The Hot Stove: Set to Broil

In his interview with reporters yesterday, Joe Girardi was asked to comment on the Yanks-Sox rivalry, and the fact that it’s been so prominent this off-season: “I think it’s what makes baseball great. Sometimes it’s nice to pull back and just be a fan and say, you know what, this is what makes our game so great. It never really stops. It never takes a break.” He’s right, and the traffic on this site bears him out. You might be surprised to learn that we’ve had more visitors here in each of the past few days than we did on any day of the postseason. Are we really more interested in the soap opera of off-season maneuvering than we are in the actual games that matter? I doubt it. My guess: the discussion here acts as something of a substitute or surrogate for the games we’re not watching. It’s also worth noting that hot stove talk is purely speculative, and this draws at both the strengths and weaknesses of the blog form. In absence of any concrete information, every post and every comment becomes a work of opinion. And we all love to air our own opinions, to find them affirmed and reaffirmed in a public forum. The ironic corollary to this situation is that the less we seem to know, the more entrenched and intense opinions become. We all think we’re right, and in the absence of any proof to the contrary, no opinion can be categorically refuted. And so the threads grow and grow and grow as we wait and wait and wait for something to happen. No other sport casts such a shadow on our imaginations; it’s why baseball’s literary canon far outpaces that of any other game. How long until pitchers and catchers report?

239 comments… add one
  • 70 days, 21 hr, 9 min, 20 sec
    if they report at 10am that is!

    sam-YF December 5, 2007, 12:50 pm
  • well said, YF!
    Obviously you are not aware of the great literary canaon surrounding bowling, but otherwise your post is perfect.

    Nick-YF December 5, 2007, 12:51 pm
  • Beautifully said, YF.

    SF December 5, 2007, 12:56 pm
  • I love base ball.

    Atheose December 5, 2007, 1:05 pm
  • Only Cricket comes close (Hope Joba’s not alllergic to bee stings.)
    This from “News Services”– A swarm of bees breifly halted play in the cricket test between host Sri Lanka and England when they flow across Asgiriya Stadium in Kandy, forcing players to lay motionless on the ground. The bees were first spotted by Pakistani umpire Asad Rauf, who lay down on the field…The players soon followed, with both teams remaining on the gorund for several minutes until the bees moved on.

    Zooboy December 5, 2007, 1:19 pm
  • OH God.. I’d have vomitted. I HATE bees. My mom is allergic to them and although I am not, growing up with her filled me with disliek for them

    Dionysus December 5, 2007, 1:22 pm
  • I’m new to the site, I had to move back in with my parents after I got laid off, and my new job sucks. so suffice it to say, the Sox and Pats seasons have been the highlight of my year – and the blogs keep my mind off of screaming out during the day, “I’m George!…I’M GEORGE!”

    Lyndsay December 5, 2007, 1:28 pm
  • Sooo, is this the new Sa(n)tan(a) thread?

    Hudson December 5, 2007, 1:39 pm
  • Personally, I like to see him as Santa – na

    AndrewYF December 5, 2007, 1:46 pm
  • Ho. Ho. Ho.

    Adrian (YF) December 5, 2007, 1:51 pm
  • Cricket is actually pretty cool… I was in Ascot (England) last July and caught a match, and it’s VERY popular among the Indian population in England. It has a lot of intricate rules and strategies, very similar to the great parts of baseball. Plus, you can hit a homerun in any direction (360 degrees)!

    Atheose December 5, 2007, 2:00 pm
  • From ESPN’s blog:
    “12:15 p.m., from Peter Gammons
    • Don’t expect to see a Twins-Red Sox or Twins-Yankees whopper. The sense is now that Minnesota will hold onto Johan Santana.”
    Pleasebetrue, pleasebetrue, pleasebetrue…

    Mark (YF) December 5, 2007, 2:02 pm
  • that Minnesota will hold onto Johan Santana
    Gammons forgot the …”until the Yankees end up trading for him” part of that sentence.

    SF December 5, 2007, 2:06 pm
  • Johan: Satan or Santa? YFSF reports, we decide.

    Hudson December 5, 2007, 2:06 pm
  • Can’t help but give Cash some credit for winning this game of chicken with Minnesota, which is exactly how I see what has happened here…at least so far.

    IronHorse (yf) December 5, 2007, 2:10 pm
  • From ESPN:
    “Since news broke of the Marlins-Tigers blockbuster, Detroit left-hander Andrew Miller has not heard a word from anyone in the Tigers’ organization. One of Miller’s agents ran into Jim Leyland in the hotel lobby Tuesday night, and Leyland told him the deal wasn’t anywhere close to getting done”
    Apparently this may be just because of medical examinations, but how could the team not alert Miller, at the least?

    SF December 5, 2007, 2:10 pm
  • Can’t help but give Cash some credit for winning this game of chicken with Minnesota, which is exactly how I see what has happened here…at least so far.
    According to Bill Madden of the News the Yankees turned down a deal that didn’t include any of the guys they said were off-limits: Kennedy, Tabata, Jackson, Horne, Betances, etc., but rather it included two lesser prospects. He apparently says the Yankees became money-conscious and got cold feet.
    If true (and it very well may not be), how did the Yankees win a game of chicken?

    SF December 5, 2007, 2:12 pm
  • meanwhile, reports are that the Sox are now back in talks with the Twins. Will Carroll still thinks there’s a 95% chance Johan lands in Boston.

    Nick-YF December 5, 2007, 2:13 pm
  • what the hell does in talks again mean? what else is there to talk about? there arent any more trades that can be proposed between these two teams.

    sam-YF December 5, 2007, 2:16 pm
  • and espn blog is reporting that the yanks are “99.99% out” of the Santana derby but apparently not 100% out.

    rootbeerfloat December 5, 2007, 2:18 pm
  • SF, apparently the sticking point was not only $, but Hughes. Cashman never wanted to include Hughes in the deal. Interesting. Don’t know how he thought they were going to get him unless they realllly liked Melky, LOL.

    John - YF December 5, 2007, 2:18 pm
  • Well said, indeed. It’s a thinking man’s sport through and through where imagination constantly tugs at “what if?” while reality intercedes with what is.
    Perfect topic for a longer treatment, perhaps?

    Mike YF December 5, 2007, 2:25 pm
  • I fear, John, that might be a new meme that YFs are constantly battling around here. Madden makes clear that it was money and Hughes.

    Mike YF December 5, 2007, 2:27 pm
  • There are three possible outcomes here, and I don’t see how Cashman wins in any of them:
    1) The Sox get Santana at the cost of some players they can sare, and have the most fearsome rotation in baseball;
    2) The Twins keep Santana or deal him to a third team, leaving the Sox with a true #1 and the Yankees without one (_pace_ Wang);
    3) The Yankees get Santana at a pyrrhic cost that leaves their farm system emptied, top prospects gone, and fans fuming.

    Hudson December 5, 2007, 2:28 pm
  • So the Yankees won the game of chicken before they lost it? Or I guess the other way around.
    They included Hughes but pulled out after the Twins actually came back with an offer that met all the Yankees’ requirements. It sounds like the Yankees might not have been as serious from the beginning as we thought, no?

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 2:30 pm
  • 4) Twins keep Santana, he becomes a FA next year, Yankees sign him and get to keep the farm system.

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 2:32 pm
  • Why is it assumed the Yankees will sign Santana if he becomes a free agent?
    Two words: Omar Minaya.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 2:33 pm
  • SF & Paul SF:
    My game of chicken remark is based on Cashman not giving in on things the Yankees didn’t want to give up just because the rumors of Johan to Boston were heating up like crazy. You can call it cold feet and I would still feel the same way. The Boston trade rumors could have pushed Cashman to just overlook those cold feet and make a deal that included more than the Yankees wanted to give. I credit him with resisting that urge – that’s all.

    IronHorse (yf) December 5, 2007, 2:33 pm
  • 5) Santana wanted to play ONLY for the Yankees and the Tins over played their hand, ending up giving the Yankees Santana for four guys sans Hughes.

    walein December 5, 2007, 2:34 pm
  • It is interesting to me that, all of a sudden, there’s no longer a question of who’s in charge – Cashman or Hank. Does that mean that the whole “Cashman marginalized” thing was BS after all?

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 2:36 pm
  • 6) Neither the Yankees nor the Red Sox want to spend that money (I’d be interested to see Theo talking with Henry: “How about setting the franchise record for a contract for a guy not named Babe?”) and Santana ending up on the Dodgers.

    walein December 5, 2007, 2:36 pm
  • Cashman “marginalized” referred mainly to the handling of Torre (I think).

    walein December 5, 2007, 2:38 pm
  • meanwhile, reports are that the Sox are now back in talks with the Twins. Will Carroll still thinks there’s a 95% chance Johan lands in Boston.
    Translation: 5% chance Johan lands in Boston.

