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Sox Gamers/Postmortems

Series FAIL

The Red Sox are 2.5 games behind the Yankees in the AL East. There is no indication that number will shrink by the end of the weekend, and quite a few to believe that it will rise. From refusing to intentionally walk Evan Longoria, to the massive numbers of runners left on base, to another subpar start from Brad Penny, to lackluster bullpen performances, the Red Sox may have reached their season's nadir these past two games — if they weren't about to play four straight against the Yankees.

This has 2006 written all over it.

158 replies on “Series FAIL”

You can tell a fan by his reaction: Paul is a Red Sox fan, and a good one, because he is panicking.
I’m a contrarian Red Sox fan, because I think, We need to win 2, and we can win 2. Penny sucks, the bullpen had a struggle or two (um, not that Saito is a vital part of it anymore), and Garza and Price can be really great pitchers? What else is new?
A two-game series isn’t a series, it’s a split-night doubleheader, and I’m not going to draw conclusions from it. I’m just going to be happy that’s two more games with Tampa done because they, not the Yankees, are the scariest team in this division.

must have been looking at the Globe this morning – they said similar things RE: 2006.
I must say, Dirt Dogs is kind of funny today. American runs on V-Tek (in lieu of dunkin donuts).

Why is everything polar? I am no longer the panicky, fatalist Red Sox fan I was in 2003. But I also don’t feel great about this team. Old. 60% of the rotation is pretty horrid. Defense not too hot – an unproven shortstop, a terrible catcher, and a left-fielder who is below average and now hurt. Heart of lineup, Ortiz and Bay, not exactly that fearsome.
I think the Sox will win one game, at least, with Beckett and Lester going. And I think a split is also a reasonable expectation. But the way the Sox are playing right now, I’d say a split would be welcomed, and also a bit of an accomplishment.
This doesn’t mean panic, to think that the Sox might only win one of four, and to fear a sweep. The Sox aren’t playing well, acknowledging this (and that the team is flawed) is not Chicken Little-ism. It’s honest.

I can’t go into this conversation without two considerations; 1. If we were each going into this series 3 days ago (before we each swept/got-swept and after the Yanks lost 3 in a row to Chicago and Boston had an offensive explosion in Baltimore, the dynalics and predictions from fans of each would have been preety much the inverse of what they now are; 2. The last NYY-BOS series also followed a period of strong NYY play and it meant nothing for that series.
Moreover, going into a 4-game set saying you’d be disappointed with fewer than 3 wins (as I and other YFs have said) vs. Being satisfied with one win and thrilled with 2 (which is where I believe many SFs are) sets one fanbase up for relatively easy disappointment and the other for satisfaction.
I do believe the Yankees are a better team right now. As long as Joba is in the rotation (only another 2-3 weeks by most accounts), I think their rotation is better and I don’t dread the bottom third of the Yanks order the way I think many SFs do. To my surprise this year, the Yanks defense is also pretty good on the whole.
But with two west coast swings still to come and Joba’s inevitable departure, I am not feeling confident about maintaining the division lead and so feel they must build it for as long as he is around. They really need to win at least 3 this weekend.

Does Joba really go poof after 160 innings? I’m not being provocative, I just haven’t followed this. Are they stretching Hughes out to take over?

must have been looking at the Globe this morning
I tend not to read the Globe on days after Red Sox losses. And I never read Shaughnessy or Massarotti. But, like it or not, this does feel like 2006. As Krueg and IH noted, the Sox had let the division lead slip away going into the last series against NY, and I didn’t feel good about that one either, but the Sox swept and got hot, while the Yanks plummeted.
I agree the Sox could split or even win this series. It just doesn’t seem likely given their overall level of play against any team outside of Baltimore since July 1.

I just have to say…I’m listening to Francona talk to Francesa on the WFAN and he is one classy guy and an even better manager. I have nothing but respect for him and what he has done in Boston.
You SF’s are fortunate to have such a quality guy running the show…guess it explains all the success!

IH, do you really think they are going to pull Joba from the rotation? I cannot see how they possibly can. Innings limit be damned, if we’re in the running for the division, which we obviously are, there is no way they can take him out and insert who exactly?
They have to leave Joba in the rotation until the playoffs. I’ve always been a “Joba in the rotation guy” since he obviously belongs there… ;)

I think with Wang officially on the shelf for the season the Joba rules are probably scrapped barring a complete Sox collapse.
On topic, somewhere Bill Simmons is nodding in approval of Paul’s reverse jinx.

Being satisfied with one win
I personally will not be satisfied with one win. I will be satisfied with a split. One win is terrible, and puts the Sox 4.5 back. It will be a failure.

Joba has about 8 more starts before he hits that 160 mark. Just in time for September, when he can easily be skipped in favor of 40-man guys like Nova and de la Rosa.
And I expect even Cano to successfully steal a bag this series. Stealing from a comment on RAB’s blog, 6 of Varitek’s 14 CS this season were actually pick-offs by the pitcher. So he’s even worse than 14%. Last night’s CS of Pena broke a streak of 27 successful attempts on Varitek. Historically bad.

On behalf of SF’s everywhere, I would love to see Wang come back – pretty please?

The Yanks are loathe to add more than 40 innings to any key pitcher’s load over the previous year, especially a future-of-the-franchise arm-injury-history guy like Joba. I don’t know how close Joba is to his 2008+40 innings limit but is it really 8-9 starts-worth? I’m not saying it isn’t, but I am not in a place to verify the numbers and it would surprise me if it’s that many. Regardless, I believe the Yankees will (and should) stay close to if not right at that limit. It is not a Joba-rule but a rather basic one for transitioning young relievers to starter-roles.

