Gary Sheffield’s option has been exercised by the Yankees, who intend to trade the 38-year-old ballplayer to (team not in Boston).
Nothing to do with baseball, but wow, New England fans are even bigger a*holes than I thought….Booing Vinatieri – very classy. Well done!
Yeah, in New England, we wait until they’re actually off our team to boo them. Collectively, we just assume that booing a player while he’s still playing for our team is counter-productive, so we try (albeit sometimes unsuccessfully), to wait until they take oversized contracts with direct rivals. Then later, we laugh when said players are unmovable, unproductive, and constantly battling old-age injuries to go along with the extra millions they’ve swindled away from over-anxious, headline-craving general managers.
If anything is a**hole-ish, it’s that blanket statement, Yankee – monkey. You should be careful which wall you throw stones at, some of them are glass and others throw back.
It is odd that they would boo Vinatieri though — considering it was the ownership’s decision not to bring him back. It wasn’t a Damon situation, by any stretch, where the athlete pledges to take a hometown discount, say he could never play for the rival, then signs with the rival for a marginal raise and bashes the team on his way out of town.
Anyway, Sox fans have had their unfortunate moments too — booing Millar and Foulke after what they did for Boston was especially classless.
YM, I was surprised by that reaction as well.
Paul, you’re correct that the situation is different than with Damon, but perhaps you and I differ in our respective connotation of “marginal”.
“Yeah, in New England, we wait until they’re actually off our team to boo them.”
“booing Millar and Foulke after what they did for Boston was especially classless.”
Hmm… (thanks Paul)
Okay New York Fans let’s not adopt a false – holier than thou – state of mind. Vinatieri heard The Colts offer and took it, without going back to NE for their final counter. Vinatieri, knows that to get into the hall of fame on his aging legs he needs the ease of the turf in Indy, he took the money and the fame over the team. What he did for us was heroic and we will always thank him for that. But for the love of GOD if you are from NEW YORK please, please, please don’t lecture us about booing. Hypocrites all.
shawncody, it sounds like you are the one doing the lecturing. I don’t necessarily agree with YM that all Pats fans are a-holes because they booed someone who was a hero in New England; that’s a generalization. I stated a fact: I was somewhat surprised that he was booed on his first appearance.
I also don’t agree with you that an individual is a hypocrite if they state an opinion about jeering just because they happen to be a New Yorker or a Yankee fan. Many YFs at this site have been highly critical of the booing of home players at The Stadium.
He took money and fame over the team.
Fame, he had. I would say that the team took money over him.
No problem, Andrews … I think.
speaking of a-holes, sheff is a huge one. we’ve gotten off topic.
Pick up his option and trade him to one of 7 teams interested (according to XM), or let him walk and get nothing. No surprise at all the yanks did the former. According to his agent Sheff will report to the new team and give 100 percent, as always.
sf rod, you should have made it known sooner that you know the man personally. That’s really the only sure way to cast judgement on the man’s character…
don’t have to know the man to know he’s an a-hole. whether it’s gary chasing an opposing teams little league coach around a parking lot with a baseball bat, or gary tanking balls to force a trade with the brewers, i’m certain he’s an a-hole. i’m going out on a limb here but….hitler was an a-hole. i didn’t know the man, but it’s just a hunch.
sf-rod. You’ve automatically caused this thread to be closed. A couple years ago I made the same comparison, and shortly there after YF informed me that I’d caused some sort of argument ending clause to go into affect because I mentioned Hitler, in comparisons sake. I can’t now remember what’s it called, but I’m sure you’ll be getting it shortly.
Godwin’s Law, formulated in 1990:
“As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.”
It has since morphed into an informal rule that whoever is first to make a comparison to Hitler automatically loses the debate.
