The Yankees Are In The Emerald City!

Rumors today that we are trading for Cliff Lee??? Maybe for Vazquez??? No way.

Actually, the rumors are Lee to the Yankees for Montero and a player, and Werth to the Yankees for Vazquez. At which point, I’m officially getting ready for football because the insanity has just gone too far.

If that happens, I see no way any team in baseball can compete with NY. At that point, they have the best lineup and starting rotation hands down. Even great pitchers like Lester and Price will have a tough time getting through that collection- much less lesser guys. There will be no sense in even watching baseball unless you’re just hoping for a collapse, which ultimately, I don’t do.
I’ve been critical of NY for this shit in the past, but if these moves happen, I’m really just leaving it alone. It’s so fucking rediculous.

“At which point, I’m officially getting ready for football because the insanity has just gone too far.”
Seriously? From a fan of the team with the second highest payroll in baseball? The same team that paid $51.11M just to talk to Sgt. Gyroball? That’s very different than what the Yanks are doing here.
In any case, this would be a fantastic set of moves. The Yanks do their X-mas shopping in July, they lose no picks in a deep draft, and they prevent Lee from going to the Rays (who would be pretty sick with him). Losing Montero sucks, but the Yanks know better than anyone if he’ll catch. If they’ve determined he won’t, then the proper move is to deal him given their roster. DHs are a dime a dozen.
The funny thing about Brad’s complaint is that he’d also be complaining if they made these moves in free agency. Instead, they will have traded Melky, Vizcaino, Montero, and Adams for Cliff Lee and Jayson Werth. That’s exactly what that depth is for. And they’ll still have Romine at catcher (who should already be in AAA but is blocked by Montero).

Onley on ESPN is reporting that both of these deals could be done today, and that NY will keep Lee out of the series (thus ensuring that they don’t face him tonight).

“I’ve been critical of NY for this shit in the past, but if these moves happen, I’m really just leaving it alone. It’s so fucking rediculous.”
Wait, so they’re not allowed to spend their profits on the field and now they’re not allowed to trade prospects they’ve taken years to develop?
Where were your complains when the Sox gave Beckett and Lackey $175M this off-season? Or when they traded prospects for V-Mart? How may other teams in baseball could do both?

Rob, Give me a break, guy. If you think signing Lee is a good thing, then more power to you, but don’t pull the “2nd highest” bullshit when the difference is going to be nearly a hundred million dollars, man.
Also, I wasn’t on board with the 50M either, so give it a rest.
Listen, if you think the Yankees should add the best pitcher in baseball right now, when they’re already in first and running away, thats certainly your opinion, but don’t just discard the opposite because it makes just as much sense.
The bigger question here is what Lee is going to get? 5/130 is my guess.

And you’re right. The Sox did give Lackey and Beckett contracts, and rightfully so. Both make about the same as AJ Burnett. I’m not making this a $ thing, guy – I’m just saying that it’s not necessary on any level whatsoever. They’re going to pay twice to prevent the Rays or some other team from making it more competitive of a season?

And no, In free agency, they’d be replacing Pettitte or Javy, which they have to do, but what sense does it make to make this move now? Is this something NY needs? Nope.

“when the difference is going to be nearly a hundred million dollars, man.”
Ummm, no. Their 2011 payroll will be barely more than 2010. Remove Vazquez and Pettitte and Johnson, and that’s almost $30M. Lee will get $20M AAV. Werth will get $15M.
“Listen, if you think the Yankees should add the best pitcher in baseball right now”
For a few ill-fitting prospects? Why the hell not?
“I’m just saying that it’s not necessary on any level whatsoever.”
Sure it is. If the Rays got Lee, I don’t see how they’re not favorites in a 7 game series where they can throw him and Price five times. If the Twins got Lee, they’d be very dangerous in a 5 game series.

“what sense does it make to make this move now?”
a) They get the players for the stretch run and the playoffs
b) They don’t give up any draft picks
c) They move ill-fitting prospects to open slots up for better ones
d) They prevent their rivals from getting the same players
Moreover, you’re discounting your own club. They have the best offense in baseball even with all of their injuries. Sure, the home park helps, but that’s still pretty amazing given the season they’ve had.