When it comes to rules, the Jordan rules sure were cooler and more winning-conducive than the Joba rules.
If the Yankees really wanted to go forward with the starter-to-reliever plan over the course of a season, which could actually work out brilliantly for Joba (who will be a full-time reliever by age 32 anyway, and if he is lucky, will have a Eck-ish career), they’d have a real replacement at the ready; since Sergio Mitre is already in the rotation, we can safely say they don’t. Losing Hughes from the bullpen is just attrition. Whether he has a lame plan or no plan here, Cashman is full of shit.

Of course, if you look at Joba’s pitch count this season rather than his innings, the time bomb might seem to tick a little louder: the efficiency factor hasn’t exactly increased, has it?
But here’s the thing: who gets Joba’s (likely) playoff starts when he’s already been geared down to relief duties? Unless Cashman’s just going to have some starts skipped, this sounds like mothering rather than nuturing a young pitcher. Unlike in AA, major league pitchers aren’t shut down early for innings reasons. Joba, to my disdain, could have a bright future ahead of him.
He’ll get to that future much more slowly with the training wheels bolted to his bike.

This is it! What’s it called? tipping point, point of no return? headed to doom? falling to third? it’s something like that.
Anyway Reddick back on his way to the big club…. wonder who’s going on the DL.

Sitting in England watching replays of the last two games–it’s amazing how a 2-game series can change perspective, isn’t it?
By the way, Sox just signed Paul Byrd to a minor-league deal.

This has 2006 written all over it.
Slow down. This could get ugly, but as many suggested, there are a lot of games to go, and the Red Sox are going to get healthy again.

K, I fully expect Smoltz to get lit up, but I still think the Red Sox are in every one of these games. Joba has pitched better, but they’ve gotten to him before, and the same goes with every pitcher on both sides this weekend.
Nothing is settled yet.
But, as far as the gamer goes, I never post in games anymore.

I wasn’t taunting B, I just know how much you love my posts so seeing that we are playing each other and all, was looking forward to tonight! Come on man, these games are HUGE!!! You have to be there…

HD, Joba’s efficiency may not have improved much between ’08 and ’09 but it has improved dramatically pre- and post-ASB this year and hopefully there is something lasting in that improvement. He is working fast and aggressively, converting 2 strike-counts to outs at a very high rate and getting through innings faster (and therefore going much deeper into games) than he ever has before as a starter. We’ll see if he can continue this vs. Boston tonight.

Na, I realize that. I’m on a bad string of losses when I poke my head into the gamers, so I stay away during these runs.
EEI is reporting that Ortiz is scheduled to talk to the press about his test today at 3:00 – has anyone heard it or where the hell I can find it.
If so, he’s either on the supplement list of shit one can get at GNC, or he is the stupidest man on planet earth.

NESN had the report on Ortiz as well, since removed. No one is sure if he’s speaking or not via the globe blog.
Bay is on DL? didn’t hear that one (although Reddick is up). the line-up will get very left handed if that’s the case.

EEI is saying that he’s not going to hold a press conference, but is going to make a statement at his locker when they open the clubhouse at 3:45

Ortiz has said that he was not going to speak today, per Bradford.
Strange. WTF is going one. He’s in the lineup.
Youk is in LF, Tek out while Martinez catching, Ortiz DH and Lowell at third.

He keeps delaying his “press conference”, which makes me think he’s waiting to hear back from the union/PA about something. I don’t like all this waiting around. Give us what we want, Papi.

Bradford suggested/opinion(ed) that the Red Sox are the holdup, as they’re looking into the legal action to obtain the test results themselves, as Ortiz has suggested that he has no idea what it is.
This makes me believe he failed for something other than what everyone thinks/hopes – why would anyone go that far knowing what the answer will be, and how much worse it would be at that point.
Am I wrong to think that?

Youk in LF, Ortiz at DH, Kotchman at 1B, and Lowell at third.
It’s a smart move, but I worry about Youk tracking balls down there.

Really? There are otherwise sane human beings who think there’s a “supplement list”?
Seriously, you’re ready to believe whatever comes out of his mouth?

Youk has always been listed as a backup outfielder, but I don’t think he’s played it since 2004/2005. It’ll have to do for now.
Rob, there’s still maybe a 1% chance that all of this is some crazy misunderstanding. Let us hold onto this bit of hope just a little longer!

Rob, I believe that if a person has taken the time out of their lives to inject someting into their ass (Clemens), and continue to lie about it once the evidence is in front of them, then they deserve to get whatever happens, but I also believe that if a person knows that they didn’t do such a thing, and thinks that they didn’t do anything wrong, they have the right to take their time and get all the facts.
I also believe that it’s borderline insane this concrete proof that you seem to have that David did the worst thing possible – what makes you the authority on what is going on behind the scenes.
What if David has proof, or gets his hands on the issues that caused the failed test, and eveyone is completely wrong. Are you going to come out and eat that crow?

I also believe that there is a difference between failing a test in 2003, when there were no outlawed substances in baseball to failing one in 2009 (Manny), when every player has a list of what they can and can’t do.
Especially is said person has passed the amount of drug tests I’m sure Ortiz has been administered in the last 5 years.

Rob –
Yeah, I have to ask. You seem particularly hard on Ortiz – I don’t remember what your take on Clemens or Pettite was. Surely you at least cheer for Andy every five days, is he not exactly the lying sack of shit you are accusing Ortiz of being?

Rob, are you reading something from that article that I’m missing? All Henry says is that he’s waiting for Ortiz to speak before the Red Sox make a comment.

Rob is mad because ARod got bad treatment by the media, and he doesn’t think Ortiz will, even though he’s been portrayed horribly by the Boston media.