That said, Sheff = a-hole.
my instinct was to go with a GWB analogy, but didn’t want to stoke that fire. i’ve recieved one of those “you’ve gone too far” emails myself. i guess there’s another one comming,
It’s called Godwin’s Law. It basically states that as an online discussion gets longer, the probability that someone will mention Hitler or Nazis approaches one. Google for it. It’s been around since before teh intraweb back and was formulated by Mike Godwin in somewhere around 1990. It started getting invoked back in the good old days of Usenet discussions; whoever brings it up, loses the argument and closes the thread. Sometimes I miss the Usenet (pre-web) days. Made me feel like a cowboy.
Curious, Paul, why you think Sheff= a-hole. The guy has a big mouth, says stupid things sometimes, and is obviously an egomaniac, but you could say the same things about Schilling and lots of other players. Bottom line for me -he’s a tough competitor, on the field or off. He’s played through injuries – remember, in ’05 he played most of the second half with a shoulder so bad he couldn’t raise his arm above his head – for the good of the team.
I don’t question his commitment or devotion or willingness to play through pain for “the team” (which not coincidentally may increase his ability to get a Series ring), but anyone who uses steroids fits that definition for me in a generic sense (even if they’ve got a great personality, a la Mr. Giambi). sf rod threw some examples out for us all to chew over. You rarely hear people say good things about him in regards to his clubhouse persona, ability to get along with guys, etc. It’s nearly completely, universally negative, unlike Schilling and others (say, Manny Ramirez), who have their critics, sure, but also have a lot of people in current and former clubhouses who respect and like them.
Hitler comparisons aside, it is indeed disingenuous to say you can’t know someone is an a-hole without knowing them personally. Hundreds of people have played with, played against, been around and reported on each individual baseball player. A genuinely nice guy doesn’t just get branded a jerk.
Paul, that’s just not true. I remember an interview with Chipper Jones a few years back in which he lauded Sheff as a great teammate. During his time with the Yanks, did you hear any complaints about him as a teammate? I didn’t. The negative comments come exclusively from beat reporters who don’t play on his team. As for Schilling, there have been many more negative comments directed his way from anonymous teammates.
Another thing: Ted Williams, who was one of the most progressive, coolest players ever to play the game was branded a jerk by the media. The thing was the media were the a-holes.
Well, maybe I’ve just bought into the media hype, Nick. If so, I’m sorry. As we’ve seen with Manny (and Ted Williams and Alex Rodriguez, etc.), the media can certainly shape the perception. Usually, though, players will defend the player, and with today’s media (blogs, TV, radio, etc.), there are far more fora for a player’s supporters to make their voices known. Poor Williams lived in a time when it was the papers or nothing. Not that I have anything against the newspaper, of couse… Hehe.
I don’t give a crap about anonymous bashing though. If a player doesn’t have the guts to bck up his words, then I can’t put much stock in what he has to say… Sure, there have been players who have openly criticized Schilling — but it’s hard to categorize a guy who graciously answered questions here an a-hole.
Maybe that’s the ticket for Sheff!
…you guys don’t like sheff because he was/is a yankee, far less venom for bonds and others…as for damon and vinatieri, in the earlier posts, in both cases the players went where they felt they would be more respected and more appreciated [they were not getting either of those things from their ownerships at the time]…given what both did for their respective teams booing them is a bummer…brad, you guys are very quick to point out when yank fans act without class, and i agree it’s frequent, so take it like a man, your fellow fans are guilty on occasion as well, and with damon and v. those are classic examples…
“it is indeed disingenuous to say you can’t know someone is an a-hole without knowing them personally.”
You’re right, but I’ve personally heard quite enough of sf rod’s rips on yankee players( and in one case, Posada’s kid).
” A genuinely nice guy doesn’t just get branded a jerk”
Or called a “horse every five days and a horse’s ass in between” by his former GM.
I have to be honest, dc, and I’ve not chimed in on this yet, but my dislike for Sheff started when it came out that he was purposely botching plays in Milwaukee. Just ridiculous. And to think, that’s not the worst thing that man has done to bismirch the already questionable integrity of this game we all watch.