    AndrewYF December 5, 2007, 2:41 pm
  • “It sounds like the Yankees might not have been as serious from the beginning as we thought, no?”
    Paul you might be 100% right. Listened to Sweeney Murti earlier and it seems from what he is saying that the Yankees (especially Cashman) really, genuinely, whole heartedly believe in Hughes, Joba and IPK are going to be successful at the ML level. So the belief is that what we have is good enough to win. Here’s where the problem comes in it’s been 7 seasons since they last won a WS title. They are opening a new stadium next season, there is a new regime, a new manager, a new team philosophy. All of those things in theory are GOOD things, but in New York? How patient are New York fans going to be when Phil, Joba or IPK hit some bumps. How patient are New York fans going to be when it’s July and we are 10 games out of 1st place and 5 out of the WC? I will get behind whatever product they put on the field (remember I lived through the Alvaro Espinoza and Domingo Jean Era) but how many fans will show patience when the patience is needed? It’s something I am very, very interested to see.

    John - YF December 5, 2007, 2:41 pm
  • 7) Omar Minaya is able to get Johan from the Twins for a package of Gomez, Martinez and Pelfry, at which point Omar pulls off his clock, revealing a double-handled light-saber, and cackles “Good…good.”

    walein December 5, 2007, 2:42 pm
  • “cloak” not clock….uggg.

    walein December 5, 2007, 2:43 pm
  • How patient are New York fans going to be when Phil, Joba or IPK hit some bumps. How patient are New York fans going to be when it’s July and we are 10 games out of 1st place and 5 out of the WC? I will get behind whatever product they put on the field (remember I lived through the Alvaro Espinoza and Domingo Jean Era) but how many fans will show patience when the patience is needed? It’s something I am very, very interested to see.
    Just look at this year. We were not very patient.

    AndrewYF December 5, 2007, 2:43 pm
  • 7) A random team we haven’t heard involved in the talks sweeps in with an offer no one thought of and lands Santana in the next 15 minutes.
    This could go on and on and on and on…
    The only scenario in which I would consider this a win for the Yanks is if they trade for him this offseason (assuming a reasonable cost) or sign him next offseason. Even at the cost of Hughes and Kennedy, I think they need that No. 1 pitcher. But I understand why others feel that price is too high.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 2:45 pm
  • I think there will be a bit more patience this year then there will be in 2009. Now, if the Sox get Santana, or Haren, or any major piece OVER the Yankees and that player becomes super-fantastic in their 2008 campaign things may get a little spooky in Yankee Village.

    walein December 5, 2007, 2:46 pm
  • the Yankees (especially Cashman) really, genuinely, whole heartedly believe in Hughes, Joba and IPK are going to be successful at the ML level.
    I think Cashman is a very good GM and a smart man, but if he really believes this, he has let sentimentality affect his reason. The odds that three prospects of any kind — let alone all starting pitchers — all fulfill their promise are astronomical. There is the Zito-Mulder-Hudson example, but there’s also the Wilson-Pulsipher-Isringhausen example, never mind the Pavano-Rose example.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 2:48 pm
  • I was looking through some games at last year, when I came across the 7th inning of a game against Seattle on September 5th:
    Bottom of the 7th, Yankees Batting, Behind 1-2, Jarrod Washburn facing 4-5-6
    R — 7 A Rodriguez Home Run (Fly Ball to LF)
    — 3 R Cano Reached on E4 (Ground Ball)
    George Sherrill replaces Jarrod Washburn pitching
    O 1– 2 S Duncan Bunt Groundout: P-2B; Cano to 2B
    -2- 5 J Giambi Walk
    12- 6 W Betemit Walk; Cano to 3B; Giambi to 2B
    Sean Green replaces George Sherrill pitching; Jorge Posada pinch hits for Jose Molina batting 9th; Bobby Abreu pinch runs for Jason Giambi batting 7th
    R 123 5 J Posada Walk; Cano Scores/unER; Abreu to 3B; Betemit to 2B
    Eric O’Flaherty replaces Sean Green pitching
    RO 123 1 J Damon Groundout: 2B-SS/Forceout at 2B; Abreu Scores/Team unER; Betemit to 3B
    R 1-3 2 M Cabrera Single to RF (Ground Ball); Betemit Scores/Team unER; Damon to 3B
    Brandon Morrow replaces Eric O’Flaherty pitching
    RR 1-3 2 D Jeter Double to CF (Fly Ball); Damon Scores/Team unER; Cabrera Scores/Team unER; Jeter to 3B/Adv on throw
    RR –3 4 A Rodriguez Home Run (Fly Ball to LF); Jeter Scores/Team unER; Rodriguez Scores/Team unER
    — 4 R Cano Walk
    Rick White replaces Brandon Morrow pitching
    O 1– 6 S Duncan Groundout: 3B-1B
    Two homeruns in the same inning. I forgot about this. Unreal.

    AndrewYF December 5, 2007, 2:50 pm
  • Heyman at CNNSI is saying the Sox may become a factor for Fukudome…. can he play CF and if so could this be because Boston intends to send Ellsbury to the Twins and dont want to retain Crisp?

    Anonymous December 5, 2007, 2:51 pm
  • campaign things may get a little spooky in Yankee Village.
    And freaking hilarious. This board will be littered with comments if this happens while the three Yankee rookies get hit hard. It’s okay, though. As it turns out, this scenario falls directly in line with Cashman’s contract end, so the blame can be passed (as it should).

    Brad December 5, 2007, 2:54 pm
  • Yankee fans weren’t patient this year? On May 29, the Sox were 14 1/2 games ahead of the Yanks, the stadium was sold out every night and the fans were cheering.
    Second, I usually love the hot stove league. I don’t love waiting to hear if the Sox get Santana.
    This is a real damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation. I support not making the trade, but if the Sox get him instead …

    A YF December 5, 2007, 2:55 pm
  • yeah, that was impressive Andrew.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 2:55 pm
  • I want to take back my comment yesterday about the organizational solidarity of the Yankee Regime.
    If Cashman didn’t want to part with Hughes, then why was he in the offer? Was there an offer, was it a real offer? Did Hank put in the offer and then get “convinced” to pull it back by Cashman? Cause as far as I know, last weekend the organizational plan was Hughes-for-Santana. Where was Cashman then?
    Was Cashman strapped to a bed in Soho, Blackberry battery dead, waiting for the spirit of the Yankees to save him in time for him to break into Hank’s office, duct-tape still binding his hands together, and scream “No! By Thor’s Hammer, this trade can not be completed. Its Phil Freaking Hughes!”
    I’m serious.
    How does the organizational philosophy of today mesh with the philosophy of last week? Can we really expect it to change like this on a weekly basis? Or does Cashman whip out a Neurolyzer and make the entire Yankee regime act as if they were never interested in Santana to begin with?
    And then of course, he’s going to wear a heavy cowl and look the fandom in the face and say “These young pitchers are the ones you’ve been looking for.

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 2:56 pm
  • Brad,
    You see a lot of Yankee fans dumping on Yankee players and FO here? I don’t.
    I see a lot of Sox fans dumping on Sox and Yankee players and FO.

    A YF December 5, 2007, 2:58 pm
  • Ellsbury on EEI right now.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 2:58 pm
  • Ironic, A, that your post appears right under one from a Yf questioning the Yankee FO.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 3:00 pm
  • A YF, really? Go back and read some of the old threads..
    We kill moves around here. Those made, and those passed on. As does every blog of this nature.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 3:02 pm
  • Carlos,
    The papers have covered this.
    For a couple of weeks, there have been intensive group meetings. There’s been a lot of debate, and Hank was eventually persuaded to make the Hughes/Cabrera offers the team made. Cash presumably either went along or at least didn’t throw a tantrum, but we don’t really know the details.
    In the last 48 hours, the pendulum has swung back, in a movement led by Cash and supported by Hank. They Stick Michael was also on the “keep the rookies” side of the argument.
    I don’t think it was inconsistent. I think it was Hank feeling his way, learning the ropes, listening to various voices and having a personality that doesn’t like extended negotiations, for whatever reason.

    A YF December 5, 2007, 3:03 pm
  • dumping the FO and questioning it are not the same thing.
    I’m wanting to know what the plan is, and if it will change minute to minute.

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 3:04 pm
  • Carlos, that’s the beauty of it. It’s only a philosophy when it works out like such, or a deal can’t be done.. Otherwise, he’s on the block.
    “We’re not trading our young talent” is directly equivalent to “no deal could be reached for our young talent”.
    I kid, YF’s.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 3:06 pm
  • Carlos,
    I’m not sure there’s anything contradicting or confusing here. Cashman says “I really really really would rather keep Hughes because x,y and z.”
    Hank and/or others argue that it really might be worth it. Cashman says “Ok. But we aren’t going to give them Hughes, Melky and x, y, or z.”
    Hank and/or others say ok, we’ll put a time-limit on it.
    Cashman and others say we shouldn’t have to pay this much, there’s no way the Red Sox are going to pay Santana the money he wants.

    walein December 5, 2007, 3:07 pm
  • The only “dumping” on the Yankee FO has been in terms of the Torre situation which I believe many people feel was handled poorly.

    walein December 5, 2007, 3:09 pm
  • Thanks, A.
    This bothers me because it means the power play is still going on. Hank is obviously the main-man, but why didn’t he listen to his GM back then. Why did his GM have to create a coalition party and restate the point? Its not so much about what decision was made, but that a decision was made. It seems here that Hank went ahead with the HUghes trade, even though there was internal dissention. I don’t like that.
    I still don’t like it, only because thats not my management strategy. My management strategy is always: lets decide what our goals here, what our needs are, and what we are willing to give up. Ok. Those decided? Everyone either agreed or willing to go along with it? Good. Lets go get. We’ll reconvene when we have new info.
    Here it seems that the “new info” was “They want Hughes and Kennedy.” And our response wasn’t “thats too much. Lets try just Hughes or just Kennedy.” It was “We don’t want anything!”
    But, I guess if we view all of this as a big bluff designed to drive up the price for the Sox, then we remain internally consistent.