It’s a fan’s right to root for whomever they deem worthy. I don’t laud anyone for still holding some semblance of fandom for Pettitte or ARod, as I’m sure I’ll still hold my memories of what Ortiz has done to close to the vest – no matter what the immature, sour fans of other teams wishes to say or taunt.
I do not believe Ortiz was taking steroids or anything else during his great run the past few years, because if there was ever a person who was going ot be tested, it’s he and A-Rod. I don’t hold either of them to a flame because of something that happened in 2003, when the rules were not what they are now.
If it comes out that Ortiz was injecting testosterone into his ass in 2003, I’ll be upset, but I don’t dare say that I’ll be surprised. My “surprise” days are well behind me at this point.
I believe Ortiz has every right, to take every day, get every fact, and make sure he has all the facts before he appeases the likes of Rob.

Ortiz now speaking tomorrow. Youk in left – baldelli to DL (why?) Reddick on bench. Youk played left field last in 2006 (in fact, I think he did in Seattle and I was there).

But I also firmly believe that Ortiz could come out with a copy of the test, signatures of the doctors, and hand them out to the media, but guys like Rob will still cry foul.
Baldelli placed on DL just now.
Dropping like flies lately. It would be nice for some of those Drew moments tonight.

Ortiz and Michael Weiner (sp) (from the players association) will address the media tomorrow before the game.
National game on Fox, and holding it with the higher ranking personell from the players association?

No, rootbeer, I don’t believe anyone in or associated with MLB on this issue. It’s one clear instance where we need the regulatory powers of government.
Every single person on that list knows right now that they were on it. The Union was obligated to tell them once they had to hand over the list to the government. It would have been criminal malpractice if they didn’t.
As for the substance, I really can’t believe anyone, at this point, would give MLB players any benefit of the doubt. Worse still, Manny has now been caught in 2003 and 2009. Are we ever going to find out if he ever stopped? Not even the commissioner (shocking!) wants to find out the answer to that simple question? Who else has been caught twice?

Baldelli I could care less about. I hate that Bay is on it, but I think Youk will be fine in LF – They have to have his bat in the lineup.

There is a good chance that Reddick will replace Youk late in games, Youk will go to third, which is the better defensive lineup late in games. It makes it so Terry can just move guys around instead of taking them out.

maybe Smoltz can play the outfield and Youk can pitch? I’d have a higher confidence in that field…

Wow, there goes a big part of our outfield. And with Drew somewhat injured too. We really are dropping like flies.
It will be pretty pathetic if the Yanks don’t sweep us, as far as I’m concerned.

“Who else has been caught twice”
I would imagine that most of the guys who have been suspended are the ones getting caught twice.
Everyone is being tested now, so if they’re doing it now and not caring, they were probably doing it then too.
The problem with your argument is that Ortiz has not been suspended, or ever even mentioned in the discussion (sans by Yankee fans). I don’t think anyone is giving anyone the benefit of the doubt, but I’d rather just hold my tongue and not look like an idiot if it turns out that he failed the test because of a chemical found in a drink he could have gotten at GNC, or a vitamin pill or something else that has nothing at all to do with baseball.
In college, I was given a preliminary warning by the NCAA for failing a test because of an ingredient found in “Ripped Fuel”, which myself and my rooommates bought at Vitamin World. My entire team was tested at the BE Regionals, and 12 of us failed.
Was it fair? Yep, we should have done the work to ensure we weren’t doing anyting illegal. Was it stupid – absolutely.

Baldelli has a bruised foot from a ball he fouled off it in batting practice last night.
Pedro had 11k last night. Could be a smart move on Philly’s part. Haap has been said to staying in the rotation, and they may DFA Moyer to make room for Pedro.

Woooo! The Player’s Association! They’re credible.
Brad – were you getting paid $1.25 Million for what you could do with your body? And working out with guys getting paid tens of millions?

I think Brad’s point is that there’s a difference between injecting yourself with needles and taking a GNC suppliment. Certainly there are degrees of cheating, right?

No, Rob. I wasn’t. I was taking a supplement unknowingly containg a substance that was illegal to use in the NCAA competition.
The same could be said for any player, on any level – especially when there is no list of illegal substances.
Maybe I’m just not as quick to jump to conclusions as you are, and that’s your right, as brash and yankee blindered as I think it is.

And you’re being willfully ignorant if you think only Yankee fans had suspicions of Ortiz. No matter the ingredient these guys knew they were being tested and they’ve known for years they were on the 2003 list.
Okay, guys, you’ll believe whatever he says, I guess. He does have a nice smile. And he doesn’t cheat on his wife. I’m sure you’ve reserved judgment for every one of the players previously named.
Enjoy the game.

So, what you’re saying is that no matter if Ortiz comes out with the exact substance he failed for, and the PA and baseball confirm this, you’re still going to believe he’s lying. In the face of certain public abomination?
I think that speaks more to you than it does him.
There is a reason the credo says “innocent until proven guilty” and not the other way around – the man deserves to have the time to do whatever it is he needs to. It’s his career, his legacy, and his reputation on the line here.

Well, the opposite of that statement Brad is that you are a naive homer to think that after all this, Ortiz did nothing…
Come on bro. He was on the list and he knew it. This whole waiting period is just understandable posturing by Team Ortiz.

His reputation is done Brad…he was on the list. Period.
(for the record, I don’t care about PED’s. They all did them probably…expept Jeter and Mo!!!)

Come on bro. He was on the list and he knew it..
I never denied this in any way shape or form. I just happen to think that the possibility does exist that he failed for some reason other than the worst case scenario. I think the possibility does in fact exist that he knows he didn’t ever inject anything, and he wants to know what it was that caused the failure.
We will know more soon enough, but I do believe he has the right to talk when he has all the facts.
I think that if Ortiz knew what it was, and it was illegal, he would have said so by now.
I know Yankee fans would just love to jump the boat, but I’ll wait for the facts to come out.
Color me reasonable, not a homer.