It’s only natural Sheff come up more than Bonds/Sosa/Palmeiro etc. He’s an unlikable character as he is portrayed by the media and a great majority of his former teammates, and he has been a Yankee the last few years. This is a Yankee/Red Sox-based website.
There’s reason to question whether either Vinatieri or Damon gave the respective ownership a chance to show them proper $$$, sorry, I mean respect.
Honestly, I’m disappointed only slightly in the Vinatieri booing. Remember when he was quoted as saying he could never play for one of the team’s main rivals, and then signed with them the following offseason? Oh wait. He didn’t do that. Never said anything like that. That was someone else. He had some interest in returning, didn’t shoot his mouth off, and the Patriots didn’t express enough reciprocal interest, at least in part due to his declining range as a kicker. I have no problem with the move by the Patriots.
I somewhat wish that kickers were announced before games, just so possibly NE fans could’ve given him something positive. But he comes out on the field for kickoffs and field goal/extra point attempts. Are cheers going to rattle his performance? No. Are multiple signs boasting: Vinatieri is #1 going to shake his confidence? No. I have no problem with fans doing all they can (within legal limits) to distract a player on an opposing team from doing their job properly. You could argue that that is part of their job as fans. There was no point at which it would have been appropriate to give Vinatieri positive encouragement.
The Damon situation, well as I’ve alluded to with my poorly-veiled sarcasm, is completely different. He said something and then did the opposite. I felt lied to. Betrayed. There were questionable moves in the Red Sox FO and questionable motives/antics used in the Boras camp. The end result CAN be simplified to the extent that Damon lied to Red Sox fans. It can certainly be extrapolated in other ways as well.
It’s an unlikely scenario, but what would YFs do if the Sox signed Pettite or Mussina this offseason. Would there be boos, would there be cheers? The answer is not really important, because it’s clear there would probably be mixed feelings within all YFs on the issue. In the end, the sight of “Boston” on the uniform might end up sealing the deal for most, and I don’t see anything wrong with that.
…you guys act like a scorned lover, quo…damon made no real promises because he assumed the sox would deal in good faith, but they started to play the “you’re washed up card”…ask clemens and pedro about that one…no, damon shot himself in the foot when he opened his mouth saying he wanted to stay in beantown and not go to the hated rival, and the sox mgmt was more than happy to screw him over it…had the sox offered equal money, he would have stayed…let’s face it, it’s about the money…i don’t know what you do for a living, but if you could have an equal job for substantially more money and security, don’t even insult me by trying to convince me that you wouldn’t take the better offer…
…should i be pissed because clemens retired, then unretired, then signed with houston, taking his buddy pettite with him, never really giving the yankees a chance?…should we ask him to give back his retirement gifts?…or boo him every time we see him?…
You nailed it dc. I acknowledged that the FO made some entirely questionable moves over the Damon situation, and you completely nailed the fact that Damon shot himself in the foot. I guarantee you, that deep inside, he’s not surprised by the reception he’s gotten at Fenway. Not one bit.
Scorned lover? Your tone is simultaneously offensive and defensive, dc. It’s absolutely ridiculous. Would I take the better offer? Sure. But a difference in salary for me is not what it is for Damon. I’m not choosing between 10/11 million or 12/13 million. If I chose a different job based on a higher salary, it would mean the difference in what kind of school my future kids might be able to attend, how many kids I could have, what kind of life I could provide for them. It’s an unfair comparison. It is truly, unless you have it I’d imagine, an almost unfathomable amount of money.
Look, if Damon wanted more money, fine. I can’t denigrate him for that. That extra porsche or two really comes in handy around the holiday season. He knew what the fans’ reaction would be, even if he professes to be shocked and amazed by it. He saw firsthand for years the way Yankee players were booed when they came to Fenway. Personally, as far as I’m concerned, I’ll cheer him when he’s on his farewell tour as a 4th OFer and DH for the Indians or Mariners, and I’ll boo him as long as he’s a Yankee.