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 3:10 pm
  • learning the ropes?
    Yesterday he was one of the smartest owners in baseball on here, and today he’s learning the ropes? I would have thought the ropes were old hat after years at dinners with Yankee GM’s and endless meetings with Dad and other owners.
    Just sayin…
    Their philosophy means squat. They’ll move whoever for the right deal, and if the Twins come back and say OK, Hughes is as good as gone. Period.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 3:11 pm
  • Paul SF,
    Questioning? Yes. I never said Yankee fans were Yes Men (your YES pun here).
    But I don’t see Carlos calling for Cash’s head, which is what Brad predicts. There’s a difference.
    For the first couple of months, the Yanks had a TERRIBLE record. It seems to me, Yankee fans stuck by their team (unlike your hiatus a month or two before the Sox won the Series).
    Then we didn’t look good in the playoffs. I didn’t hear Yankee fans here at YFSF saying the Yankees suck and need wholesale changes. Most fans seem to be saying we should keep what we have and pass on Santana, even if that means the Sox get him.
    On the other hand, I do seem to remember Brad losing a bet that Cash would be good before Theo, during the bizarro season in which Lucchino maneuvered Theo into walking out.
    Look guys, I’m not saying you can’t complain about the Yankees and their fans. I’m saying in this case it sounds more like the way Sox fans at YFSF acted than the way Yankee fans acted. Especially, Paul SF and Brad, the two calling the kettle black.

    A YF December 5, 2007, 3:11 pm
  • “Cashman and others say we shouldn’t have to pay this much, there’s no way the Red Sox are going to pay Santana the money he wants.”
    That’s a bit of subterfuge I hadn’t previously considered. Although I guess the Drew signing shows the Sox aren’t afraid of out-bidding themselves.

    FenSheaParkway December 5, 2007, 3:13 pm
  • Carlos, of course Hank is in control. The whole world knows that, or at least thinks it.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 3:13 pm
  • Brad,
    Have you ever seen me say Hank is one of the smartest owners? I don’t think there’s any question that Sox owners have been smarter than the Yankee owners recently.
    And of course Hank is learning. He’s brand new to this. We hope he’s learning.

    A YF December 5, 2007, 3:13 pm
  • Yankee fans stuck by their team (unlike your hiatus a month or two before the Sox won the Series).
    Don’t draw false dichotomies. I suspect you know better.
    Paul SF and Brad, the two calling the kettle black.
    This makes no sense.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 3:16 pm
  • I just had to add one more thing. Yankee fans I’ve talked to are pretty unanimous: Hank has good intentions, he’s certainly willing to spend money, and we wish he would shut up sometimes.
    Cash has always been quiet in public. I think that’s a better policy than Hank’s pronouncements and ultimatums.

    A YF December 5, 2007, 3:16 pm
  • Paul,
    I’m not trying to draw a false dichotomy. Going back in the archives is too tedious: Didn’t you and SF both say sometime in August that the Sox were going to blow it and that consequently you were going to take a week off?
    I don’t remember similar behaviour from Yankee fans here.
    What’s the false dichotomy?

    A YF December 5, 2007, 3:19 pm
  • “Here it seems that the “new info” was “They want Hughes and Kennedy.” And our response wasn’t “thats too much. Lets try just Hughes or just Kennedy.” It was “We don’t want anything!””

    Actually, the reality of this situation could be a lot more “human” and “business normal” than that. Take this scenario:
    Twins push hard for Hughes, playing the whole “Sox said they’d give us Ellsbury, etc…”, the Yankees, after intense internal discussions and arguments and soul-searching decide to offer up Hughes in a package that the Twins had intimated would be a slam dunk and then suddenly the Twins say “We think Elsbury is a better prospect than Hughes.”
    The Yankees roll their eyes and say “Fcuk You!”

    Anonymous December 5, 2007, 3:19 pm
  • They didn’t say that the Sox were going to blow it; they were both just worried that the Red Sox were not strong enough to go deep into the post season.

    Atheose December 5, 2007, 3:19 pm
  • A YF, are you kidding me?
    Go back and read the playoff game threads. or bettery yet, head over to LoHud and read those…
    Yankee fans not harping on the FO, indeed. What kind of bizzaro world is it when a Yankee fan tells me that the fans aren’t or don’t begrudge the front office? Christ man, have you ever read Bronx Banter?

    Brad December 5, 2007, 3:20 pm
  • A,
    I think as long as Hank and Cash are on the same page, the Hank the Loud and Cash the Quiet could work well.
    The tension before was always that getting to George overwhelmed anything Cash could do. (See Vlad versus Sheff.)
    But if Hank and Cash respect each other and are working towards a common purpose, then a mouthpiece and a behind-the-scenes guy can work beautifully. Even something as cliche as good-cop/bad-cop can be beneficial.
    If Hank and Cash are on the same page, with the same goal, but if there are camps again. If there is a Hank camp and Cash camp, then I’m going to be disappointed. I hated those Tampa guys and Bronx guy fights over the last few years.

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 3:21 pm
  • What’s the false dichotomy?
    That you must either be 100 percent with the team for nine months regardless, or you’re not a real fan sticking with your team.
    I did take a week off because I felt following the team was not affecting me in ways I thought were healthy or productive, and yes, that was because the team was losing in simply horrid ways at that time. To say that I didn’t “stick with” the team is simply untrue — unless you think following the Sox for 97.3 percent of the season is not good enough.
    I, on the other hand, do remember similar, if not worse, behavior from Yankee fans in May and June — writing off the team and drastically cutting back their own baseball habits. It was understandable, to me. You love your team, you live and die with them, but it’s suppsoed to be fun. And when it stops being fun, you add a little distance so you can still be a normal human being.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 3:24 pm
  • why would YF’s take a week off? To miss out on second place? They were on fire. Read the May archives, and see how “not harping on Brian Cashman or the Yankee front office” works out for you.
    It’s very, very pompous of you to assume that while SF’s worried and stressed over their team, while YF’s sat back very cool and calm and never had any problems with the way things were going.
    Oh well, I guess we were both wrong if that was the case beacause the Sox had very, very little reason to worry, while the Yankee fans should have.
    And no, you didn’t say it. It was an argument yesterday that Hank was one of the smartest owner already based on who he was.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 3:25 pm
  • Carlos,
    I think there are always going to be different camps in any organization, vying for whatever control and security they can. There’s alot of money and competition. I don’t know if Hank Steinbrenner could possibly develop anywhere near as divisive an infrastructure as his father did (could anybody?).

    walein December 5, 2007, 3:26 pm
  • “A YF, are you kidding me?
    Go back and read the playoff game threads. or bettery yet, head over to LoHud and read those…
    Yankee fans not harping on the FO, indeed. What kind of bizzaro world is it when a Yankee fan tells me that the fans aren’t or don’t begrudge the front office? Christ man, have you ever read Bronx Banter?”
    Are you really going to compare the fans on Lohud to the fans who post here? As far as I remember, I as well as other fought against the constant Sox fan impression that Cashman constructed the team, the team suffered injuries and therefore Cashman is responsible. Man, do I remember the frustration, because Cashman didn’t count on 4/5 of the starting rotation going down to hamstring injuries, he is the sole reason the Yankees struggled. It was the Sox fans like you, Brad, who were laughing hysterically at our attempts to defend Cashman, as if he should have known the Sox were going to bid $51 million dollars on Dice-K. But, in the end, reason won out and Cashman actually did a pretty good job.

    AndrewYF December 5, 2007, 3:28 pm
  • I don’t remember much harping on Cashman. Theo had the same thing happen the year before. I remember a lot of the arguments were over whether injuries were a reason, an excuse or something that could have been planned for.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 3:30 pm
  • You guys are conflating terms in your arguments. No YF or SF fan would say that we don’t get annoyed or sick to our colective stomachs at times with moves/lack thereof by our respective organizations–eiether on or off the field; but “dumping” on them is different than voicing frustrations. Any of those characters that “wrote the Yankees off” last year were probably the kind of fans (that both our teams develop) who decide their opinions based on the back-pages of local newspapers.

    walein December 5, 2007, 3:31 pm
  • Carlos,
    One reads that Hank and Cash are learning how to work together and that in the group discussions some options grow and shrink.
    And one wouldn’t expect two people to always agree or disagree, but it seems Hank listens to Cash pretty well.
    Put it this way, if I owned the Yankees, I wouldn’t always do what Cash says. John Henry brought Theo back over Lucchino’s wishes, apparently.
    Sure there are Yankee fan assholes out there, just the way there are Sox fan assholes at WEEI and SOSH. IMHO it’s better to keep the discussion about fans here at YFSF.