I get what you are saying but if he was already told he was on the list, and didn’t knowingly take anything, wouldn’t he have already figured all this out? Years ago?
Again, come on bro…

And another thing –
Why do I have to be a homer to believe that there could be a reasonable explanation to it? I thought the same thing for A-Rod, who anyone who’s been on this sight for as long as I have, can tell you that I hoped the same thing for him.
Yeah, he’s a Yankee and yeah, it was funny to me, but I always hoped it was wrong. The difference is that Selena Roberts came right out and said it was “steroids”, which is completely different than this situation where “steroids” were never ever mentioned. It’s a failed test for sure, but I’ll wait for the chemical before I put him on the woodpile with the rest of the witches.

Yet again Rob is changing the goalposts and creating his own debate here.
Most Sox fans had “suspicions” that Ortiz was juicing. I always held out hope that he was clean, but come on, no homerun hitter from this era is free of suspicion by any group of fans.
Rob, we get it. You hate the fact that the New York media gives ARod a hard time, and are using this Ortiz thing to pick a bone with them. Most of us agree that ARod is unfairly scrutinized by the media, even if much of his suffering was brought on by his own actions.
But seriously dude, give it a rest. You do this with every damn stand you take, rehashing it out over and over in every thread you get a chance in.

oh, some of the vitamin water flavors would result in a positive test! It’s true, I read it on the internet!

I have to agree with Brad here. I hated Selena Roberts, and was skeptical of the ARod report initially because of that (a friend of mine was on the Duke lax team). I absolutely cannot stand ARod, but he was the one who would bring the HR record to a clean user again, so I held out hope that he was innocent.
Then he came out and admitted it was steroids, and all of that ended.
Again, surely there’s a difference between needles/steroids, and some legal over-the-counter suppliment. Right?
Ortiz has given Sox fans a lot over the past 6 years. The least we could give him is a few days to collect information and present that information to the public before we hold final judgement. It may not make a difference in the end, but I want to hear what he has to say.

Ath, Brad:
re: Rob: It’s called rationalizing and/or tortured logic. It doesn’t deserve a response. It’s his m.o. Always has been. He’s clouded by his hatred of everything Red Sox.

By the way Rob, during the ARod debacle you were very pleased with the fact that ARod came out to the public and gave everyone information on what had happened. But when Ortiz takes some time to do the same thing (with a member of the PA to confirm the information) you say that it makes no difference? Sounds like you’re being equally homerish as you accuse Brad of being, at the very least.

oh, some of the vitamin water flavors would result in a positive test! It’s true, I read it on the internet!
you laugh at this, but take a look at the “NCAA Banned Substance” list. Then google some of the items on said list. You’d be surprised at some of the things you can fail for, and how about 80% of them are readily available at your local mall.

Now I’m the devil?
It was Brad who said only YFs had suspicions (4:25 PM).
So Manny there’s no question. But somehow you’re trying to preserve the memory of only a pure “Papi”? Good luck with that.
I’m gone. You can’t say I’m rehashing anything if I’m not here. But you can go ahead and rehash how tainted vitamins aren’t PEDs.

The reasonable explanation is that he did it. Period.
You are giving him the benefit of the doubt but I would argue that there is no doubt:
MLBPA 2003: “oh hey Papi, by the way, you tested positive for PED’s in our testing
Papi: “I never took anything but screw it, no one will ever see this so who cares…”
Not realistic. If he never did anything, but was told he tested positive 6 years ago, you would think he would have done everything in his power to dispute the test at the time, including finding out what exactly he tested positive for. Did he just forget?

So Manny there’s no question. But somehow you’re trying to preserve the memory of only a pure “Papi”? Good luck with that.
Lol, never change Rob. Never change.

In fact, if an athlete were to consume 2 Large black coffee from Dunkin Dounuts, wait three hours, and take the NCAA drug test, they’d fail.
Fair? Maybe, it’s a caffine is a drug, but stupid and not respective of the term “failed drug test” – absolutely.
Give the guy time to tell his story.

Pretty sure vitamin water didn’t exist in 2003? Right?
You guys are really reaching. I’m not trying to rub anything into anyones face, I don’t care about PED, but come on boys…
What’s more likely, he was doing what many others were doing? Or this one time, some hairbrained excuse like Bonds used is actually the truth…

Brad – wasn’t laughing, well, trying to lighten the mood again. I actually saw where the NCAA put out a warning – that’s where I read it. Ironic Ortiz was/is spokesman

Krueg, while we’re on that subject, is there any evidence that all 104 players were notified back in 2003? ARod said he was warned personally by someone, but has there been a specific report stating that all 104 members were notified?
I ask because I’ve been out of the country and out of the loop for a little while.

K, I don’t disagree, but why stir the bucket of shit if you don’t have to?
If he knows he didn’t take anabolic steroids, and he knows he failed for something else, why would he be doing this right now?
If he knows that all this work is going to lead to something he already knows, wouldn’t he just come out and say it ala Giambi? I say no. I say that he knows he didn’t do anything, and wants the exact thing he failed for, so he can adequately defend himself against the smear campaign everyone is trying to lump him into.

Yeaeh, I’ve heard about how insane the NCAA/olpymic tests are. There was a story of a snowboarder who was DQ’d from some competition for having too much caffeine in his system after drinking Bawls.

K it existed (Vitamin Water)…
“Glacéau,a privately owned subsidiary of Coca-Cola Company added Vitaminwater to its line in 1998 and 2000, respectively, the company expanded to nationwide distribution in the early 2000s”

…was Brad who said only YFs had suspicions (4:25 PM)
I’m sorry, while this is true, I meant to say accusations, not suspicions.
I have never once heard a Sox fan, or for that matter, anyone other than a Yankee fan actually accuse him of steriods before this, so yes, you guys are alone in that matter.
I think everyone actually suspects everyone, and hopes they’re wrong, which is exactly the case here.