I get frustration, I really do, but the anger would seem better placed on the owners/management of the other teams I think…
The Yankees money situation is what it is, so do you step up and compete or just give up? Do these other teams try their hardest to win? Is Theo handcuffed by the Sox owner? I mean, I’ve read quite a few things from SF’s (not necessarily on here) about how cheap that guy is?
I get it, I really do. I just love that ONE of my teams doesn everything to win, every year. The guy that owned the Twins had WAY more loot than George, just didn’t spend it on his team. After being in Minny a couple weeks ago, that is not a small market. Not even close. Buffalo is a small market. I think these owners use the Yankees as a scapegoat to keep their money. All the while bitching about the Yankees yet happily pocketing their luxury tax checks….

“I think these owners use the Yankees as a scapegoat to keep their money. All the while bitching about the Yankees yet happily pocketing their luxury tax checks….”
Exactly. The Sox included, of course. They cry poverty until they drop $175M on two pitchers. And of course they’re freeing up alot of money this off-season. Think they’ll spend it all?

Ummm, no. Their 2011 payroll will be …
This is a gross overstatement.
At the end of this year (as of now), the Yankees are committed to 140.1 M dollars to players.
That’s without signing Lee, Mariano, Jeter, all of whom are not taking any sort of Paycut. Mariano, however, will probably go year to year with them, to be fair.
Think Hughes and Joba are gonna make the same 400K next year? How about Gardner?
So, assume Lee gets 23M (CC’s Salary – because lets be real, he isn’t taking less), Jeter gets his normal 20, which you know he will, and Mo gets his normal 12-14M. That’s put them at around 200M.
Now – the following players have not been accounted for on that list:
Marte
Brackman
Hughes
Joba
Park
Thames
Mitre
Gaudin
Logan
Miranda
Gardner
Aceves
Robertson.
I’m not even considering Werth. That probably puts them at about 235M.
The Red Sox:
Committed to 90M
This does not include options for Bill Hall and David Ortiz (which add up to 21M)
Pap will get his 10 in arbitration again, so that puts them at ~100M
Guys making the min:
Hermida
Oki
Ramirez
Delcarmen
Cash
Jacoby
Lowrie
Bard
Atchinson
So, assume all that adds up to the same 30M as NY.
Before signing anyone, if the Yankee move goes through, the difference is ~100M.
Of course, it won’t stay that way becuase the Sox will have to sign a catcher and probably pick up Ortiz’ option, which will probably add 20M to this.
So yeah, it’s not the same. So while I’m not really harping on the payroll issue, I do take offense to the “2nd highest payroll” tirade.

They cry poverty until they drop $175M on two pitchers..
Add another 5M, and you have one Yankee first baseman. You guys crack me up. Yeah, it’s everyone else in baseball. Not the Yankees.

But what are they doing wrong Brad? Are they somehow breaking the rules? Are they responsible for the the lack of a cap or is it the MLBPA?
Again, I get the frustration but the anger seems misplaced. Again, is your ownership doing everything they can to win? If not, wouldn’t that be where your anger should be directed?

Right, like when the Sox couldn’t afford Abreu. Sure. The Yankees are a convenient excuse. Now when they use prospects, SFs still find a reason to bitch.
“Add another 5M, and you have one Yankee first baseman. ”
One the Sox could have easily afforded themselves if their owner hadn’t thrown a hissy fit at the expectation of market value. How much are they paying Lugo and Lowell this year? That alone matches Tex’s salary.
“Before signing anyone, if the Yankee move goes through, the difference is ~100M.”
You and I both know that’s bullshit, especially since if the Sox have a $130M payroll in 2011, your problem should certainly not be with the Yankees.
But your figures are off. The Sox have 100M committed to 2011 right now.

“Again, is your ownership doing everything they can to win? If not, wouldn’t that be where your anger should be directed?”
Bingo.

But your figures are off. The Sox have 100M committed to 2011 right now.
No, they don’t.
Lackey: 15.25
Beckett: 17.75
Lester: 5.75
Drew: 14
Youkilis: 12
DiceK: 10
Cameron: 7.25
Scutaro: 5
Pedroia: 5.5
Wakefield 1.5
Tazawa: 0.5
Thats: 94
And yes, I do believe the Red Sox are doing everything they can to win every year. I don’t begrudge them for not trying to spend 220M dollars every year. I side with every other team in baseball on this one. Yankee fans whould LOVE to imagine that everyone can do what they can, but in reality, they absolutely cannot. Maybe on a short term basis, the Sox or Twins could go out and spend that kind of money, but it won’t hold water in the long run, and everyone knows that. The Sox and other teams simply do not make the money the Yankees do, and I’m not begrudging that at all. Kudos to the Yankees for putting it back on the field, but like now, its not fucking necessary.