    A YF December 5, 2007, 3:31 pm
  • Of course, my memory could be cloudy. Steve over at WasWatching absolutely hates Cashman, and arguing against him is what I could be remembering.

    AndrewYF December 5, 2007, 3:31 pm
  • It’s always ridiculous to assert that X fanbase is better than Y because ‘no X fan I know’ engaged in some supposed bad fan behavior while ‘some Y fans I know’ did. Regardless of whether you think taking a week long break from watching baseball because your team is giving you angina makes you a bad fan, followers of all teams do it.
    And really, we’re all wusses when you think about it – we start howling when our respective teams have a stretch of sub-.500 ball. Meanwhile, Royals fans everywhere just roll their eyes…

    Jackie (SF) December 5, 2007, 3:35 pm
  • Let’s go Royals and Jose Guillen (and possibly Andruw Jones?)!!!

    walein December 5, 2007, 3:37 pm
  • Andrew, if Cashman isn’t ever held responsible for anything, who are we supposed to question or blame for the shortcomings? Of course we know it wasn’t his fault that he had to give Clemens that money, or that Giambi mans first base. He’s only the GM. How much power could he have?
    I’m not comparing the fans here to Lohud at all, but to think that Yankee fans (everywhere) were acceptable of what has happened the past four years, and that Cashman is free of fault and you’re all fine with it, and that …… is silly and arrogant to me.
    Of course I screamed and yelled at the Red Sox. I’m a fan. I was both happy and very, very disappointed in them at times last year. For example, getting beaten by Igawa pissed me of to no end. I cursed them long into the night that day.
    It’s what we do as fans, so to suggest that one fan base is above such ridicule of the owners and GM’s is off base. Paul and SF both covered the Sox as much as anyone.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 3:37 pm
  • And if we never criticized the FO or the players, then we’d be irredeemable homers. It’s just a stupid argument, every time it comes up.

    Jackie (SF) December 5, 2007, 3:39 pm
  • I’ve got to parrot Carlos here — I actually think Hank as “bombast provider” and Cashman as “deal maker” is a good dynamic. If they trust each other they can play off one another to make good deals. I think A-Rod is a classic example of this. Hank told him to fuck off initially, but when he came back they sat down and got a deal done.

    Adrian (YF) December 5, 2007, 3:42 pm
  • Speaking of FO critiques, did anyone see this from Sean McAdam?
    “Sometime between the end of these winter meetings and the start of spring training, the Red Sox would like to talk to Jason Varitek about a contract extension.
    Varitek’s four-year, $40 million deal – signed after the 2004 World Series – expires after the 2008 season and the Sox are unsure whether they have a suitable replacement in their pipeline.”
    Ugh, ugh, ugh. I love Varitek as much as the next person, but if he’s in the dugout in 2010 I hope it’s as a coach. His bat’s not going to get any better over the next three years…

    Jackie (SF) December 5, 2007, 3:47 pm
  • Heh, I think i am jumping the gun and expecting organizational discipline to be fully formed.
    Another question: Why don’t we ever compare Theo & Cash? Not their “value”, but just their two career paths. I find their path to be incredibly unusual.
    Born in Kentucky. His family bred horses. He attended Lexington Catholic High School before moving to the Washington, D.C., metropolitan area. He graduated from Georgetown Preparatory School in 1985 and The Catholic University of America in 1989.
    He started with the Yankees organization as an intern, rising in the organization until becoming GM in 1998 at the age of 30. Three Championships and 5 pennants. Notable trades: Wells for Clemens, Soriano for Rodrigue. Signings: Giambi, Matsui, Contreras and Damon. Credited for restocking the farm system. (no mention of Sheff, since I guess thats considered a Boss trade.)
    Born in Brookline (wow, his grandfather wrote Casablanca and his brother-in-law wrote Capote). Epstein began interning with the Baltimore Orioles in 1992. Meanwhile, Epstein attended Yale University where he lived at Jonathan Edwards College and served as sports editor of the Yale Daily News, and graduated in 1995 with a degree in American Studies. Eventually he took a job in the PR department of the San Diego Padres; soon Epstein would become the team’s Director of Baseball Operations. While working for the Padres, he studied full-time at the University of San Diego School of Law, where he earned a Juris Doctor degree and passed the California bar exam in 1999. Started working for Lucchino in 2002, and became GM at the end of that year. Brought sabermetrics to the Red Sox. Notable transactions: Schilling, Foulke, Garciaparra-for-Mient and Cabrera. Became GM at the age of 28.

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 3:51 pm
  • Season over. Sorry I have to say that, but it’s true – nothing’s changed since last week. Accuse me of bailing out, but it’s just reality setting in – the team is strong but not top tier. The #1 and #2 starters both can’t get wins on the way into the biggest series of the year with the Yankees, the bullpen continues to suck ass, and Terry Francona, whether excusably or not, shows no ability to manage the pitching with any degree of prescience or proactivity. The Sox just don’t have the squad this year.
    What a massive fucking letdown.
    Posted by: SF | Tuesday, August 15, 2006 at 10:06 PM
    JFC. The Sox SUCK right now. Maybe they just suck in general.
    Posted by: SF | Saturday, April 29, 2006 at 07:32 PM
    Almost everyone in the pen is sucking at the same time. They don’t all suck, of course, but the concurrence of their suckitude is painful.
    Posted by: SF | Sunday, August 06, 2006 at 04:11 PM
    Bottom line: the Sox SUCK right now, and have sucked going on 2 weeks. Seriously, they could be 5 games out right now if it weren’t for Papi’s and Loretta’s miracles. Or Fausto Carmona.
    Posted by: SF | Sunday, August 06, 2006 at 04:17 PM
    To quote Homer: They’re the suckiest bunch of sucks who ever sucked.
    Posted by: I’m Bill McNeal | Sunday, August 06, 2006 at 04:19 PM
    Posted by: SF | Sunday, August 06, 2006 at 04:38 PM
    Brian, it’s called being the suckiest suckwad who ever sucked.
    Posted by: I’m Bill McNeal | Sunday, August 06, 2006 at 04:38 PM
    OK, we suck. I am outta here – going to enjoy the outdoors instead of sitting here stewing and getting more and more angry. It’s gotta be more fun out there than in here.
    Go Sox. (Though with Tavarez in I have an idea which direction they are going, sadly)
    Posted by: SF | Sunday, August 06, 2006 at 04:49 PM
    Especially when you know that if there are any “absolute truth” in our universe it is that the Red Sox indeed suck.
    Posted by: walein | Tuesday, March 13, 2007 at 01:40 PM
    Varitek: still sucking at the plate.
    Posted by: SF | Thursday, June 08, 2006 at 08:12 PM
    God damn IT we SUCK
    Posted by: Brian | Tuesday, August 15, 2006 at 09:05 PM
    None of us should be surprised by A) the Sox crapping the bed again or B) the Yankees possibly beating the Orioles. Let’s not get all crazy or anything – these are very predictable results.
    This weekend is really going to suck, I fear.
    Posted by: SF | Tuesday, August 15, 2006 at 09:18 PM

    A YF December 5, 2007, 3:52 pm
  • My recollection of May ’07 was that it was like black magic. When the pitchers pitched, the hitters didn’t hit. When the hitters hit, the pitchers couldn’t pitch. And on the few occasions when things seemed to be going well, someone important got injured.
    Maybe some people blamed the FO for such an ex post facto “obviously” terrible rotation, but my view was that there was just some very bad juju in the air. For me, that’s why the midges were such a blow. It was like we couldn’t outrun the past.

    Adrian (YF) December 5, 2007, 3:53 pm
  • AYF has too much free time…

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 3:54 pm
  • It’s funny to me that YF’s give Cash the credit for the Pennants and WS wins, but refuse the blame for all the bad stuff is passed onto other areas like “camps in Tampa” and such.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 3:55 pm
  • Crap, if the Twins would just hurry up and trade Santana, then I could avert my eyes….

    rootbeerfloat December 5, 2007, 3:55 pm
  • A YF, are you going to do the other side? And what exactly is you point or purpose? We’re not real fans? We get down on our team? Give me a freaking break and head back over to Lohud.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 3:57 pm
  • An update! (via BP):

    3:30 p.m. ET: A Minnesota official said Wednesday that he is “99 percent sure” that left-hander Johan Santana will still be a Twin when the meetings end Thursday. The Twins still figure to deal Santana sometime before spring training, though it now seems no longer a complete lock that he will be traded to the Red Sox or the Yankees.

    So much for that deal being all but done…

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 3:57 pm
  • Ha!
    Here is something to lighten the mood:
    C.C. Sabathia hits free agency at the end of 2008. So is Brad Penny. Peavy was until the Padres locked him up.
    Gammons writes more about it: It doesn’t matter how much luxury tax the Yankees pay or how much Steinbrenner money goes to Kansas City, Minnesota or Tampa Bay. Hank Steinbrenner is going to use his AmEx to win. He gets a year’s grace from some of the taxation because of the new stadium that opens in 2009, but if you’re out there in a small market, how scary is this winter, with the realization that the Yankees and Mets are both about to open new revenue-cow ballparks?”
    Heh, we get a no-tax year in 2009? Oh wow. Front-loaded contracts baby!