Personally, I care about what Ortiz says because I think there’s a significant difference between steroids/needles than some of the illegal suppliments on the market. It may not make him any less of a cheater, but I will certainly think less of him for using needles.

Voicing an opinion that is the opposite of yours and obviously the more-likely explanation is “stirring the bucket of shit”??? I thought we were having a little debate here?
You still haven’t answered my point of why he didn’t do anything about this years ago when he was informed he was on the list…

Krueg, I understand the old “if it walks like a duck and looks lilke a duck” rationale, but we should at least wait until Ortiz tells a lie before we call him a liar. He hasn’t said a word yet.
…
In other news, Red Sox now saying that Bay is likely to miss the entire NYY series. When is the Patriots’ opener?

Exactly, Atheose.
There is a HUGE difference between shooting yourself in the ass or accidentally ingesting a chemical found in Dexatrim, which is a weight supplement pill used by housewives all over the country, and highly illegal in both NCAA and MLB (not to mention every other orgaized sport implementing a drug test).

The parsing here is comical. I understand the problem – it’s called cognitive dissonance – but I thought you guys had come around to the obvious.
I have to say that Schilling’s parsing shows he has what it takes to run for office. There’s a guy who had no trouble judging…until the rot infected things he accomplished. Now it’s “Run, Forest, run!”

Alright…vitamin water was around then. That’s probably what happened then! ;)
No problem Ath, but to your point about needles or pills…people can take steroids in pill form too. Not sure how the drugs are administered really matters?

You still haven’t answered my point of why he didn’t do anything about this years ago when he was informed he was on the list…
You’re misunderstanding, bud. What I’m saying is why would any of them, probably under advisment, stir the shit bucket about failing when they didn’t have to? Ortiz can’t be singled out on this issue when there are 103 other guys who didn’t come out and say they failed.
Your opinion is as valid as mine on this issue, since the fact remains that neither of us know what the test says. The difference is that I’m going to wait and see, and you’re going to hurry to conclusion, which is fine.

I’m not calling him a liar per se IBM, I just think that Team Ortiz is posturing, as they should…Team ARod did the same thing leading up to his press conference.

Brad and Atheose –
What makes you think you’re going to get the truth tomorrow? Why would you ever think that? And when he’s already been caught in a lie?
Brad –
Talk to Athoese cause he says he had suspicions above. More problematic – the guy’s entire career: Pre-2003, 2003 – 2007, and post-2007.

Krueg, it could be likely that he found out that he tested positive and knew it was for a suppliment or something like that, and rather than throwing his name into the media (this was when Bonds was becoming a huge deal) he just wanted it to go away. I think that’s highly plausible.
Having said that, I’m 95-99% convinced that Ortiz knowingly did something illegal. But I’m hoping the information he reveals will shed light on it that makes it far less severe than we would think.

Ortiz can’t be singled out on this issue when there are 103 other guys who didn’t come out and say they failed.
I’ve been consistent in saying the whole list should be released and it should have been two years ago.
I’m not calling him a liar per se IBM, I just think that Team Ortiz is posturing, as they should…Team ARod did the same thing leading up to his press conference.
Yup.

Hey look, Rob is back.
Rob, nobody is saying that we think we’ll get the truth tomorrow. But he’ll have a member of the PA with him to confirm what he says, and I want to hear what he says.
Also Rob, most Sox fans had “suspicions”. But that’s far different than an accusation.

FACT: MLB tested players for dozens of substances in 2003.
FACT: Ortiz failed a test in 2003.
Other than that, I don’t think we know too many other relevant FACTS in this case at this time. (Certainly feel free to point them out to me.)
Until we get those FACTS, everything else is pure conjecture and speculation.

OH…yeah, got our wires crossed Brad.
I don’t mean that everyone told should have come out and admitted it, I’m talking about the fact that he was told that he failed years ago. Even in the face of this fact, he said he didn’t know what was going on, what he took, that he was on the list, etc. On those points, he is lying obviously. I don’t blame him for that as I’ve said before…
So, in the face of these false accusations in 2004, why would he have not looked into it then? Wouldn’t you? If you were innocent? You certainly would want to know what you supposedly failed the test for, no? That’s what I’m saying, not come out publicly at the time, but I would certainly be active behind the scenes trying to get to the bottom of said failed test…
I sincerely doubt he failed the test because of dexatrim.

What makes you think you’re going to get the truth tomorrow?
What makes you think you’re not? Because he’s a Red Sox player? Is he incapable of telling the truth? I think if he wanted to lie about it, he would have already done so.

“I’m not calling him a liar per se IBM,”
I know you’re not, krueg, and I agree that he’s posturing at this point. I purposefully used the word “liar” to make a more salient point, which is that we’ll have plenty of chances to castigate him once we have more information.

Talk to Athoese cause he says he had suspicions above…
We all had suspicions of everyone, Rob. I’m just saying nobody had him linked anywhere or accused him of anything other than Yankee fans.

“Krueg, it could be likely that he found out that he tested positive and knew it was for a suppliment or something like that, and rather than throwing his name into the media (this was when Bonds was becoming a huge deal) he just wanted it to go away. I think that’s highly plausible.”
Yeah, that is definitely plausible.
“FACT: MLB tested players for dozens of substances in 2003.
FACT: Ortiz failed a test in 2003.
Other than that, I don’t think we know too many other relevant FACTS in this case at this time. (Certainly feel free to point them out to me.)
Until we get those FACTS, everything else is pure conjecture and speculation”
You forgot a biggie:
FACT: 2004 all the players on said list were informed they had failed drug tests

What makes you think you’re not?
When have you ever thought any player in these situations told the truth? Name one.
I think if he wanted to lie about it, he would have already done so.
You don’t think he already has? Really? Really!?
And if you’re parsing “suspicion” from “accusation” I don’t know what to say. This isn’t a court of law or a philosophy class.