On the Clemens situation, have you seen a lot of heartfelt and tender expressions towards him from either SFs or YFs lately? A lot of YFs here singing his praises? No. Asking him for his retirement gifts back would be as classless as unretiring 18 different times just for the attention.
…about clemens, i could care less…i am happy about what he did in ny, and my suggestion that he give back the gifts was facetious, and while obviously i wouldn’t want him to be helpful to the sox team, i doubt that i’d boo him, even in a sox uniform…i just don’t have that kind of animosity for him…i was just making the point that neither damon nor vinatieri owes any apologies…
…when you say you don’t think the comparison to you [or the average non-pro athlete] is fair when discussing salary perspective, i can only assume that you expected damon to accept LESS money and security, simply because he already makes enough…huh?…think about that for a minute…huh?…did any of your free agent signings accept less money or security to sign with you, or is there a different standard for the guys that leave?…
…you say you don’t begrudge damon the money, but your comments are dripping with sarcasm about him not needing another million, or another porche…the shock and outrage that damon might be greedy is comical…aren’t all free agents greedy, including the ones you’ve signed?…expecting that there is a whole lot of loyalty among players for teams and fans is naive in the free agent era…just as naive perhaps as damon expecting that he wouldn’t be booed in boston…you’ve admitted that you’re booing the uniform and not the man, and i’m ok with that…i guess i’d do the same thing, for certain players…but, i guess it’s easier to blame him than the managment and ownership that you’re stuck with…they ain’t goin’ nowhere, and they [like the patriots] can spin the snot out of this stuff to make it look totally like the player’s fault…sorry, i know you don’t like the reference, but you and your sf friends sound like scorned lovers with regard to damon and vinatieri….
It’s not that I don’t like the reference, so much as that it de-values your argument. To some degree, you accuse me of being petty, and I’ll admit I took a cheap shot at Damon regarding money. How is you referring to all SFs as scorned lovers any better and/or different? It simply makes you come off as rude and a fair bit petty yourself. If it makes you feel clever then go right ahead, I suppose.
Honestly, as far as the spin is concerned, you’re absolutely right. The Patriots and the Red Sox (and probably the Bruins and the Celtics as well) are the only professional sports franchises who do such things. If you had read carefully, I acknowledge the fact that both FOs handled the situation(s) less than gracefully. Sure, that would make your points harder to argue and put out there. Do I think the FO dropped the ball on Damon, at least to some degree? Yes. Do I think the Patriots FO could have made a little more effort to make Vinatieri feel wanted? Sure. Doesn’t change the fact that they are still playing for rival teams.
You want spin? How about some YFs here and elsewhere, as well as Sheff’s agent and the Yankees FO trying to make nice about the situation with his contract now? A week ago, he made comments that hardly needed to be embellished to make him look like he’d be a clubhouse cancer to any team he might end up with. Now, apparently, none of that matters, as Gary will be playing hard for any team he goes to (not sure why this was in question, he’s certainly never dogged it for a team he didn’t like being on in the past, on purpose, in order to get traded), and there’s certainly no possibility that he is an a-hole. Not even close. This man is a model citizen, and heck, he can play all four corner positions. He’ll be an asset to any team, and coming off of wrist surgery in his late 30s, still guaranteed to be a potent offensive threat. He’s certainly worth one younger major-league ready player or pitcher, or two mid-tier prospects. Absolutely. There’s no chance this man could be a bust, a malcontent, or a potential clubhouse poision.