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 3:58 pm
  • There’s a difference between saying your team is sucking (which, at the time, was a mere fact!) and completely bailing on your team.

    Atheose December 5, 2007, 3:58 pm
  • You’re trying to start a fight. Period.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 3:59 pm
  • 2009 is a no-tax year for the Yankees? CRAP.

    Atheose December 5, 2007, 4:00 pm
  • Honestly, A, what point does that prove? That SF cares too much? That he and other Sox fans are passionate about their team? Should I go and pull a bunch of Yf comments in the same vein so we can finally agree that we all have said negative things about our teams?
    I don’t even remember what your point was anymore, so much have you derailed the conversation. Like Jackie said, if SF had made a bunch of comments telling everyone to hang tough, and that he was sure the Sox would win the World Series, he would have been accused of being a blind homer over and over again.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 4:01 pm
  • Sweeeeeeet!

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 4:01 pm
  • dis

    Brad December 5, 2007, 4:02 pm
  • I don’t understand what isn’t accurate from those quotes A YF posted. They are from 2006. They didn’t have the squad that year. They didn’t win it all. They did suck for those stretches of time…

    Kluv December 5, 2007, 4:02 pm
  • Sorry for the double-negative. And for engaging…

    Kluv (SF) December 5, 2007, 4:04 pm
  • Wow, he did go back to 2006 — the year the Red Sox in totality did, actually, suck. So that makes even LESS sense, since SF and I were both there all through that terrible time.
    Man. For a second there, I thought he/she/it wasn’t a troll. Oops.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 4:04 pm
  • You asked (and this is the team that easily won the World Series):
    Mea Culpa
    OK, so I was wrong (a month, second place, and all of that). And I couldn’t be happier about it.
    Now go get one of three, fellas, that’s it.
    Posted by SF at 06:23 AM in General Red Sox | Permalink | Comments (19)
    An Experiment
    Yesterday, amazed and frustrated beyond words by the meltdown in Baltimore, I ignored the Red Sox for the first time this season. They won.
    Based on this hardened principle, and based on the wrath I feel churning in my stomach after this afternoon’s loss, I am going to ignore this maddening ballclub for a full week. I won’t post here, comment on here, check scores or watch or read anything about baseball for seven days. I have other hobbies; I enjoy politics, and there seems to be a presidential race on that I’ve been ignoring. I have been needing to work my way through the perpetually growing list of books I want to read. I’ve always wanted to sear out my eyes with a red-hot poker. All these things would be better than following six or seven games of Red Sox baseball. In any case, I imagine I’ll be more productive at work, as well.
    I fully expect that when I return, the Red Sox will be battling the Indians and Tigers for who can give away the wild card to the Mariners (the Mariners!) the fastest. I have no desire to watch that train wreck, and this team cannot hold me hostage any longer. Screw them. Well, for a week, anyway.
    See you later.
    Posted by Paul SF at 06:01 PM in Sox Gamers/Postmortems | Permalink | Comments (74)
    Wait, so what I’ve been saying all along, based on watching almost every single game of the year, is finally taking hold of other Sox fans? You mean I wasn’t just a doomsayer, a panic artist? You mean that I might actually have been observant?
    This team, as I have been saying for WEEKS, even when they had a ten game lead, is troubled, big time. It’s finally somehwat redeeming that someone else might be seeing what I saw long ago.
    I assume many of our posters here will jump on this, calling me overly pessimistic, but I do recall one of our new authors here a couple of months ago saying the Yankees were completely dead, that only firing Joe Torre might do anything, that the team was a nightmare. I am doing nothing of the sort with the Sox — this skid is on the players and not management (though management isn’t blameless). Somehow I don’t expect I will escape being criticized for my attitude, however well-justified it’s panning out to have been.
    Posted by: SF | Sunday, August 12, 2007 at 07:29 PM
    Oh, and by the way: I’m with Paul. See you guys in a week.
    Posted by: SF | Sunday, August 12, 2007 at 07:29 PM

    A YF December 5, 2007, 4:05 pm
  • Yet another iteration of Pete/BRaw/W***sta, eh?

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 4:05 pm
  • *iteration=incarnation. meh.

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 4:07 pm
  • A-YF, please stop. Please. Comparisons of general YF and SF behavior are not interesting at all and can’t help but lead to nasty back and forth.
    I think we can all agree that YFs are just better at everything. We make better artists, businessmen, astronauts, and lovers. But SFs are acceptable members of the human race too.

    IronHorse (yf) December 5, 2007, 4:08 pm
  • I went back to June to try and find some YF comments, but it was hard; most of the Yanks gamer threads had fewer than 20 comments. Bailing on your team, indeed. :P
    (But definite kudos to those of you who did stick around and post through that time.)

    Jackie (SF) December 5, 2007, 4:08 pm
  • A YF, please explain why the names tied to your IP include “john” and old troll B0ston R@w.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 4:10 pm
  • YM – iteration actually seems like a good word too.

    rootbeerfloat December 5, 2007, 4:10 pm
  • Oh wait, here’s a good one:
    Thursday, June 28, 2007
    Pitchers and Catchers: Feb. 15, 2008
    Dear fellow Yanks fans,
    It is over.
    All the best,
    Posted by Nick-YF”

    Jackie (SF) December 5, 2007, 4:10 pm
  • yeah, I just realized the same exact thing…

    Brad December 5, 2007, 4:13 pm
  • In attempt to get back onto the subject of baseball, Joe Girardi’s confidence in Kyle Farnsworth – saying he caught him in Chicago, has seen him at his best, and is confident he can get back to that level – is one of his first big tests as manager, especially if, as it looks right now, Farnsworth becomes NY’s 8th inning set up guy. Girardi is possibly pumping Farnsworth up and giving him just the confidence he needs to be strong in the bullpen. But based on past performance, I don’t know a YF who would be happy with anything but the shortest of possible hooks for Kyle in ’08. I for one hope that the number 1 priority after the likely impossible acquisition of a true ace is the acquisition of a reliable bullpen arm or two.

    IronHorse (yf) December 5, 2007, 4:16 pm
  • hahahahahahahaha.
    I freaking love this whole traceable IP thing. He couldn’t have been more wrong with the things he said during the season, so now, he’s come to point out the times we got down on our team. For a minute, it was as if a new guy showed up with interesting things to say, then, well, he just couldn’t help himself.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 4:17 pm
  • lol

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 4:20 pm
  • It would be nice for YF’s if Joe can get him back on track, but really, wouldn’t he have already done this last year. He was at the park nearly everyday, and loves the team. Don’t you think he would have spoken up, or feared stepping on anyone’s toes?

    Brad December 5, 2007, 4:21 pm
  • The IP’s been banned, for whatever that’s worth (and it’s not usually worth much).

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 4:21 pm
  • Stark:
    “The Red Sox and Twins continue to have “a lot of dialogue” about Johan Santana, according to one source with knowledge of their discussions. But there is no indication they’ve been able to rebuild any momentum toward a deal. The Red Sox want to make this deal on their terms, meaning they’re still only willing to offer either Jon Lester or Jacoby Ellsbury but not both. The Twins think they need a bigger return if they’re trading Santana. So even though their ability to compete in the AL Central took a hit with the Tigers’ deal for Miguel Cabrera and Dontrelle Willis, it doesn’t appear that has heightened the Twins’ sense of urgency to complete a deal.”

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 4:26 pm
  • I say unban the IP and let’s try to guess the alias whenever there’s big news afoot. We could make a game out of it! Preferably, a drinking game.

    FenSheaParkway December 5, 2007, 4:27 pm
  • I’m in…

    Brad December 5, 2007, 4:32 pm
  • I don’t see Farnsworth in the 8th. I watched him here in the cubs, and though any player can make “the jump” his track history doesn’t just show “inconsistency”, it shows “i like to throw teams out of windows.”
    Lets say no Santana.
    Pettitte, Wang, Camberlain, Hughes and Mussina. Kennedy is the long relief? The spot start? Is that the plan?
    I believe in Ramirez as a set-up man. If you keep working, don’t give him any long layoffs where he loses his touch, his breaking ball is devastating. After that and Mo, we got nothing? What are we expecting from Veras? What are we expecting from Bruney or Britton expect them quitting and joining the WWF as the B & B Brothers? I mean, what else do you do with relievers listed at 6’3 245 and 6’3 275?
    2009 = No Tax Year for the NY Yankees. Thats like getting a 40% raise.

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 4:33 pm
  • Um, Camberlain = Chamberlain in my burned out mind.
    Is the nickname “The Hutt” insulting to Joba?

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 4:34 pm
  • Brad,
    I don’t think Girardi’s presence at the stadium as a YES announcer is anything near comparable to his being in the manager position when it comes to the interaction and the impact he would have – and would try to exert – on player performance.
    Having said that, please don’t misconstrue this with a strong vote of confidence from me that he or any other manager can get much more out of Fanrsworth then we have seen in recent years. And if that is the case, I want him as our 8th inning-bridge about as badly as I want a root canal.
    But I do recall when Girardi was interviewing for the position that his confidence that he could get more out of Farnsworth was one of his selling points……we’ll see.