I just really want this all to go away IBM. If anything, all this does is level the playing field for the dummies in our respective fanbases. We all know the Sox fans that were holier-than-thou about PED’s which leads to the huge backlash now with the Papi stuff…it’s all stupid. Many did it, except Jeter and Mo, and we’ll never really know the extent…

Brad/IBM/Atheose: “We want to hear what Ortiz has to say because we want more information. He will have a member of the PA with him to confirm the information, and hopefully some actual reports to show.”
Rob: “Holy crap you guys are idiots to want to hear what Ortiz says! I’m really annoyed that everyone hates ARod and it gives me a big frowny face :-(”

By the way, as far as I’ve seen Ortiz has never said that he’s innocent. He’s only said that he will shed light on the entire thing by giving us all full disclosure and all the information available. He very well might be admitting his guilt tomorrow, and providing the evidence for it.
And Rob, you applauded ARod for coming public and giving people information. But when Ortiz does it you call us all idiots for wanting to hear what he says. So, uhh, yeah.

The problem for me krueg is I was cheated out of multiple seasons. I have memories that now mean close to nothing because I can’t resolve them. SFs waiting 86 years for this lump (and his dread locked buddy) to bring a title only then to deal with this? It’s disgusting every which way.
This whole thing is sickening. But I want every last detail and I want the government to burn the scumbags (i.e., Selig and Fehr) in charge of this fraud. And that’s exactly what it is. As a baseball fan, I was defrauded.

And if Mo And Jeter are ever caught I’ll be ever more disgusted. It will mean I was defrauded even longer than I thought.

This whole thing is sickening. But I want every last detail..
Exactly. So do we. If Ortiz shows up tomorrow with a member of the PA and documents showing what he tested positive for, then he will have given us more details and information than any accused player to date.
So yeah, we want to hear what he has to say.

Atheose –
Talk about moving the goalposts. Earlier in the thread you guys were writing his excuse note. Now you just want to hear him be heard? Ummm, oh-kay. Sure, fine, let’s hear it.
As for A-Rod, he admitted to injecting steroids in his ass and within three days. If Ortiz does the same, after a week and half, I’ll “applaud” (your word, not mine).
Problem is, there will still be many unanswered questions about Manny.

Cognitive dissonance == believing the player and their association are credible on PEDs when they have never been.

Read what I wrote Rob. I never made excuses for him, aside from saying that it could have been a suppliment instead of a steroid. Yeah, I want to make that distinction. And again, like I said earlier, I’m 95-99% convinced that he knew he was doing something illegal when he did it.

I totally understand how you feel Rob…I’m just not that much of a purist to care about PED’s. Especially since we will never know the true extent of it’s usage.
Sufficies to say, no one is clean, except Jeter and MO, and no team is clean.

Yeah, I want to make that distinction.
There’s your problem right there, especially when you think he knew it was illegal. Here’s the explanation.

Cognitive dissonance == believing the player and their association are credible on PEDs when they have never been.
Ortiz has yet to say anything substantial. I’ll hear what he has to say before I call him a liar, thank you very much. You’re calling him a liar before he says anything at all, which is just silly.
And again, you were pleased as pie when ARod came public, praising him for his courage to do so. But when Ortiz gathers evidence (and that’s what he’s supposedly bringing tomorrow: hard evidence) you call us idiots for wanting to at the very least hear him out.

Be honest SF’s…you guys are just hoping he was clean. REALLY REALLY hoping. That’s all this is. It’s not some altruistic search for the truth or anything, it’s one of your favorite, best and most important players being sullied and you guys want to believe it isn’t true. I get it. But be realistic, take off the Sox-blinders (as someone else referenced earlier) and be honest with yourselves. He did it or he was on vitamin water or dexatrim…

“As for A-Rod, he admitted to injecting steroids in his ass and within three days. If Ortiz does the same, after a week and half, I’ll “applaud” (your word, not mine).”
Not exactly, Rob. He confirmed what Selena Roberts reported, which was the he had tested positive for steroids.
The difference between the initial Ortiz report and the initial ARod report is that Roberts reported that he tested positive for steroids; and the times reported that Ortiz tested positive for a banned substance, which could be a host of things INCLUDING steroids (and supplements).
I don’t think that’s parsing words. none of us are saying IT’S DEFINETELY NOT STEROIDS. We’re saying IT COULD BE STEROIDS OR IT COULD BE SUPPLEMENTS.

Rob, your not reading what I’m writing. I, personally, want a distinction because if Ortiz took steroids/needles then I, as a fan, will think far less of him. Like I’ve said, he’s guilty of cheating either way, but there’s certainly a degree of it here.
Supposedly ARod gave opposing players pitch signals so they could beef their batting averages. That’s cheating (a conspiracy, even!), but it’s not nearly as bad as sticking a needle in your ass. If I found out that Ortiz pooped for an illegal suppliment, instead of a needle steroid, then it will make it much easier for me to root for a fan.
So yeah, it gets old when you spam the Cognitive Dissonance link over and over dude.

krueg –
We only have one clear test that is likely as accurate as we’ll ever get. But that list only names 10% of the players. Canseco says differently. But then he stands to gain by saying it was the vast majority. It’s hard to believe that all these users suddenly stopped and intelligently.
If I’m the commissioner of baseball and I see a list with big stars on it, how do I not do something immediately? How has that question not been asked of the car salesman? Then he sits back in 2004 – 2007, before Congressional pressure, and does nothing?

Wait, there’s a degree of cheating for individual players but not for specific teams?
He confirmed what Selena Roberts reported
No he didn’t. He came right out and said what he used, how he used it, and why.
Again, let’s see Ortiz say the same. Instead, you guys are busy writing his excuse note.
And, Rob, the Manny stuff is a separate discussion.
Really? Then let’s have it. When will he answer questions? Cause there are more questions for him than there are for Ortiz.