Right, like when the Sox couldn’t afford Abreu.
That was never about money. They asked for bullshit pieces from NY and top prospects from Boston.

They asked for bs pieces from the Yanks because NY was willing to pay more. The prospect package was based on money spent.

Per Cot’s, you’re missing a few.
“That was never about money. They asked for bullshit pieces from NY and top prospects from Boston.”
Ah red-colored glasses again. The Sox weren’t going to take on all of his money. Ergo, the Phillies wanted better prospects.
As for your tirade, I’m very happy to love a team as much as the owners do. Unfortunately for you, the Sox place their profits ahead of their winning as Tex and Abreu show.

Arguing about payroll is stupid at this point, and not what I’m trying to do at all. I just don’t think this is a necessary move for the Yankees right now. 3 all star pitchers (4 if you count hughes’ first month, which carried him) on one staff? For a player already in first place?
Listen: Kudos. And, congrats on your back to back championship a little early. When this happens, there is not other team that can compete as currently constructed.

Whoops, I forgot A-Rod too. How many player acquisitions have they utterly squandered because of pennies on the dollar? And we know now that they could have easily afford all of Abreu, Tex, and A-Rod. That they didn’t find a way to should be your real anger.

So, they didn’t get ARod or Abreu, and went on to win 2 Championships. Color it okay with me.
The union “squandered” the ARod deal – all parties involved were fine with the backloading.
Also, stop being a dick. I’m not being one – you have utterly no fucking idea what the Red Sox choose or do not choose to fucking spend money on or how much money they have. Red Colored glasses aside – I have no idea how much money the Red Sox make or how much they’re willing to spend.
Again, enjoy the championship run, man. It should be fun, right?
When this happens, there is absolutely no way they don’t win. Why worry about arguing about he small stuff?

Unfortunately for you, the Sox place their profits ahead of their winning as Tex and Abreu show.
How do you know this? Because they didn’t feel the value was there? Tex was NEVER going to Boston to begin with, as has said as much after the fact. How do you know what the profit v. payroll numbers are for Boston – or any team?

” I just don’t think this is a necessary move for the Yankees right now. ”
And yet I’ve suggested four reasons why it was reasonable. RAB adds a fifth: The chance the Yanks also get another piece in return.
“When this happens, there is not other team that can compete as currently constructed.”
Keep telling yourself that. But the Sox and Rays are certainly good enough to win a series against the Yanks. They both have the pitching and offense.

I’m really not trying to argue with either of you. Really. I just found it unneeded, and you guys felt the need to climb down the payroll and what teams are or are not willing to do. You’re probably right – Boston will probably stand by and watch this, which I’m fine with. I’d rather they go that route at this point because I think the injuries have ruined any chance at this year, which now in hindsight wouldn’t have mattered anyhow. Let’s just agree to disagree on this one.
Again, I congratulate you. It should be exciting steamrolling every other team in baseball for the next four months. It’s gonna be like the Dream Team with Jordan and Bird rolling on Peru back in the day.:)

“I’m not being one”
Really?
” you have utterly no fucking idea what the Red Sox choose or do not choose to fucking spend money on or how much money they have. ”
Sure I do. Their current payroll. They can support $170M or else they wouldn’t. That much is clear.
Better: Do the Math. The Sox sell out every game. 40k seats x $50 average price = $200 million. And that’s before national or NESN TV money. Or advertising.
The Sox think they can compete and turn a hefty profit. And they do both.

That’s theoretical math, Rob. Neither of us know how much it takes to run a baseball team – the Red Sox, I’m sure, aren’t in the business of losing games or money. I’m sure that they can support a short-term high dollar payroll, but long-term – I have no idea. I don’t think for a second the Red Sox have a problem supporting 170. But the difference between 170, and 210+ is a huge one. It’s 3 All stars. It’s a lot of money man.

And no, I don’t think the Sox or Rays, or any team, can compete with this Yankee team with Werth and Lee.
Especially in the current state of the Sox, who are likely to be 10-15 games back by the end of July. There is no one move that would help the Sox keep pace right now. They’re just missing too much.
Again, I’m offering Kudos to you. If you feel that the Yankees needed this, then fine. But, in the end, you know as well as I do that Lee was going to NY in December anyhow, so paying twice for marginal prospects (it’s amazing that Monetero is now a fringe piece after four years of hearing how absolutely awesome he is) is not needed for a team already in first, and likely to stay that way for the next two years.
Maybe now, I’ll be able to get some stuff done around my house. haha.