    IronHorse (yf) December 5, 2007, 4:35 pm
  • Ahhh, the wisdom of Steve Phillips…
    “Red Sox and Yankees are trying to do what’s best for their teams.”
    Give this man a GM position!

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 4:37 pm
  • It sounds like this deal has officially jumped. Even if it seems like packing 2008 in and getting more than draft picks for Johan might be the most beneficial thing for the Twins to do, I bet it’s hard for them to do that now, after the Tigers’ trade. I think they’re going to make a go of it, if at least not to make their ticket sales implode next year.

    FenSheaParkway December 5, 2007, 4:37 pm
  • “Is the nickname “The Hutt” insulting to Joba?”
    Maybe, if he’s more of an “Empire Strikes Back” guy.

    FenSheaParkway December 5, 2007, 4:38 pm
  • Geez, I don’t think the guy was even born until ‘Return of the Jedi.’
    Not that he can’t be a fan, but its been two days since I’ve felt old, and well, one needs the daily reminders of one’s encroaching death.
    How else can I justify spending the last 3 days focused entirely on a deal that never got made?

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 4:41 pm
  • I just don’t understand the Twins here, if they are deciding to go into 2008 with Santana. I know they don’t want to lose Santana for nothing, but the offers don’t get better from here.
    But if they’re thinking the Angels and Dodgers might just get desperate enough with Cabrera off the market, that’s probably worth the wait.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 4:42 pm
  • The Red Sox sucked in 2006. The comments that you pasted show Sox Fans acknowledging the suckitude.
    Likewise, the Yankees sucked in April and May. It’s simply a fact. Pointing it out does not = bailing on your team. After all, SF was still here every night pointing out the suckitude! Same for July/August of this year. He complained about the Red Sox when they were sucking, but he was still here every night.

    Atheose December 5, 2007, 4:46 pm
  • Geez, I don’t think the guy was even born until ‘Return of the Jedi.’
    Thanks, dude. I feel ancient now. Sheesh.

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 4:47 pm
  • Holy crap I posted that like 30 minutes ago!

    Atheose December 5, 2007, 4:47 pm
  • Paul,
    I’ve seen reports that say that the Twins are aiming to trade him before spring training. I think they have not committed, internally, to keep him, but negotiation positions dictate that they imply that they will keep him. That way, their position remains strong and they can get max value.
    The should be careful. Remember what happened with Garnett, the other Minnesota trade bait. They kept waiting for the “perfect” offer that their eventual offer was no where near as good as before.
    Surprised no one mentioned the corrolary between Garnet-to-Celtics for young great + accessories and Santana-to-Red Sox for young great + accessories.

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 4:49 pm
  • Minnesota has initiated talks for a three-way blockbuster with the Twins and A’s. Here’s how it would go down:
    Mets send Jose Reyes, Kevin Mulvey, and Hector Pellot to A’s
    A’s send Bobby Crosby and Dan Johnson to Mets
    A’s send Dan Haren to Twins
    Twins send Johan Santana to Mets
    Mets get Johan Santana, Bobby Crosby and Dan Johnson
    A’s get Jose Reyes and Kevin Mulvey
    Twins get Dan Haren and Hector Pellot

    Anonymous December 5, 2007, 4:49 pm
  • I feel like in April and May, I was the only YF here.. =P
    And this year, my loyality pays off! Well, in that they actually made it to the playoff to lose to the Indians..

    Lar December 5, 2007, 4:49 pm
  • Speaking of “The Hutt”:
    Did anyone else read the ESPN THe Magazine feature on him. He comes across like my little brother. I keep expecting someone to ruffle his hair and take away his iPod.
    I mean, exclamation points! Thats awesome! It is def interesting!
    (I do love the kid.)

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 4:51 pm
  • Brad & Paul,
    I’ll explain. I come here 3 or 4 times a week, and don’t post more because I sometimes get turned off by posts saying “Yankee are idiots who do X,” like today’s post saying we’re all going to be complaining about Cash soon, clearly implying that only Yankee fans complain about their GM that way, and Sox fans would never act like that.
    WHY? The record on this site clearly shows that Sox fans complain at least as much as Yankee fans.
    Somebody (was it you Paul?) asked me to go to the archives and prove it. Thanks to Google, I easily did that AND NOTHING MORE, and Paul banned me for straight quotes.
    IMHO, this is the Achilles heel of this otherwise excellent site.
    Last but not least, if I’m supposed to understand BOston R@w, you’re too smart for me.

    Anonymous December 5, 2007, 4:51 pm
  • Well…thats blockbuster.
    Jose Reyes is such a star with the Mets. I thought he was already such a big part of their nucleus that they’d never trade him.
    I mean, he does make that offense go. The few times I watched the Mets, it seemed obvious that his ability to get singles, steal bases, and put pressure on the offense really helped the guys behind him.

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 4:53 pm
  • Anon: source on the menage-a-trois?

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 4:53 pm
  • oh well.
    I’m penciling him in for opening day for the Yankees at this point. Less Hughes and Melky of course, that’s going to be tough to swallow for me. I will however get a chuckle out of it when they do trade Hughes away after all this posturing about everything. But, they should. It’s the right move, just like it’s the right move to offer Ellsbury without hesitation.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 4:55 pm
  • You were banned, anon, because you have shifted screen names among multiple people for more than a year, including a known troll who has been banned on this site. Continued use of anonymous posting — which I see you have done for several weeks here — also is not allowed.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 4:56 pm
  • yeah, okay guy.
    I guess the IP lies.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 4:56 pm
  • I guess my posts/stories I wrote about Reyes for Santana weren’t that crazy at all Huh fellas? See and you all insisted I was off base…

    John - YF December 5, 2007, 4:58 pm
  • Can we get an attribution for the rumor? I don’t see it on any of the main blogs…

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 5:00 pm
  • Paul SF December 5, 2007, 5:01 pm
    Santana/Reyes/Haren Blockbuster In The Works?
    Just got an incredible rumor from a trusted New York sportswriter. Stay with me, because this one’s crazy. But rest assured that if the source wasn’t good, I wouldn’t post it.
    Minnesota has initiated talks for a three-way blockbuster with the Twins and A’s. Here’s how it would go down:
    Mets send Jose Reyes, Kevin Mulvey, and Hector Pellot to A’s
    A’s send Bobby Crosby and Dan Johnson to Mets
    A’s send Dan Haren to Twins
    Twins send Johan Santana to Mets
    Mets get Johan Santana, Bobby Crosby and Dan Johnson
    A’s get Jose Reyes and Kevin Mulvey
    Twins get Dan Haren and Hector Pellot
    The source says Haren is exactly the type of player the Twins want for Santana, a cheap frontline starter. It’s known the Mets would hate to deal Reyes but they would get some value beyond Santana. Billy Beane is happy because he gets Reyes for one more year than he had Haren plus longtime favorite Mulvey. And, he’s out of Crosby’s contract.

    John - YF December 5, 2007, 5:01 pm
  • Paul you are like a CAT!

    John - YF December 5, 2007, 5:02 pm
  • WHOA WHOA WHOA I didnt realize my info was gone.
    My info was there yesterday so dont tell me I was posting annon for weeks.
    And I dont use numerous names…. I usually use TJ but sometimes I actually log into my typepad thing which has my name something like TJ Sox Fan

    TJ December 5, 2007, 5:03 pm
  • OHH and I guess there was another anon you were talking too….lol

    TJ December 5, 2007, 5:04 pm
  • This makes no sense. Why wouldn’t Twins just take Reyes for Santana and cut the A’s out of it entirely? Surely the Mets aren’t dying to acquire Bobby Crosby and his medical bills?

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 5:04 pm
  • Wow, Reyes had it made in NYC in 2007. He was a flat-out star. Value-wise, I know a few folks had qualms with his game, but in terms of personality, q rating and other factors, he was a central part of the Mets financial future.
    I guess it goes to show: Its Johan Freaking Santana!

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 5:04 pm
  • Maybe because Reyes will be costly soon? What is Reyes’ contract? I know he made $2.8 million last year, but do we know when he’s up for free agency? Not that it makes a difference. If he was a player on the cusp of inking a big deal, neither the Twins nor the A’s would touch him.

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 5:06 pm
  • Yeah, the other anon, TJ. You’re cool. We all go anon accidentally from time to time.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 5:07 pm
  • Reyes just signed an extension last(?) year? I don’t think he hits free agency until 2011 or so.

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 5:07 pm
  • I’m having trouble believing that the Twins would part with Santana for Haren and Pellot (though I know next to nothing about Pellot, maybe he’s really awesome) if they were turning down the packages that the Yanks and Sox were offering. I guess Haren is significantly more proven than Hughes or Lester, but they’re also not getting a gaggle of hot young prospects to go with the replacement starter.