Krueg, absolutely. I’m hoping that he’s clean. But I also know that he probably isn’t–I’ve said that I’m 95-99% convinced that he knowingly took something illegal.
But we still want to hear what he has to say, because he said that he will come forward with a ton of information. If he has hard evidence and reports from the Players Association then we should absolutely listen to what he has to say, because it might shed light on the situation.
But if he doesn’t have anything like that, then most of us will dismiss what he has to say.
I just don’t understand why Rob is so adamant that we’re not allowed to want to hope against reason that Ortiz isn’t as guilty as everyone thinks he is.

“Be honest SF’s…you guys are just hoping he was clean. REALLY REALLY hoping.”
Of course, you’re correct, krueg. None of us are denying that. At least I’m not denying that. But let’s be clear, We’re not saying, “THERE’S NO WAY HE TOOK STEROIDS, UNCLE BOBBY. THERE’S JUST NO WAY! SAY IT ISN’T SO.” What we ARE saying is, “Let’s wait until we have more facts.”
But, yeah, you bet your ass we’re hoping.

Ortiz has yet to say anything substantial.
Really? What about his press conference this Spring?

Really? What about his press conference this Spring?
Lol, Rob being Rob. Never change.
Most of us Sox fans are being honest with the fact that he’s most likely guilty, but that he still deserves the chance to explain himself. For some reason you’re on a crusade to keep us from hoping for the best.
European bedtime. Enjoy running in circles Rob.

How could you ever conclude he’s clean based on what he says? You been there for how many years now believing everything he said?
Now that there’s clear evidence to the contrary, how is there room for “hope”, most especially with his statistics?
Abandon hope all ye who enter here.

Most of us Sox fans are being honest with the fact that he’s most likely guilty, but that he still deserves the chance to explain himself.
Trying to resolve cognitive dissonance?
Priceless.

Personally I have a feeling Ortiz wants the test to see for which, of more than one substance, he tested positive.

Gamer up top. Another circular, disingenuously baited Ortiz deathspiral is not acceptable, so those who desire such an outcome should consider themselves forewarned.

“Be honest SF’s…you guys are just hoping he was clean. REALLY REALLY hoping.”
Of course, you’re correct, krueg. None of us are denying that. At least I’m not denying that. But let’s be clear, We’re not saying, “THERE’S NO WAY HE TOOK STEROIDS, UNCLE BOBBY. THERE’S JUST NO WAY! SAY IT ISN’T SO.” What we ARE saying is, “Let’s wait until we have more facts.”
But, yeah, you bet your ass we’re hoping.
What facts though? That he was on vitamin water and dexitrim? That it was a false positive? That it was somehow less of an offense because it was a pill instead of an injection, whatever he took? I guess this is a circular debate. You guys aren’t denying he took something, it is what he took that will determine how upset you guys are…
No reason to beat a dead horse. He’ll eventually talk and we’ll see what he says.
ON TO THE GAMER!!!

I wonder why there was so much disdain for McGwire if simple supplements like andro are – apparenmtly – so much cleaner than using a needle.
It’s of course fine to await Ortiz’s explanation – it’s kind of hard to justify making up one’s mind before that frankly. But two things seem strange, the first of which I’d hope his explanation would address and the second of which I’d ask Atheose, Brad, and other SFs to address (if you are willing to indulge me on it): 1. His expression of surprise at learning about the positive test (unless what we’ve read about all 104 being previously informed is just wrong); 2. Any effort to prepare possible leniency for him that was simply never afforded to McGwire simply because you are an SF and not a Cards fan.

That’s what I’ve been saying IH…this “looking into it” and total confusion at the information is what’s puzzling. He knew this in 2004. That is why I’m chalking up this supposed fact-checking mission as a stall to get the PR together…

just a question…..
since PED testing took effect, how many rings have the yankees won? i’m now suspicious of 27 rings.

@IH
1. Not sure what the hell the “surprise” was, other than a PR person’s recommended wording. Or, he was surprised that more names on the list came out, which seems rather silly considering that names have been leaked.
2. Who are these SFs of whom you speak? McGwire and Ortiz (and Bonds and Sheffield and Giambi and yada yada yada) are the same. What “leniency”? I don’t quite get this blanket accusation, unless I am reading your question wrong, like we have double standard specific to SFs.

Uh, obviously no one’s reading the thread this far down, but I just caught up on it and the answer to the question of how Ortiz could be surprised about the report of the positive test isn’t that complicated if you actually read the whole Globe article that krueg posted.
The article says, “MLBPA executive director Donald Fehr told House committee chairman Henry Waxman in a letter last summer that the players were not explicitly informed that they had tested positive, but only that they were on a list of players the government had seized, as part of an investigation into an illegal steroids operation.”
So, in other words, in the process of covering its own ass, the union may have communicated in a very confusing way with its members because it wanted to minimize the situation. Consider too the language barriers involved in some cases and the fact that baseball players are, in general, only marginally less stupid than hockey players.
The fact that the union didn’t just come out and tell its players how badly they’d screwed up this whole situation would also help explain some of the other strange responses to this, like Bronson Arroyo saying he wouldn’t be surprised if he were the list, since it may have only just become clear to him what letter he received in September 2004 was actually really about. I think I saw Randy Johnson say something similarly recently, too.

all this tells me is that arroyo is the only honest one…ortiz is still clinging to the “i didn’t know what what was in the milkshake defense”, just like arod clung to the “i don’t know what my cousin gave me” defense…come on guys, how naive are you?…and come on sf, you call this balanced? let’s see you sf’s bust ’em on poppy-seed the same as you did arod…no?…didn’t think so….

dc, the whole point of the thread is that we (SFs) are waiting to hear from Ortiz, who’s finally scheduled to make some comments on Saturday. Others on the thread felt that it was a joke to listen to anything Ortiz had to say because he’s obviously a lying liar, blah blah blah (sounds like you agree). But the point is: we don’t know if Ortiz is going to cling to the Milkshake Defense. That’s part of what we’re waiting to find out.

