…that’s not so uncommon…it’s not proof that those aren’t his words, but more importantly his sentiments…isn’t the intent more important than the words?…as a pr guy, sf should understand that
    sf’s blowing smoke up his own butt on this topic, as usual and you know it…his arguments are not valid, as you contend, given their deep rooted bias and pettiness…he’s gone from criticizing the man’s play to criticizing what he says and how he says it…what’s next, making fun of his hair?…your hatred of the guy is almost pathological…you accuse me of twisting things only when you know i got it right…sf’s got no problem with jeter, “but”…see, it’s the “but” i got a problem with…like i tell you guys every time we get into one of these debates, go back and actually read what i wrote with both eyes open…what i said was: “…one thing sf’s are consistent about is that they don’t give any praise to non-sox without deducting a few points, just because…” …so, you’re wrong again…i acknowledged sf’s praise of jeter, but there’s always a caveat, a “but”…and he still hasn’t answered my question, probably because he he knows he’s wrong and doesn’t have a smartass comeback…
    you miss the point about favoring your own players…it’s ok, as long as we‘re not naïve about their abilities and character…and that goes for both of us…at no time did i say sheffield was a solid citizen…if you go back and research, i said the accusations of his cheating were alleged until proven…due process, my friend…i also said i was glad the yanks traded him, since i was beginning to tire of the drama…will you still go after him with such vigor now?
    jeter’s not so different from shilling in that they both are careful about their images and say what they think people want to hear…not sure how you know shilling doesn’t have help with that unless you’re an insider…
    actually i don’t get your point brad…jeter never said the award meant “nothing” to him…in fact, he said he was “flattered and honored“…so, he downplayed his disappointment…so what?…i thought you guys put a premium on non-emotional responses…isn’t that why you clobber me every chance you get?…i’ll ask you again: would you rather he start crying and whining about how unfair the award process was?…you’re pissed off because [once again] he didn’t give you a legitimate chance to criticize him…
    you did admit that you’d love jeter if he was on your team…would you also still believe he’s overrated, or would you defend him against the petty jealousy of the non-sox of the world?…
    and whatever, don’t hold your breath waiting for an sf to admit they may have been wrong or gone overboard about issue…not on this site…

    dc November 23, 2006, 2:39 pm
  • …he never answered my question about who he’d roast [jeter or the pr firm] if the alleged pr firm had “advised” jeter to rant and rave [a la ortiz] about the dopey voters and how much tougher he has it in ny than the other guys
    Is this the question I need to answer? It’s a ridiculous hypothetical situation, dc, so the fact that I didn’t answer it shouldn’t be taken by you as evidence that you “got me”, or something like that. This situation like you describe would simply never happen. Any player who would make a statement like this on the advisement of his PR firm is either the dumbest player on the face of the earth or has hired the worst PR firm on the planet. Try to name me one incident in history that is like what you describe. I bet you can’t. There’s a reason for that. Players who make dopey statements typically do them impromptu to microphones (a la Ortiz, or TO, or Jeff Kent, etc). Players who are smart enough not to make dopey statements to microphones issue press releases written by professionals (a la Jeter).

    SF November 23, 2006, 6:41 pm
  • …you’re right sf, jeter’s hair is pretty goofy looking…

    dc November 23, 2006, 8:04 pm
  • …and he looks like a chicken in the batters box…i suppose, because i’ve never actually seen a chicken up to bat…

    dc November 24, 2006, 8:38 am
  • “your worldview as I characterized it”
    Off topic, but anytime the term “worldview” is used, I can’t help but think: Ignatius J Reilly

    Andrews November 24, 2006, 11:52 am
  • :)

    Andrews November 24, 2006, 11:54 am
  • …sf, since you ignored the essence of the debate all together, i tried a little sarcasm to get your attention and point out the pettiness of this particular knock on jeter…but you didn’t bite, so here’s one more attempt…go back and actually read my 11/23 @ 2:39pm post, most of which was addressed to brad, but you might get something out of it…then just humor me, and consider whether it’s the actual words jeter used or the intent of his message that’s most important…you are probably right that my example of such an extreme public comment would be so ill-advised that it would not be the work of a good pr firm, but you got so hung up on the example that you missed the real point, that you’ll give someone else [i.e. the pr firm] credit for the masterfully worded message, but clobber the messenger [i.e. the player] for one not so well delivered, regardless of the author or intent…since you cherry-pick what you read and respond to, i won’t waste any more time on this topic…

    dc November 27, 2006, 1:42 am

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