    Jackie (SF) December 5, 2007, 5:08 pm
  • I thought both Reyes and Wright signed a new deal this year for bigger money? Maybe it was just Wright, and if that’s the case, I would ask for Wright instead of Reyes.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 5:10 pm
  • Man. I take everything I said about the Twins back. Haren makes much more sense for them if they’re going to just sign Eckstein. They still have Nathan to deal, so they could get something nice back for him as well.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 5:11 pm
  • Yep, here it is:
    Reyes is signed through 2010.

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 5:12 pm
  • I’m rooting for this deal. Santana to the NL = A win for the Red Sox.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 5:13 pm
  • Yeah, now the twins turn right around a offer Haren to the Sox for same deal! ha.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 5:14 pm
  • Also it removes Haren from the picture, thus essentially ensuring that the Yankees don’t add that elusive No. 1 starter.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 5:14 pm
  • Wow – Reyes is exactly the kind of player the A’s fans love to love. He’d be mighty welcome out here on the left coast.

    Anonymous December 5, 2007, 5:15 pm
  • Is it even conceivable that such a complicated deal with such big names would get done? I’m feeling uber-skeptical.

    IronHorse (yf) December 5, 2007, 5:15 pm
  • Heh, if the Twins got prospects out of this, then it migh be awesome! Imagine this: Twins get in a three-way trade, get Haren + prospects. Trade Haren to Sox/Yanks for more prospects.
    The Twins could really pull of a coup, saying in essence we got the benefit of trading the two biggest pitchers in this scenario.
    The thinking being that from the Twins standpoint of building cheaply towards the future Haren is about equal to Lester/Hughes. It’d definitely would be the quantity deal of the century.

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 5:19 pm
  • IH,
    i’m waiting for confirmation for anywhere else that any one is talking about this. None yet.

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 5:20 pm
  • yeah, I kind of agree, IH. Plus, wouldn’t the Twins turn right around and try to spin Haren for the same group of younger and cheaper players?

    Brad December 5, 2007, 5:20 pm
  • Well, I would have never guessed the Tigers of all teams could have pulled off a trade for both Cabrera AND Willis. I would have poo-pooed such a suggestion about ANY team.
    So I guess everything’s possible.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 5:22 pm
  • I’m on board with that, Carlos. In fact, I think that’s absolutely going to happen.
    If this doesn’t work out, and Santana isn’t as advertised, which won’t happen at all, (provided it’s true) Omar will be crucified!
    I’m saying right now that Santana wins 24 a year in the NL! ha.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 5:23 pm
  • Maybe THAT’s what’s holding all this up (and how far out in left field are we anyway?) — The Sox and Twins have actually been negotiating for Haren, and now are waiting on the completion of the Twins-Mets-A’s trade. That would be WILD.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 5:24 pm
  • Paul,
    You would have ‘poo-poo’d’ as not possible, or the wrong move for the Tigers?
    I think I agree with you. I can’t say that the Tigers took the Marlins out behind the woodshed cause you can’t rape the willing, but I was flabbergasted that the Marlins were so committed to being….well…non-competitive.

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 5:25 pm
  • You would have ‘poo-poo’d’ as not possible, or the wrong move for the Tigers?
    Not possible, Carlos. The Marlins did get what amounts to five prospects, including two of the best in baseball, including a guy I think will outperform Willis starting this year.
    But you figure splitting the players could likely net you EIGHT prospects (four in each deal) at least.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 5:27 pm
  • I think it’s a great deal for the Tigers. It got them what they really needed, like a reliable backup for Justin Verlander in the rotation, and some solid bullpen pieces.
    Oh wait. Just more offense.

    QuoSF December 5, 2007, 5:29 pm
  • We are SO getting carried away. Does anyone have an attribution that isn’t Is anyone else picking up on this?

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 5:30 pm
  • Like I said before, the Tigers will be the 2008 version of the 2007 Cubs. Lots of flash, no fire, and ultimately a disappointment.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 5:31 pm
  • No, Carlos, because the source is a reporter whom the MLBTR guy knows. So it’s a “scoop,” of sorts.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 5:31 pm
  • I’m not sure it really amounts to five prospects, Paul. The only one of the pitchers who has had any real success was very old (24) for only having a small amount of experience at the AA-level.
    Though agreed on Miller. He should be better than Willis next year and for many to come. And Cameron Maybin has both the performance and the pedigree to suggest he’ll be a force as well, at least as much as anyone could claim such a thing.

    QuoSF December 5, 2007, 5:31 pm
  • Quo,
    Did you see my proposed lineup for the Tigers? They are all right handers! It was L,R,R,R,R,S,R,R,L.
    They’d never see a Left-Hander all year.

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 5:32 pm
  • ha
    nobody else understands it. We’re breating this stuff this week. We’re getting carried away.
    I am playing along though, Paul.
    Imagine they make this deal tonight, and then tomorrow announce that they’re trading Haren to the Red Sox for the same package of prospects, thus landing more players than they originally would have. ha.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 5:32 pm
  • Well, I say “prospects” when I mean “minor-leaguers,” as I don’t really know any of them other than Maybin and Miller.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 5:33 pm
  • There’s no getting too carried away, Carlos. It’s the hot stove.

    QuoSF December 5, 2007, 5:33 pm
  • Why is it called the hot stove anyway?

    Carlos (YF) December 5, 2007, 5:35 pm
  • Also it removes Haren from the picture, thus essentially ensuring that the Yankees don’t add that elusive No. 1 starter.
    Haren is most certainly not a number one starter. And if the Yankees acquired him, they would end up far worse for the long-term than if they stood pat, and probably even worse for 2008.
    Haren is a guy who is valuable in a trade for cost-controlled teams who want to contend, not the Red Sox or the Yankees, considering the hefty weight of prospects they would have to give up.

    AndrewYF December 5, 2007, 5:37 pm
  • Paul, to be fair, I’ve only looked at their MiL stats. None of them are particularly exciting when, especially, looking at the age of the best one. He definitely hasn’t been challenged yet.
    And Carlos: I did, though I still think it’d be senseless for them to not bat Pudge 9th. Say:
    Granderson (L), Polanco (R), Cabrera (R), Maggs (R), Sheffield (R), Guillen (S), Renteria (R), Jones (L), .291 OBP (R)
    Whatever else happpens, though, I’m sure I’ll be back up there this season to catch a series or two. Comerica’s a great one to watch a game, IMO.

    QuoSF December 5, 2007, 5:37 pm
  • AYF, go back to when the Yankees were 12-15 games back, and you’ll find plenty of evidence of some YFs bailing out.

    Hudson December 5, 2007, 5:39 pm
  • Yes. I love MLBTradeRumors, but I love it for its let’s-throw-everything-out-there-and-sort-through-the- rubble craziness. How long has it been since a trade like this was even executed? The Ozzie Smith trade?
    And again, I know Johan is a prize. But cost-controlled years of Reyes, and a prospect, for the privilege of signing Johan to a mega-deal after this year? This Mets fan is not thrilled about that.

    FenSheaParkway December 5, 2007, 5:41 pm
  • AndrewYF, agreed, assuming for you the no.1 and “ace” titles are interchangable.
    And in general, isn’t he being overvalued a bit? He’s very good, maybe not great or dominant, and cost-controlled. There’s a lot of value in that, but is it franchise-changing value? Obviously these are kind of subjective terms.
    Maybe my opinion on that is being colored by the whole Billy Beane: Joe Blanton = Brad Penny thing that I saw a coupla days ago.

    QuoSF December 5, 2007, 5:42 pm
  • Yeah, I think it’s BS. Something of this magnitude would’ve made it onto other sites besides MLBTR by now…
    As for Twins spinning off Haren, why wouldn’t they just keep him for now? If they still want to compete in ’08, Haren is useful, no? Relatively cheap, under control for a few more years…

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 5:46 pm
  • I’d take Haren in a minute. He’s every bit as good as Mussina, Schilling, Wakefield, Pettitte, and several others at this point. For much less money. I think last year was a career year, as does Billy Beane, but he’s a very viable option for either of our teams at this point. No, you don’t give up a number one, but you may consider giving up a number two, and a few lower levels in that deal.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 5:46 pm
  • Why is it called the hot stove anyway?
    Carlos, I don’t think anyone really knows for sure where Hot Stove League came from, but the obvious probability is as a tongue-in-cheek way of referencing how people discussed baseball moves in the days when the term came about — around the hot stove in a general store or other meeting place.
    Just my guess, but I think it’s a good one. I know I’ve heard somewhere that people aren’t sure when or how the phrase originated specifically.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 5:46 pm
  • I can agree with that as well, YM. At this point, nothing will surprise me. Oh, I meant to say that we’re breaTHing this stuff this week, and not breating…
    I’m sure you got it…ha.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 5:47 pm
  • I would take Haren in a SECOND. He is a fantastic young pitcher with great stuff. He may not be a #1 or an Ace LT, but he will be very very close. #1A?

    John - YF December 5, 2007, 5:49 pm
  • “Hot Stove League” sounds like the invention of a newspaper sportswriter back when “writer” was an important component of the job.

    FenSheaParkway December 5, 2007, 5:50 pm
  • ha. John you’d take anyone at this point! hahahah.
    Game one starter….Wang! Deal with it! ha.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 5:51 pm
  • Hot Stove = baseball related stuff to keep us warm in the long cold winter months devoid of actual baseball, maybe?