…quo, i don’t think you were being petty…you just don’t agree with me about who the villians are in the damon and vinatieri situations…i don’t think i’m petty when i’m being clever, but that’s your opinion, and i’m ok with it…i think you guys are overly sensitive, but that’s not intended as an insult, just an observation…i’m not as good a fan, i have a hard time staying interested and being willing to defend them when they don’t win and do the wrong things…
…as far as the spin is concerned, all teams do it to some extent to keep the fans interested, especially those that exist in large media markets, overcharge for even the bad seats, haven’t had a lot of success, and repeatedly try to sell us marginal players as the next [or still] superstars…sounds like both of our teams…
…like i’ve said, you guys are on sheff a lot more now that you can’t have him…i saw projected lineup scenarios, if i remember right even by an sf on this site, that had him penciled into your 2007 lineup batting behind oritz…i think this was in anticipation of manny leaving…and i don’t blame you for being down on gary, he’s worn out his welcome with me too, and he is getting old, and coming off a tough injury…but, to be fair, he has produced for the yankees, and there’s no reason not to believe that he might be of some help to one of the more desperate teams out there, baggage and all…i read yesterday that as many as 7 teams are interested…while the consensus is that the yanks won’t get much in return, they do expect some value, particularly given the multi-club interest, they will dump the salary, and they kept him away from boston and the mets [both of whom expressed interest, despite what i’m hearing on this site]…since he’s so spiteful, he may have signed with one of them…now that is petty on the yankees part…
It’s a lot of money over 4 years.. after which he would retire (or close to it), so it probably makes sense to get as much as he can before he retires..
dc – how is that petty on the Yankees part? If you ask me, that’s pretty damn smart, if a little cold. But then Sheff isn’t exactly the nicest guy anyhow, so meh.
dc, I simply don’t agree that the Red Sox and Patriots braintrusts are the only villains in the story, if it’s even fair to call them that. Both sides did wrong.
Also, no players, in the age of free agency, have taken pay cuts/less than market value to stay with a team they feel loyalty to? Tell that to Bernie Williams or Tim Wakefield. Tell that to Mariano Rivera, who I’m sure would take slightly less than market value to remain a Yankee (I don’t think he’ll be forced to make that decision, as the Yankees have the resources, reason, and a smart enough GM to make sure he’s well-compensated).
And yes, the comparision you made is BS. My Dad was recently offered a job in another state that would have greatly increased his salary. However, he, my mom, and my younger sister are comfortable here, and he also feels a sense of loyalty to the company he’s working for right now. Not everyone chases only the money. Everyone wants comfort, respect, etc., and sure it doesn’t always mean the same thing to everyone.
Damon chased the money. Vinatieri did the same, as well as wanting the chance to pad a career that ALREADY would have made him the second kicker in the NFL HoF. They chose those things, just as you can make the argument that both FOs undervalued them as free agents. Choices = consequences, no matter what kind of choices you’re talking about. I can agree with you that the Patriots and the Red Sox are getting *somewhat* of a free pass on both, though you’ve gotta figure at least Gostkowski will prove to be the smarter bet than the aging Vinatieri over the next few years, especially when he gets a higher degree of confidence. The replacement for Damon hasn’t been as successful, and there have been plenty of SFs here and elsewhere up in arms about him and the decision not to budge on the perceived value of Damon in FA talks. Obviously, Lucchino has been a popular target, and why not? He’s a good businessman and a poor baseball man. He’s been vilified by the press in Boston, as well as by a lot of SFs here. I’m surprised he hasn’t come out to the press and defended himself, pointing out the improvements to Fenway Park, and the surrounding neighborhood, that he can probably quite legitimately take credit for, as well as what he accomplished business-wise for the Padres. He hasn’t done that, and to some degree, I think that actually speaks well of his character.
My point, after that long-winded rant, is that both sides were at fault in both cases. It’s IMPOSSIBLE to assign “blame” to just one side. Absolutely impossible. And even if it were, it would be most possible in the Vinatieri case, and that one has already, to at least some degree, been the much smarter decision in a business-sense AND in a football-sense.
I’m not sure it’s *possible* for SFs to be “on” Sheff more now than over the entirety of his career as a Yankee, especially after his steroid usage was revealed. Sure, the Yankees will get some value, but with his injury, he’s to some degree an unknown quantity.
I don’t think any SFs here were trying to say the Sox FO didn’t have interest in Sheff, that’d be impossible to say. Most SFs here just expressed their disinterest in taking on a known steroid-user with extremely questionable character, who is NOT guaranteed to even come close to his production of a couple years ago. Not sure what’s wrong with that in the first place. We’ve already got a somewhat unknown (with great potential) offensive quantity who can’t play RF. Why would we want another one who is over a decade older?