But see, that’s my point. If they can support $170M this year, why aren’t they doing it every year? That includes 2004 (A-Rod), 2005 (Abreu), and 2009 (Tex). We got a BS reason (and a few tirades from Lucky Larry) for why they didn’t pay a few more pennies on the dollar for those players. Now we know it was BS.
You would agree that it is more expensive to run a business in NYC than in Boston, right? And for each dollar the Yankees spend above the Sox they’re giving 40% back to other teams. It’s hardly unfair.
The other problem for your argument is the Yankees have lost to the Sox, including a Serious (2007) and a playoff spot (2008), when the payroll discrepancies were that large.

I just want the Yankees to win. Getting Lee makes that easier. Whether needed or not is not the point. Whether we win another one, well that’s why they play the games. Anything can happen.
As a fan of another team, I get your frustration. I am the king of rants so I also understand puking out feelings on this message board as a release of sorts. In the spirit of friendship and humanity, I am going to let you vent and not make it worse.

“They’re just missing too much.”
That’s poor roster construction though. They’re paying $20 million to Lugo and Lowell. Still, even with all of the injuries, they have the best offense in baseball.
Montero isn’t a fringe piece. But for the Yankees, he’s just a bad fit and they have a better one. It hurts to lose his impact bat. But I understand the thought process.

I promise you – the Yanks win it all in a landslide, Rob.
No, I have no idea what the cost differences are between Boston and NY prices with re: to running a business. And as far as the payroll taxes, that’s a choice the Yankees choose to partake in. They don’t have to run that payroll that high and take that “unfair” penalty. They certainly have the ability to not pay that tax, as does every other team in baseball. No team can complain about the tax in one breath and agree to take the penalty by continually adding all-star players with the next.
And yes, I do realize Boston has had some success in the past few years.

Come on, Rob.
They’re currently missing
Beckett
Varitek
Martinez
Pedroia
Buchholz
Ellsbury
Hermida
That’s not poor roster construction in any sense of the statement. No team can plan for, or play through, that kind of hit. What exactly should the Red Sox have planned for to offset this kind of hit, man?

Just what exactly should the Red Sox have done with Lowell this year, since you’re loving to bring that up? They were going to pay him no matter what this year. You’re essentially saying that they could have predicted that he would break down after his world series MVP run, right? Or should they have given him away and paid him regardless?
And how would either player help this team right now?
You really sound like another guy I used to argue with on this site now

And yes, I do realize Boston has had some success in the past few years…regardless of the payroll differences.
There, fixed that for you.
You’re not understanding me otherwise. The Sox will have paid out $20 million to two players not on the team. So realistically they could compete with $150M payroll or they could have allocated that money better. Heck, between Beltre, Lowell, and Lugo ($30M) they could have easily afforded to overpay for for Tex. And I think Tex was all the difference last year between the two teams.
“What exactly should the Red Sox have planned for to offset this kind of hit, man?”
Now you’re arguing against yourself. Given a healthy team, I see no reason they can’t compete against the Yankees with Lee and Werth. Even still, with all that has happened, the Sox are three back of a playoff spot. Don’t you think their payroll has something to do with that? How fair is that to the rest of the league? After all, the difference between the Sox and Yanks is smaller than the difference between the Sox and the 3rd highest payroll in the AL.
You’re venting, Brad. I get that. But at least be honest.

Even still, with all that has happened, the Sox are three back of a playoff spot.
No, since Pedroia, V-Mart, Tek, Buchholz got hurt the Sox have gone from 1 back in the LC to 5 back in the LC. The Sox had as good a record as they did because of payroll (they could weather the Ellsbury, Beckett and Cameron losses to an extent due to resources, no doubt), but it is premature to judge the impact of the most recent injuries. In another month we might be able to judge that better. But if, in a month, they are still in the thick of it, it will be due to massive overachievement by guys who have never been contributors, who are making the minimum, not because of massive payroll. Or, it could be by virtue of trades for established players, and that, for sure, would be attributable to the team’s wealth.
The jury is still out on if the Sox can stay competitive fielding this current squad. Though the jury doesn’t have a very tough case, to me.

They’re three games back of the Wild Card today.

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