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 5:51 pm
  • wow! I’m in a class on a break and I’m greeted with that crazy rumor. The weird thing is that it kind of makes sense, kind of doesn’t. I’d be weary if I were a Mets fan if it were true.
    it’s probably not true.

    Nick-YF December 5, 2007, 5:52 pm
  • Game 1 starter: Hughes or Joba.
    Hey Beckett was a #1 starter in the WS in 2004.

    Nick-YF December 5, 2007, 5:53 pm
  • Game 1 starter: Hughes or Joba
    Better hope so! ha.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 5:55 pm
  • Faith can be rewarded. I thought a Sox fan would understand that concept well!

    Nick-YF December 5, 2007, 5:57 pm
  • toooshhhaaayy.:)
    Beckett is overrated anyhow, Nick.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 5:58 pm
  • Game 1 starter: Kei Igawa.

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 5:58 pm
  • Game 1 starter: Johan Santana

    Devine December 5, 2007, 6:00 pm
  • YM – Not Pavano?

    QuoSF December 5, 2007, 6:00 pm
  • Kei Igawa.
    Wang or Kei, take your pick…
    ha. I kid.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 6:01 pm
  • This joke has a lot of mileage. I like it like I like the “fist pump” joke.
    Game 1 starter: Kyle Farnsworth
    Oh man, I take it back, I just made myself kind of sad there.

    Devine December 5, 2007, 6:02 pm
  • Hey, I heard Pavano is working hard, throwing off flat ground, and is looking forward to helping his team win another world series. He should be able to contribute at least ten or twelve wins.:)
    Wait, that was last year!
    Okay, guys. I’m out, and have a nice night. I’m sure we’ll all be back with nothing else to talk about, all day, tomorrow.

    Brad December 5, 2007, 6:03 pm
  • Ha.
    Game one starter…
    Wait for it…
    Ted Lilly!!!

    Brad December 5, 2007, 6:04 pm
  • A Cleveland reporter says “reportedly” the Yankees and Red Sox have both withdrawn from negotiations.
    But how can it be “reportedly” when no one else is reporting it??

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 6:06 pm
  • Game 1 starter: Jeff Francis

    Devine December 5, 2007, 6:09 pm
  • Well, the crazy 3-way trade rumor is no longer on MLBTR, so much for that.
    There is, however, a note that the Mets are apparently in it. So who knows.

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 6:15 pm
  • Game 1 starter: Nick Punto

    IronHorse (yf) December 5, 2007, 6:16 pm
  • is no news still good news?

    sam-YF December 5, 2007, 6:16 pm
  • Game 1 starter: David Eckstein!!!
    Yeah, this could go on for while…

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 6:18 pm
  • “BP’s John Perrotto talked to a Twins official, and it definitely looks like the Meetings will end without a Johan deal.”
    Looks like everyone can go eat some dinner.

    John - YF December 5, 2007, 6:22 pm
  • IH and YM, that’s awesome! I dunno if anyone can top David Eckstein, though . But I definitely think people should try.
    Game 1 starter: Jeter’s calm eyes

    Devine December 5, 2007, 6:24 pm
  • Game 1 starter: Chuck Knoblauch

    sam-YF December 5, 2007, 6:27 pm
  • “Hot Stove League” does indeed refer to the colder off-season when a hot stove was needed to keep warm… But the surprising thing to me? It’s been in use since the early 1900’s! Check out this article from the Times in 1912:
    (Bonus, it’s about the Sox!)

    Kluv (SF) December 5, 2007, 6:34 pm
  • Game 1 Starter: Darin Erstad.

    QuoSF December 5, 2007, 6:42 pm
  • Game 1 starter: “Driven”, by Derek Jeter

    Atheose December 5, 2007, 6:44 pm
  • Game 1 starter: Rick Ankiel

    Devine December 5, 2007, 7:00 pm
  • Game 1 Starter: Spike Owen

    Nick-YF December 5, 2007, 7:04 pm
  • yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 7:05 pm
  • Game 1 starter in any cold-weather game: Scott Proctor. He’ll burn his kit to keep his teammates warm.

    attackgerbil December 5, 2007, 7:18 pm
  • > and it definitely looks like the Meetings will end without a Johan deal
    Gah. It feels like I just ponied up for flowers, dinner and a movie and didn’t even get kissed.

    attackgerbil December 5, 2007, 7:20 pm
  • Kind of amusing when you consider all the deadlines and “all but done” rumors that were flying rampant, dontcha think?

    yankeemonkey December 5, 2007, 7:27 pm
  • I guess the stew is boiled out..

    Lar December 5, 2007, 7:29 pm
  • grumble… this just means I will spend the next several weeks refreshing my screen every three minutes to see if anything has happened. Might as well quit to save the embarrassment of getting fired….

    soxgirl December 5, 2007, 7:51 pm
  • UPDATE, 12-5-07 at 7:50pm: Tim Brown says the Red Sox had a moment of doubt, but they remain the frontrunner for Santana. The previously mentioned packages apply.

    TJ December 5, 2007, 9:17 pm
  • Suggestion:
    Believe nothing but official announcements from teams. Stay off the internets. Spend time with your family. Watch classic movies. Go see the Golden Compass! Celebrate Channukah with your jewish pals.

    AndrewYF December 5, 2007, 9:18 pm
  • Game 1 starter: “Driven”, by Derek Jeter
    Laughed out loud at that one.

    Paul SF December 5, 2007, 9:28 pm
  • I find Tim Brown to be one of the worst reporters covering the game of baseball. Ive never found any of his pieces even mildly enlightening.

    sam-YF December 5, 2007, 9:49 pm
  • Wily Mo got a 2 year extension worth $7MM.

    TJ December 5, 2007, 9:50 pm
  • Good for Wily Mo… I genuinely want to see him succeed in Washington. I don’t know why but I always liked him.

    Atheose December 5, 2007, 10:28 pm
  • me too….

    TJ December 5, 2007, 10:54 pm
  • sam – Will Carrol and Pete Abraham have a strong tendency to be wrong all the time. They’re actually pretty reliable, as long as you take the opposite of what they say as the facts.

    AndrewYF December 5, 2007, 11:34 pm
  • Just got hoem from work. Snow got me out early! Whats the word, folks? Anythign to report?

    Dionysus December 5, 2007, 11:51 pm
  • Really andrew? I find Pete Abraham to be right typically when it comes to breaking stories. He actually seems to get caught up less in the rumor mongering than most.

    sam-YF December 5, 2007, 11:53 pm
    It’s basically an article about Joba giving back.. but what’s really interesting is that he’s signing the balls with his left hand in the pictures! Did people know this, or did I just catch it oddly?
    Also, he grew a goatee that probably will get shaved..

    Lar December 6, 2007, 12:34 am
  • ooh! Maybe the Hank and Cash regime will allow facial hair. I always found the cleanshaven thing to be a bit too big brother.
    but i’m a hippie.

    Carlos December 6, 2007, 2:00 am
  • The Dodgers throw $36 million at Andruw Jones for two years.
    HA HA!
    The best part is, Juan Pierre and his pop gun arm will move to a corner spot.

    doug YF December 6, 2007, 3:59 am
  • game one starter…clement….warming up in the bullpen gagne…no wait, a last minute callup…el guapo….hahahahaha…now that’s funny guys…

    dc December 6, 2007, 4:31 am
  • Joe Girardi will certainly not allow facial hair below the lip. He’s a stickler for that.

    AndrewYF December 6, 2007, 7:45 am
  • I was surprised too, but over 70% of Yankee fans at the Daily News site support keeping Hughes.
    “It was wrenching enough for the Yankees to even offer Phil Hughes to the Twins for Santana, and General Manager Brian Cashman was never too enthusiastic. Hank Steinbrenner, the senior vice president, said he had heard that fans were glad the Yankees pulled out of the Santana chase.
    “I don’t base what I do on other people’s opinions,” Steinbrenner said. “You can’t take opinion polls every day. But I’m really pleased at the fan reaction to keeping Hughes, and the fans do matter. Their opinion does matter.
    “They’re the ones that buy tickets and watch the YES Network. I like the way they get attached to homegrown Yankee players, just like the rest of us do in ownership and the front office. I was actually kind of surprised. But the fans seem to be in favor of keeping Hughes, and that’s a good thing.”

    Mike YF December 6, 2007, 9:08 am
  • “…I’m really pleased at the fan reaction to keeping Hughes, and the fans do matter. Their opinion does matter….”
    wow, no reaction to this so far…no, “way to go hank”, or “he’s not really sincere”, or “hank finally said something human, no rant”…of course, i’m finally getting it through my thick skull that we just can’t believe what he says, can we? :D ha, this is fun now…i’m sure if the twins came crawling back and said “ok we’ll trade santana for just hughes, sorry we broke your balls”, not gonna happen, but a trade clearly in the yanks favor, he’d still be clobbered for saying previously that he was out of the santana trade race…oh well, such is life when you wear a bullseye, and your primary opponent’s fanbase has such a deep-seated, if irrational, hate/fear of you, even after their team proved their recent superiority…

    dc December 6, 2007, 1:10 pm

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