On a side note, you really don’t need to say you weren’t accusing me of being petty. You weren’t, outright. You correctly pointed out my cheap shot at Damon re: money, though I still think I’m right about that one. I probably shouldn’t have brought that word up in the first place.
Quo, I basically agree with your assessment regarding the Vin and Damon situations. However,I think bringing up your father’s decision is not perfectly applicable because unlike athletes, he probably didn’t have to deal with pressure from a union. People seem to forget that the players association plays a role in influencing players’ decisions with regards to free agency. Billy Wagner wanted to re-sign with Philly a year before his contract was up but the PA pressured him to test free agency because they wanted him boosting up the market value. It’s obviosly a strong union that relies on players keeping in step. I’m not sure it makes it entirely defensible that players go for the money, but it does provide the context in which they make these money-first decisions. I think the nature of the union and free agency makes it rare for players’ to give home-town discounts.
The interesting thing about the Sheff-Red Sox connection was Theo’s reported interest in him if he were to become available. What would a Sheff signing have meant for the future of the Sox? It seems that it would have had to necessitate a few other moves, unless Wily Mo was going to be a bench player. But it could have meant that Theo was/is thinking about aggressively moving Manny this off-season and is thinking about possible replacements in the line-up for him.
You’re right on on the union point, Nick. The point I was getting across was a response to dc’s question of whether or not I would take a job based on higher salary in my own life. Unfortunately, I’ve not been faced with a decision like that, and that situation was the best parallel I could provide for him, given his request.
If my Dad were part of some non-existant union of accounts/comptrollers/CFOs, it would certainly end up being a better comparison.
Apparently I’ve decided accountants will now be abbreviated to “accounts” in 2007.
quo, i did incorrectly say that ALL free agents are greedy, which i then modified in the same post with this comment: “…expecting that there is a whole lot of loyalty among players for teams and fans is naive in the free agent era…”…i do still believe that statement, particularly for the overwhelming majority of free agents in their prime…the 2 examples you gave, bernie and wakefield, are different because they are clearly on the downside of their careers, probably feel comfortable and appreciated where they are, and understand that they may not get much more money on the open market…bernie in particular wants to retire a yankee…rivera’s contract is pure speculation at this point…i don’t know how much of those players feelings are based on fan loyalty, which was my original point in discussing damon’s and vinatieri’s alleged disloyalty to their fans and teams…in damon’s case, he made it clear that he had certain expectations which the team elected not to meet…his main crime seems to be in naively thinking that the FO wouldn’t leverage his comments against him…that hung him out to dry with fans who feel like he misled them…
…your comment that my comparison is “BS” is a little harsh, since i know you don’t like insults…your dad sounds like a good man who made the right decision for him and his family…i made a similar decision early in my career…but, all things considered, when an individual is presented with an offer of more money, and does not have the kinds of factors to consider that your dad and i did, the money will usually win…i think that’s particularly true with athletes, who face the reality of a limited window of top earning potential, and generally a shorter career than the average non-athlete…fans can continue to carry grudges against players who say they don’t want to leave, but then do for more money, but it may not always be fair to do so…i’m also seeing some posts about union pressure…valid point when you consider that it was the union who prevented arod from taking less [or deferring more, i forget which] money to come to the sox…
Strange thought just occurred to me, remembering how the Yankees feigned interest in Mirabelli to drive up the price for the Sox during that whole fiasco.
What if the Sox feigned interest in Sheffield, thus forcing the Yanks to pick up his contract and run the risk of getting stuck with him? It keeps the Yanks from getting a draft pick in return for the loss to free agency, although it runs the risk that the Yanks could get some good value back in a trade. On the OTHER hand, it’s pretty clear, I think, that Sheff (for all the reasons mentioned) is unlikely to fetch the Yankees anything incredibly useful.
Just a thought.
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