Sorry SF, there was not an accusation intended there – I’ll rephrase the point: if you are an SF who feels an Ortiz test-failure caused by supplement use will somehow be more acceptable than a failure based on his taking of something that required a needle, does that therefore mean that you feel McGwire (or Bonds for that matter) should be judged less harshly than Giambi/A-Rod/Clemens? If so, why? (And if your position is not described by the first statement above, this question is not intended for you)
Tx sw for the article-excerpt re: Fehr’s description of who was informed of what. I hadn’t read that.

What I don’t understand is that Ortiz dragging this out is clearly hurting the team if they’re going to play him. Last night:
0 for 5 with 9 LOB.
If he already has the “information” to schedule his press conference, why the wait?

@IH
I’ll rephrase the point: if you are an SF who feels an Ortiz test-failure caused by supplement use will somehow be more acceptable than a failure based on his taking of something that required a needle, does that therefore mean that you feel McGwire (or Bonds for that matter) should be judged less harshly than Giambi/A-Rod/Clemens? If so, why? (And if your position is not described by the first statement above, this question is not intended for you)
Bonds took designer steroids, IH, at least according to Fainaru-Wada and all the reports re: Balco. He was on injection schedules, etc. McGwire has yet to have been accused of such “transgressions”. I think that it might be naive to think that MM didn’t do steroids and was simply on Andro, but the narrative, at least to this point, is different for McGwire than it is for Bonds.
But if Ortiz ONLY tested positive for something that might have been in a supplement (and I have doubts, I think this wait revolves around Ortiz only wanting to cop to perhaps one illicit drug of more than one that he might have been taking), then isn’t that worth something? If he didn’t test positive for something like Winstrol, or Boli, or some other anabolic steroid that was tested for, but rather something far less “devious”, then won’t this be confusing?
Again, I don’t really have much doubt about what went on, at the same time I am curious to know what Ortiz discloses.

all this tells me is that arroyo is the only honest one
See, now I don’t think there’s any distance between what Ortiz said and what Arroyo said. They both copped to taking supplements. Arroyo happened to use the words “Andro” and “amphetamine”, so more specificity, but they cop to the exact same thing. Arroyo said that he was taking legal stuff that might show him as having a positive test. Why do we have to believe him but not Ortiz? Why is that fair to Ortiz? Why does Arroyo deserve that space and not Ortiz, particularly in the absence of any information about for what he tested positive? Serious question – this isn’t meant as a defense of any PED use by Ortiz, but rather a curiosity as to what people think are the conceptual differences between what Arroyo volunteered re: Andro and what Ortiz said about the Dominican milkshakes.

People are trying to parse what players say for honesty long past the point when they’ve shown themselves to be anything but honest. What’s the point? Why bother? Nothing they say can be trusted, so why pretend otherwise?
Every single player that has been caught has told a story to protect themselves first. The only difference with Arroyo is he’s basically said he’s on the list before being outed. That’s the same thing as protecting himself.
By the way, Arroyo’s career from 2003-2007 looks very different from the rest too. Those Sox have a lot of explaining to do, especially Manny. That’s now three players on the list. How many more?

I agree with Rob’s last point here. The players have basically ceded all of their credibility on this subject. They have all told lies and half-truths to the public when it comes to their use of PEDs. I understand the desire for SFs to see what Ortiz has to say on the subject and Im personally interested to see what direction he takes this but Ive learned over the years to take what he says basically with a grain of salt. The fact that he has taken so long to craft his story should tell you that they are trying to be very careful with what he says for a reason. An innocent man would not wait this long.
Beyond what all of the other players have done, Ortiz has begun his own “defense” in an akward fashion. Claiming to be “blindsided” by news he knew was out there and his holier-than-thou attitude towards PEDS over the years have diminished my ability to believe a word he says. I learned this lesson from A-Rod who I wanted very badly to believe was a) clean and then b) telling the full truth when he was interviewed. Time and retrospective thought about this subject have helped me learn this isnt possibly the case.
Finally, its hard to believe anyone could possibly believe that Ortiz didnt do some sort of PEDs over time. (even holding out a 5% hope) For those who do, take a step back and look at the stats. Try to forget the name and person attached to them and just look at the massive jumps in power. Then compare them to his contemporaries’ stats. Basically all of the top guys in the bigs in the early 2000s each year have been implicated at this point. The remaining few likely will soon. In my experience, acceptance of this is the best way to move on.

In my experience, acceptance of this is the best way to move on.
No doubt, Sam. But we need the other ~100 names. That’s going to be our most accurate analysis of who was using. And it will make the Mitchell Report that much more of a historical joke.

I agree SF with pretty much everything you say in response to my comment. I think that the degree of suspicion you have re: MM – and your assertion that it might be naïve to think that he didn’t do more than a supplement – matches exactly my feeling about Ortiz for the very reason I’ve cited here before and sam has noted above. Just as MM’s stats seem to be juiced by more than “Ripped” or whatever, so too (to me anyway) has Ortiz’s Min-to-Boston stats leap.
Having said that, yes I want to see what he discloses and I totally disagree with any blanket description of players’ (i.e. they have “all” ceded credibility on this issue, etc, etc). Each person is distinct and handles things differently. Giambi handled things differently then Clemens who handled them differently from McGwire, etc. And there are those players who did none of this stuff.

i guess i was jumping the gun…i’ll let ortiz state his case, and then draw conclusions…sadly, i have my doubts…

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